| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Rory |
Posted - 15 Apr 2008 : 07:04:02
I’m talking about a great videogame set in the Forgotten Realms. In 1988 it was Pool of Radiance. To this day its my favorite videogame of all time and one of the core reasons I became and I still am a fan of the setting. In 1998 it was Baldurs Gate. I shared some of the common criticisms for this game as I played it and for months afterward however as time passed the game grew on me in many ways and I now recognize it as one of the top ten videogames I ever played.
So here I post this deliberately in the general discussion instead of the other forum because I want to bring this up among potential non-gamers. I’m more interested in their reaction and feedback. I also don’t like the title of the forum. No offense, maybe I’m a bit neurotic in the sense that when I see ‘Forgotten Realms Computer Software’ it reminds me of how the console market was initially ignored, and later almost condescendingly fed ‘safe’ non-RPGs. There hasn’t been a true console RPG set in the Forgotten Realms since Pool of Radiance on the NES.
I’m not even going to raise my hands and decry wizard’s marketing. One could argue that I can’t predict the near future and I could rebut that in several ways but that would be silly. I just want to mark this as milestone lost. It would have been so nice to hear a marketing slogan that bragged about the RPG of the year of ten years and twenty years past as they introduce another into the fold. I’m just sick of asking people what was the last D&D console RPG and hearing action games, or Oblivion.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 23 Apr 2008 : 16:06:33
Just as a note, (and I know that this is not specifically and FR game, Sage, sorry) when Dragon Age finally comes out (it is by Bioware, the same company that made BG, BG II, NWN, and SW:KotOR), they have said that the gameplay should be somewhere between the BG series and NWN. I only felt the need to say this because of the conversation Rory and RF had a bit further back on this thread about gameplay.
Also, I believe, on topic; for me, graphics are not the best selling point, I played the hell out of my NWN1 game + expansions, not because the graphics were good, but because I loved the gameplay. I still go back and play BG I&II for the same reason, in addition to games on my old SNES. I also really enjoyed NWN2, even thought the graphics are not the best (though for some reason they still require Shader 2.0), they are way better than NWN1 and the gameplay is exactly what I desired. |
| Rory |
Posted - 23 Apr 2008 : 06:43:43
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
Bethesda likes to market their games with "WE HAVE BIG NAME CELEBS VOICING THEM EEEE." The rest are just some particular things to Oblivion, and since the "next-gen" crowd likes it so much, I must assume they like those features. Stating those facts is hardly a sign of snobbery.
Give me a week or so and I’ll PM you the reason why an old hat like myself could still put Oblivion in the top 5 ever even while agreeing with most of the review.
quote:
KotOR? Jade Empire? Those were on the XBox, just like Morrowind. I think the console "RPG" gamers just want an MMORPG. They should just register a WoW account and be done with it. (Note: before you accuse me of being snobbish, I play WoW. I raided, even, and have multiple max-level characters. With that said, WoW has actual life and color. Some of the NPCs are actually funny and don't talk like wikipedia.)
You know what I mean. They were both 'launch window' games for the Xbox and the 360 when there was nothing else around.
quote:
The discussion's fairly recent. You could just sign up and tell those "sad" people that going multi-platform is the be-all-end-all solution to everything.
I might do something like that one day. My name will be Kaanyr Vhok. |
| Karzak |
Posted - 23 Apr 2008 : 01:28:04
Yeah, that's why I initially sent links via PM. Ah well. I think the topic, insofar as it pertains to FR, is close to exhausted anyway. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Apr 2008 : 01:10:48
Folks, we're steadily working into a discussion that has little to do with Realms computer software. I really don't want to have to seal this scroll, so let's try and bring it back on track, eh?  |
| Karzak |
Posted - 23 Apr 2008 : 00:44:16
quote:
Originally posted by Rory
I don’t know if you just get off playing the part of the bitter snobby CRPG fan or you just want to take a shot at Oblivion
Bethesda likes to market their games with "WE HAVE BIG NAME CELEBS VOICING THEM EEEE." The rest are just some particular things to Oblivion, and since the "next-gen" crowd likes it so much, I must assume they like those features. Stating those facts is hardly a sign of snobbery.
quote:
The main reason Oblivion and Morrowind sold was because they were the only RPGs on the platform and compared to most console RPGs they were unique.
KotOR? Jade Empire? Those were on the XBox, just like Morrowind. I think the console "RPG" gamers just want an MMORPG. They should just register a WoW account and be done with it. (Note: before you accuse me of being snobbish, I play WoW. I raided, even, and have multiple max-level characters. With that said, WoW has actual life and color. Some of the NPCs are actually funny and don't talk like wikipedia.)
quote:
Oh BTW the PMs you sent me had some interesting discussion but no Oblivion reviews.
Were you asking for them? Anyway, here you go. Here's another one.
quote:
The saddest one was the four page thread on why PST didn’t sell. In four pages not one person mentioned the fact that it was on one platform.
The discussion's fairly recent. You could just sign up and tell those "sad" people that going multi-platform is the be-all-end-all solution to everything. |
| Rory |
Posted - 22 Apr 2008 : 23:56:07
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
The likelihood of a BG2 remake is even less than the likelihood of a modern non-indie game developer making a 2D RPG. Hell, FF7 is Square's most milkable cash-cow right now, and I don't see them churning out a remake. (There're rumours about a PS3 remake or something, apparently, but as far as I know they're yet unsubstantiated.)
It was hypothetical. My point was that the 2D graphics, and all the walking would be the only turnoff. So you remedy that with 3D graphics, and horses. Then let the flight spells, and Griffons, provide the “next-gen” icing.
quote:
Of course, to really please the "next-gen" crowd, you'd also need a quest compass and journal entries that tell the player what to do step by step. You'd probably need to cut out 90% of the dialogue too, because it'd get in the way of hiring celebrities to do the voice-work. Patrick Stewart for Irenicus! Liam Neeson for Sarevok!
I don’t know if you just get off playing the part of the bitter snobby CRPG fan or you just want to take a shot at Oblivion
What people really want are the games. The main reason Oblivion and Morrowind sold was because they were the only RPGs on the platform and compared to most console RPGs they were unique. If it was Planescape Torment in 3D with decent marketing it would have sold just as well. Timing is everything. I remember Deus Ex IW was supposed to sell on the Xbox because it was “dumb down” and had guns. It was presented as just another shooter during a time when the Xbox was swamped with big name games and had just-another-shooter sales.
I want to regress on something I said earlier. There is a difference between thought and thoughtful. The DS has plenty games that require thought but it is lacking in thoughtful games that make you think about the game even when you aren’t playing. You already know my solution.
quote:
BG2 - or any IE game, really - is not playable without a mouse. So, no handheld.
Not true at all. If you can play Pool of Radiance with an Atari joystick or an NES controller which is what most people played it with, or a Lord of the Rings RTS, or KOTOR with a 360 controller you can play anything with anything. Now that doesn’t mean it will feel better than a mouse for everyone. A DS stylist, or a Wii-mote would provide much same functionality as a mouse. That would be a great target audience for the point and click style RPGs.
Again this is also hypothetical because I was just talking about using the IE’s mechanics which compared to something like Pokemon Mystery Dungeon would be avant-garde. I don’t know if a re-release of IE games is even possible and I know you couldn’t fit the game on a cart. Hypothetically, if it was possible would you be in favor of releasing a pure PST port on the PSP 2 as a launch title if the PSP 2 had a touch screen with a stylist?
Oh BTW the PMs you sent me had some interesting discussion but no Oblivion reviews. The saddest one was the four page thread on why PST didn’t sell. In four pages not one person mentioned the fact that it was on one platform.
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| Karzak |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 17:22:24
quote:
Originally posted by Rory
With 3D graphics, mounts, and the ability to Fly BG 2 would be one of the most talked about games of this generation.
The likelihood of a BG2 remake is even less than the likelihood of a modern non-indie game developer making a 2D RPG. Hell, FF7 is Square's most milkable cash-cow right now, and I don't see them churning out a remake. (There're rumours about a PS3 remake or something, apparently, but as far as I know they're yet unsubstantiated.)
Of course, to really please the "next-gen" crowd, you'd also need a quest compass and journal entries that tell the player what to do step by step. You'd probably need to cut out 90% of the dialogue too, because it'd get in the way of hiring celebrities to do the voice-work. Patrick Stewart for Irenicus! Liam Neeson for Sarevok!
quote:
On the DS there are many RPGs with ugly 2D graphics and simpler gameplay all-around. The DS is a pretty marketable platform when it comes to RPGs.
BG2 - or any IE game, really - is not playable without a mouse. So, no handheld. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 16:18:20
quote:
Originally posted by Rory
What about really really smart NPCs?
Not sure what you mean by that. I love well-scripted NPCs, yes. I'm not inclined to play with other people online, especially if they are total strangers.
quote:
The only thing that’s old about the game is the 2D graphics and not everyone views 2D as an old school mechanic.
I think a lot of the people who matter do though--in fact, as far as I know the IE has been put out to pasture.
I understand your complaint (I think?), but there's nothing anyone here can do about it, except perhaps lend a sympathic ear. Whether you like what I'm saying or not, I don't make video games so I'm not the one to complain to. |
| Rory |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 08:48:20
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I see, although my opinion is quite different. I usually would prefer to play a CRPG alone.
What about really really smart NPCs?
quote:
Eh...I have to disagree here. I love the BG games to death (and the IE, as well), but I'd be naive to expect that style to be used again. The IE is at least one whole decade old, which is ancient as far as the video game industry is concerned. Like it or not, it's old news.
The only thing that’s old about the game is the 2D graphics and not everyone views 2D as an old school mechanic. On the DS there are many RPGs with ugly 2D graphics and simpler gameplay all-around. The DS is a pretty marketable platform when it comes to RPGs. The next Dragon Warrior will be a DS exclusive. If you look at the RPGs on the PSP BG would more than hold its own and with this contemporary marketplace format on home consoles a game like BG would have a market there too.
*warning rant*
Nintendo’s Pokemon Mystery Dungeon sold 5.5 million copies. Let me tell you… seldom… have I… played a worse game. The game wasn’t a dog it was a wounded, sick dog. It had nothing going for it at all but a license. It was bad on top of bad. Google image some of the graphics on that game. Horrible level design, generic, repetitive combat, and a cheesy story to go with it.
Compared to something like Mass Effect on a home console BG would show its age in 2D graphics, and voice acting alone. You could say the same about Nintendo’s Fire Emblem, which has mediocre 3D graphics from the same point of view as BG.
BG was way ahead of its time. The fact that the game is ten years old and I cant name an RPG with better stat-based combat than the pinnacle of the IE which is probably IWD 2 or BG 2 is a testament and I don’t think I’m blinded by my FR fan glasses either. Japanese RPGs are so backwards they still have in-combat theft. Yes in Lost Odyssey, and Fire Emblem thieves only steal in-combat.
With 3D graphics, mounts, and the ability to Fly BG 2 would be one of the most talked about games of this generation.
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| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 01:51:35
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
I could link you to a review that explains, with beautiful and funny wit, why Oblivion is not only lacking, but is a game comprised entirely of lacks (in my opinion, anyway, and in the reviewer's). But since doing so - linking to something that explicitly answers your straightforward question - may be construed as a demonstration of the dreaded elitism, sarcasm and general unfriendliness, I'll settle with PMing you the review in question instead. You might even find it amusing.
Please PM that review--I'd love to read it. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 01:48:08
quote:
Originally posted by Rory
I’m aware of the single player mods. There are even a couple Pool of Radiance remakes. I found however that the multiplayer mods are where the fun is especially if you are gaming on a server with people who have a similar work schedule as yourself.
I see, although my opinion is quite different. I usually would prefer to play a CRPG alone.
quote:
I’m not looking for the next Baldurs Gate in terms of style I’m looking for the next Baldurs Gate to impact the industry with its greatness and include all those console gamers that are going to buy a million and a half copies of Fallout 3 in the process.
Gotcha.
quote:
That said Baldurs Gate’s style isn’t old. I havent seen an RPG with better combat since the infinity engine died with Icewind Dale 2. I think the last Zelda on the DS and many other DS games would have truly benefited from the infinity engine’s style. I would love to play a Zelda game where I can point the Wii-mote or the DS stylist at one of 5 of Links chums and move them around Hyrule style. The most optimistic thing I can say on this topic is that Final Fantasy 12 appeared to be influenced by Knights of the old Republic, which was a poor mans version of Baldurs Gate. So Baldurs Gate is still the standard at least when it comes to combat.
Eh...I have to disagree here. I love the BG games to death (and the IE, as well), but I'd be naive to expect that style to be used again. The IE is at least one whole decade old, which is ancient as far as the video game industry is concerned. Like it or not, it's old news. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 20 Apr 2008 : 23:31:04
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
Au contraire, MotB is everything Oblivion is not and has everything Oblivion does not have, from a tight story line to well-written dialogue to memorable NPCs. Oblivion resembles Diablo 2 far more than it resembles MotB. Oh, do pick the expansion up, but what has been said in this thread that makes you think it'd be anything remotely like Oblisuck Oblivion?
Ok then: thanks for the.. tip? I'll forget about MotB and stick to Oblivion... I haven't installed the two Oblivion expansion packs yet (knights of the nine, and shivering isles (sp?) ), so I still have lots of 'play hours' left) |
| GoCeraf |
Posted - 20 Apr 2008 : 20:11:18
I'm inclined to agree that Mask of the Betrayer is really nothing like Oblivion, although I do happen to like the Elder Scrolls games (I prefer Morrowind to Oblivion, actually). Regardless, while there are a few sidequests and areas to explore for the sake of treasure and what have you, the Neverwinter games keep you on a relatively short leash, although the original campaign loosens things up later on. I'll echo that MotB is great because of the questions it raises on good and evil, as well as the piety (or lack thereof) of people in the Realms. |
| Karzak |
Posted - 20 Apr 2008 : 18:51:42
Au contraire, MotB is everything Oblivion is not and has everything Oblivion does not have, from a tight story line to well-written dialogue to memorable NPCs. Oblivion resembles Diablo 2 far more than it resembles MotB. Oh, do pick the expansion up, but what has been said in this thread that makes you think it'd be anything remotely like Oblisuck Oblivion? |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 20 Apr 2008 : 17:03:45
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
quote:
Originally posted by GoCeraf
Of course, you've said that games don't surprise you, so maybe the twists won't catch you off guard. Couldn't hurt to play it, though.
I suspect he means the quality of the games, as opposed to surprises in their plotlines. I don't recall any "omg!!!" plot twists in MotB as such, though - but the story moved me, and deals with one of the more interesting religious issues in FR. And RPGs that base its entire premise on an exploration of faith rather than "CHOSEN ONE SAVES FANTASIA GENERICA" (amusingly, Oblivion very much fits into the save-the-world mold) are things worth treasuring. Yes, I do think MotB is far more thoughtful than the bulk of the RPGs out there - and definitely more thoughtful than Oblivion.
Hmm... ok then... maybe I have to give MotB a look. Since I very much like Oblivion, from what I hear in this thread, I will absolutely love MotB...  |
| Karzak |
Posted - 20 Apr 2008 : 16:41:42
quote:
Originally posted by GoCeraf
Of course, you've said that games don't surprise you, so maybe the twists won't catch you off guard. Couldn't hurt to play it, though.
I suspect he means the quality of the games, as opposed to surprises in their plotlines. I don't recall any "omg!!!" plot twists in MotB as such, though - but the story moved me, and deals with one of the more interesting religious issues in FR. And RPGs that base its entire premise on an exploration of faith rather than "CHOSEN ONE SAVES FANTASIA GENERICA" (amusingly, Oblivion very much fits into the save-the-world mold) are things worth treasuring. Yes, I do think MotB is far more thoughtful than the bulk of the RPGs out there - and definitely more thoughtful than Oblivion. |
| GoCeraf |
Posted - 20 Apr 2008 : 06:31:44
I gotta tell ya man, and this may be slightly off topic...
But NWN2's graphics, while not hideous, are not exactly PS3/XBox360 material. I mean, the system requirements are surprisingly high, but aside from that...
Don't get me wrong; I think that Mask of the Betrayer is one of the best bits of FR goodness, game or otherwise, that I've ever experienced. In fact, now that you've GOT a computer that can handle it, you really ought to give both the original campaign AND MotB a chance, if you've got the time. Granted, the original campaign could do with some better voice acting, but Mask of the Betrayer has some pretty prevalent ones, like Crispin Freeman. Aside from that, it's solid and very enjoyable, with a couple of plot twists.
Of course, you've said that games don't surprise you, so maybe the twists won't catch you off guard. Couldn't hurt to play it, though. |
| Rory |
Posted - 20 Apr 2008 : 00:58:26
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
What.
Oblivion and Morrowind are exercises in "what if you sell MMORPGs but make it singleplayer"; Jade Empire is a shallow action RPG set in Disneyland China (with storyline and characters recycled from KotOR); Fable is an overhyped piece of garbage that didn't even deliver on its creator's promises; KotOR is decent but thrives on the Star Wars license. Where are the console equivalents of Planescape: Torment, Vampires - The Masquerade: Bloodlines, the first two Fallouts, The Witcher even? Where are the console gamers who want thoughtful, complex RPGs?
My point wasn’t that these were great games. Out of all of those games I would say Oblivion was the only great one. Even with Oblivion... I think I have seen the link you are referring to. I agree with most of the critics. I felt like it was great game despite about five huge obvious flaws.
Still that’s not the point. I’m not trying to debate the top ten videogame RPGs ever. That’s a better discussion for the other forum. The point is that they are marketable. They all sold over 700k. All except for Oblivion did so on the original Xbox. That’s a lot considering it was one original platform without an existing fanbase.
Your questions sound awfully rhetorical. What difference does it make if I believe that in the last 25 years a couple console RPGs were better than Fallout. Pool of Radiance was a multiplatform game and it was my favorite RPG ever. So?? What difference does that make? The question isn’t where are the gamers that want these games; the question is where are the games? I don’t even like using the word thoughtful to describe an RPG. That’s too arrogant. The DS alone is cropped full of brain teasers and adventure/puzzle games that require more thought than any RPGs. There isn’t a significant IQ loss, or personality loss/gain between gamers on each platform unless we are talking about Final Fantasy fans.
quote:
Because if it isn't hyped, it can't possibly be good. Gaming journalism has such amazing integrity, too.
It’s the power of gamerankings.com reasoning and having played games for a quarter century.
I’m rarely surprised when I buy a videogame. For the last ten years I have had pretty good understanding of the pros and cons of gaming journalism besides aren’t you the one with an Oblivion diss link?
Anyway back to my main point that you seem to be talking around. Even if this expansion some how rises beyond my expectations I would still have a problem. It would still be on one platform. Obsidian understood this and started working on a 360 version but Atari wouldn’t pay them so they stopped.
I would have released NWNs on the Xbox yesterday and gave away FR novels with the special edition. That’s how you reach the masses. A PS 3 port would have came months later. I’m sure a 360 port would have been expensive because of the nature of the toolkit. It would have to be dumb down or there would need to be a PC transfer option which Microsoft is not keen on for security reasons. However if they did it, if they pulled it off it would have as much hype as Fallout 3. I think it would sell at least half a million and a subsequent sequel would be even bigger and any future FRs releases on the PS 3 and the 360 would have a coattail to ride.
quote:
REVENGE OF EDIT, SON OF EDIT, BRIDE OF EDIT: Actually, we're straying into territories not necessarily related to D&D or FR as such. There's a forum whose main concerns, I suspect, would fit the discussion you're looking for precisely. Care for a link? If yes, I'll PM you.
Sure |
| Karzak |
Posted - 19 Apr 2008 : 19:28:09
I could link you to a review that explains, with beautiful and funny wit, why Oblivion is not only lacking, but is a game comprised entirely of lacks (in my opinion, anyway, and in the reviewer's). But since doing so - linking to something that explicitly answers your straightforward question - may be construed as a demonstration of the dreaded elitism, sarcasm and general unfriendliness, I'll settle with PMing you the review in question instead. You might even find it amusing. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 19 Apr 2008 : 18:41:51
Awright guys... say anything you want, but don't trash Oblivion!!! Oblivion is the best PC game I have ever played!!!
(sure, I liked Torment and Baldur's Gate... but Oblivion! I mean, what an awesome game!! how could you ever find it lacking?) |
| Karzak |
Posted - 19 Apr 2008 : 14:00:33
quote:
Originally posted by Rory
In some ways it is in some ways it isn’t. It all depends on individual perception and ideas. There certainly wasn’t anything like an Elder Scrolls game on a console before Morrowind. Jade Empire, Oblivion, Fable, and KOTOR, might not represent the point and click archetype but then again the Commodore 64 didn’t even have a gaming mouse.
What.
Oblivion and Morrowind are exercises in "what if you sell MMORPGs but make it singleplayer"; Jade Empire is a shallow action RPG set in Disneyland China (with storyline and characters recycled from KotOR); Fable is an overhyped piece of garbage that didn't even deliver on its creator's promises; KotOR is decent but thrives on the Star Wars license. Where are the console equivalents of Planescape: Torment, Vampires - The Masquerade: Bloodlines, the first two Fallouts, The Witcher even? Where are the console gamers who want thoughtful, complex RPGs?
quote:
You mentioned an expansion for a game that came out in 2006 and didn’t receive near the praise and accolades of Pool and Gate.
Because if it isn't hyped, it can't possibly be good. Gaming journalism has such amazing integrity, too.
quote:
Maybe I’m just a dreamer who longs to see Drizzt and Artemis squabbling in a fighting game,
...
REVENGE OF EDIT, SON OF EDIT, BRIDE OF EDIT: Actually, we're straying into territories not necessarily related to D&D or FR as such. There's a forum whose main concerns, I suspect, would fit the discussion you're looking for precisely. Care for a link? If yes, I'll PM you. |
| Rory |
Posted - 19 Apr 2008 : 11:08:18
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Well, both NWN games have tons of fan-made single-player modules for them, not just multi-player games. Also, employees of Bioware have mentioned many times that most people purchase those games solely for the included single-player game.
I’m aware of the single player mods. There are even a couple Pool of Radiance remakes. I found however that the multiplayer mods are where the fun is especially if you are gaming on a server with people who have a similar work schedule as yourself. I appreciate how Bioware responded to the critique of the single player game. They went out and grabbed Drew Karpyshyn for KOTOR. With ex-Blackisles folks I imagine NWNs 2 has a decent single player game but I haven’t toured the meat of the reviews yet because until recently I didn’t have a PC that could handle it.
quote:
Maybe not...but did you even play any of them? Expectations can be wrong, and the Baldur's Gate series was a product of its time. I wouldn't go looking for the "next Baldur's Gate", per se, mainly because it used a style (not to mention a ruleset) that's no longer modern.
Not to mention the fact that the BG series was, as far as I know, only ever a computer game series (and I'm talking about the Bhaalspawn saga, here, not the Dark Alliance games).
I have a pretty complex and rather geekish take on NWN 2. My expectations might be way off although almost all games end up exactly as I expect them to end up. I expect NWN to be a good game. It could be a great game if I had the time to DM but I have two young kids now and with the oldest and his mama double teaming me in Super Smash Brothers I only dont have time to create stuff myself.
I’m not looking for the next Baldurs Gate in terms of style I’m looking for the next Baldurs Gate to impact the industry with its greatness and include all those console gamers that are going to buy a million and a half copies of Fallout 3 in the process.
That said Baldurs Gate’s style isn’t old. I havent seen an RPG with better combat since the infinity engine died with Icewind Dale 2. I think the last Zelda on the DS and many other DS games would have truly benefited from the infinity engine’s style. I would love to play a Zelda game where I can point the Wii-mote or the DS stylist at one of 5 of Links chums and move them around Hyrule style. The most optimistic thing I can say on this topic is that Final Fantasy 12 appeared to be influenced by Knights of the old Republic, which was a poor mans version of Baldurs Gate. So Baldurs Gate is still the standard at least when it comes to combat.
Also I understand that BG was a PC exclusive and in a sense when you consider how dumb down and ill advertised Pool of Radiance was on the NES it kinda was a PC exclusive too. The industry has changed. If anyone outside of Japan wanted to sell an RPG in 88 they needed the PC and consoles did not matter. In 98 this was still true but I could see through my snobby PC fanboy glasses and understand that things were changing. Now they have changed and while I dont think they will change entirely and I wouldn’t say a PC exclusive needs a perfect storm to profit I cant fathom any reason why a Forgotten Realms game should be exclusive to any platform.
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| Rory |
Posted - 19 Apr 2008 : 09:47:05
quote:
Let me get this straight: you think Oblivion is representative of "PC style RPGs"?
In some ways it is in some ways it isn’t. It all depends on individual perception and ideas. There certainly wasn’t anything like an Elder Scrolls game on a console before Morrowind. Jade Empire, Oblivion, Fable, and KOTOR, might not represent the point and click archetype but then again the Commodore 64 didn’t even have a gaming mouse. Neither of those games sport 4 spiky haired anime kids taking turns slap boxing gun torrents for thousands of hit points. Before the Xbox a lot of folks thought that, that was the only way you could sell an RPG on a console. When Fable sold over a million I made 30 bucks off a bet.
quote:
Like... wildflower? What? I don't even get what you mean there, and at any rate, I'm sure Blizzard has a great time laughing at people who say or think PC exclusives don't make money.
I expect Starcraft 2 to sell like wildflower means I expect a natural unstoppable explosion. Big sells. Blizzard can laugh it up. Nothing like good ole arrogance in the videogame industry.
quote:
So you harp on - and on, and on, and on - that there're no FR RPGs, but when there are in fact some, you can't be bothered to play them because you must play things on your XBox? That's special.
You mentioned an expansion for a game that came out in 2006 and didn’t receive near the praise and accolades of Pool and Gate. At least you didn’t bring up Pool of Radiance 2. Again you missed my point. I would rather play the game on the 360 but seeing how I have a laptop that can run the game smoothly my preference for Xbox Live has very very very very very little to do with why I want to see big budget FRs RPGs on multiple platforms and why the setting isnt in the position to reach new fans through videogames like Pool of Radiance did for myself.
quote:
MORE HYPE PLZ MORE HYPE? You'll get along great with the designing team in charge of 4e FR.
You know how I learned about 4e D&D? I thought to myself.
“Self, isn’t it about time we had a new edition of D&D rules?”
I did a google search.
“Oh, looks like one is on the way.”
You know how I found out about 4e FRs?
youtube
That’s not the level of hype I’m talking about brother. I hate to say it but... I'm a lead tester who works with (330 gamers) and a lot more people know about FF 13, and Fallout 3 than 4e D&D and I have a hard time finding another Forgotten Realms fan. I was so relived to not be the first person at work to honor the passing of Gary Gygax.
Maybe I’m just a dreamer who longs to see Drizzt and Artemis squabbling in a fighting game, and original artistic Forgotten Realms games like a Bishocky Hillsfar love child etc etc. Maybe you have a right to jab me but I’ll tell you what, I was right about Interplay. I knew they ignored the console market to their own detriment. I knew a real IWD 2 port would have sold more than Fallout BoS. I just didn’t think it would sting them as bad and as quickly as it did.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 17:04:50
We could deal with a lot less sarcasm and elitism in this thread. Damp it down, or we're locking it. 
We're not here to attack each other or to show superiority over anyone else. Keep that in mind when replying to your fellow scribes, people. |
| Karzak |
Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 16:39:46
quote:
Originally posted by Rory
Its not that they don’t like western or PC style RPGs. A few will say that they prefer a game to have more structure than something like Oblivion but most of them see Oblivion as a phenomenal game. Obviously western RPGs have proven to be very marketable on consoles.
Let me get this straight: you think Oblivion is representative of "PC style RPGs"?
quote:
Its just that most gamers don’t have PCs that compete with the capabilities of the PS 3 and the 360. So even though it’s a great platform, Starcraft 2 will sell like widlflower, and its the home of most of my favorite RPGs its still one of six platforms.
Like... wildflower? What? I don't even get what you mean there, and at any rate, I'm sure Blizzard has a great time laughing at people who say or think PC exclusives don't make money.
quote:
Even though I only recently upgraded to a PC that could smoothly play NWN 2 I would rather play it on the 360 just because of the convenience with the friend’s list and the unified mic which trumps my need for a desk and keyboard because sadly I don’t have time to use the tool kit.
So you harp on - and on, and on, and on - that there're no FR RPGs, but when there are in fact some, you can't be bothered to play them because you must play things on your XBox? That's special.
quote:
I want something with Fable, Final Fantasy or Fallout 3 hype/budget.
MORE HYPE PLZ MORE HYPE? You'll get along great with the designing team in charge of 4e FR. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 14:42:53
quote:
Originally posted by Rory
NWN 1 was a terrible single player game but it did have unbounded and often addicting possibilities with multiplayer, and creativity.
Well, both NWN games have tons of fan-made single-player modules for them, not just multi-player games. Also, employees of Bioware have mentioned many times that most people purchase those games solely for the included single-player game.
quote:
I also dont see a NWN's expansion as the next great Baldurs Gate or Pool of Radiance level title.
Maybe not...but did you even play any of them? Expectations can be wrong, and the Baldur's Gate series was a product of its time. I wouldn't go looking for the "next Baldur's Gate", per se, mainly because it used a style (not to mention a ruleset) that's no longer modern.
Not to mention the fact that the BG series was, as far as I know, only ever a computer game series (and I'm talking about the Bhaalspawn saga, here, not the Dark Alliance games). |
| Rory |
Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 06:03:21
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
Hi, it's called Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer.
Oh, you're a console gamer? Too bad.
I’m just a gamer. With the exception of one PSP title we haven’t seen a D&D RPG on a console since Pool of Radiance. Even if I were an exclusive PC gamer I would take issue with that fact. It makes no sense to keep their signature genre on one of six platforms when counting the PC with the DS, PSP, PS 3, 360, and the Wii. I work in the console industry with a lot of young gamers and (I’m talking 18-30) and close to 8 of 10 see the PC as an internet browsing and/or World of Warcraft machine. Its not that they don’t like western or PC style RPGs. A few will say that they prefer a game to have more structure than something like Oblivion but most of them see Oblivion as a phenomenal game. Obviously western RPGs have proven to be very marketable on consoles. Its just that most gamers don’t have PCs that compete with the capabilities of the PS 3 and the 360. So even though it’s a great platform, Starcraft 2 will sell like widlflower, and its the home of most of my favorite RPGs its still one of six platforms.
Even though I only recently upgraded to a PC that could smoothly play NWN 2 I would rather play it on the 360 just because of the convenience with the friend’s list and the unified mic which trumps my need for a desk and keyboard because sadly I don’t have time to use the tool kit. I also dont see a NWN's expansion as the next great Baldurs Gate or Pool of Radiance level title. Even if I'm wrong it will be lost to a fraction of the market. I want something with Fable, Final Fantasy or Fallout 3 hype/budget.
My slight preference to play the game on the 360 or my expectations for Mask of the Betrayer isn’t a major issue what is important to me is that the setting broadens its audience. NWN 1 was a terrible single player game but it did have unbounded and often addicting possibilities with multiplayer, and creativity. What it did well it did well however this was lost to a fraction of the market. Its difficult for the setting to resonate and grow its fan base while only supporting one platform. Its not like they are getting a sweet Metal Gear deal to stick with one platform. I want the setting to have enough mainstream success to allow for larger budgets, riskier concepts like the old Hillsfar game, and more releases. I want to see them bump Square-Enix’s sorry tail off the top of the mountain. |
| Karzak |
Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 01:42:34
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
And yes, games of all types are supposed to be fun. I'd think that even most tabletop games don't get knee-deep into "realism" just for it's own sake, such as going to the bathroom, menstrual cramps once a month (for female PCs), etc.
I can see it now. "Roll save vs. fort to see if you can hold it in! Do a concentration check, can your sorceress overcome her cramp to cast Fireball?" Fun!
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
My sarcasm was result of Karzak being quite so condescending of my point of view.
It might have helped if you responded to what I actually said rather than what you imagined I said, though. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 01:38:31
Very simply: I stated that I play computer games for hack and slash and that is the extent of the fun I get out of them.
I realize they are different than table-top games...that is what I was saying.
My sarcasm was result of Karzak being quite so condescending of my point of view.
I happen to LOVE Ed's tiniest bit of lore...because those are the things that make a game fun.
As for Realism...I appreciate everyone's view on what is "too much" or what have you...my point was that if a Player WANTS to attack the wizard while he is sitting on the jon...then he can in a table-top game...THAT is what makes table-top RPGs better in my opinion than anything else out there right now...being able to TRY to do ANYTHING.
As simple as I can put it and the last I'm sure I will comment. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 18 Apr 2008 : 01:06:26
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I guess I just involve myself too much in my role-playing...perhaps I should focus on the "cool" and "fun" aspect of D&D and not worry about the little bity points eh?
That wasn't the point anyone's trying to make.
It's true that in a video game, there's not as much room for "improv" roleplaying, but the video game gives you things that a tabletop game can't give you, such as heavily detailed visual experience (I do consider that a real plus, not something to be derided as "eye candy").
And yes, games of all types are supposed to be fun. I'd think that even most tabletop games don't get knee-deep into "realism" just for it's own sake, such as going to the bathroom, menstrual cramps once a month (for female PCs), etc. Even in NWN1, there's apparently a module that implements hard-core "realism" that isn't even very realistic, such as always having to eat before resting (!). My opinion: in a game, fun should take priority over realism. |
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