T O P I C R E V I E W |
Chataro |
Posted - 20 Sep 2008 : 14:22:30 This is going to be rude and gonna be awkward if Mr Salvatore sees this. Especially since I am one of his fan. I read all of his books, even the nightbird series and cleric quintet. But I was just thinking.....
What on earth is Mr Salvatore thinking? In the Orc king, he writes that the orc has civilized and is trying to live in peace. I'm not going to say how impossible it is that a barren land is able to satisfy all the traditionally blood thirsty orcs and let them settle in peace and let them forget about their grudges. That would be old hat, what I am trying to ask about all your opinion is........
Civilizing Orcs? Remember what happen when Salvatore tried to civilise the barbarians? They left in less than ten years time. Drizzt claimed that their way of life is better for them. Now apparently the same thing is happening, Orcs lifestyle is better now.
Isn't that quite a slap in the face to the barbarians. Seem to imply that they are less civilised than orcs. How much longer before the silver marches start thinking that the orcs would have a better life reverting back to their old ways? Thinking, mind you, not actually going back |
30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
Jakk |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 10:33:55 quote: Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Drizzt is delusional? I think you're all forgetting the inevitable.
We all know that at the end of the Drizzt series Salvatore will cut to a scene with Zaknafien sitting straight up in his bed after spending the night with Malice and saying: "GAH! What a horrible nightmare...I dreamt I had a son with a serious savior complex who palled around with dwarves and made a pact with an orc king...."
And then Jarlaxle will roll over and say: "What was that, honey?"
:D
*sits...waits for ban....*
   Okay... that was hilarious. Let's hope it gets seriously considered by RAS. Actually, it would also be an easy Sellplague reset too... rewind the Realms to the year of Drizzt's birth...  |
Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 04:58:45 quote: Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Drizzt is delusional? I think you're all forgetting the inevitable.
We all know that at the end of the Drizzt series Salvatore will cut to a scene with Zaknafien sitting straight up in his bed after spending the night with Malice and saying: "GAH! What a horrible nightmare...I dreamt I had a son with a serious savior complex who palled around with dwarves and made a pact with an orc king...."
And then Jarlaxle will roll over and say: "What was that, honey?"
:D
*sits...waits for ban....*
And upon that day, fangirls of that pair will squee in joy 
Thank you for the laugh  |
BEAST |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 01:31:42 quote: Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Actually, I don't recall the the text saying that the female orc was a "princess".
Actually, you're quite right. 
My other points still stand, though. RAS still said plenty about how the Kingdom of Many-Arrows ain't so hot in the future, after all. |
The Sage |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 01:07:30 quote: Originally posted by Ardashir
quote: Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
More fun than the level of fighter would be the level of bard. 
Egil Skallagrimsson? Is that you? 
Hmm, didn't the 3rd ed Races of Faerun book have a prestige class that was basically a sort of Viking skald? A barbarian/bard crossover?
Yes -- the "Warrior Skald." |
Ardashir |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 19:15:35 quote: Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
More fun than the level of fighter would be the level of bard. 
Egil Skallagrimsson? Is that you? 
Hmm, didn't the 3rd ed Races of Faerun book have a prestige class that was basically a sort of Viking skald? A barbarian/bard crossover? |
Arion Elenim |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 05:30:08 Meh, I have my moments. Of course, they're few and far between. :) |
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 23:42:38 quote: Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Drizzt is delusional? I think you're all forgetting the inevitable.
We all know that at the end of the Drizzt series Salvatore will cut to a scene with Zaknafien sitting straight up in his bed after spending the night with Malice and saying: "GAH! What a horrible nightmare...I dreamt I had a son with a serious savior complex who palled around with dwarves and made a pact with an orc king...."
And then Jarlaxle will roll over and say: "What was that, honey?"
:D
*sits...waits for ban....*
That was funny. |
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 23:37:33 quote: Originally posted by BEAST Notice that the discussion in the Pro. of the pending wedding between an orc and a human involves a princess and the king, rather than some orc commoner.
Actually, I don't recall the the text saying that the female orc was a "princess". |
Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 23:31:22 If bad jokes were a bannable offense, then I'd've been banned three times over, at least.  |
Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 23:17:06 LOL Arion! LOL! if you're banned for that, well... the joke was worth it!  |
Arion Elenim |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 22:05:26 Drizzt is delusional? I think you're all forgetting the inevitable.
We all know that at the end of the Drizzt series Salvatore will cut to a scene with Zaknafien sitting straight up in his bed after spending the night with Malice and saying: "GAH! What a horrible nightmare...I dreamt I had a son with a serious savior complex who palled around with dwarves and made a pact with an orc king...."
And then Jarlaxle will roll over and say: "What was that, honey?"
:D
*sits...waits for ban....* |
BEAST |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 19:42:04 I don't see this contradiction or inconsistency that others have alluded to earlier in this scroll. Maybe it is indeed there, but no one has provided any conclusive evidence of it to me, as of yet.
I too am irked by Drizzt's insistence that orcs can indeed be civilized. I liken that to religious faith: belief in what one emotionally wants to be true, rather than what one has evidence to justify believing to be true. Drizzt is becoming, in some ways, a pacifist hippy. Somebody should weave some flowers into that long flowing white mane of his. Maybe teach him to sing "Kum Bah Yah" while skipping around the furnaces of Mithral Hall...
That being said, the Obould dynastic line seems to be the crux of this orc-civilization movement. Something has gotten up the Oboulds' collective butts about uniting them with the other races (whether divine or mundane in origin, I dunno), and the Oboulds are spearheading that push. Drizzt is buying into it, because of some innate tendencies of his own, I guess.
But that does not necessarily mean that all orcs agree with either one of them. Some do; some don't.
The ones that go along are aroused by religious zeal and vague talk by an enthusiastic king of greatness and justice for eons of unfairness and cruelty in the past. It's just enough to get their butts moving, but not really specific at all. Typical political/religious speechifying, IMO. In The Orc King, Obould's closest general and advisor stands ready to do Obould's bidding, whether that means keeping the peace or destroying the dwarven war-party in the aftermath of the duel against Grguch. He is obviously fundamentally guided by allegiance to the charismatic orcan leader himself, rather than actually buying into any vague discussions of societal unity and brotherhood with the other races...
Recall that there were dissenters to Obould's plans even back in "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy", to say nothing of TOK. Even in the Prologue, we're told that there will continue to be dissenting orcs who interfere with maximal implementation of 1371-DR Obould's vision. The Pro. specifically mentions growing influence by some of the old-school shamans and their desire for a return to the old ways.
So how is that in any way inconsistent with the the FRCS?
I believe that the orcan civilization will continue to depend on how well Obould can charismatically inspire enough of his people with his vague vision. Obviously some orcs are close enough to him for his vision to somehow continuously rub off on him. Or maybe it's just his charisma and enthusiasm? Notice that the discussion in the Pro. of the pending wedding between an orc and a human involves a princess and the king, rather than some orc commoner. We're only made privy to the views of a fellow orc in Obould's inner circle, rather than a salt-of-the-earth type of orc. How they think and feel is just a bit beyond us, at the moment.
But I do perceive there to still be plenty of angst and violence-mongering among the orcan masses. That has never gone away. RAS/WOTC have simply added a civilization-minded orc king into the mix, rather than taking away the angst and violence-mongering. So it's an unsteady civilization and peace, at best.
I thought it was especially interesting when Obould VI mentioned in the Pro. that he sorta resents the fact that the higher races seem to be indulging ongoing orc misbehavior too much, because this indulgence actually serves to interfere with orcan social progress and advancement, rather than helping. Orcs need to be taught to appreciate law and order, which means accepting that there are consequences for brutish behavior, rather than having authorities look the other way simply because they are orcs. This passage seems to show that Obould himself gets it, while quite a few other orcs certainly do not.
In the end, methinks that some of you are unnecessarily trying to drive another wedge in between RAS and the FR canon, because that's become a sort of pasttime around here. Of course it's been a justified pursuit at various times in the past. But based on what little info you've presented here thus far, I think y'all are reaching, in this case. |
Hawkins |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 16:36:15 I just don't see why WotC's making the prologue and epilogue irrelevant makes the actual story irrelevant as well. And I think that it was clearly detailed in the book why Drizzt made the decision he did. |
The Red Walker |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 15:25:59 quote: Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote: Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote: Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote: Originally posted by Uzzy
I've got a way to reconcile the two sources. Drizzy is delusional.
Works for me.
If it's good enough for Elminster, it's a good explanation for Drizzt(and his journals).
Ok, so to sum up, Drizzt is insane and has been for quite sometime and we should not take anything he says or does(since accounts of his actions come from him) at face value. He is highly unreliable!
And actually that can more than explain any continuity issues concerning our dual weilding drow and his account of the orc king.
I would appreciate if this did not become yet another Drizzt-bashing thread. He has his flaws, I will admit, but I still like the guy and if it weren't for him there is a good chance the Realms would not have become as popular as it has. Please leave him his dignity, whatever amount of it he has.
Hey, no bashing intended D is still my favorite character to read about, I was being serious giving a possible reason to explain any contiuity issues in his books(like his view of many arrows vs wha has come out lately). After Darkwalker on Moonshae, I think the next "set" of FR books I read was Icewind Dale trilogy, and I have re-read them many, many times. So , please don't mistake me for a Drizzt/RA Basher, I appreciate them both!
|
Chataro |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 14:34:51 I like drizzt but I just can't help but wonder what drizzt is thinking. Supporting Orcs civilising while saying that saying that it isn't good for civilising. Especially since there are some fundamental problems which haven't been solved yet. Or at least it hasn't been addressed yet.
What makes the orc a horde is the fact that the food supply can't match the orc's reproduction habit. How are they gonna solve this problem even with a kingdom?
An orc kingdom may be accepted though grudgingly. But how do they treat their other allies?
1) Goblin 2) Giant 3) Trolls 4) Any other missing?
While dwarfs may tolerate orc, whats stopping elves from filling goblin with arrows or dwarven war axes?
Do they have any inkling what is going to happen when orc starts to outnumber human kind a hundred to 1? Even Obould himself admitted that he disliked the alliance.
Elves and Dwarves being more cunning are going to cheat the orcs in business deals.
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 14:00:09 I'm just joking around. I enjoy poking fun at Drizzt, but that doesn't mean I "hate" the character or don't recognize that he's responsible for at least some of the setting's popularity. |
Hawkins |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 16:39:54 quote: Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote: Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote: Originally posted by Uzzy
I've got a way to reconcile the two sources. Drizzy is delusional.
Works for me.
If it's good enough for Elminster, it's a good explanation for Drizzt(and his journals).
Ok, so to sum up, Drizzt is insane and has been for quite sometime and we should not take anything he says or does(since accounts of his actions come from him) at face value. He is highly unreliable!
And actually that can more than explain any continuity issues concerning our dual weilding drow and his account of the orc king.
I would appreciate if this did not become yet another Drizzt-bashing thread. He has his flaws, I will admit, but I still like the guy and if it weren't for him there is a good chance the Realms would not have become as popular as it has. Please leave him his dignity, whatever amount of it he has. |
Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 14:19:31 quote: Originally posted by Chataro
Civilizing Orcs? Remember what happen when Salvatore tried to civilise the barbarians? They left in less than ten years time. Drizzt claimed that their way of life is better for them. Now apparently the same thing is happening, Orcs lifestyle is better now.
Isn't that quite a slap in the face to the barbarians. Seem to imply that they are less civilised than orcs. How much longer before the silver marches start thinking that the orcs would have a better life reverting back to their old ways? Thinking, mind you, not actually going back
I likes my savage peoples to be savage... not civil. |
The Red Walker |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 14:09:05 quote: Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote: Originally posted by Uzzy
I've got a way to reconcile the two sources. Drizzy is delusional.
Works for me.
If it's good enough for Elminster, it's a good explanation for Drizzt(and his journals).
Ok, so to sum up, Drizzt is insane and has been for quite sometime and we should not take anything he says or does(since accounts of his actions come from him) at face value. He is highly unreliable!
And actually that can more than explain any continuity issues concerning our dual weilding drow and his account of the orc king. |
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 23:26:23 quote: Originally posted by Uzzy
I've got a way to reconcile the two sources. Drizzy is delusional.
Works for me. |
Hawkins |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 19:33:34 Or, we can just ignore the prologue and epilogue of the Orc King and keep the bits in between as relevant. These inconsistencies (in Realmslore) are what has really turned me off to WotC. And (IMO) the new edition is chock full of them. |
Uzzy |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 19:10:35 I've got a way to reconcile the two sources. Drizzy is delusional. Honestly, thinking that Orcs can be peaceful? |
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 18:19:08 quote: Originally posted by Markustay Thank You for elaborating on the pont I was making above -
You're welcome. |
The Red Walker |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 17:46:01 Yeah I remember reading scrolls hear when some of his book events did not jibe with the silver marches supplement. As for me I just see RA as being on a different playing level than most others and try not to let such instances stop me from enjoying a good book. |
Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 17:41:17 So, there haven't been any similar instances--or even groupings of instances--at other points in the history of the published Realms? The word "egregious" is probably a bit heavy handed considering what we're talking about (continuity flaps in a fictional universe), but if one were to use it (and heck, here one goes!), it seems like similarly egregious lapses--especially between the novels and the gaming products--could be identified going back to the beginning of the novel line, which R.A. Salvatore, of course, helped launch. |
Markustay |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 16:55:04 quote: Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
See, in The Orc King, we learn that the orcs in the Kingdom of Many-Arrows don't just become civilized, they become "goodly" and a beacon of hope in the Silver Marches area. We even get a snapshot of a female orc who is going to marry a human from that area, with the blessings of the current orc king. And Drizzt defends all these orcs against those who would try to harm them.
In the FRCG, we learn that these orcs are in fact not so great, not any kind of example to be looked up to, and their relationship with Luruar is strained at best.
Thank You for elaborating on the pont I was making above -
It appears as if RAS wrote the story with one possible future in mind, and then WotC went a completely different way.
Once again, we see another consistency problem rearing it's head with 4eFR - it's as if everyone involved in its creation is picturing it differently, it seems. 
quote: Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Is part of the project here at Candlekeep, as y'all each envision it, an attempt at reconciliation or explaining these kinds of inconsistencies and contradictions? (Beyond understanding the real world reasons behind them, I mean, which is actually probably the easier task).
There is a point where our skills are strained to the point of breaking. 
There's a difference between trying to make some sense out of Lost, and trying to make sense of Gilligan's Island.  |
Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 16:32:08 As I said above, I think Ashe's assumption about the whys and wherefores of the seeming contradiction(s) are correct, though I have a perhaps more generous view of the complicated design decisions behind the changes and of the folks who made those decisions .
That said, again, this has almost certainly been happening with more or less regularity since published Realmslore began appearing under bylines other than Ed's. Is part of the project here at Candlekeep, as y'all each envision it, an attempt at reconciliation or explaining these kinds of inconsistencies and contradictions? (Beyond understanding the real world reasons behind them, I mean, which is actually probably the easier task). |
Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 16:20:19 I honestly don't think Drizzt was 'fooled', because RAS was working with information that was correct at the time. When Wasbro changed their minds on the Orc kingdom, it was too late to 'rewrite' the story. |
The Red Walker |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 14:59:19 quote: Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote: Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
See, in The Orc King, we learn that the orcs in the Kingdom of Many-Arrows don't just become civilized, they become "goodly" and a beacon of hope in the Silver Marches area. We even get a snapshot of a female orc who is going to marry a human from that area, with the blessings of the current orc king. And Drizzt defends all these orcs against those who would try to harm them.
In the FRCG, we learn that these orcs are in fact not so great, not any kind of example to be looked up to, and their relationship with Luruar is strained at best.
Exactly...
I guess Drizzt was just fooled...the great swordsman, finally undone by an orc.
Yes, but an orc weilding more powerfull magic weapons and armor the D, or The king would have died in thir duel. Hard to beat that "Magis Glass" in his helm that acts like a bulletproof windshield!
And who would "feel" more for a "misunderstood" Orc than Guilt ridden Drizzt?
It was inevetable someone/thing would take advantage of him. |
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 14:53:00 quote: Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Thanks for the info, Ashe, and the insight, Rinonalyrna.
You're welcome.
quote: As has been said, it seems obvious that the conception of Many-Arrows changed sometime between when Bob Salvatore finished his book and the final set of edits for the RPG materials. What's the usual project of the Keep in these cases? To find a way to reconcile opposing lore? Go with the last published? I'm sure this happens quite a bit.
I think it does--at least, it's certainly nothing new.
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