| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 08:31:18
This from the Associated Press, by way of my local paper:
Hasbro posts 24% profit boost in Q4
Yes, despite our complaints, Hasbro's profits went from a meager $1.1 billion dollars to $1.3 billion dollars.
Do they give a flying monkey's little red jacket about what we think of their mangling of the Forgotten Realms. Hells, no! To quote Weber and Rice: "The money keeps rollin' on in, rollin' on in, rollin' on in!"
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 22:56:10
But if fans of the setting start turning away, then novel sales will drop. If novel sales drop, and D&D tanks (or at least starts to plummet), then the IP won't look so 'tastey' to video-game developers, and they may take their game engines elsewhere.
Can you imagine a year or two from now Bioware takes there NWN engine and uses it with Golarion? I doubt that will happen, buuut...
They'll have to develop a NEW engine based around the 4e rules, whereas the old (and still pretty) game-engine just needs to be tweaked to run Golarion/Pathfinder games.
In fact, its only a matter of time before the modding cottage industry starts making Golarion Mods for NWN. 
I wonder if there is an 'exclusivity' clause in Bioware's license agreement? It wouldn't hurt them at all to license-out their old engine (now that they won't be using it) to another developer, who can do more 3e/D20 games with it. |
| Neil |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 16:16:54
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But seriously, to say D&D has ANY impact on those figures is ridiculous - Hasbro DID NOT aquire WotC for D&D, they did it for Pokemon and MtG cards.
We are just an 'after thought', that can be cancelled for 'insufficient returns' at any given time. That means 4e may just very well be the last anyone sees of D&D if it tanks.
In a way, that puts us gamers up against a wall - it's almost a "buy it, or watch it die" ultimatum.
Another reply to an old message, Mark... sorry for digging up old corpses again, and I think that's the best metaphor to use here...
Personally, given your hypothesized ultimatum, I'll pick door #2. They can't confiscate my old edition material, and if they *do* drop it entirely if it tanks, hopefully Paizo and Pathfinder will pick it up. Otherwise, any material I need, I can make up, which is something that Ed has been telling us to do since the Old Grey Box anyway. As I've said elsewhere on these boards, Wizbro just decided that the can[n]on needed to be fired, regardless of the size of the cluster of people it was pointed at, and so they lit the fuse and shut their eyes tightly... but that's how I see it. Giving money to a corporation is like giving matches and gasoline to a pyromaniac; don't do it if you care at all about the consequences. Ideally, Wizards would drop FR after Eberron 4E comes out and all the Eberron fans flock back to it from the bastardized Eberron clone that Wizbro has created, and Paizo would pick it up and give Ed carte blanche as creative director. However, the world we live in is far from ideal, so I will settle for not giving Wizbro any more of my money. [/rant] (And yes, I'm pro-euthanasia, and the 4E Realms needs our help.)
I think there's some degree of wishful thinking in this post. I don't think it's very likely at all that Wizards will ever 'drop' D&D or the Realms. They are intellectual property, and profitable intellectual property at that. Even if you completely discount the pen and paper/miniatures gaming sales, you still have people buying Neverwinter Nights video games and novels about the Realms. D&D is intellectual property, and only a very stupid company ever lets intellectual property out of their grasp these days. I'm not the biggest fan of Wizards, especially in the wake of 4e, but they're not stupid.
Things are similar in the comic book industry. The industry takes hits left and right and their best days are behind them, but ultimately they'll keep printing in some capacity, because the purpose of the comic books is to develop intellectual properties for the movies. The movies are where the real money gets made. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 07:22:41
I would agree with you there, Hawkins... have you checked out the Pathfinder beta yet? I like what I've seen so far; I just wish it would arrive earlier than next summer. Also, there's apparently a Realms web project to create an alternate future for the Realms that evades the 4E RSE; the original post address is here: http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-977444. I hope this is of use. I saw a few familiar names from these boards in the message thread. Anyway, that's all I have right now. I'm going to check out the website tonight and see if things got off the ground.
Edit: Heh. I must be tired. I've been there before. It's a good site, looks well done. And yes, they have announced their support for Pathfinder there too. [/edit] |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 00:08:31
And now we have have the Pathfinder RPG, which is a revised 3.5 edition and made by Paizo, a company that seems to actually care about its customers. Of course, they have not sold out to a mega-corporation yet either. That seems to be the point at which most companies seem to stop caring about their customers. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 23:32:43
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But seriously, to say D&D has ANY impact on those figures is ridiculous - Hasbro DID NOT aquire WotC for D&D, they did it for Pokemon and MtG cards.
We are just an 'after thought', that can be cancelled for 'insufficient returns' at any given time. That means 4e may just very well be the last anyone sees of D&D if it tanks.
In a way, that puts us gamers up against a wall - it's almost a "buy it, or watch it die" ultimatum.
Another reply to an old message, Mark... sorry for digging up old corpses again, and I think that's the best metaphor to use here...
Personally, given your hypothesized ultimatum, I'll pick door #2. They can't confiscate my old edition material, and if they *do* drop it entirely if it tanks, hopefully Paizo and Pathfinder will pick it up. Otherwise, any material I need, I can make up, which is something that Ed has been telling us to do since the Old Grey Box anyway. As I've said elsewhere on these boards, Wizbro just decided that the can[n]on needed to be fired, regardless of the size of the cluster of people it was pointed at, and so they lit the fuse and shut their eyes tightly... but that's how I see it. Giving money to a corporation is like giving matches and gasoline to a pyromaniac; don't do it if you care at all about the consequences. Ideally, Wizards would drop FR after Eberron 4E comes out and all the Eberron fans flock back to it from the bastardized Eberron clone that Wizbro has created, and Paizo would pick it up and give Ed carte blanche as creative director. However, the world we live in is far from ideal, so I will settle for not giving Wizbro any more of my money. [/rant] (And yes, I'm pro-euthanasia, and the 4E Realms needs our help.) |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 19:09:43
Hear, hear!
Then again, I ranted about this and that...and might do again... |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 17:27:10
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Disliking the changes is not being unrealistic. They could have made the necessary changes without making the setting unrecognizable.
Indeed. It's not about people disliking change, it's really about the scope of the changes.
I agree. It's also about the methods they used. Mace already ranted about the stupidity in the deaths of Mystra and Helm.
I mean, if there's one thing WotC should not be lacking in, it's creativity. With all their designers and writers, they should've came up with a much better storyline or explanation to waste away the gods and make the transition to 4E a lot smoother. I guess I can stand the deaths of the deities and even the Spellplague, but what I really hated was the jump in timeline. This ends up doing away 90% of my favourite characters. Unless WotC decided to make Danilo Thann become a baelnorn to keep him around, which is going to piss me off even more...
In talking about change, there's good change and bad change. In this case, the bad clearly outweighs the good. Oh, I can see this as something that might draw in new fans, but is it worth it to negate the older fans (who, btw, are much larger in number than any amount of new fans they're going to get)? I don't think so. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 16:05:26
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Disliking the changes is not being unrealistic. They could have made the necessary changes without making the setting unrecognizable.
Indeed. It's not about people disliking change, it's really about the scope of the changes. |
| StarBog |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 15:19:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
Yes, we all have an incredible emotional attachment to the Realms, but if we all step back and be realistic about it, at the end of the day Hasbro will either want to keep the money rolling in, or abandon the Realms altogether.
Disliking the changes is not being unrealistic. They could have made the necessary changes without making the setting unrecognizable.
Oh, I agree. Sorry if it wasn't clear. Most of the changes being made (especially the Sellplague) are nothing more than a gratuitous kick in the teeth. Personally, from what I have seen, my reaction to the changes is pretty much abhorance. The only thing that is preventing me from making a decision to already walk away entirely from 4e (months before it is published!) is the calibre of some of the authors involved in it.
Putting my cynical hat back on (hey, I'm British, we're born with 'em), I suspect that what is happening now is simply the logical consequences of what happens when IP such as the Realms gets handed over, via a seeming everlasting-contract-of-doom, to a company that feels that it must reinvent the wheel every decade or so to maintain its bottom line. Imagine if New Line had insisted on Gandalf being a woman in the LOTR films before agreeing to finance them?
None of the above is casting any aspersions upon Ed or anyone - I'm sure he'll be the first to agree that, for him and everyone else a published Realms, no matter how imperfect, is better than an unpublished Realms, even if it was via said everlasting-contract-of-doom.
All the best,
Starbog
|
| Karzak |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 14:58:28
Hmm, I could've sworn it was quoted on EnWorld, but apparently not - EnWorld only has somebody mumbling about Warcraft hybrid classes, so maybe I'm mistaken and confusing a general impression with actual statements. |
| StarBog |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 12:24:28
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
This isn't really the time or place to discuss Wow....but....
Changing Reputation Levels necessary for Heroic Dungeons, Removing the need for Attunements, Adding Badge Gear equivalent to Tier 5/6 Gear, Adding Arenas.....these are just some of the many things that Blizzard has done for the 'masses' (see the storms over 'Welfare Epics' for example).
From a purely selfish point of view, those are probably good things. Free epics! Cool new powers!
But. They were done purely to please said masses and to keep money from said masses rolling in.
Oh, I see, when you said "nelf huntards", you meant "scrubs" or possibly "casual gamers." Are you a hardcore raider decked out in T6 with Ilidan on farm?
No, I wasn't a raider. When I quit WoW a while back, I only had some T4 and some arena gear on my main.
My reference to NE Hunters (not "huntards" - that was someone else) was due to the fact that on the Server I was on (Argent Dawn EU), prior to TBC, NE Hunters alone outnumbered the entire Horde population - they're the stereotypical Joe Bloggs Man-On-The-Street WoW Player. Just like the average bloke playing DnD isn't interested in the Forgotten Realms. It is these average blokes (and bloke-esses) that Habrso (and Blizzard) get most of their money from.
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
quote:
On a somewhat related note, I borrowed a friend's Classes and Races preview last night and had a quick read through - and the whole thing smells of MMOs. Again, maybe not a bad thing per se (apart from the sheer predominance of spikey armour), but obviously an attempt to cash in on the whole MMO craze of the last few years.
Some designer or another has come out and stated as much - even specifying that they want to draw in the WoW crowd.
Yeah, I heard that as well somewhere. Can't remember where though. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 11:51:35
I second that Wooly...would like to see that statement. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 11:15:17
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
Some designer or another has come out and stated as much - even specifying that they want to draw in the WoW crowd.
Do you have a link to where that statement was made? We've speculated about that so much that I would really like to see that statement. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 11:13:47
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
Yes, we all have an incredible emotional attachment to the Realms, but if we all step back and be realistic about it, at the end of the day Hasbro will either want to keep the money rolling in, or abandon the Realms altogether.
Disliking the changes is not being unrealistic. They could have made the necessary changes without making the setting unrecognizable. |
| Karzak |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 11:13:41
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
This isn't really the time or place to discuss Wow....but....
Changing Reputation Levels necessary for Heroic Dungeons, Removing the need for Attunements, Adding Badge Gear equivalent to Tier 5/6 Gear, Adding Arenas.....these are just some of the many things that Blizzard has done for the 'masses' (see the storms over 'Welfare Epics' for example).
From a purely selfish point of view, those are probably good things. Free epics! Cool new powers!
But. They were done purely to please said masses and to keep money from said masses rolling in.
Oh, I see, when you said "nelf huntards", you meant "scrubs" or possibly "casual gamers." Are you a hardcore raider decked out in T6 with Ilidan on farm?
quote:
On a somewhat related note, I borrowed a friend's Classes and Races preview last night and had a quick read through - and the whole thing smells of MMOs. Again, maybe not a bad thing per se (apart from the sheer predominance of spikey armour), but obviously an attempt to cash in on the whole MMO craze of the last few years.
Some designer or another has come out and stated as much - even specifying that they want to draw in the WoW crowd. |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 10:42:06
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
[1] Heh, first post and I'm already thinking of myself as part of Candlekeep
You are--everyone is welcome here.
Seconded, welcome aboard! And as for the not voting part, so to speak, I wholeheartedly agree. if you disagree with the changes and still buy the product WOTC has what it wanted your cash!
Ahem. To return to our rothé ... that's why I spent hour upon agonizing hour yesterday with a 50 kbs connection purging all 4.$$$$$$ selections from my Amazon recommendations list. Now they think that I should play Warhammer, which is fine with me since this Shadow-whatever-the-Nine-Hells-they-call-it is nothing but a rip-off of the chaos lands in the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplayng game. I'm voting with my dollars. And brutha, if you could see my Amazon and eBay bills, you'd know that's no idle threat.
Bah! I may just crank up the old Imsai and play a game of chess!
|
| StarBog |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 10:13:38
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
Just as Blizzard have done with all the changes they've made to Wow to please the legions of Night Elf Hunters called "Legolaz" that make up most of their customer base.
Tell me, precisely what adjustments has Blizzard made to please night elf huntards?
This isn't really the time or place to discuss Wow....but....
Changing Reputation Levels necessary for Heroic Dungeons, Removing the need for Attunements, Adding Badge Gear equivalent to Tier 5/6 Gear, Adding Arenas.....these are just some of the many things that Blizzard has done for the 'masses' (see the storms over 'Welfare Epics' for example).
From a purely selfish point of view, those are probably good things. Free epics! Cool new powers!
But. They were done purely to please said masses and to keep money from said masses rolling in. And Hasbro is doing exactly the same thing. There's nothing wrong per se with that - Hasbro is a business after all. Yes, we all have an incredible emotional attachment to the Realms, but if we all step back and be realistic about it, at the end of the day Hasbro will either want to keep the money rolling in, or abandon the Realms altogether.
On a somewhat related note, I borrowed a friend's Classes and Races preview last night and had a quick read through - and the whole thing smells of MMOs. Again, maybe not a bad thing per se (apart from the sheer predominance of spikey armour), but obviously an attempt to cash in on the whole MMO craze of the last few years.
So, from a certain point of view, I guess we truely are up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle. Interesting times indeed.
|
| Karzak |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 03:19:23
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
Just as Blizzard have done with all the changes they've made to Wow to please the legions of Night Elf Hunters called "Legolaz" that make up most of their customer base.
Tell me, precisely what adjustments has Blizzard made to please night elf huntards? |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 18:58:42
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
[1] Heh, first post and I'm already thinking of myself as part of Candlekeep
You are--everyone is welcome here.
Seconded, welcome aboard! And as for the not voting part, so to speak, I wholeheartedly agree. if you disagree with the changes and still buy the product WOTC has what it wanted your cash! |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 16:04:53
quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
[1] Heh, first post and I'm already thinking of myself as part of Candlekeep
You are--everyone is welcome here. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 16:01:30
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
D'oh!
Pronoun duly corrected, honoured lady.
Heh, thank you! |
| StarBog |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 11:25:21
I think there's a comparison of a kind to be made here between Hasbro and Blizzard. Two large companies making money hand over fist from their intellectual property - Magic/DnD/Pokemon on one hand, and World of Warcraft on the other. And Each with millions of consumers worldwide. Companies like Hasbro and Blizzard will always (not unnaturally) listen to the market. And both things have a tiny minority of players who expect different things from the vast majority.
This means unfortunately, we aren't the market. By we I mean the Candlekeep Community. We're the tiny self-selecting minority. From my experience, the market is the vast majority of DnD players who play in (IMHO) overpowered psuedo-Exalted DnD campaigns and who religiously buy Mongoose output (not that there's anything wrong per se with this - its not just my thing). Candlekeepers are the tiny minority who want something deeper [2] [3]. And alas, Hasbro/WOTC have to think of the vast majority. Just as Blizzard have done with all the changes they've made to Wow to please the legions of Night Elf Hunters called "Legolaz" that make up most of their customer base. In both cases (Hasbro and Blizzard), their aim is to keep taking people's money.
And they will take people's money, as the majority will flock to DnD 4e. The same majority have only read the Salvatore books, not any of the other FR novels [4]. There's an old Dutch story of the boy holding the flood back by putting his finger into the hole in the dam - and I think we have to recognise that we will get swept away, and that Ed and others are simply trying to manage the flow as best they can [5]
What we should do however, is where we disagree with the direction 4e is taking, we should be vocal about it, but at the end of the day, if you're going to buy 4e, your opinions don't matter. As you've already vindicated Hasbro by planning to give them money. Which is what they want.
As it happens, I think the current Realms (1374 DR) have reached a peak even surpassing that just before the end of 2e. The current Realms as is will always be the Realms that will be in my head - and the Realms that will mean the most to me. I will probably pick up some of the 4e stuff, if purely because I value the writers that will produce it, and wish to support them, even if I consider the basis behind the whole thing flawed.
But it will mean that my position on criticising 4e will be compromised as I have given Hasbro money. and I accedpt that. But I will always be a 1374 DR Realmsian at heart. And my players will always be playing in 1374 DR Realms as well.
And just because 4e is out doesn't mean Hasbro will come around to your homes and set fire to all your 3e stuff, meaning you can't play it anymore.
My tuppence anyway,
StarBog.
[1] Heh, first post and I'm already thinking of myself as part of Candlekeep
[2] Don't mistake this as an argument for elitism, by the way. I prefer the Anthony Bourdain approach of looking at things when asked why he didn't make special arrangement for celebrities at his infamous Les Halles resturant in New York. He said (paraphrasing slightly as I don't have the book in front of me): "You've already chosen to spend money and eat here at Les Halles. That makes you our type of people right from the off. Anything else, the number of Mercedes you own for example, is totally irrelevant".
[3] The WoW equivalent to Candlekeep would be the folks at the ElitestJerks forums, I guess.
[4] Yes, I have my cynical hat on today. How did you guess?
[5] Historical inevitability, don't you just love it? |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 07:11:09
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Yeah! What she said!
Are you referring to me? I'm a she.
D'oh!
Pronoun duly corrected, honoured lady.
|
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 06:51:11
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Yeah! What he said!
Are you referring to me? I'm a she.
D'oh!
Pronoun duly corrected, honoured lady.
|
| slay_4_pay |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 05:36:31
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
This from the Associated Press, by way of my local paper:
Hasbro posts 24% profit boost in Q4
Yes, despite our complaints, Hasbro's profits went from a meager $1.1 billion dollars to $1.3 billion dollars.
Do they give a flying monkey's little red jacket about what we think of their mangling of the Forgotten Realms. Hells, no! To quote Weber and Rice: "The money keeps rollin' on in, rollin' on in, rollin' on in!"
True, but Hasbro sells plenty of other products besides D&D products. I'd hazard a guess that D&D products aren't the companies biggest money-maker to begin with?
Aren't you the one who always likes to point out their line of lead paint in their pre-school line of products? 
But seriously, to say D&D has ANY impact on those figures is ridiculous - Hasbro DID NOT aquire WotC for D&D, they did it for Pokemon and MtG cards.
We are just an 'after thought', that can be cancelled for 'insufficient returns' at any given time. That means 4e may just very well be the last anyone sees of D&D if it tanks.
In a way, that puts us gamers up against a wall - it's almost a "buy it, or watch it die" ultimatum.
Yup, I'd say Markustay hit the nail on the head there. Hasboro could not only care less about what we think, but to them we hardly even exist. (just a tiny footnote on a report about WoTC earnings) If 4e flops they won't even blink. As long as the Pokemon cards keep making them millions upon millions of dollars they'll be happy with WoTC. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 19:07:10
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Yeah! What he said!
Are you referring to me? I'm a she. |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 19:02:46
Yeah! What she said!
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 18:29:09
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
And of course, when the ToT debuted, I don't believe the internet was around yet (or at least, it certainly wasn't mainstream). We wouldn't know about how many people might have complained about the ToT online, because back then there was no "online".
Also, the published realms wasn't as old and established then as it is now (didn't have as much history, products, fan base? etc...) so the impact of change to that wasn't as significant.
You're right, that would be another important factor.
And yes, while the ToT ruffled feathers (and would ruffle feathers if it were introduced today), it wasn't nearly as major as the Spellplague. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 15:38:25
True that Wooly! The very foundation of the realms is being decimated. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Hasbro, if people don't want to play in the realms, don't screw it up for them in hopes that they think "oh, I think I will give the realms a shot now since there are only a few gods now, no Epic NPCs that are too busy to bother with the PCs anyways, and not a hundred OPTIONAL books that I could read for the sake of making it more interesting...it'll be like my own homebrew campaign now, anything I wanna, all the lore is up to me). Give them another setting instead of ruining something great, you ingrates!!! Us your loyal fanbase who have been pouring money into the campaign setting, into your greedy hands instead of the hands of the fine developers (Ed in particular) who deserve more than you (unless any of said are among those who have decided upon this fate)!!
This is total absurdity, stupidity and disloyalty towards the fans. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 15:20:26
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
And of course, when the ToT debuted, I don't believe the internet was around yet (or at least, it certainly wasn't mainstream). We wouldn't know about how many people might have complained about the ToT online, because back then there was no "online".
Also, the published realms wasn't as old and established then as it is now (didn't have as much history, products, fan base? etc...) so the impact of change to that wasn't as significant.
And even if the Realms had been in print longer, the ToT was really a minor event. Other than some gods getting bumped off and the disappearance of the assassin class, it didn't do much to change Faerūn itself. |
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