| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| RodOdom |
Posted - 17 Jan 2007 : 16:30:34
I'm thinking about asking my players to stick with characters of the same gender as they are in real life (wow that sounds awkward.) What do you folks think about this? Would it be sexist? Or allow the players to identify with their PCs more? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 13:50:05
I don't think it's a good idea to force any kind of restriction on a player designing their character. If you want to force a female player to only play a female character then you might as well say they can only be human characters as well. Freedom in character design can go a long way.
*Extreme freedom in character design can make for interesting adventures too. If a PC wants to have a beardless dwarf, a red headed drow, or an anorexic halfling; then let them. Provide a warning that they might be ostracized from their own community and go from there. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 11:49:02
I can see where it can be a problem, though its more been a problem with some male players who just want to play a female tramp. It can be funny the first few times for the whole group, but you need to nip it in the bud before "I flash him" becomes the standard method of distracting guards or they decide to "roll some johns". Having the character find themselves pregnant can be an interesting quandary (having morning sickness while creeping through the castle would suck). Having their newfound partner be a monster in disguise is another. Then there are the more disgusting options such as STD's, etc....
However, other than the above, I've never had a problem with people playing the opposite sex. Now, whether they can play the opposite sex well, that's another question. Also, it might get a little creepy if they play the opposite sex TOO well, but again, I've never run into that situation. Truthfully, its been rare that one of my players wanted to play an opposite sex character once we got past college age, and it ends up being myself having to play an opposite sex NPC to them more than anything (though I have occasionally employed a surrogate friendly female to simply roleplay a certain character in a given adventure... only have done this with one of my girlfriends, but I can easily see it doable with a player's wife so long as they agree that they won't reveal what they know). |
| Icelander |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 11:32:24
To add to what I said above, I just watched an interview with George R.R. Martin, who is among those living authors I most admire and respect for their talent.
He was asked a question, well, or the host led up to a question with a statement that went: "You write women really well."
Martin answered the non-question, starting with: "Well, I've always considered women to be people."
Then he went on to state, essentially, much the same thing I did above.
Every character that isn't just you renamed and transplanted to the setting of the story will have important differences from you; be that defining experiences that you lack, biological features that differ from yours or just a personality that isn't very like yours. But the thing is, most people are a lot more alike than they are different, and the process of creating characters is primarily about empathy. It's about imagining how something would make us feel, if we were in that situation and we were that person.
It sounds a lot more complex than it is, because this is something that is innate to us as social animals capable of self-awareness, imagination and deduction. We do it almost unconsciously.
Obviously, research, whether in the form of reading or talking to people, can enhance your ability to empathise with a character. If we want to know how a certain experience could shape someone, we could do worse than reading about how they've shaped real people or talking to some of these people about their experiences. The thing is, though, when the difference between you and some fictional character boils down to a different set of genitals, you've been doing research for it your whole life. After all, half the people you've met meet that criterion.
To summarise, I was really glad to see that one of my favourite authors had so very similar things to say on the subject as I do. It isn't a matter of writing/portraying/playing women or men well, it's a matter of conveying characters. I think that the worst character portrayals spring from attempts to write 'a [adjective] (wo)man' (or dwarf or elf, etc.) instead of just focusing on creating and bringing to life a character that exists to you as a whole person, not just a representative of sex, gender, race or some other symbol. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 09:13:46
On the one eyestalk, the prospect of male players running Lesbian Ninja Catgirls and conversely female players with male characters built upon too much Mercedes Lackey or something like this is... ugh. On the other eyestalk, would those who do this play anything well?
And if good players will be good, bad players will be bad... I don't see what's point to add any such limitations.
Now, beginner roleplayers may be better off playing species and sexes they know, because it diminishes the temptation to slide into simplified loonie routines (let's not forget equally crappy Dumb Dwarven Fighter and Bishie Greenpeace Elf while we're at it). |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 05:22:57
In many ways I can not well play my own gender, based on what they say my gender should be like. They of course being some strange group that generalize about everything. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 02:01:49
I thought about creating a new scroll, but expected that this had come up a time or two before. This was the newest one on the subject I could find. I recognise that the seeker who posted it may have moved on, but that invalidates neither subject nor future discussion.
My personal experience as regards roleplaying is that all fictional characters, not to mention real people, have motivations and personalities that in some way differ markedly from my own. Whether I play a male or female, elf or dwarf, human or mind flayer, I am going to be playing something so different from myself that my understanding of it will always be incomplete.
To some extent, this is peculiar to my own situation. I have few of the motivations that are considered 'typical', i.e. the struggle for societal status or biological imperatives are relatively unimportant to me. As it turns out, amiable nihilism with a touch of cynical hedonism is not all that common as an active life philosphy, for all that many people agree with it in theory.
Mostly, however, it results from individual variations between people in the most important areas being far greater than variations from factors like nationality, hair colour, 'race', gender or sex.
The odds that one guy is going to think like another guy are only slightly better than the odds he's going to think like some random woman.
And to be perfecly clear on the maths here, for all intents and purposes, no one is ever going to think exactly like someone else.
So all roleplaying, at its core, is about pretending to be someone that you don't even necessarily fully understand.
Which is perfectly fine, in my opinion. As it turns out, understanding is not necessary for emulation. While science cannot answer every question we have about reality, it can usually predict with uncanny accuracy what is going to happen next, even if it can't tell us why. The same principle applies with people. Even when you don't necessarily know why, even when they don't necessarily know why, close observation can still allow you to know what someone who is 'like X' would do in a situation.
We make characters, in fiction of any sort, including roleplaying, by mixing and matching elements of our experience. Granted, most of our experience of being someone is experience of being ourselves, but everyone has plenty of experience of watching others express their identity, emotions and their personality, right?
Everyone who has interacted with people of both genders or sexes ought to be able to portray a person of either. When we portray a character for an outside audience, whether that audience is the whole world who might watch a block-buster movie or a group of friends playing an RPG, what matters the most isn't what we feel, it's what we successfully convey. And in that regard, our experience of watching others being themselves is more useful than our experience of being ourselves.
I'll grant that neither my voice nor my physique are conductive to portraying a female character on stage or film. In a roleplaying game, where one GM must by necessity portray anything from world-shaking dragons to the curious toddlers of simple innkeepers, I don't see why being a large bearded fellow should limit my to playing large bearded characters.
I've portrayed characters who were young females, young males, middle-aged males, elderly females, etc.
The easiest, in many ways, were young females, as these happen to be a group of people with whom I have a lot of contact in my social life. I'll grant that my contact with young males is probably equivalent in terms of time spent or specimens interacted with, but on average, I'm less likely to be paying attention to the method of making choices, various moods, emotions and thoughts of the males I interact with than the females. |
| lokilokust |
Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 20:13:28
(sorry for the doublepost, i hit the button a bit too soon.)
as a player, i would feel pretty uncomfortable in a campaign with such restrictions.
even i simply wanted to play a character with the same gender and/or sex identity as myself, i would feel a bit uncomfortable and constrained knowing i didn't have any other options. |
| lokilokust |
Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 20:11:08
personally, i would leave it entirely up to the players and i wouldn't feel comfortable telling them what gender or sex they can and can't play. |
| Weiser_Cain |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 07:12:36
It's harder to play high Int, Wis, Cha or alignment, than it is to play another sex, believe me. |
| Grehnar |
Posted - 05 Feb 2007 : 22:06:29
I'm glad someone else saw the funny side before the debate became all serious again.
I'm also glad that most people don't seem to have to make such a ruling.
Incidentally, even after (now international) debate these two wierd house-rules still stand within our group. |
| Reefy |
Posted - 04 Feb 2007 : 23:04:52
quote:
Originally posted by Grehnar
Since then, I've always insisted on players playing the same sex (and weirdly, the same handedness but I can't remember where that one came from!).
For some reason, that amused me. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 04 Feb 2007 : 22:02:25
LOL, my sister sternly refuses to play females in fantasy games. Her experiences have been, shall we say, troubled... even when I told her females are equals to males in the Realms she insisted on playing a dude. *shrug* and she can swear and shout with the worst of the guys 'round the table also.  |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 04 Feb 2007 : 21:36:40
Then again we have plenty of sourcebooks telling us what Dwarf's are like, Halfling traits, and Elven likes/dislikes.
Whoever wrote a 'Woman' sourcebook would likely either be wrong, or get a slap, or both |
| LordXenophon |
Posted - 04 Feb 2007 : 21:31:42
quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
I'm thinking about asking my players to stick with characters of the same gender as they are in real life (wow that sounds awkward.) What do you folks think about this? Would it be sexist? Or allow the players to identify with their PCs more?
I think this is an excellent idea. While you're at it, you should require them to play their own races. How can a Human possibly know how to properly play a Dwarf? |
| Varl |
Posted - 03 Feb 2007 : 00:59:27
I wouldn't endorse a ruling where you had to play your own gender. Some of my most memorable characters are female. I prefer to play female characters because this is just yet another character choice, like elves, dwarves, gnomes, and halfings, that I don't get to be in real life. It's about escapism. I don't know if I play my female characters "right" or not, whatever that means, but I do play them as I'd play any male character, in that, I do what I can to stay alive.
I've also never found myself in situations where my character's female gender is brought up in game in some metagame manner, so issues of "well, your character would never do that because she's female" just don't happen, and good thing too, because I'd have to reach over and slap the DM for playing my character for me.  |
| Lady Morbannaon |
Posted - 03 Feb 2007 : 00:35:40
The group I DM for are all guys (i'm the only girl) although when they game three of them (we have 5 gamers normally) play female characters. I've never had a problem with them being played awkwardly in fact sometimes they roleplay them better then they do when they are roleplaying character of their own sex. As long as the player is comfortable and is able to roleplay it well I don't see a problem in it. |
| Grehnar |
Posted - 18 Jan 2007 : 23:38:52
Looking back, I think the handedness rule actually came from our players who are more-or-less half left-handers (or right if you prefer). Kind of an identity thing during one game which carried on as harmless baggage rather than anything else. All dodgy rules are there to be debated and cast aside if they cause problems. Nonetheless, these two remain in stark contrast to each other.
The problems arising from bad role playing coming over as sexism / (insert appropriate bigotry) came from the experience of losing people from players not being PC enough. A balance of sensibilities over sense you may think.
More like survival of the group over the years.
Good luck in finding new groups if such minor niggles offend. Not everyone is so lucky. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 18 Jan 2007 : 22:36:33
Hmm, still on about this.
Part of the issue likely is experience and skill of the role player. I have played both genders and recieved kisses for doing so without other play knowing my gender or race (have played others craetures as well as human or huminoid).
I believe the problem that many encounter is preceptions of how another gender or rae will react to a ptoblem, where the better solution is havinf some basic understanding of opposit gender reactionor off course the fictional race reaction should one play that option (elves, draweves, orcs, etc.).
A rule saying one can not play a roll of another gender has flaws as some clearly can interact as other gender with few hints of being detected (there is a person that claimed played an opposit gender role on the internet for two years [if not longer] that was not outed/discovered) that leads me to believe some people can clearly play either role. It clearly appears that Ed of Greenwood, as DM, has played both gender roles.
What I suspect is the limitation is more the DM of a game not being able to deal with players not able to acept a player of one gender playing another, or having a hard time telling one player you do it well, when another player does it poorly.
A fixed rule does make it posible to prevent poor roleplay of other gender, this rule however prevents the roleplayers able to more credible understand and play the other gender from doing so.
In the end the DM needs to decide what works for the local group.
Oh left hand, right hand does not matter all that much to me, but I would leave a game that a DM required me to perfer one hand over the other. |
| Grehnar |
Posted - 18 Jan 2007 : 21:54:18
In a mixed sex group of players, I've found that this has often become either sexist or strained.
Since then, I've always insisted on players playing the same sex (and weirdly, the same handedness but I can't remember where that one came from!).
It seemed better to make an arbitrary ruling and to avoid the serious arguments. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Jan 2007 : 17:12:06
I've never played a female character, myself. I've just not felt like it. I don't think I'd like having the option removed, though -- back when I was playing, I sometimes did try character concepts that I regarded as a personal challenge. |
| RodOdom |
Posted - 18 Jan 2007 : 16:54:08
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Would you force a gay player to 'be himself'?
That's a damn good point ! |
| Bluenose |
Posted - 18 Jan 2007 : 16:37:53
When I'm DMing, I don't mind whether the players have characters that match their genders. I have noticed that it's unusual for them not to, except when they try character types that are unusual in other ways. I'm not sure whether that's partly a matter of distancing themselves slightly froma character they aren't sure they can make work.
When other people are DMing I tend to play male PCs myself. However, one member of the group insists that people roll 1d6 before the start of the campaign, and if they roll a 1 they have to have a character of the opposite gender. But that's Dave. I have noticed that I play female PCs more often than male, or more often than I would in PnP games, when I play various computer games.
On a practical basis I don't see any reason why people can't play characters of the opposite gender. I've certainly had more contact with women than I have with gnomes. |
| Aglaranna |
Posted - 18 Jan 2007 : 16:13:34
I observed that my players prefer to play their own genders, anyway, so this doesn't really come up. I think they're more concerned with who gets the share of the loot than such aesthetic things. (EH! SNEAKYFINGERS! BY ORDER OF THE DM, KEEP YOUR HANDS AWAY FROM THE COOKIE JAR!) *ahem* But my opinion is that, if you WANT to, I guess you should be able to have a go at playing the opposite gender. I personally wouldn't be comfortable with it, but hey, what the heck. If you think about it, DM's got to play all the NPC's anyway, male and female... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Jan 2007 : 08:42:07
Yeah, I think making people play their own gender is VERY Politically Incorrect, especially in this day and age when we have more then two genders.
Would you force a gay player to 'be himself'? Or worse, a gender-confused person? personally, I think Conan in a dress would be funny as hell for a session or two, but it could get pretty disruptive after awhile.
"Live and let live", even in a game. If someone wants to play something as mild as a simple gender-switch, I just thank god its not another conflicted Emo dark Elf ranger. Lord knows there are at least two or three of those in every tavern these days. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 18 Jan 2007 : 00:19:02
Most of my characters are female, as I am...but I'd be damned annoyed if someone told me I had to play a female because they doubted my skills at portraying a male.
Like some of the others here, I don't believe that writing or roleplaying the opposite gender is that much of a stretch, especially in a setting where you can play characters that are of different species and of different worlds. |
| Reefy |
Posted - 17 Jan 2007 : 23:32:43
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Not me. If you want to play an opposite gender, have at it. It's no different then humans playing different races. I mean really, how many demihumans, creatures decended from lower planars or upper planars, etc, do you see wandering around on Earth. :)
So, it's not that far of a stretch for people to play different genders.
Exactly, my thoughts entirely, and I'm pleased to see that I'm not the only one who feels like this.
I remember having this argument with someone on a forum I used to frequent, so to set about proving my point, I created a new profile pretending to be a girl and played a female character in their forum game for a couple of months with nobody suspecting a thing. So that's not only me posing as a girl in the game, but also as a girl making other posts on the forum. Either it's that easy, or I'm a better roleplayer than I'd given myself credit for. I told a couple of people, who admitted they'd been fooled, but not the main guy as I expected him to say 'Yeah, I thought there was something odd about it from the start' or something to that extent.
He also made the point, which I also disagree with, in saying that he thought most authors couldn't convincingly write the other sex. Now, I'm not saying all can, and Erik is probably right in saying that males write/play males better. But my point was that writing a character like that and roleplaying one are not so different. |
| Dreamstalker |
Posted - 17 Jan 2007 : 23:07:35
At the very least, most of us have had exposure to the other gender. I don't know many of us who have had exposure to elves in real life. |
| WalkerNinja |
Posted - 17 Jan 2007 : 22:07:36
To my thinking, this is a bad idea. It is one thing when someone chooses race "X" because of the bonuses it grants and has no idea how to play it.
It is something quite different to choose a variant sex. There is no intrinsic value to playing a character of a different sex or sexuality than the player. Generally this choice is made by the player to enhance his own experience/enjoyment or to fit an arch-type that he has in his mind.
There's no right or wrong way to play a man or woman. There are all kinds of men and women out there. The point is not to role-play an arch-typical male or female, but to roleplay THIS PARTICULAR male or female with all of their incumbent idiosyncratic routines.
This is like banning a character from having a certain hair or eye combination because you're afraid that they would role-play Blonde Hair and Blue Eyes well. |
| Sian |
Posted - 17 Jan 2007 : 21:17:22
its really depends on how good the player is ... if s/he cans ... fair enough ... if it's tried and failed i wouldn't recomment it unless i'm led to believe that it was more the character than the gender that caused it ... or that it was because the player wasn't that good a roleplayer back then |
| RodOdom |
Posted - 17 Jan 2007 : 20:17:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
(sanity prevails in my brain, for once !)
That could be problematic, thinks I...  
True. DnD is ,after all, organized insanity :) |
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