| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Razz |
Posted - 07 Nov 2008 : 01:48:06
Yes the title is a little play with words, sue me. 
Ok, to my topic now, I first want to present that I am in no way insulting the people here that have fully moved on with 4e D&D/Forgotten Realms and/or like the new edition/Forgotten Realms. I just want to make clear my current feelings on the matter and am wondering the feelings of everyone else at this point in time.
Personally, I cannot take any discussion about 4E Realms seriously. In other words, I can't swallow any of it as "official lore".
But it's published and written by WotC, even Ed's on the team, what could you mean? is possibly the biggest question for that statement.
What I mean is this: I can't take any of the 4E Realms lore seriously because it was geared towards fitting the 4th Edition system wholly into the Forgotten Realms with little to no care for whether the setting will explode from all the shoveling (or just profusely leak a ghastly amount of fluid). It's not what many envisioned, expected, or even wanted. It really feels to me that there truly is TWO Forgotten Realms settings.
1) The currently established Realms created for the sake of 4th Edition.
2) The Forgotten Realms that could've (or some would say, should've) been had it stayed with 3rd Edition.
So much lore and details we have lost to 4th Edition that will never see the light of day in the Forgotten Realms. The continents of Anchorome and Katashaka, the continent of Ossa, an updated regional book to the Old Empires, a Kara-Tur Campaign Setting, the Realm of Faerie, an updated Maztica, to even the mechanics like the lifedrain spell, prestige classes for more faiths of the Realms, ancient psionics and treasures of Jhaamdath, updated and new creatures to the Realms, and so much more. Forever gone are the stories and knowledge we could've accumulated that so many have yearned to see brought to life!
I feel there's a Forgotten Realms setting that should've been. A setting that didn't suffer the Spellplague, that continued its course and remained purely and truly consistent. All consistency, to me, is gone thanks to 4th Edition and I feel 4E Realms is NOT Abeir-Toril but simple just wholly "Abeir". (or to the strictly conservative, as someone at Candlekeep quoted I believe, an "Abeirration").
It saddens me to see such notable sages here make attempts to mingle 4E lore with pre-4E lore to make sense of the setting and to remain as consistent as possible. But I truly believe it shouldn't even be attempted. Let the "reset" button truly be pressed and consider 1385 D.R. the Year 0 for the Forgotten Realms if 4E is where you choose to stay and let 1385 D.R. be the year the world of Toril ends in 3rd Edition...or, of course, continues in your own game beyond.
But kudos to those that try. I know it's painful for some, mind-boggling to others, and somewhat fun for the few, but to me I feel 4E Realms should receive the "separate but equal" treatment.
I'd love to hear from others, especially Ed, what the Realms could've been had it stayed on course with 3E. Can NDAs be broken still despite the obvious lore and edition change? I don't see how it can have any effect on anything with 4E Realms, from my perspective that is. I could be wrong.
But am I the only one that feels this way? Who here has moved on, who here feels or understands what I am saying, and who here is still in total grief?
I conclude with a sincere question: What is going on with the non-Spellplague Forgotten Realms beyond 1385?  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ionik Knight |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 16:47:05
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
Have the first three adventures and the recurring NPCs fleshed out, now I just have to come up with...a prophecy to build the whole campaign around 
I could give you a prophecy I made up... But it was for one of my Hooks, so even though I came up with it, I don't know what it means. 
What's worse is I have to make the original version (to be revealed half-way through), the evil version (partially why the Paladin is falling from grace), and the snippet version (the first bit the party learns from the Tribe of the White Wyrm).
Ionik Knight |
| Ionik Knight |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 16:42:06
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
I'll be bringing them into Faerun from Earth via Stonehenge (as a way to keep the OOC speech of a 7 and 9 year old IC).
Using one of the forgotten portals between Earth and the Realms, eh?
I love Stonehenge, it's like this cosmic rubik's cubepuzzle boxswiss army knife; there's bound to be an extra-solar alignment somewhere that makes it work for a gate\battery\radio. In this case GHotR 1373 Mapenoth 26, the rogue Tear of Selune.
All this just to make casual references to Naruto and Bakugon completely In Character.
Ionik Knight |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 15:18:29
quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
Have the first three adventures and the recurring NPCs fleshed out, now I just have to come up with...a prophecy to build the whole campaign around
I could give you a prophecy I made up... But it was for one of my Hooks, so even though I came up with it, I don't know what it means. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 14:17:49
quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
I'll be bringing them into Faerun from Earth via Stonehenge (as a way to keep the OOC speech of a 7 and 9 year old IC).
Using one of the forgotten portals between Earth and the Realms, eh? |
| Ionik Knight |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 13:00:37
Greetings and Salutations,
I am returning to D&D after a long hiatus. I have not examined the 4ed Rules yet, but I have examined the 4ed Realms setting...no way. I will rewind the realm to 1373 and create my own timeline from there. My campaign will be designed to introduce my two sons to D&D and the Realms, so I will keep the Realms I like and ignore the new iteration. I'll be bringing them into Faerun from Earth via Stonehenge (as a way to keep the OOC speech of a 7 and 9 year old IC). From there they will have to escape one of the Paladin leaders of Impiltur (in the process of falling), and make their way across the Realms to discover their DESTINY!
Have the first three adventures and the recurring NPCs fleshed out, now I just have to come up with...a prophecy to build the whole campaign around |
| Stonwulfe |
Posted - 13 Dec 2008 : 19:32:43
quote:
My first thought was Eberron's Traveller. I *LOVE* the god in that setting because it's technically one of the Dark Six (i.e. evil god), but it's alignment is chaotic neutral, where every other of the Dark Six is evil. So, of course, I'm instantly attracted to my characters being followers of it. And the description sounds more like Coyote in Native American mythos than anything else.
That's exactly who he/she/it is. The trickster god who inspired the creation of warforged, but whose dark legacy is the psiforged taint of The First. Everywhere the Traveller goes he grants gifts, but like a Monkey's Paw you have to be wary of strangers bearing gifts.
The people of the once-Jhaamdath missed the glory of their long ago past. The Traveller has restored it. But at what cost?
Oh, and another change is that in my FR, the Lady of Blades gives "birth" to a fully-formed daughter who appears to be twelve years of age, whom she leaves to mind Sigil and its residents. She names her daughter "The Sidaewede" (Sael-do-veede), which in an ancient dialect means "Daughter of Winter". The Lady then disappears into the many planes but appears twice in Faerun.
In her most notable of two appearances (the other being to snatch a book from the Holdfast) she razes Baldur's Gate, leaving not a single person alive within ten kilometers, and not a building standing. The Sages of Candlekeep whisper that a bard in the city learned her true name from a book in the Holdfast and wove it into a song. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 13 Dec 2008 : 19:15:35
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
(If you still can, Stonwulfe, rename The Traveller with something more stylish please. I instantly had an image of his namesake of Star Trek (Next Generation) in mind ...
Interesting, I had forgotten all about him.
My first thought was Eberron's Traveller. I *LOVE* the god in that setting because it's technically one of the Dark Six (i.e. evil god), but it's alignment is chaotic neutral, where every other of the Dark Six is evil. So, of course, I'm instantly attracted to my characters being followers of it. And the description sounds more like Coyote in Native American mythos than anything else. |
| GRYPHON |
Posted - 13 Dec 2008 : 13:47:10
Nicely done, Stonwulfe. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 13 Dec 2008 : 09:42:10
(If you still can, Stonwulfe, rename The Traveller with something more stylish please. I instantly had an image of his namesake of Star Trek (Next Generation) in mind ...
BTW, in any case, I'll stick to the rules as offered in F&A with regards to gods/powers allowing or disallowing entry to their Realms and ANY god has actually to ask before being granted entry at all. So whatever Cyric and Shar are up to, they won't get anywhere near to Mystra in "my" Realms. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 12 Dec 2008 : 21:58:38
I like some of your ideas there. Even though at first I hated that they killed Mystra, I've realized that it wasn't the act that bothered me, but the reason behind it.
I'm running a campaign right now where I'm having the players stop the Spellplague, but I'm considering having Mystra still die, but her power and portfolios return to her 'mother' Selûne. |
| Stonwulfe |
Posted - 12 Dec 2008 : 21:38:13
Thanks, Rinonalyrna. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 12 Dec 2008 : 21:01:07
Welcome back Stonwulfe. |
| Stonwulfe |
Posted - 12 Dec 2008 : 17:16:47
Good day to all,
Well, this will be my first post in nearly a year. I left off just before completing my thorough review of the 4e DMG and MM, and have spent the last eight months with my time firmly divided between University, employment, and resisting the urge to pimp-smack the next person who says "Why don't you get some sleep?" In this time I have had the opportunity to review 4th Edition Forgotten Realms, and... I'm not impressed.
I will purchase the book so that I may nit and pick at what things I can pretty clearly see Ed contributed, and I will attempt to hold those things for my own use, but I am heretofore abandoning 4th Edition Forgotten Realms. I do no, and will not, accept the canon - for a number of reasons that several here have articulated quite adequately, and for a host of reasons I won't get into.
I shall suffice it to say that I disagree that the great, well-rounded, worldly knowledge of the Realms built up over the last 30+ years was "forced into the square hole of 4e". This is a non sequitur. There is absolutely no reason why the fourth-edition rules couldn't have been introduced into the Forgotten realms as a series of staggered changes over a continuum, with some of the greater effects becoming known differently in the Forgotten Realms than in different settings. This is how I will continue in my own game. I believe that the Forgotten Realms is worthy of being saved, and I simultaneously believe that the Fourth Edition system has merit.
In my own game I will be introducing the changes from 4th Edition as a series of staggered changes over time, as follows:
1. Cormyr - with the aid of several notable NPCs - begin to turn the tide in the war with the Shades. The Shades, in return, open gates to other planes and haul the Dragonborn in as shock troops to hurl as fodder at the assembled armies. Somewhere in the midst of the conflict the mental control of the Shades is thrown off and the Dragonborn realize the valour and honour of the defenders, in particular being drawn to the standards of Helm, Tyr, and Tempus. A Dragonborn commander raises the fallen standard of Helm from the grip of a dead paladin, takes the Paladin's sword (having lost his own) and turns on the Shades. All the Dragonborn assemble on him, and the Shade advance is utterly smashed along the Stormhorns. The remustered armies push the Shades back as far as Anauroch, where their spells become too strong to resist. A stalemate is draw, but the Shades end up taking Sembia as a colony.
2. The Elves, in their war with the Drow and in defense of Evermeet and the Dales, devise a great High Magic rite comparable with that which split Evermeet from the mainland and they use it. Only the effect of the spell is not to be used as a weapon against the Drow, but as an amplifier of their own inherent gods-granted traits. The High Magic splits the Elven races on Toril, dividing them and tying them together in greater community, enhancing the natural traits which they naturally espoused. The High Elves become more magical, more detached from the world, and closer to that of Faerie (regaining access to other realms in the process, and returning their Lycanthropic cousins to the Realms). The Moon Elves become more human like, and more robust. The Wood Elves and Wild Elves' attachment to nature grows, but so does the expression of their magic, giving them access to a greater range of non-nature-based magics. With their natural proclivities refined, and with several of the Elven subspecies reproductive cycles being increased and lifespans somewhat shortened, they begin to outnumber and outmatch the Drow as never before and the Drow are forced back into the Underdark... and further. The Elves open gates into the Grey Wastes and push the majority of the Drow force in.
3. At some point while the next hundred years or so of internecine warfare is going on with the Elves, Obould is building his nation, and the Orcs begin to show signs of vastly increasing civility. Obould establishes a University (although somewhat different from what we consider a University) and invites foreign scholars and sages to come teach, as well as warlords, and magic-hurlers.
4. Mystra dies, but not in the Weave-Shattering apocalypse that WotC described. (Because, well, she's died before and nothing nearly half as bad as the Spellplague happened; magic just stopped working.) Instead, Oghma and Savras see what is coming and advise Mystra to abdicate power, returning to near-Mortal status (something comparable to where Elminster is - still human, but so changed by knowledge of Magic that he's not ever really going to be human). Mystra sets a trap for Cyric and Shar. She takes the greatest majority of her power and divides it between eight chosen wizards of great age and wisdom. She raises them to divinity and gifts a different aspect of magic to each. They become immortal demigods, tied to the realm and to magic. With her remaining power she casts a spell that for each blow Cyric and Shar strike against her, divided portions of each will be delivered unto their faithful and she walks into the ambush. In killing her, Cyric and Shar and blasted from Godhood (being absent of surviving mortal supporters) and Velsharoon takes the mantle of their power to prevent a power vacuum.
5. While what is occurring with the gods, Ao is silent. However, out of seemingly nowhere, an extra-planar being known as the Traveller comes to the Realm, and people around the region of fallen Jhaamdath start developing psychic powers as never seen before. As soon as he arrived, the Traveller vanishes, leaving only the awakened minds of those he encountered. Those empowered people begin to form a hierarchical society and begin to worship the Traveller as a god. The Traveller never returns, but among his psychic faithful clerics begin to emerge.
There's more, but this is the "gist" of it.
Stonwulfe |
| Zanan |
Posted - 28 Nov 2008 : 23:22:08
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
Do you have a link?
I do ... http://www.feder-und-schwert.com/news.php?id=138 |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Nov 2008 : 12:24:15
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Well, the German publisher of 4E, D&D and thus FR stuff has cut ties with WotC/Hasbro and won't publish any games material from January 1st 2009 ... as was reported today. Well well ... do they know something we don't (as yet)?
It's suggestive, but I doubt it's really meaningful. |
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 28 Nov 2008 : 06:06:55
Do you have a link? |
| Zanan |
Posted - 27 Nov 2008 : 16:50:19
Well, the German publisher of 4E, D&D and thus FR stuff has cut ties with WotC/Hasbro and won't publish any games material from January 1st 2009 ... as was reported today. Well well ... do they know something we don't (as yet)? |
| StarBog |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 11:24:20
re. Tolkien - he had a term for all his tantalising glimpses of lore - "Unexplored Vistas" |
| Faraer |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 17:20:24
Good Realmslore is full -- bounteous, fertile, it's hard to stress this enough -- of mysterious references and names without thorough printed (or readily accessible) biographies -- often to characters and events every bit as 'important' (in historical, ethical, or potential narrative terms) as the ones who've been lucky enough to get spotlighted. Good world-building is far from 1980s US prime-time TV where everything must be transparently obvious second by second.
By the Realms' standards, the FRCG does it far too thinly. I certainly don't think mentioning Alustriel is bad for new players, but the number of these allusions to well-known excised elements does seem notable given the new setting's mission statements and one has to guess in part it's a bone thrown to veterans, and I'm sure it works for some.
Let's stay on the Tolkien comparison. The Realms' appeal has been built not just on its own Hobbits and Lords of the Rings but on its Appendices A to H. Except I to P have also been written, Q to Z exist in concept, and the only company who can publish them refuses to. That is, within the scale of these things, a huge damn crying artistic shame. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 15:16:13
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
What WotC has published so far is LOADS of references to old stuff (like mentioning Alustriel when she is long dead and not explaining why she is important ... really bad for new players who have zero idea).
I don’t see how this is really bad for new players. If they don’t know who she is, where’s the problem?
It’s kind of like how they major NPCs were first introduced in the old Gray Box. Not knowing the significance of Elminster and the Chosen didn’t exactly hinder DMs back then. Why should it now?
Elements like these appear to be written for players already in the know. For those that don’t the information serves as adventure hooks. It's up to DMs now to fill use the information however they want, should they choose to.
I agree with Mr. M here. Just take a look at Tolkien's mentioning of tons of history and personages in the pages of The Hobbit and LotR without giving a detailed history on them in the book. Just added to the depth of the world and made seeking out further information on them a business unto itself.
I might not like what they did to the Realms, but by using the old lore like they did does add that element of 'mystery' to intrigue the new players. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 15:09:46
quote:
Originally posted by Misery
I'd bet money the first decently in depth look into the realms will be seen whenever they market their next Neverwinter Nights/Baldur's Gate game.
Who is "they"? WotC licenses out their IPs to game developers, but they aren't the ones actually making the FR games. |
| StarBog |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 14:05:43
quote:
I got to get used to Novels and the Living Realms being my sources for Realms Lore now.
Well, don't get your expectations up too greatly on that score. The LFR mods, whilst ostensibly on the surface are Faerun-ified, as it were, are deliberately light on the lore (this is explicitly instructed in the Writer's Guidelines). Think of them (as I do) as DnD one-shots which happen to be set in a world similar to the Realms with the occasional hat-tip towards the Lore.
|
| Mr_Miscellany |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 07:40:19
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
What WotC has published so far is LOADS of references to old stuff (like mentioning Alustriel when she is long dead and not explaining why she is important ... really bad for new players who have zero idea).
I don’t see how this is really bad for new players. If they don’t know who she is, where’s the problem?
It’s kind of like how they major NPCs were first introduced in the old Gray Box. Not knowing the significance of Elminster and the Chosen didn’t exactly hinder DMs back then. Why should it now?
Elements like these appear to be written for players already in the know. For those that don’t the information serves as adventure hooks. It's up to DMs now to fill use the information however they want, should they choose to.
As for Razz's opening post: Are we certain beyond all doubt that what you say is lost has actually been lost?
I didn’t get that feeling after reading the FR Campaign Guide. |
| Pandora |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 19:53:29
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-Hence the simplification of the Realms. Just imagine what would have happened if there was no 100 year time jump. Thats why the setting was reset. See the FRCG gives just enough info to run A Living Realms Game. Combine it with DDI, and the other products that WotC will be releasing later on (Core Products that is) and you can run a Living Realms Game. I personaly don't like the set up but it's what we got now.
BRIMSTONE 
They didnt really do a simplification of the Realms and it clearly wasnt a reset, because with a reset you would start with a clean sheet of paper and the landscape of the world. What WotC has published so far is LOADS of references to old stuff (like mentioning Alustriel when she is long dead and not explaining why she is important ... really bad for new players who have zero idea). It would have been MUCH easier to swallow if it had been a real reset, because eventually people would have gotten over it, but the current state of "a thousand illogical things remain unexplained" is inacceptable and at the rate of new FR lore coming out it will not be over by the time the 6th edition comes out. |
| Misery |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 09:59:51
I'd bet money the first decently in depth look into the realms will be seen whenever they market their next Neverwinter Nights/Baldur's Gate game.
... actually there were 2 Neverwinter Nights and 2 Baldur's Gates so maybe it'll be a whole new title BUT the general statement stands.
And luckily for WotC, those things are always considered correct lore OR canon.
... so maybe as the novels start coming out they'll detail stuff? Ah well, I'm a little out of my league here as I don't really care what they think to say about the 4e realms, but just thought I'd make the comment as I see it being truth. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 00:31:25
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What they don't realize is that if you make something too vague, then folks may as well make up their OWN vague worlds and not waste their money on the setting offered.
-Make up vague worlds? No...Make up very, very, veryveryveryveryveryveryvery detailed worlds. That's good. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 00:27:15
-I have to agree with you Dalor. Wizards is attaching their star to DDI, if it works well that remains to be seen. My contributing to this thread is over. Thank you and have a nice day.
BRIMSTONE |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 23:00:31
I think you have something there Hawkins...
Here is the problem WotC has right now: they want everyone to buy their new setting...but they are making it vague enough to give themselves lots of options.
What they don't realize is that if you make something too vague, then folks may as well make up their OWN vague worlds and not waste their money on the setting offered.
Sure, some of us (myself included) bought the New Realms out of various reasons. Mine was to have it and play in it; though I won't run a campaign in it most likely. BUT...I don't think they will have nearly the profit from the setting than they have had in the past. That, to me, is not an improvement for the black ink in the ol' book. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 20:24:32
Considering that what draws me to the Realms is its being "lore-rich," then if it continues to be "lore-lite" I do not see myself warming up to WotC's version of the Realms anytime soon. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 19:20:01
Depends - they seem to be doing things with a 'lore-light' approach. Very few specifics and grand generalizations. I'm not saying thats good or bad; I'm simply stating that that's the way I'm seeing it.
Even when it comes to the adventures - unless it's FR-specific they don't seem to want to provide WE's for use within a setting. They did so for the first one (shadowfel Keep?), and that kind-of didn't go over well, because lots of folks decided to put it somewhere else. So now they refrain from telling us where stuff should go - true, I'm talking about Core adventures here, but I see some of that with the Realmslore as well. They don't seem to want to nail anything down with specifics - like, say, telling us a certain citadel can be found within the borders of a certain country "within the mountains", or "in the north", but that's about as far as it goes.
Having just mapped a section of 4e Toril, I can tell you it's like pulling teeth trying to figure out where stuff specifically is. 
If they keep up that approach, then the lore won't get too heavy for them, becaue its not specific-enough to back them into any corners. Also, they aren't creating any high-level 'good guys', which was another MAJOR reason for nuking the old stuff.
Like I said - I'm offering no opinion on this one, just stating things the way I see it. To be honest, I don't think I even have an opinion on it - it has its ups and downs, so whatever. |
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