| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 09 Aug 2002 : 05:04:09
Is anyone else a bit tired of Elminster the Invincible, also known as He Who Is Never In Any Real Danger Even When He Is In Hell? It just seems a bit tiring...there has never been anyone that was even a close match to him....not liches, not dragons, not demons or gods or even the almighty Manshoon (whom, one may note, Elminster can simply drop in on completely un-noticed, disguised as a rug...).
Other Realms characters who are rumored to be invincible (Drizzt Do'Urden, Arilyn Moonblade, The Blackstaff, etc.) always come across nearly insurmountable odds and almost never escape unharmed (Drizzt even "died" recently).
I know that the Realms sort of has to have a "signature character", but I also know that my own gaming sessions have shifted in their adoption of an almighty archmage to that of the aforementioned Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun - a character with nearly equal power, but with a much more human quality that makes him more interesting.
Elminster of course has his predecessors, but even the likes of Gandalf and Merlin had opponents worthy of their time.....we have yet to see that in the Sage of Shadowdale.
To each their own, I suppose...
"Wine is only sweet to happy men." Keats |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Shades |
Posted - 15 Apr 2003 : 03:58:28
I just finished Hand of Fire...anyone remember the guy that the Zhentarim mages refer to as their Elminster. I think Ed Greenwood might be hinting at a future conflict. Also Shar has turned some Halruaan mages to her side with the Shadow Weave...and alot of products say that there are many Halruaan mages on par with Elminster, Khelban "Blackstaff", and the Simbul. So their might be many mages that can challange Elminster out there.
I don't know if any of you would like to see the same thing as me, but would'nt it be interesting to see the return of Illundyl, the only mage I've read to defeat Elminster. Even Elminster would feel a little threatened. He only beat him because Mystra became directly involved. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 14 Apr 2003 : 22:08:03
The only reason why The King OF Shade would have trouble with Elminster, si that Elminster is a Chosen of Mystra. but the guy is quite powerful. Szass Tam I think would not fare well against Elminster. THe statistics blocks in the FR campaign setting show a definite tip of balance in Elminsters favor. Plus if a DM played Elminster to his full potential, he probably has alot he can use against Szass Tam.
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| lowtech |
Posted - 14 Apr 2003 : 21:08:23
The Sorcerer-King of Shade might be a match for Elminster, as well as Szass Tam. Larloch (of Warlock's Keep) could easily destroy him if he wished to become involved in mortal affairs. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 12 Apr 2003 : 14:37:23
And I believe Drizzt had the advantage of prepared terrain and a sword (Icingdeath, named after the dragon) that was the opposite of Errtu (who, like the original Balrog, was a bit on the hot side) and so caused him extra pain. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 11 Apr 2003 : 21:41:48
Posted by the GREAT DRIZZT:
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Ok, well first, your right, Drizzt would really be bad ass if he was a chosen, second, gandalf is a *****! he fights with a sword, but in the cartoons, movie, book, and all that he barley ever casts a spell, I think hes a pansy.
The Great Drizzt
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Clearly great Drizzt, you need to read more than Forgotten Realms fiction. Tolkein's world is NOT the forgotten realms where any peasant just might have a magic sword as an Heirloom. The purpose of Tolkeins world was an experiment with a Language that Tolkein made up.
The purpose of the forgotten realms is too provide a campaign setting to role play in. If you knew what you were talking about you would realize that Gandalf, being a very special being called the Istari, is, besides Radagast and Saruman, one of the most powerful creaturess on Middle earth rivalling Sauron himself. Essentially he is what Elminster is based upon. He is the sage, and he is the guide, but he allows the prophecies to fulfill themselves. And what Pansy dear boy can Beat the stuffing out of a Balrog (Type VI demon) in case you could not tell. GANDALF BEAT A BALROG!!!!!!! DRIZZT with guenhyvar's help mind you , BEAT ERRTU ANOTHER BALROG. SO GANDALF IS AT LEAST AS POWERFUL AS DRIZZT!!! ANd he didn't need the help of a CAT!!!!!
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 11 Apr 2003 : 10:45:36
Mm, good point. Of course, I was using "Chosen" in the singular, not the plural. Shar might be trying to move in on Mystra's teritory, but she's facing a very real problem. She can't interfere with mortals in any direct fashion.
So here's my proposal. She's planned for this. She has the patience. After all, she's nurtured the Shadow Weave since nearly the beginning of Realmspace. Surely she's thought it all out. I know I'd think of this eventually, in her place. And she's had plenty of time to think.
So why not train her own Chosen from the start? Selected from birth, (s)he would have been trained only in Shar's ways, and would never even thing of betraying her. Maybe disobey (after all, Shar wouldn't be able to afford her servant to be totally unthinking in obediance; initiative is important) but never betray. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 11 Apr 2003 : 10:36:36
Ah but you forget that Shar is unlikely to share, dilute and vest her power in another of free will. Shar won't be making any Chosen simply because she couldn't trust them.
Oh, and Elminster might be on "the way out" but you forget that his daughter is about to tread the FR boards.:)
-- George Krashos
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 11 Apr 2003 : 10:26:47
Bookwyrm wipes off yet another dusty old tome.
Elminster. Is. Too. Powerful.
Period.
End of thought.
Well, since you insist, I'll go on. 
Elminster is a great character. He plays up the quirky, zany old man very well; in that sense he's less like Merlin and Gandalf and more like the Doctor. (And if you don't know who the Doctor is, I Will Beat You To A Pulp.   )
But he's better as a sage than a mage. I like Elinster; I do not like Elminster battles. He's great as a catalyst, a way to point the characters on. But he's got far too much power in him to be interesting. There's too much magic in his life.
I didn't really like any of the stories that focused on Elminster for too long. Spellfire was an exception, at least with parts of it. The best book where Elminster played more than a passing role, however, was Azure Bonds. Read it, and pay attention. He used no magic in the book. In fact, Alias didn't even know it was him she was talking to. That is the Elminster that I'd prefer.
Elminster the Sage. Not the Mage.
But he's a power figure. There's no way to change it. But there might be a way to stop him from being the power figure. As I see it, there are three ways to sort of "bring him down."
1) People write more of him as a sage first, mage second. More characterization, better character.
2) He gets "too old for this sort of thing" and starts to withdraw.
3) A counter-power rises to challenge him.
There's no reason why all of these can't happen at the same time. In fact, the first two can be directly related. Picture this: He's been feeling the weight of his years and the burden of his responsibilities for some time now, especially after that little "incident" with the demon. And so he starts passing more and more of his duties on to the other Chosen, especially Storm and Kelban.
But the counter-power . . . who should it be? It seems impossible to do. After all, why would (s)he be coming now? How could (s)he have grown so powerful as to challenge him and the other Chosen without first being nipped in the bud? It seems impossible.
At first, that is.
Think about it. What gives Elminster so much power? He isn't a natural mage. He was given the power by Mystara herself. Being a Chosen makes him powerful. So it follows that another Chosen would give him grief.
But no Chosen could possibly turn to the Dark Side, as it were, could they? After all, they wouldn't be Chosen then, because Mystra wouldn't let them keep the power.
But now Mystra isn't the only magic-god around. Shar's got her own Weave.
Think about it . . . a Chosen of Shar, rising to power in the Realms. A power exactly equal to that of Elminster, but not burdened by concience or any need for balance. And do this at a time where he's "retiring," so to speak . . . .
Wouldn't that make a good plot?
Think about it. |
| The Great Drizzt |
Posted - 11 Nov 2002 : 08:42:38
Actually, Elminster is in quite a few other books, hes even mentioned in alot more, theres a few books with a bunch of short stories too, like Realms of Magic, Realms of the Underdark, Realms of Valor, and Hes mentioned in just about every PC and Video game I've played, Elminster is very popular.
The Great Drizzt |
| KlarthAilerion |
Posted - 11 Nov 2002 : 05:25:18
don't you think it would get kind of boring having the same character in most of the books cast throughout all different areas of the Realms? That's not to say that I think he's invincible or a bad character... I just personally don't want to read about any one character in every book.. not as much variety and creativity then. |
| Darwin Tenderfoot |
Posted - 09 Nov 2002 : 04:14:38
If Elminster is so powerful how come he doesnt show up more often in other books? Just wondering.
Darwin  |
| The Great Drizzt |
Posted - 28 Oct 2002 : 05:58:07
Yeah, Elminster is cool, even with the help from the bards.
The Great Drizzt |
| Bellua Aeneus Lacerta |
Posted - 28 Oct 2002 : 01:06:02
Elminster is the coolest. Making of a Mage was the second FR book I'd read, and that's the one that got me hooked. He's a good character if you figure in the embellishment factor all bards put into their tales . |
| The Great Drizzt |
Posted - 17 Oct 2002 : 03:51:45
Haha, I just finished reading Elminster in Hell, and he whooped major ass, Blackstaff helped out alot too. Elminster is cool.
The Great Drizzt |
| The Great Drizzt |
Posted - 12 Oct 2002 : 08:41:49
Dude! your way off!
Elminster "Fails" and gets his ass kicked all the time, and no, he doesnt go to hell and kill everything, first off, he cant even defeat Nergal, and thats the first Demon he's ran into so far(i've only got about 1/4th of the book left), he cant even hurt Nergal for christs sake, and the only reason hes in hell in the first place is to fix a tear in the fabric that keeps the different planes apart, and in my opinion, he has alot of history behind him just like Drizzt, just not enough, give him some time, and its not his fault that Ed Greenwood is a crappy writer, I only book that wasnt totally about him was The Temptation of Elminster, I think that book sucked, he was in it like 2 or 3 time throughout the whole book, and furthermore I think that Elminster is very characteristic, he's always optimistic, and he's very, very, wity, and funny as well, have you even read any of his books? I think you should, there pretty good, not as good as Drizzt's book, not by far, but they are good none the less.
The Great Drizzt |
| eilinel |
Posted - 09 Oct 2002 : 04:08:05
There is a lot of things here i didn't know about Elminster, very interesting...
please, continue guys!
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| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 08 Oct 2002 : 20:21:08
Okay, folks, my point was been waaaaay misconstrued....
My point as concerns Drizzt being a chosen was this:
Drizzt is simply one of the most intriguing characters in the Realms....why? IMHO, it is a combination of his amazing skills, abilities and the like...but what is more, he is realistic, with realistic desires and the like. He sometimes fails, finds himself in doubt, dispair, and has many many different character traits which define him as nothing less than one of the most important characters in Fantasty literature....
Elminster is the opposite as concerned with his humanity....he RARELY fails...RARELY desires....RARELY lusts and is NEVER in and real danger.....as a mage he is intriguing, sort of, but then when you couple all of this with the abilities of the Chosen, NOW he is supposedly something special....
My point is this: characters like Drizzt whose powers and skills and realism are inner truths explored through adventuring and loss, characters like Elminster swoop about and blow things up with powers that they just sort of "inherited".....I think that if Drizzt was a Chosen, he could blow things up and have every bit of power that Elminster has....
Being a Chosen like Elminster ( monstrously powerful with little characterization beyond that of already-established Merlin/Gandalf stereotypes) is simply boring whereas Chosen like the Blackstaff (monstrously powerful with LOTS of characterization who lusts and hungers like the rest of us).
To put it another way.....If I were a Chosen of Mystra (aka if Mystra liked me enough to just grant me power)....I would be as powerful as Elminster....hopefully though, I'd have much more creative and interesting adventures than "Let's take on all of Hell and win because Mystra likes me."
Whew, was that long-winded or what? |
| The Great Drizzt |
Posted - 08 Oct 2002 : 08:39:15
No way, dude your way off base!
I agree with all you said but that wasnt my point, I didnt say he want a good character, or that it might make him a better one, I just meant he would kick alot more ass, just like elminster does while hes a chosen, believe me, I think Drizzt is a great character(hence my name!)
The Great Drizzt |
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 08 Oct 2002 : 08:27:21
Why would Drizzt be a "bad ass" if he were a chosen? Just because he would get more powers and maybe even more attacks per round? Does the amount of powers and abilities define a good character?
IMO a good character is more, much more then just a collection of high ability scores, a truckload of feats and other tricks. He needs to have a personality, an emotional character. Drizzt has been given most of that by RA Salvatore. Making him a choses because he could the kill more orcs in a single round and such would only damage the character and reduce him to a Marvel Comics two-dimensional type of super-hero. |
| The Great Drizzt |
Posted - 08 Oct 2002 : 07:47:28
Ok, well first, your right, Drizzt would really be bad ass if he was a chosen, second, gandalf is a *****! he fights with a sword, but in the cartoons, movie, book, and all that he barley ever casts a spell, I think hes a pansy.
The Great Drizzt |
| Mask |
Posted - 04 Oct 2002 : 09:35:11
Thank you very much. I really had no idea. |
| Alaundo |
Posted - 04 Oct 2002 : 09:23:30
Well Met
Mask, (and indeed anyone else who isnt familiar with abbreviations), please see the section on the REALMS-L FAQ: http://www.candlekeep.com/fr_faq.htm#_Toc16090626 which gives not only standard abbreviations but also abbreviations of D&D and Realms products, such as "DDGttU" (Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark).
Hope this helps
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| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 04 Oct 2002 : 09:06:13
In My Humble Opinion, a more polite form of IMO (In My Opinion) |
| Mask |
Posted - 04 Oct 2002 : 08:58:20
This may sound stupid, but what does IMHO mean? |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 03 Oct 2002 : 20:21:03
I don't know....
I value characters whose powers were internal struggles....
Elminster worked up to the point of becoming a VERY talented mage....but no greater than Manshoon or Blackstaff or any of those folks....
However, a little intervention from Mystra, and BOOM! you have a walking god on your hands...
My point is that there is nothing really special about Elminster....I am sure that say....Drizzt, for example would be equally great were he a "Chosen". IMHO, he is a stereotypical Gandalf clone, and he doesn't really change....he is a static character, and that leads to bad fiction.... |
| The Great Drizzt |
Posted - 03 Oct 2002 : 06:57:34
I'm guessing it's Elminster, but look at the hell he has to go through all the time, he deserves every good thing that happens to him, well thats what this drow believes, hes one tough cookie, doesnt he deserve a medal or something?
The Great Drizzt |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 01 Oct 2002 : 20:09:04
But ya see....that's my point....
We have to invent new species of demons and throw the gods at him to give Elminster a challenge....there is a problem with this.
Elminster puffs his pipe....rubs his chin, waggles his finger, and blows up hell....sigh....too easy.
What's more....read on.....I bet you can't guess who wins in the end by overwhelming odds! |
| The Great Drizzt |
Posted - 01 Oct 2002 : 08:59:59
I just started "Eminster in Hell" last night and 3 chapters into it, its VERY interesting, he is the "BITCH" literally, of one of the eight prince of demons named Nergal, he even had hisarm and his "package" ripped off(no good) but the book is Very, very, confusing, he keeps having these "memories" and they jump back and forth during his travels, so who ever said that he always comes out of trouble un-scathed, read all of his book, he gets his ass handed to him in all of them, in actuality, I kinda feel sorry for him, I couldnt PC him, he gets abused way to often for my liking.
The Great Drizzt
P.S.-the demon is more powerfull than Tiamat, and Baalzebul, and the part in the abyss they are in is called Avernus |
| Lord Rad |
Posted - 28 Sep 2002 : 11:04:10
Well IIRC....SPOILER
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Elminster got swallowed up into the Abyss in events given in "The Seige" novel. I think it was somewhere in Shadowdale, maybe near The Tower of Ashaba. I might be wrong about the location as it was a few months ago that i read the novel. Also, IIRC, the novel "Elminster in Hell" continues the story of Elminster after he was sucked into the chasm leading to the Abyss. I havent read "Elminster in Hell" so dont know the outcome, I assume he escapes one way or another but not sure of the time scale...... maybe the events of "The Sorceror (Return of the Archwizards Book 3) will have passed before Elminsters return?!
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| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 27 Sep 2002 : 23:15:16
Okay, folks....
Thanks to our benevolent overseer and seer in general, Alaundo, this forum is back once again....huzzah!
However, I have been warned that it will be locked down if certain individuals see it as a chance to make a bunch of non-sensical jabber about how awful everyone else is.......
That said, folks......gimme your insights on Elminster!!!
Anyone have any thoughts on whether or not he will effect the return of Shade Enclave.......................? |
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