| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 01 Apr 2008 : 17:09:01
I mean, I have asked many times - and I am not talking about just Drizzt.
They are a wonderful race for villians, have appeal in many aspects (yes, everyone knows I love Vierna), and I, personally, like them very much.
Is it that you think they're overexposed? Used to often? Don't like them killing all sorts of other races? Oppostion to an anti-mysogynistic race?
I just see a lot of hate at the race. It's almost like hating vanilla because it's the most popular flavor.
Plz tellz me y u haet drow, kk? I want to know, as I am positively curious.
C-Fb |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Halaster Blackcloak |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 08:12:21
I've loved the drow ever since I first laid eyes on them. Some of my favorite villains, and my all time favorite villain race. I don't hate Drizzt, although I quickly tired of RA Salvatore's formulaic writing of Drizzt and stopped reading it after the second trilogy. And while I never liked anything that came after 2E, I really liked that pic of Pharaun from the cover of the novel. Wicked character design!
In one of the games I played back in '83 or '84, the DM let me and a friend play a pair of drow, since we were both so enamored of the race. It was hard to play an evil character like that, and that particular campaign didn't last long, but man, was it fun!
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| Zanan |
Posted - 06 Apr 2008 : 12:16:43
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'm actually looking forward to the Pathfinder "Second Darkness" Adventure Path, because I want to see how they use the drow as villains in there. James Jacobs has said that they are really pushing to make them as degenerate and evil as they ever have been portrayed.
Well he/they did not want my material and reading the above, I don't know whether to be glad about that. A blood-soaked carbon copy of the Greyhawk drow is not something I had in mind. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Apr 2008 : 01:20:36
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I remember back in my 1st and 2nd edition games, my players used to cringe if a plot even remotely had anything to do with the drow, because they knew it would be nasty and dangerous to get involved in. They had a "kill on sight" standing order for drow.
That's how it should be, for drow. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 23:32:50
Which is basically how I handle drow in my game, still...even the PC drow priestess of Eilistraee has to play her ass off every time she is "discovered"...fun stuff |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 22:55:45
I'm actually looking forward to the Pathfinder "Second Darkness" Adventure Path, because I want to see how they use the drow as villains in there. James Jacobs has said that they are really pushing to make them as degenerate and evil as they ever have been portrayed.
I remember back in my 1st and 2nd edition games, my players used to cringe if a plot even remotely had anything to do with the drow, because they knew it would be nasty and dangerous to get involved in. They had a "kill on sight" standing order for drow. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 22:21:39
I just hate caraway... and that I can avoid 
even by throwing up  |
| Zanan |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 22:19:36
I think I need to think about the meaning of "overexposed" with regards to the drow a bit longer. If anything, they most likely hate being "overexposed" nearly as much as they hate their surface kin.
The drow are, IMHO, one of the finest tools a DM can use in his or her setting, an evil that can be omnipresent and yet so elusive. If they would finally get a decent enough deity going along with their already decent alignment, they could strike terror into the hearts of many player generations. If they need a deity at all, that is. As you can gather by the aforesaid ... I like my drow as the "evil monster" race. And I use them sparingly enough as well.
BTW, many people simply assume that novel quantity is a marker for in-setting power or appearances. Which is, of course, not the case, as we all know.
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| BlackAce |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 22:12:30
Ditto. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 00:47:40
And I think both Wooly and Faraer have ably covered how I feel about the drow, at present, as well. The over-exposure aspect of the race, which can indeed be partly attributed to the methods some fans and authors/designers use to underline the drow, has been impressed enough. As I've said many a time, 2002 was supposedly the "Year of the Drow" for WotC -- and yet, since that time, it's almost felt like every year afterward was related to some kind of drow-theme. It can become tiresome. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 00:42:26
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
As I said before, I like the drow, Drizzt, Liriel, Pharaun (who is one of my most favorite characters!).
I must admit, I did enjoy the character of Pharaun from the WotSQ books -- he's actually the only drow, besides Liriel, that I've had any interest in.
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| Faraer |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 00:34:09
I feel similar to many above. It's because I like the drow that I dislike what's been done to them by certain publishers, authors and fans. The ideas of hating them, or being loyal to them, are ridiculous category errors. |
| Marc |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 20:23:16
I hate the drow only cause the other potentially more interesting stuff doesn't get any or much less attention |
| Drakul |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 20:09:41
As everyone knows, I love the Drow. Hate Lloth. Love Vhaeraun. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 19:41:29
I like the drow as a race; they make excellent villains, and are a great dark reflection of elves.
As others have said, though, the overexposure and fanbois go a long way towards squashing any liking of the drow. I don't blame WotC for wanting to cash in on the drow, but I do blame them for going over the top with it. Looking at WotC's releases for the last few years, one might think that drow were either a dominant race or even the only race.
There's nothing wrong with keeping them in the spotlight, but the way WotC has done it has been problematic for 2 reasons: it has created an anti-drow backlash (mainly because of rabid fanbois and overexposure), and perhaps more importantly, the constant focus on the drow has kept there from being a focus on much of anything else.
So for me, it's not as much the over-use of drow in and of itself that is the issue, but the over-use of drow to the expense of other potential products/storylines that has irked me. |
| Caedwyr |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 18:25:09
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
...
jus cuz teh drow r liek teh best raece evar, iz no reazon 2 haet teh guiz. Driztt iz teh gratest!!!11!!one!!1!
Ow, that hurt to write.
C-Fb
No kidding. When "riting" my response I took three times as long as I had to constantly go back and "uncorrect" myself.
As a race of villains I don't mind them, though it bothers me when they are portrayed inconsistently. When I first encountered FR novels I read several by a number of authors that featured the Drow. From one book to the next the entire race was portrayed from being everything from elite super warriors to bumbling cannon fodder for a group of new adventurers.
I guess what I object to mostly is how often they are used as caricatures that don't really add anything to the story. This isn't an issue with Drow per say, just that they've been used as such more often than most other groups.
As presented in a number of Salvatore books as well as a number of excellent sourcebooks they can be a wonderful race for villains when venturing underground or as a group that raids a settlement and then disappears.
I liked Elaine Cunningham's look at their society in some of the earlier Liriel novels. It gave much more depth and a sense of a real lasting culture than had been shown in what I had read previously.
Edit: Corrected a typo. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 18:22:34
As I said before, I like the drow, Drizzt, Liriel, Pharaun (who is one of my most favorite characters!). What I don't like are people who come in here, make one stupid-arsed post referring to another website for those "loyal" to the drow, whatever that means, and leave again.
There is, however, the need to get back to other races as well, like dwarves, halflings and whatnot... too much of a good (in this case evil) thing and all that. |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 18:19:27
I agree with RF. I donīt hate the drow (they make excellent antagonists ), but I think that they are overexposed. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 18:08:35
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I know. We've had many a discussion about them. About the only thing I know you *dislike* is The Last Mythal series - but we've had our tiffs about that. 
C-Fb
*laughs* Indeed. |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 17:06:41
I know. We've had many a discussion about them. About the only thing I know you *dislike* is The Last Mythal series - but we've had our tiffs about that.
C-Fb |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 17:03:58
Well, I like the drow myself--I'm fond of the Promenade of Eilistraee and I have a drow monk who I love very much. So, I'm not saying I don't like the drow as a race. |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 16:59:50
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I agree they have been a bit overexposed, but why would you ever shelf something if it continues to be gobbled up by the public?
I don't think people actually expect that, even if they are annoyed by drow overexposure. Also, some people believe that other races that they enjoy (like the "short" races) haven't been given enough of a chance.
I totally understand what you are saying, and I know there is a lot to write about in each and everyone of those cultures. I just think if they have a limited slate, it hamstrings the other cultures, which are known not to be as popular.
I have always been a Drow enthusiast; back when they showed up in the FF. I think their evoluation has been particularly pushed by Mr. Salvatore. But I do respect all of your opinions on the matter. :)
C-Fb |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 16:00:13
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I agree they have been a bit overexposed, but why would you ever shelf something if it continues to be gobbled up by the public?
I don't think people actually expect that, even if they are annoyed by drow overexposure. Also, some people believe that other races that they enjoy (like the "short" races) haven't been given enough of a chance. |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 15:34:22
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
CFB long time no post I actually like the drow, even Drizzt..... Scererar ducks for cover
Well, I should be around here more often, as it has been a long time I've actually had the pleasure to discuss the Realms with fellow players. And, since my days of playing WoW have changed me in a good way, I shall write to you from that world:
jus cuz teh drow r liek teh best raece evar, iz no reazon 2 haet teh guiz. Driztt iz teh gratest!!!11!!one!!1!
Ow, that hurt to write.
As for the Drow, I just think a lot of people have this seething hatred for Salvatore and all of his works. I think it's a bit disturbing as Ed had no problem giving that allowance to him. I have also really enjoyed Lisa Smedmen's books with the deicide and The Lady Penitent.
I agree they have been a bit overexposed, but why would you ever shelf something if it continues to be gobbled up by the public?
And by this - I am not telling people they should like Drow. :) Just was curious as to why I find so much dislike, or annoyance, on this site.
C-Fb |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 14:43:16
quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr
i dohnt h8 teh drow butt i do feal they hve bean overxposed + bean inc0nsistently portrade things stop beeing specal or interesting if they r used two much. also R.A. Salvatore coms of as a bit of a hack fantasy riter who is always beeing pushed especially compared too other realms riters. As sum1 said, hes done whell fore a sword fight comentator.
 I especially enjoy the Drizzt fans who don't even know how to spell the name "Drizzt" (and I really like it when they spell it several different ways in the same paragraph). |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 13:37:36
I don't care much about the drow one way or the other, good villains and interesting in Eds Drows of the Underdark, but nothing more than that. They are overexposed though; I prefer to keep them as a hidden half-mythical threat. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 13:08:10
And I still hate caraway...always will |
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 11:24:04
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak:
I see you're not familiar with Trekkies.
I am afraid my better angels have failed to prevent me from replying thusly: are you implying something negative about the almighty Trek? If so, I must challenge you to a duel, to be conducted in the traditional nerd manner: a slap fight.
In all seriousness, and addressing the point at had (i.e. hatred of the Drow), I think the vitrol spewed towards the Drow by certain elements of the RPG community is a by-product of an all-to-common cycle that seems to befall those things that become popular, especially when the internet is involved. First, something becomes popular, second as its fanbase grows it gains a particularly vocal and slavish segment of fans, often called fanboys or fanbois, who proceed to crow loudly and immaturely about that thing to which they have pledged their devotion, often in adversarial and illogical manners (i.e. Drow are cool because they are Drow, and therefore anything that isn't Drow cannot be cool or in any way superior). This rabid, yet vocal, minority then promptly generates a backlash resulting in the vocal haters who this thread seems to be concerned with, who promptly employ similarly immature, nonspecific, illogical and immature arguments to support their position that, in this case, Drow suck and they hate them.
This all too common cycle seems to be a natural evolution of the extremes of supporters and detractors, one typically developing as a result of the development of the other. Now one might complain I am being too general in saying that all who hate Drow fall into this extreme category of irrational haters, but it is my opinion that short of as a rhetorical flourish one cannot use hate to describe a rational dislike of the fictitious Drow race. Thus while some may dislike the concept or execution of the Drow, to hate them puts one into a category not unlike the extreme devoutees, one predicated not out of any particular reason but rather as a response to the fanbois one finds so annoying, hating what they adore not because you necessarily dislike it but because they in fact adore it, loudly and rudely, much as the fanbois like it not for any particular reason than it is popular or cool.
Of course the vast majority of people fall into the middle area liking and disliking things for various reasons they make apparant, disliking Drow perhaps because they find them one-dimensional pantomimes of evil or liking them for the same reason. In this respect one can find a myriad of reason too numerous to list here why one might not like the Drow. One might find their concept unappealing, their execution uninspired or the course taken with them by the designer and authors in contradiction to how you thought they should have been developed.
Perhaps I am mincing words with this, but I think its important to distinguish between those who like or dislike the Drow for reasons other than because they are popular. So, in my opinion, the Drow inspire this hate in large part due to the fact they are popular, because there will always be people who hate things that are popular. They will be hated for not being in keeping with one's mental vision of them, they will be hated for being developed too much or not enough. Pick a reason, it'll apply.
For my part, I harbor no ill will towards the Drow. Like practically every concept proffered by the D&D designers over these many years it has had its applications in my campaign and has inspired various adventures. Any distaste I have related to the Drow is directed, for my part, towards the way in which Wizards converted them int the sacred cash cow of Third Edition, a point I have made many times before, and the poor presentation and over-saturation this resulted in. Of course this view, not unlike this post, is an opinion, and one limited by both my own experience and perspective. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 04:32:34
Drow are overexposed but great |
| Karzak |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 04:11:54
quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr
@Karzak: For Jim Butcher I was refering to his Codex Alera series and not the Dresden series.
Fair enough; I haven't read those. I picked up Storm Front, finished it, and tossed it away. Found it unbelievably bland.
quote:
With regards to J.K. Rowling her novels are widely considered some of the top children's fantasy literature in a long while, and they cover some deeper subject matter especially as the series gets towards the end. Either way, I'd still argue that they are better fantasy novels/series than most of what R.A. Salvatore has done.
Eh, I'd put them at roughly the same level. JK Rowling tries to tackle "deeper" subject matter, sure, but trying isn't enough, or you should think Salvatore's ham-fisted handling of racism is literary gold. In fact, as the HP series progresses, it goes steadily downhill: the themes may seem more mature, but I'd say the author doesn't have the skills to pull them off. I'd classify the series from book five onward as complete drivel, and its continuing popularity is only a triumph of commercial phenomenon, nothing more. (And if you think popularity is an indication of quality, well, Salvatore is a New York Times bestseller, and there're talentless hacks like Christopher Paolini...) |
| Caedwyr |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 03:50:54
@Karzak: For Jim Butcher I was refering to his Codex Alera series and not the Dresden series. With regards to J.K. Rowling her novels are widely considered some of the top children's fantasy literature in a long while, and they cover some deeper subject matter especially as the series gets towards the end. Either way, I'd still argue that they are better fantasy novels/series than most of what R.A. Salvatore has done. |
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