| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| lycurgus33 |
Posted - 08 Mar 2008 : 06:14:17
How many gods in the Forgotten Realms have been killed off since 1st edition? Feel free to include gods that are going to get killed when 4th edition comes out.
I bet it's beginning to look like the final scene of "The Wild Bunch" at this point.
Perhaps someone will kill off Ao by goading him to appear on a really tall wall and casting a Push spell on him. :P |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 15:37:29
quote:
Originally posted by Kheris
Not in the least, I only remember them because of all the times they came to *ahem* detain my character after summoning a few hundred skeletons in Beregost.
What?? Like you never wanted an ant farm for skeletons! 
Nice. 
quote:
Originally posted by Kheris
As far as polytheistic temples, I made some up based on mini-pantheons. This way my players could find a temple to the Triad, or one to a group of deities popular in a given area, so they might find a temple to Lathander and Chauntea in a farming community, and so on.
Yep, that's how I see it. Priests of deities who's dogma's don't conflict would be more able to serve the community in a central space, rather than several different temples.
It also provides a wealth of intrigue and it makes infiltration of the church by opposing forces make more sense, IMO. |
| Kheris |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 14:57:35
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Kheris
Are you thinking of the Flaming Fist Mercenaries?
I loves me some BG and BG2
Yes sir, that'd be the one.
It's kinda lame that I remember Duke Eltan's name but not the Flaming Fist's. 
Not in the least, I only remember them because of all the times they came to *ahem* detain my character after summoning a few hundred skeletons in Beregost.
What?? Like you never wanted an ant farm for skeletons!
As far as polytheistic temples, I made some up based on mini-pantheons. This way my players could find a temple to the Triad, or one to a group of deities popular in a given area, so they might find a temple to Lathander and Chauntea in a farming community, and so on. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 14:50:15
quote:
Originally posted by Kheris
Are you thinking of the Flaming Fist Mercenaries?
I loves me some BG and BG2
Yes sir, that'd be the one.
It's kinda lame that I remember Duke Eltan's name but not the Flaming Fist's. |
| Kheris |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 14:43:13
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
You don't cross an ocean to spread your religion, get there, and decide to accept the native gods. That's just silly.
Was that ever stated as the point of the Helmites accompanying . . . was it . . . damn. . . that Baulder's Gate merc band. . . wow, brain freeze.
Anyhow, was that ever stated? Because. . . well. . . I was always of the impression that the Helmites were the clerical support and not missionaries.
Are you thinking of the Flaming Fist Mercenaries?
I loves me some BG and BG2 |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 14:18:40
quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
You don't cross an ocean to spread your religion, get there, and decide to accept the native gods. That's just silly.
Was that ever stated as the point of the Helmites accompanying . . . was it . . . damn. . . that Baulder's Gate merc band. . . wow, brain freeze.
Anyhow, was that ever stated? Because. . . well. . . I was always of the impression that the Helmites were the clerical support and not missionaries.
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| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 14:06:04
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Because, as Ed Greenwood has said, almost everyone in the Realms is polytheistic and worships more than one god--even clerics. Everyone (even clerics) knows all the other gods exist and have power, even if they are not inclined to worship them. There are clerics who would take the view that you mention, but they would be considered fanatics.
Yep, that's why Cyric's "I'm the one and all" is considered insane.
Further, for most of the mortals in Faerun, the Gods have their specific places. You're not going to pray to Helm to aid your crops growth (might pray to him to aid in watching your flock of sheep though) nor are they going to pray to Chauntea to gain aid in a merchantile endeavor.
I certainly understand that this is a difficult way to think but it's the way the Realms work.
In fact, I really don't like the idea of a single Gods church, I don't really have the time but hopefully, at some point, I'll put together a different church structure because. . . I just don't agree with a single temple for a single god in a polytheistic culture (of course there would be exceptions, but they'd be the exceptions, not the rule) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 13:29:44
quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
In any case, I think it was doubly appropriate in the Douglas Niles books because it mirrors how missionaries worked in the real world. You don't cross an ocean to spread your religion, get there, and decide to accept the native gods. That's just silly.
That was never a part of my argument though.
I'm not a fan of Realmslore that is based so tightly on real world history. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 13:27:21
quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
I have often wondered why more cleric's didn't take a stricter, "my faith is the true faith" perspective.
Because, as Ed Greenwood has said, almost everyone in the Realms is polytheistic and worships more than one god--even clerics. Everyone (even clerics) knows all the other gods exist and have power, even if they are not inclined to worship them. There are clerics who would take the view that you mention, but they would be considered fanatics. |
| Ranak |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 07:16:03
I thought the portrayal of Helm as monotheistic by Douglas Niles was fantastic. I have often wondered why more cleric's didn't take a stricter, "my faith is the true faith" perspective. The churches compete for followers, it is not like the Greek pantheon, where you might switch god's just moving to the next city, etc. True there is a fuzzy area with groups, like the triad, etc.
In any case, I think it was doubly appropriate in the Douglas Niles books because it mirrors how missionaries worked in the real world. You don't cross an ocean to spread your religion, get there, and decide to accept the native gods. That's just silly.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
If Helm's church was portrayed as monotheistic in a bunch of novels, I would prefer to chalk that up to bad writing.
And considering how Helm and his followers are often made out as bad guys in the work of Douglas Niles, I do not trust that author as an authoritative, objective source on Helm's Church. That might sound mean, but that's how I think.
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| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 23:09:34
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That does make perfect sense - he was still in the Outer Planes and had all of his divine power, so why wouldn't he have been granting spells to his followers? 
Unless Ao ordered him not to...
That alone could have lead to Helm's church becoming more 'Monotheistic' in its outlook, as was depicted in the Maztica books.
I agree that he should have had the ability to grant spells at that time but I wouldn't be shocked if he didn't, or if AO told him not to grant spells.
I didn't read the actual Maztican books, just the boxed set (unless that's what you are referring to), so I can't say much about the monotheistic stance his church took but I wouldn't be surprised if his clerics in Maztica went a little monotheistic due to the lack of other divine representation in Maztica. Of course I'd think that'd have promoted quite a bit of friction in the forces in Maztica, but that's not here or there.
If Helm's church was portrayed as monotheistic in a bunch of novels, I would prefer to chalk that up to bad writing.
And considering how Helm and his followers are often made out as bad guys in the work of Douglas Niles, I do not trust that author as an authoritative, objective source on Helm's Church. That might sound mean, but that's how I think. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 23:06:20
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
the thing is, many of them were mortals before they ascended to godhood.
That doesn't mean they remain human-like after receiving godhood. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 21:52:48
Aye, the passage I was thinking about was the one, now that I had some time to look at different books, which is in F&A, was where it says he kept his powers. I don't recall if there was more then that about his clergy. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 19:26:31
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That does make perfect sense - he was still in the Outer Planes and had all of his divine power, so why wouldn't he have been granting spells to his followers?
Unless Ao ordered him not to...
That alone could have lead to Helm's church becoming more 'Monotheistic' in its outlook, as was depicted in the Maztica books.
I agree that he should have had the ability to grant spells at that time but I wouldn't be shocked if he didn't, or if AO told him not to grant spells.
I didn't read the actual Maztican books, just the boxed set (unless that's what you are referring to), so I can't say much about the monotheistic stance his church took but I wouldn't be surprised if his clerics in Maztica went a little monotheistic due to the lack of other divine representation in Maztica. Of course I'd think that'd have promoted quite a bit of friction in the forces in Maztica, but that's not here or there. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 19:03:30
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I could have swore, but I don't have the time to check right now, that there was a passage about Helm and his clergy in the Time of Troubles modules. I vaguely, again but I didn't check, recall passages stating that his clergy were not effected like the other clergy were.
That does make perfect sense - he was still in the Outer Planes and had all of his divine power, so why wouldn't he have been granting spells to his followers?
Unless Ao ordered him not to...
That alone could have lead to Helm's church becoming more 'Monotheistic' in its outlook, as was depicted in the Maztica books. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 17:08:55
Regarding Helm and the ToT, AFAIK he kept his powers, but it was not about deities keeping their powers which caused the mayhem. it was that magic and the Weave itself was unpredictable. Hence, every spell cast by anyone was liable to failure. Which is something that has not yet been clarified with regards to the Spellplague, of course. The effect is essentially the same and, lest I forget, it makes no sense that the wizards et al did not get the same changes and abilities which they get now, of course. I mean, it took Szass Tam and his lot about a couple of days to work out how it goes post-Mystra ... |
| Kuje |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 14:44:55
I could have swore, but I don't have the time to check right now, that there was a passage about Helm and his clergy in the Time of Troubles modules. I vaguely, again but I didn't check, recall passages stating that his clergy were not effected like the other clergy were.
But until I can look at the modules or sourcebook, I could be wrong. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 14:39:24
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
the thing is, many of them were mortals before they ascended to godhood.
That doesn't really matter at all though. They've gone from being a mortal to being a god. A god is a being of plurality and has VAST resources and is VASTLY superior to mortals. While at one time Azuth was just a mage, he's become FAR more than any mortal mage. He's been around for thousands of years (I'm pretty sure it's thousands) and he's a frickin god.
Like I said, I have enough trouble believing the writing done for elven characters, much less dragons and lichs and the like. Gods I just can't do, I find it impossible to suspend that much disbelief.
And I'm a-ok with non-perfect gods. I'm even a-ok with relatively stupid gods.
Heh, I'm startin to feel a little like Mace here, so I'll stop. |
| Aravine |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 14:09:40
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
[Dang, I just really, REALLY hope they lay off writing about the Gods actions and their intentions.
I agree. Sometimes I'd rather not know about the thought processes of a god, nor do I usually enjoy seeing them become too humanized.
the thing is, many of them were mortals before they ascended to godhood. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 13:34:58
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
I just don't believe that deities can be written about by humans without the portrayal being. . . well. . . stupid, IMO.
Yes, that's exactly the problem. Much of the time (not all the time, but much of the time) when deities are actual characters, they come off as incompetent. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 12:23:38
quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
...
...
Anyhow, one of my biggest problems with deities in the Realms is that they are both nearly impossible to kill and frighteningly easy to kill.
I think this problem is settled in 4ed. In the first post spellplague novel I have read, a character actually summons and binds a greater god with a ritual. I won't give too much away, but that says a lot about how power levels have changed between editions.
Really? A character binds a greater god?
I'll have to give it a read myself, but my first impression is "WTH??? That's frickin stupid!!! That's. . . that's . . . that's just frickin stupid!!!!!" |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 12:21:14
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
[Dang, I just really, REALLY hope they lay off writing about the Gods actions and their intentions.
I agree. Sometimes I'd rather not know about the thought processes of a god, nor do I usually enjoy seeing them become too humanized.
I just don't believe that deities can be written about by humans without the portrayal being. . . well. . . stupid, IMO. In fact, I'd rather not see the thought process of beings over 10,000 years old. Even Elves are a stretch for me, I have to disregard any personal opinion on the effects of a several century long life and say "Well, it is a game and I should just enjoy playing the game."
There are two authors who's views on Elves I've actually liked (read: they were different from humans!). That's two out of. . . a lot.
There has been one or two scenes about Gods that I've enjoyed. The rest . . . not so much. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 12:17:12
Wow, that is a great catch though Alisttair. I don't know that it's ever been written.
Personally, I'd assume that Helm would be clever enough to know what a bright beacon that'd make his followers. Though that could have advantages too.
Good catch though. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 11:31:42
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Did Clerics of Helm have full spell access during the ToT??? I forget!
I can't find anything that says they did or didn't... I'd assume they didn't, because that kind of thing would have been a rather noteworthy exception. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 11:13:14
Did Clerics of Helm have full spell access during the ToT??? I forget! |
| Ranak |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 05:04:24
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
...
...
Anyhow, one of my biggest problems with deities in the Realms is that they are both nearly impossible to kill and frighteningly easy to kill.
I think this problem is settled in 4ed. In the first post spellplague novel I have read, a character actually summons and binds a greater god with a ritual. I won't give too much away, but that says a lot about how power levels have changed between editions. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 23:53:10
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
[Dang, I just really, REALLY hope they lay off writing about the Gods actions and their intentions.
I agree. Sometimes I'd rather not know about the thought processes of a god, nor do I usually enjoy seeing them become too humanized. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 21:19:31
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
in the FRCS, it says something like "since it was helm that barred the way to the deities domain's most of what occured was laid at his feet."
not out of character, exactly, but... let's just say if something that enormous was blamed on a mortal, they would most likely be exucuted
Well, the Gods certainly know better, Helm was just security, if there was someone to be blamed it'd be AO.
Mortals, now they do blame Helm, though I've often wondered just how mortals are supposed to know that Helm KO'd Mystra to create the Helmlands. . . but. . . well. . . that's just me I guess.
I see what you're saying but I don't really agree with how the FRCS presents that information, it just smacks of wrong to me. If you read the avatar series, or just that part in particular, you'll see that while there were probably gods that were pissed that Helm played gatekeeper there weren't any who wanted him to even be punished for that.
Of course I think Helm got the metashaft. I don't think the Gods would blame him, nor do I think it'd be widely known that he was the gatekeeper during the ToT.
Dang, I just really, REALLY hope they lay off writing about the Gods actions and their intentions. Have a blast with Exarchs, have a blast with the Churchs and the heads of the Churchs but please, please leave the Gods out of it. |
| Aravine |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 21:10:01
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
well, if the Tot is Idiotic, ummm...drawing a blank. that's the thing I was referring to.
Well, what'd Helm do during the ToT that was out of character? While I'm not a big fan of the ToT I think that they did a good job with Helm in that story line. I don't see why his actions during the ToT would be viewed in any sort of negative light.
Care to expand on why you think his actions during the ToT were deserving of death?
in the FRCS, it says something like "since it was helm that barred the way to the deities domain's most of what occured was laid at his feet."
not out of character, exactly, but... let's just say if something that enormous was blamed on a mortal, they would most likely be exucuted
I'm not trying to be standoffish, I'm just curious. (just in case this is coming across as harsh  )
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| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 17:24:54
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
well, if the Tot is Idiotic, ummm...drawing a blank. that's the thing I was referring to.
Well, what'd Helm do during the ToT that was out of character? While I'm not a big fan of the ToT I think that they did a good job with Helm in that story line. I don't see why his actions during the ToT would be viewed in any sort of negative light.
Care to expand on why you think his actions during the ToT were deserving of death?
I'm not trying to be standoffish, I'm just curious. (just in case this is coming across as harsh ) |
| Aravine |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 16:58:27
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
You know, I'm kind of surprised no one has jumped to defend Helm the Everwatchful. Does everyone think he had it coming?
Alright, alright.
I'll bite.
Why did he have it coming?
I'll add a challenge.
Why did he have it coming outside of idiotic plot devices he suffered from?
I'd appreciate an answer for both, because I'm guessing they'll be different.
well, if the Tot is Idiotic, ummm...drawing a blank. that's the thing I was referring to. |
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