| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Rils |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 02:15:07
I don't know if other settings had this, but I remember in both 2e and 3.x that Faerun has "magic" gems. Using particular gems in magic item construction would give it bonuses; for instance, using a sapphire on a magic sword gave it's bearer protection from fear effects. Other gemstones give bonuses to skill checks, or reduce the chances of a spell failing, or +1 to AC, or cause fire spells to do extra damage, made illusion spells harder to detect, etc, depending on what you used. This sort of thing was in both 2e (Volo's Guide to All Things Magical) and 3.5e (Magic of Faerun, I think, and there was even a prestige class for Gem Magic where you could store spells in gems to be triggered later, that kind of thing).
Has anyone done a treatment like this for 4e? With the non-Vancian magic it might not look the same, but I had a character in mind from an old campaign that I was thinking to update to 4e, and this was part of his schtick. Thanks for any input! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 11:45:02
But too many editors spoil the ink broth, no?
Tables summarizing magical properties of gemstones, in general and in the Realms, can be found in the sources I cited in my first post. Approaching things from a functional perspective instead allows for the use of Artificers from the 2E Tome of Magic, which generally abstracts away from the homework and assumes the purchase of glittering crystals and gemstones are just included within the component and material costs. I might be wrong, but I suspect this latter approach is also assumed in 4E. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 11:24:42
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
There was a "gem mage" that featured pretty heavily in James Lowders The Ring of Winter. This type of wizard was able to use gems in place of other material components.
Did that novel take place in Chult? Hmmmm... That would explain the back-panel blurb on the product Jungles of Chult -
"Wizards, be prepared for new magical spells and new methods of magic use based on gemstones."
No such system was ever included in that product (which was also supposed to contain another map that was cut for costs showing the rest of the peninsula, which I tried to track-down for years).
<sigh> So much good Realmslore must have been lost over the years due to size constraints. 
Well, another way to look at it might be "lots of bad realmslore was prevented by size constraints". Not saying this was necessarily bad, just saying that man there's been a good bit to come out over the years that really could have used an editor's pen. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 00:54:32
It's all Wooly's fault. He left the cage open.  |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 15:10:29
 That was weird. Have the wards here at the 'Keep been bypassed again, Sage? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 00:48:54
Indeed, it was. And there's a few tidbits in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical as well. |
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 20 Jan 2012 : 18:49:42
If memory serves right, Gem Magic was also covered in the 3e Magic of Faerun product... |
| Rils |
Posted - 31 Oct 2011 : 17:30:19
quote:
It's a shame that gem magic content was cut. I really would've liked to have seen what it brought to the existing use of magic in the region of Chult.
+1, no, +5!! Any chance of sharing some of that info on the forums here, just "for old times sake"?  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 Oct 2011 : 02:41:58
quote:
Originally posted by JamesLowder
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Sage - I read about the 'lost map' in the Realms L:-List, but I don't recall any mention of the missing gem-lore (although I always assumed those back-cover blurbs were written well in advance, with high expectations, that oft-times could not be met).
It's a direct quote from Tom Costa, as I recall. I'm quite distance from my archives at the moment, so I'll have to check when I get back home.
I just pulled out my files for Jungle. There was originally supposed to be more material on the gem magic, including a list of spells and what gems would be used for components. I don't recall all the details of how this exactly played out, but some of the resource material was cut to make more room for the adventure, which ran long.
Thanks James. Glad to see I was recalling the situation [somewhat] as it originally played out.
It's a shame that gem magic content was cut. I really would've liked to have seen what it brought to the existing use of magic in the region of Chult. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 28 Oct 2011 : 21:22:06
Thank you Mr. Lowder for that - since I am relying mostly on memory these days I can't really be 100% sure about a lot of what I say here now.
I'd love to see that missing lore - so much has been lost over the years because of space requirements. I understand some of the map made it into Serpent Kingdoms, but I notice there are always a couple of places lost between editions, and I just love uncovering those.  |
| JamesLowder |
Posted - 28 Oct 2011 : 20:51:10
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Sage - I read about the 'lost map' in the Realms L:-List, but I don't recall any mention of the missing gem-lore (although I always assumed those back-cover blurbs were written well in advance, with high expectations, that oft-times could not be met).
It's a direct quote from Tom Costa, as I recall. I'm quite distance from my archives at the moment, so I'll have to check when I get back home.
I just pulled out my files for Jungle. There was originally supposed to be more material on the gem magic, including a list of spells and what gems would be used for components. I don't recall all the details of how this exactly played out, but some of the resource material was cut to make more room for the adventure, which ran long. (I was originally supposed to write the adventure, too, and had something plotted out, but asked Jean Rabe to do it when deadlines blew up on books I was editing for the company as part of my day job.) The gem magic was not a new magic system, though.
Yes, there was supposed to be an additional map with more details about the interior from Refuge Bay to Mezro. It was supposed to look hand-drawn and appear to be a Harper-related artifact. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 08:45:08
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Sage - I read about the 'lost map' in the Realms L:-List, but I don't recall any mention of the missing gem-lore (although I always assumed those back-cover blurbs were written well in advance, with high expectations, that oft-times could not be met).
It's a direct quote from Tom Costa, as I recall. I'm quite distance from my archives at the moment, so I'll have to check when I get back home. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Oct 2011 : 06:36:35
Some of it may have been used elsewhere - perhaps Volo's Guide to All Things Magical.
@Sage - I read about the 'lost map' in the Realms L:-List, but I don't recall any mention of the missing gem-lore (although I always assumed those back-cover blurbs were written well in advance, with high expectations, that oft-times could not be met). The only reason that particular product stuck in my craw was because I only bought it for that "new magic system based on gems" - at the time I still ran GH and didn't give an Osquip's arse about Chult.
The back of one of the Bloodstone products was another good example of that - it implies Ten Towns was supposed to be in Vassa. Personally, I think it would have made a better fit. Perhaps they wouldn't have had to rotate the entire map 7 degrees counter-clockwise in 3e to accommodate Icewind Dale. |
| Rils |
Posted - 26 Oct 2011 : 15:36:29
I had no idea about that stuff... Cool, thanks for sharing! Did it ever reappear anywhere else? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 26 Oct 2011 : 02:25:59
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
There was a "gem mage" that featured pretty heavily in James Lowders The Ring of Winter. This type of wizard was able to use gems in place of other material components.
Did that novel take place in Chult? Hmmmm... That would explain the back-panel blurb on the product Jungles of Chult -
"Wizards, be prepared for new magical spells and new methods of magic use based on gemstones."
No such system was ever included in that product (which was also supposed to contain another map that was cut for costs showing the rest of the peninsula, which I tried to track-down for years).
I can't recall exactly where I learned this [likely the REALMS-L], but I think that was content cut from the original Jungles of Chult tome.
|
| Seethyr |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 22:00:44
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
There was a "gem mage" that featured pretty heavily in James Lowders The Ring of Winter. This type of wizard was able to use gems in place of other material components.
Did that novel take place in Chult? Hmmmm... That would explain the back-panel blurb on the product Jungles of Chult -
"Wizards, be prepared for new magical spells and new methods of magic use based on gemstones."
No such system was ever included in that product (which was also supposed to contain another map that was cut for costs showing the rest of the peninsula, which I tried to track-down for years).
<sigh> So much good Realmslore must have been lost over the years due to size constraints.
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
That could get pricey
Not necessarily - in the case of material substitutions, I believe that certain gems can be used and not be destroyed, and therefor be reused, and save you money in the log-run. IIRC, there was a Dragon magazine article about this.
Even if it took years to pay-off, just the efficiency alone of never having to scramble for components in new locales would justify the expense.
Not that this mattered in my games - I didn't want to be bothered with the bookeeping of spell-components (and couldn't trust my players to), so I just 'taxed' them based on level whenever they were in-town (a very abstract way of saying they were 'gathering materials').
I never bothered with physical spell components in my campaigns. I always preferred my magic-users to appear separate from chemists 
In the 90's when the Ring of Winter came out out and I was barely a teen, I wrote Mr. Lowder a letter about the gem mages of Chult and he kindly responded...
quote:
James Lowder wrote
As for the gem wizards, the spells they cast are very much like any other mage's, with the exception of the components. Because many "standard" components are rare in Chult, gemstone wizards substitute precious and semi-precious stones whenever possible. They also specialize in gem lore and try to use the common magic that all stones are supposed to possess.
He then gave me some good RL gem lore references like The Mystical Lore of Precious Stones by George Frederick Kuntz.
Oddly, I sometimes miss the days of snail mail... |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 21:23:21
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
There was a "gem mage" that featured pretty heavily in James Lowders The Ring of Winter. This type of wizard was able to use gems in place of other material components.
Did that novel take place in Chult? Hmmmm... That would explain the back-panel blurb on the product Jungles of Chult -
"Wizards, be prepared for new magical spells and new methods of magic use based on gemstones."
No such system was ever included in that product (which was also supposed to contain another map that was cut for costs showing the rest of the peninsula, which I tried to track-down for years).
<sigh> So much good Realmslore must have been lost over the years due to size constraints.
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
That could get pricey
Not necessarily - in the case of material substitutions, I believe that certain gems can be used and not be destroyed, and therefor be reused, and save you money in the log-run. IIRC, there was a Dragon magazine article about this.
Even if it took years to pay-off, just the efficiency alone of never having to scramble for components in new locales would justify the expense.
Not that this mattered in my games - I didn't want to be bothered with the bookeeping of spell-components (and couldn't trust my players to), so I just 'taxed' them based on level whenever they were in-town (a very abstract way of saying they were 'gathering materials').
I never bothered with physical spell components in my campaigns. I always preferred my magic-users to appear separate from chemists |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 20:40:17
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
There was a "gem mage" that featured pretty heavily in James Lowders The Ring of Winter. This type of wizard was able to use gems in place of other material components.
Did that novel take place in Chult? Hmmmm... That would explain the back-panel blurb on the product Jungles of Chult -
"Wizards, be prepared for new magical spells and new methods of magic use based on gemstones."
No such system was ever included in that product (which was also supposed to contain another map that was cut for costs showing the rest of the peninsula, which I tried to track-down for years).
<sigh> So much good Realmslore must have been lost over the years due to size constraints.
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
That could get pricey
Not necessarily - in the case of material substitutions, I believe that certain gems can be used and not be destroyed, and therefor be reused, and save you money in the log-run. IIRC, there was a Dragon magazine article about this.
Even if it took years to pay-off, just the efficiency alone of never having to scramble for components in new locales would justify the expense.
Not that this mattered in my games - I didn't want to be bothered with the bookeeping of spell-components (and couldn't trust my players to), so I just 'taxed' them based on level whenever they were in-town (a very abstract way of saying they were 'gathering materials'). |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 13:47:10
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
There was a "gem mage" that featured pretty heavily in James Lowders The Ring of Winter. This type of wizard was able to use gems in place of other material components.
That could get pricey |
| Rils |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 04:19:48
You guys are right, sorry, was going off of memory there. The point is still the same though - some of the old gem benefits got a little awkward and/or abstract. Updating to 4e will take some condensing.
(PS - sory if my comment was confusing, the point with the Iris Agate was to illustrate the silliness of the old stuff, and that it's not really applicable to the modern system. i wouldn't even insult my DM by trying to pull that kind of stunt nowadays! lol)
Looked closer at the 3.x stuff today, it's much more simple: "adding this gem for 5Kgp to a wand that casts [insert spell type here, ie evocation] adds 2 to the saving throw or 2 to caster level if no save."
That sort of model is more applicable to 4e I think. Something like "this gem does 1d6 extra lightning damage", or "this gem gives -2 to saves against charm spells cast with this implement." That sort of thing. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 25 Oct 2011 : 00:00:43
There was a "gem mage" that featured pretty heavily in James Lowders The Ring of Winter. This type of wizard was able to use gems in place of other material components. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 23:15:55
lol, my players learned long long ago not to rely on mere typos for survival. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 21:59:39
I agree with Wooly on that one. Looks like you have to have a lot of it to make that work. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 21:53:02
quote:
Originally posted by Rils
Also, take something like Iris Agate: it rebounds any spell cast on it at it's caster. For a 2gp amulet, you too can be invincible to ranged casters! Somehow I don't see that going over with my DM, although it's "in the book". :)
I think you're misinterpreting that. Page 42 of Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, formerly a suppressed work  , says about iris agate: "A spell that is hurled against a screen or statue of this material rebounds right back at its source."
As a DM, he could easily say that any spell not targeting your amulet would be unaffected by it. He could say you'd need a shield or armor covered in iris agate to protect an individual. That's actually how I'm reading it.
Alternately, you could run with your interpretation, but still be vulnerable to area of effect magic or indirect magic -- like summoning some critter to rip into the amulet wearer. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 21:06:58
I would think the best way to implement this idea while retaining 4E's level of simplicity and abstraction would be to simply grant flat bonuses, which perhaps increase in effectiveness and versatility as additional feats and experience levels are added. The description of your crystalmancing artificer might simply assume that he constantly equips himself with a varied collection of these little rock bits without needing to specify each one in detail; such detail would only be required for any special stones he acquires which surpass his class abilities. Just my suggestion. |
| Rils |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 20:44:16
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
In the past my players have chewed certain roots, worn certain cheap little charms and bracelets, always carried certain gemstones upon their person ... and received all manner of little immunities and resistances and bonuses: immune to fear, resistant to lightning, absorb a little magic into healing power, etc etc. A lot of paperwork, silly rocks and roots and feathers and chickenbones, but it all adds up.
Yeah, I could totally see this. Unfortunately, I think that was where my original character was starting to head with things - buying bits of this stone, a chunk of that rock, he probably had about 20 lbs of minerals hanging off his neck, lol. Of course that was back in my "yute" when the DM was the enemy, and you did whatever sneaky thing you could do to foil him... :)
Now, I would definitely involve my DM in how this plays out. In 4e terms, I'm thinking I would start with an Artificer, who gets some rituals like Brew Potion and Enchant Magic Item for free. The way gem enhancements worked in 3.x was basically you pay the cost to make the magic item, plus the cost to add an appropriate gem of a minimum size (usually 5000gp or so). Basically, adding the gem enhanced the magic item you were already creating. Value(magic item) = Cost(base item) + Cost(gem).
Come to think of it, much like the mechanics of the Eberron Dragonshards in 4e... Only not swappable. I'll have to look into that, I don't recall the specifics.
I like the idea that the magic of the gems in inherent, but maybe takes the right application of magic to "bring out". Like in 3.x, a "Gem Lore" feat should be required to gain the appropriate knowledge and ability to craft magic items with gem enhancements. Any schmuck can hot-glue a Beljuril to a wand, but crafting the wand so that the gem adds a couple d6 extra lightning damage takes some know-how.
Because I'm a visual kind of guy, last night I actually started a spreadsheet of all the gems and powers from the 2e book. I'll cross reference it to the 3e material, then it's "simply" a matter of figuring out how it translates into 4e terms. Easy peasy. 
Now if only I could figure out how to explain this new hobby to my wife... lol |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 18:56:45
Interesting. I came up with some gem/stone properties and a Stone Mage prC for my home campaigns, loosely based on some of the 2nd ed lore and occult stone magic info, but I don't play 4th ed, so I have no idea if anything would cross over for that. I agree wtih Ayrik, though stones tend to keep their properties far better than other items. The idea being that the power comes from the stone's shape, clarity, size, color, etc, rather than being simply a function of where it was found. Of course, I use a different magical system for my world, with ley lines, power sinks and wells, and cosmic resonances as the source of magical power, and stones or other items found in such places would naturally be stronger than those found elsewhere. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 18:07:26
In the past my players have chewed certain roots, worn certain cheap little charms and bracelets, always carried certain gemstones upon their person ... and received all manner of little immunities and resistances and bonuses: immune to fear, resistant to lightning, absorb a little magic into healing power, etc etc. A lot of paperwork, silly rocks and roots and feathers and chickenbones, but it all adds up.
So I agree with imposing some sort of ultimate limits. In my game this really breaks down to the usual DM strategies:
Require the right skill or feat, or whatever. Although the substance might have all manner of magical properties attributed to it (and many people will firmly attest and exaggerate these properties), it is in fact completely inert unless somehow activated through the use of relevant lore or ritual. Some people will know that bits of that pretty yellow crystal can resonate in a way which reduces damage from sonic attacks, or many people will firmly believe that's the case, but only somebody skilled in gemlore and spellcraft will really know the truth about the yellow crystal, why it works, and how to use it.
Whatever is done to make the substance useful could yield very low quantities. Perhaps only one leaf in every thousand has the correct qualities to grant immunity to fear when boiled into tea, much as only one 4-leaf clover in every field could grant extra luck. Or perhaps one needs to cast a spell on the leaves before gathering them, or shine moonlight through a prism upon them for a full night, or add a drop of blood into the tea, or whatever. You could gather leaves all day and fill a dozen sacks, and make tea from any of them, yet receive real game bonuses from only one cup of tea and only when things are done properly. If the PCs want huge batches of these special tea leaves then they'll have to invest significant time or resources into harvesting and preparing them.
Enforce some kind of expiration period before the substance loses potency. Sometimes a very short one, measured in days or hours or minutes ... this would provide some explanation why people tend to gather those special flower petals of poison resistance only as opportunity presents, why they don't simply farm and process and hoard warehouses full of them. PCs usually don't try to fill three saddlebags with such useful stuff when they know it'll spoil. The magical properties of gemstones certainly do spoil after a time, usually beginning when they're removed (mined) from nature. |
| Rils |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 16:26:33
Yep, the stuff in 2e Volo's is what got me started on it so many years ago! Just wondering if that info had been translated/updated for 4e at all.
Some of it seems like it might translate fairly well, particularly stones that don't have mechanical benefits. An example might be Archon/Blue John, which glows when an invisible creature is within 20 feet of it. (useful for both adventurers AND paranoid bad guy lairs!) You'd have to gauge an ability like that against PC powers though; detecting invisible creatures could be an encounter utility power for someone and that would completely trivialize it.
Some stones had "defensive" abilities which might be updatable. For instance, wearing something with Algae Quartz is supposed to give a +2 to saving throws against polymorph or other shape-changing spells. That's applicable, though pretty powerful; I'm thinking you'd have to put some size/cost limit to it (ie the stone has to be worth at least 1000gp or something). Another example is Alestone, which is supposed to give you a +1 to AC on the side of the body which it is worn. With the current combat mechanics, facing isn't really applicable, and a straight +1 to AC for a 50gp semiprecious stone is crazy talk, so there'd have to be some way to balance that.
Other stones don't translate quite as well. An example might be a Black Opal, which can be prepared like an explosive to do 6d8 damage in a 20' radius, 4d8 in a 40' radius, and 2d8 in a 60' radius (ie you take less damage the farther you are from the explosion). There are level 30 daily powers which do less than 6d8 damage, so this is probably not one of those things that's a direct crossover. Also, take something like Iris Agate: it rebounds any spell cast on it at it's caster. For a 2gp amulet, you too can be invincible to ranged casters! Somehow I don't see that going over with my DM, although it's "in the book". :)
So anyways, that's the sort of thing I'm looking at, and pondering how to update it. Both as a PC who specializes in buffing powers/abilities with that sort of thing, and as a DM tool/dirty trick (good luck infiltrating the castle with Ring of Invisibility, when every doorway has an invisibility detector over it!) |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 14:07:58
I always loved the Ioun Stones (spelling?) from 2nd Ed |
| Therise |
Posted - 24 Oct 2011 : 05:48:57
And there were also the elvish kiira and selukiira.
Sorry, I'm not aware of a 4E update on FR gems, though. |
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