| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 04:34:14
If I had to guess who would be chopped, here's my picks on the end for those deities whom are now going to be the remaining ones.
New Realms Pantheon
1. Silvanus
2. Talos
3. Shar
4. Selune
5. Sune
6. Lolth
7. Corellon
8. Moradin
9. Garl
10. Tyr
11. Gruumsh
12. Akadi
13. Istishia
14. Kossuth
15. Grumbar
16. Cyric
17. Chauntea
18. Ubatao
19. Asmodeus
20. Lathander
21. Ilmater
22. Kelemvor
23. Istishia
24. Oghma
25. Tempus
26. Mask
27. Ghaunadaur
28. Siamorphe
29. Tymora
30. Yondalla
I confess, the idea of Torm not being a Realms Pantheon member is beyond anger inspiring but I included all the deities of note from the Grand History of the Realms and the Greater Deities that will now inhabit the Elemental Chaos.
I'm twitching at some of the omissions in my own list to be frank. Honestly, at the lowest I'd want to include the following deities.
1. Torm
2. Eilistraee
3. Bahamut
4. Set (Go Greenwood- Get rid of the rest of the Pantheon)
5. Loviatar
6. Velsharoon
7. Azuth
8. Tiamat
9. Talona
10. Beshaba
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| VonRaventheDaring |
Posted - 13 Nov 2007 : 20:05:58
Has psionics been mentioned at all? ie what about Auppenser, and the other non normal Faerun deities Toth and the others. The weave could in theory be restored if he were to take mystras place. I would think it would be ideal for Mystra to merge with Toth, take the shadow weave from Shar, and shift to a true neutral Alignment. but thats just me, and 4th is looking like a dumb idea to me. |
| Varl |
Posted - 11 Nov 2007 : 18:29:32
quote:
I would prefer that they kept the pantheon as Ed originally designed it, with the mix of real world deities and original gods. But to be honest I don't care much one way or the other about what WotC decides or does. I prefer the original pantheon and I have that available already.
Same here. Give me the triad of FR deity books plus the Monster Mythology for all the strange races, and I'm happy. I'm not changing a thing. I like the number of deities in the books; they each can have a place in my game, even if it's just as simple as being an obscure cult in one tiny little corner of the Realms. |
| Aravine |
Posted - 09 Nov 2007 : 18:04:16
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
I like Tyr, but they need to come up with a better reason for losing his hand. It sounds too much like fenrir and whats-his-face from norse mythology
You mean the Norse story of how Tyr lost his hand? Same god, same story.
yeah , that's the one. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 20:39:20
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
I like Tyr, but they need to come up with a better reason for losing his hand. It sounds too much like fenrir and whats-his-face from norse mythology
You mean the Norse story of how Tyr lost his hand? Same god, same story.
Lol. I just hope they do not try to pull more RL pantheon deities into the Realms with 4e.
I would prefer that they kept the pantheon as Ed originally designed it, with the mix of real world deities and original gods. But to be honest I don't care much one way or the other about what WotC decides or does. I prefer the original pantheon and I have that available already. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 19:53:42
quote:
Until the Dawn Cataclysm, Tymora and Beshaba were one deity -- Tyche. And for the record, in the novel Tymora's Luck, both were very resistant to the idea of being rejoined as Tyche.
I know that Wooley. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 19:30:36
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
I like Tyr, but they need to come up with a better reason for losing his hand. It sounds too much like fenrir and whats-his-face from norse mythology
You mean the Norse story of how Tyr lost his hand? Same god, same story.
Lol. I just hope they do not try to pull more RL pantheon deities into the Realms with 4e. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 19:14:51
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
I like Tyr, but they need to come up with a better reason for losing his hand. It sounds too much like fenrir and whats-his-face from norse mythology
You mean the Norse story of how Tyr lost his hand? Same god, same story. |
| Aravine |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 18:05:06
I like Tyr, but they need to come up with a better reason for losing his hand. It sounds too much like fenrir and whats-his-face from norse mythology |
| Xysma |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 17:54:47
The ones I really want to see survive are my personal favorites: Kossuth, Hoar, Valkur, Tempus, Gond, and Finder. Of course I would prefer to see the whole pantheon survive intact, but that's a pipe dream. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 17:11:40
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
29. Tymora/Beshaba (made different facets of one deity as a "cheat")
Until the Dawn Cataclysm, Tymora and Beshaba were one deity -- Tyche. And for the record, in the novel Tymora's Luck, both were very resistant to the idea of being rejoined as Tyche.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
5. Xvim (I bet that everyone will look at me weird for putting him here)
Not I. I really liked Xvim; he's my fave of the evil deities. That's why I so strongly favor my "Bane is Xvim in disgiuse" theory.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 16:52:38
I'm wondering if we might see Tyr fall from grace somehow, then see Lathander become Amaunator again and take justice. Tyr might then have Hoar as a servant and Torm start serving Amaunator. |
| Kheris |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 15:40:27
There's something else too... The designers did say that some of the deities would be getting bumped down to demi-power status. If I'm reading that correctly, we may not be losing "all but ~30" of the gods, there may be only 30 full deities and several demi-power servitors. That would make the racial pantheons break down akin to
<Greater Deity (1-2)>
|
<Minor Deities (X)>
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<Demigods (Y)>
So the Elves may end up with (arranged randomly, just as an example):
Corellon
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Sehenine, Labelas, Hanali
|
Solonor, Sashelas, Rilifane, Etc.
The Faerunian pantheon(s)/courts could be arranged similarly (again, kinda random, not saying who should be where  )
Tyr, Tymora
|
Torm, Etc.
|
Hoar, Nobanion, Etc.
That allows for fewer "Gods" by saying "Yeah, well, you need only concern yourself with Zeus, but Iris is here too." It feels very synthetic, since I have trouble seeing how that would really change how I pick a patron. I'm sure there's a logic to it, but it escapes me. Of course, I could be totally off-base, and they may really be planning to wipe out a large swath of Deities.
Regardless, I don't like that fact that deities will be cut, since you could find a god for nearly anything until now. The idea of courts is a great one, though, since it allows you to know who your gods/faiths allies and rivals/enemies are (especially good for clerics and paladins in need of aid). |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 14:14:04
Just a question, though - is 30 too many to subject a new player to? I am just asking opinion. I know core 3e has like 9 or 10 gods. I, personally, love having all the aspects and gods they do now, so it's a shame any have to be cut.
Actually, as long as Yeenoghu makes it through to 4e, it's ok. I'll always love his 1e Deities and Demigods picture. That is one happy flail-wielding Gnoll.
C-Fb |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 10:41:39
For me, here's the deities that I *DO* consider to be Realms-Necessary. If I had to choose, these would be the "Realms Thirty"
Note, some of these are already confirmed dead
Charles' Dialed Down Realms Pantheon
1. Talos
2. Tyr
3. Torm
4. Lathander
5. Sune
6. Oghma
7. Ilmater
8. Cyric
9. Bane
10. Kelemvor
11. Myrkul
12. Shar
13. Talona
14. Set
15. Umberlee
16. Mystra
17. Helm
18. Tempus
19. Miekkli
20. Lolth
21. Loviatar
22. Moradin
23. Corellon
24. Garl
25. Yondalla
26. Gruumsh
27. Ubatao
28. Chauntaea
29. Tymora/Beshaba (made different facets of one deity as a "cheat")
30. Mask
You can be surprised at some of the choices I made to drop. Silvanus was a choice between Chauntaea as a nature deity plus him, the Elemental Gods added little in my view with the Red Wizards serving Kossuth the only interesting aspect to them, Myrkul I chose because he's better than Velsharoon yet could fulfill the "Evil Nerull" type of portfolio plus also Moanders, frankly I'm annoyed that so many spaces needed to be taken up by Greyhawk deities even if Lolth/Corellon are so intimately tied to thinks. If I could get Lolth, Moradin, Corellon, Garl, and Yondalla "back" then I'd add these.
1. Waukeen (A goddess of Trade is something PEOPLE WOULD ACTUALLY WORSHIP)
2. Malar
3. Eli (simply because she cuts down on "all the damned dark skinned evil people")
4. Azuth (redundant or not, he's a nice alternative)
5. Xvim (I bet that everyone will look at me weird for putting him here)
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| Zanan |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 08:58:57
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
If I had to guess who would be chopped, here's my picks on the end for those deities whom are now going to be the remaining ones.
Nitpicking a bit ... 
New Realms Pantheon
6. Lolth
7. Corellon
I too would rank Lolth above Corellon any time 
13. Isitia ... ain't that Istishia?
14. Kossoth ... ain't that Kossuth?
15. Grumber ... ain't that Grumbar?
... but yes you are right, the Elemental Deities should all make the cut, even though rarely used.
19. Asmodeus
... not a deity at all! Just an Archdevil with delusions of being divine!
23. Istishia ... nonono ... one Istishia is enough 
27. Ghaunadaur ... nonononono ... utterly useless. Off into some Abyssal or Hellish den with that one!
5. Loviatar ... what? Hey, she's IMHo ranking above Shar when it comes to useful evil deities, right next to Mask (well, almost)
10. Beshaba ... heck ... ill-fortune is always something that needs being avoided!
11. Yondalla ... hit me with a bargepole, but you listed the very same little lass as your must-haves at No. 30 
Well, I think on those which I want later.
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| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 08:16:52
Well he's imprisoned in his Plane, so I assume.
1. Spells work
2. No avatars
3. No leaving his realm to visit other gods
4. Communions and Auguries still work
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| Toedoe |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 06:13:09
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Zhents still being around doesn't mean both of their deities will be. They ran for years on just one deity...
Bane should be since they also put him into the core D&D pantheon. Rich said "It's an appropriate (if grim) finish to the story of Cyric's betrayal begun in the Time of Troubles series. Time to move on and tell new stories about Cyric." So I guess he is in. My question is, since Cyric is supose to be imprisoned for 1000 years for killing Mystra, whats the rules of his emprisionment. If its like when Helm impresoned Mystra in the 'Crucible' then he's as good as dead. What would be left after 1000 years of no contact with your followers. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 01:02:22
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Oh very true. I tried putting myself in the WoTC designers shoes, thought about what their priorities are (based on their stated aims) and worked from that. Believe me, I don't want the lesser gods to go either! That list is really just a mental exercise and a possible basis for discussion.
Lol. Every time I attempt to put myself in the R&D Staff's shoes and figure out their motivation for the direction that they are taking the 4e Realms, I start kicking myself for making such a wild gamble. |
| Uzzy |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 00:51:48
quote:
Yeah, but we are not privy to the logic being used. What is logical to some of us (especially the "if it's not broke, don't fix it" thing) is obviously not held as logical by some of the designers.
Oh very true. I tried putting myself in the WoTC designers shoes, thought about what their priorities are (based on their stated aims) and worked from that. Believe me, I don't want the lesser gods to go either! That list is really just a mental exercise and a possible basis for discussion.
quote:
The Zhents still being around doesn't mean both of their deities will be. They ran for years on just one deity...
That they did, though I don't see WoTC ditching Cyric, nor do I see them wanting the Zhents to go back to Cyric. Could be wrong though!
And yes Kentinal, Eilistraee could work as a Goddess of Bards, but I don't see it working that well. Drow are still mainly evil, I'd expect, and having a Drow goddess be the only bardic god? Bit awkward. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 00:46:30
Well Moander was, literally, without worshipers when Finder finally destroyed him. |
| Brynweir |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 00:33:06
I think that the gods should be able to be killed because isn't their strength based on their worshippers. So don't they get weaker if they lose worshippers? (or did I make that up?) Wouldn't it be conceivable that a god grew weak enough for a mortal to defeat?
Also, I'd like to see Torm make it to 4e as well. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 00:26:02
Well, my biggest hope from the pruning is that we're going to get the Faerun: Manual of the Planes that will describe the various planes that we never got detailed in the main books of 3E. Handling them in a manner similiar to the books describing Asmodeus' Realm and the Abyss. They obviously would have to cover much more territory in a shorter space than those books but you definitely could.
These books could have Torm and so on described in a manner similiar to Mesphito and so on. They'd be essentially the notch above "Solar Devas" and take the place as the God's right hands there.
As for being able to challenge gods, I think players should be able to and heroes but it'll always be with something purely narrative to do so. For example, Sauron might well be a Demigod of Evil and Corruption in Middle Earth but he is undone when the Ring is destroyed. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 19:29:43
The way I see it is this. I personally don't like the idea of players being able to kill a deity. However, there's this gap between player power and deity power, such that its very unbelievable that players would even get near the ability to even begin challenging deities. At the same time, I'm sorry, but I don't think Finder should be a deity. Very powerful servitor of a deity who might be considered an Arch-Saint within the church? Sure... but he got his power by killing a "deity" and he should be killable as well.
So, in the end, no I don't want players being able to off Tyr. However, Torm could be a very powerful servitor of Tyr's priesthood who manages much of Tyr's resources... and he could be a target for a very powerful group of PC's (i.e. a trio of 30th lvl PC's should be able to make him run). The problem comes that you can't have these powerful beings and NOT tie their hands somehow. Otherwise, why doesn't Torm... working as a servant of Tyr... just come down to Toril and smack down Manshoon. In becoming immortal, are they forbidden by Ao from assaulting a mortal or they lose their immortality (unless they are assaulted first)? Can they no longer leave their home "celestial realm" or whatever planes will be? If they can't assault a mortal or control a mortal, what are the evil ones doing? These rules need to be decided. |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 18:54:17
Well, with Bahamut and Tiamat, they have been a staple since 1st edition, I doubt the will take them out of the game. And worst come to worst, they will always be part of the core group of deities and will make an easier transition. :) |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 18:44:07
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
I really hope they will not get rid of the dragon gods. Bahamut and Tiamat are must haves in my opinion. I would dearly miss them.
Well, Bahamut has become the god of Paladins in 4e, so it is unlikely that they are going to remove him from the Realms now that he is Core.
Article on 4e Core Pantheon |
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 18:38:51
I really hope they will not get rid of the dragon gods. Bahamut and Tiamat are must haves in my opinion. I would dearly miss them. |
| khorne |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 18:35:11
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Other than the big ones, like Lathander, Selūne, and Tymora, the minor ones that I hope survive are Lurue, Nobanion, and Finder Wyvernspur.
Ditto for Finder. Other than that I don't really have any hopes since my three most favorite gods(Mystra, Gorm Gulthym and Helm) got whacked. I mean, what are the odds? There are three gods that I find particularly awesome, and it's precisely those gods who get chopped. |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 17:23:14
Oh, I totally agree, my friend. I have been a FR fan since first edition. I have done so much reading and perusing in my time. :P I just think that if people want to make the jump to 4e (which I won't due to my WoW time), they will just have to accept, or do a lot of house rules. I love the lore in the game. All three of my Pomeranians are named after FR characters (Szass, Fzoul, and Azoun). But, times change, the market changes... think about the age range of the people on this board right now... some of us are in the teens, 20s, 30s, 40s.. etc. Change is always tough when it's something so beloved by so many. But a lot of us went from 2e to 3.x, and a good many of us will make the 4e jump. :)
Just take whatcha want and do with the rest what you please.
C-Fb |
| frapast1981 |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 17:04:41
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
They are most likely pruning the pantheon to renew interest and not make a new player look at the mountain of information. I agree with the major players still be included. But Lurue... I mean, she really doesn't do much. The Red Knight... same. I mean, we all have personal opinions on them, but in light of the fact we know they will be pruned, we'll just have to accept that their aspects will just be sucked up by some of the greater dieties.
C-Fb
I think that you may be correct, but it's its extensive lore that make Faerun so charming (this is my opinion).
The minor deites take care of they portfolio so if you are going to make some tactical decision you will pray to Red Knight: it's something that add a decisive element to roleplay (in my opinion).
But, as you say, we'll just have to accept and make our own Forgotten Realms be what we want it to be. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 17:03:53
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
We need a God of Bards, so Oghma's in. Denier will likely become a servant of him. Finder as well.
...
Lolth and Eilistraee have to make it too, given how much importance WoTC put on the Drow. Though Eilistraee may be much weaker then she should be.
Eilistraee could take this role of Bards (of course right now 4th does not have Bards), she favors them now and it looks like her daddy is going to become deity of many races.
All in all the latist triolgy theme is only one will survive of these will survive, however that is not set in stone/canon yet. We need to see book three. *shrugs* |
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