| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Lashan |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 17:27:40
I'm just sort of polling for opinions here. Is anyone else sick of every single bad guy in FR having to be from one of the main bad guy organizations? In other words, aren't there any evil mages out there that aren't part of the zhentarium, cult of the dragon, or a red wizard? When I read Ed's stuff, there always seems to be other cabals, schools of magic, secret groups out there that are bad, but may not be as large as the main bad guys. Perhaps they are only slightly unethical and just out to make themselves rich? It seems to me, though, that any bad guy for any FR product HAS to be associated with one of the large and known evil groups.
Has anyone else felt this way? I know that there are independant bad guys, but it seems that the majority of them are all associated. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 15:02:17
quote:
Originally posted by chosenofvelsharoon
lastly the Undying Queen reference doesn't necessarily mean undead. Myrkul has an Undying Dragon which is no longer undead, that is why it is also called the Eternal Dragon.
Yeah, but her manifesting as a five-headed dracolich is more likely where she gets that name. Since dracolichs are undead, then the name fits. |
| zemd |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 13:31:12
In my game, my players are looking for a very powerful artifact (in fact it's made in 8 different parts) And a lot of thes organisation happened to discover that my pcs possess 4 of the parts, so they'll meet a lot of people from the zhent, the cults... (the more so as they are trying to rebuild a new kind of myth drannor in the process  )
My point is, the people your pcs will met depends on how they're acting, if they can't stand to view a slave and try to free all the ones they meet, they'll surely have trouble with Zhentil keep... |
| chosenofvelsharoon |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 10:43:35
quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
I don't quite buy that she would be disinterested in dracoliches due to their undead nature. She is the Queen of Evil Dragons, one could argue that dracoliches would fall into this category.
She is the queen of evil dragons, living dragons, not skeletons that can be controlled.
The church of Tiamat has been attempting to infiltrate the cult for quite a long time in an effort to co-opt it. They have even attempted to sway others by claiming that her status as the "Undying Queen" is the very essence of dracoliches. It is rumored that her avatar within Castle Perilous is a multi-headed dracoliche. The church of Tiamat has met with resistance infiltrating the cult, but has also had several successes. (Cult of Dragons pgs. 61 - 63)
the end of pg 61 "The Dark Lady expects strong resistance from the more powerful Cult cells' leaders" pg 62 "...the efforts of the Dark Lady's followers have been opposed at every turn by the entrenched Keepers of the Secret Hoard, and her faitheful have been subjected to unspeakable tortures when their ture allegiance was exposed"
This sounds like conflict to me.
However, Tiamat has already demonstrated her willingness to co-opt the worship of idolators by endowing the non-deity that they are worshiping with her divine essence -- most notably the worship of a sphere of annihilation by the Karanok family. (Lords of Darkness 136 - 141)
unfortunately i don't own a copy of lords of darkeness
The cult already has many who pray fruitlessly to Sammaster in the hopes that he will grant their prayers. (Cult of Dragons pg. 30)
pg 30 says "...entries on the list of religous enemies of the cult are the church of tiamat (which actually seeks not to destroy the cult, but to annex the entire Cult...)" additionally later pages say that the cult is a target for acquisition, not for alliance.
a religeous ENEMY. not cohort.
.
Furthermore, the possibility of Sammaster being deified with Tiamat's blessing has been suggested before. (Cult of the Dragons pg. 115)
i assume you refer to the "saint sammaster" story hook. this is just a hook, and if you read the last paragraph, it refers to a "bogus" story the hint is that sammaster is not really ascending but that it appears that way to glorify tiamat.
Frankly, I'd say Tiamat's scared. She's been brought to the point of nearly dying a few times. She wants more power and she wants the safety of being worshipped through multiple channels. This enables one head to be cut off and yet the body to live on. Co-opting the Cult of the Dragon through her church infiltrating the cult will increase her power. Making Sammaster the demigod of dracoliches will do the same, but without straining church resources (allowing them to focus on surviving the Unther invasion) and it will provide yet another "head" for the Darklady.
Sarta
lastly the Undying Queen reference doesn't necessarily mean undead. Myrkul has an Undying Dragon which is no longer undead, that is why it is also called the Eternal Dragon.
"and naught shall be left save shattered thrones, with no rulers but the dead. Dragons shall rule the world entire..." |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 17 Jun 2004 : 02:23:26
Then again...let's face it...it's fun fighting the Zhents and the drow and Thay and the like....
No worries as to alignment...if someone's allied with these groups...you can bet they're evil and let the arrows fly!!!
 |
| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 16 Jun 2004 : 17:37:04
I never realized how incredibly lucky I am.
My players have never really delved into anything resembling realmslore over the years, they prefer to let me do it and let me have it crop up in the game. Due to their nature I reckon I can get at least another 20 years out of existing FR lore alone before they begin to learn enough of it to become jaded with the villains.
Seriously, the amount of exploring and learning they do in the game is vast, yes, but still a fraction of what is out there.
There are a fewinteresting situations though. For one, I am likely to never get the mileage out of the Reds as was intended by the designers. One of my players decided to have his Wizard from there. AS time progresses, and the more Thayan lore I dig up, he just giggles this laugh thqat seemingly compels you to chuckle along with him, and keeps saying "I soo chose the right home region". In fact, he has been playing Red Wizard characters for years, and never knew it!
He is a pretty big 'ol boy, so his laughter is somehow magically imbued with contagiousness, and we are helpless within it's grasp. So, it just seems almost appropriate as I describe some scene in Bezantur, or relate the history of a specific time and he just gets really into it, with is little thayvian laugh of evil.
So, maybe thge old standbys are old hat for a lot of the FR fans, but to the latest crop, it is just so vast and awe inspiring as to keep us entertained for seemingly ever, inconsistencies and all. |
| Sarta |
Posted - 16 Jun 2004 : 16:28:14
I don't quite buy that she would be disinterested in dracoliches due to their undead nature. She is the Queen of Evil Dragons, one could argue that dracoliches would fall into this category.
The church of Tiamat has been attempting to infiltrate the cult for quite a long time in an effort to co-opt it. They have even attempted to sway others by claiming that her status as the "Undying Queen" is the very essence of dracoliches. It is rumored that her avatar within Castle Perilous is a multi-headed dracoliche. The church of Tiamat has met with resistance infiltrating the cult, but has also had several successes. (Cult of Dragons pgs. 61 - 63)
However, Tiamat has already demonstrated her willingness to co-opt the worship of idolators by endowing the non-deity that they are worshiping with her divine essence -- most notably the worship of a sphere of annihilation by the Karanok family. (Lords of Darkness 136 - 141)
The cult already has many who pray fruitlessly to Sammaster in the hopes that he will grant their prayers. (Cult of Dragons pg. 30)
It wouldn't be very hard for her to begin granting these through a newly created Sammaster avatar and then keeping both churches as seperate entities.
Furthermore, the possibility of Sammaster being deified with Tiamat's blessing has been suggested before. (Cult of the Dragons pg. 115)
Frankly, I'd say Tiamat's scared. She's been brought to the point of nearly dying a few times. She wants more power and she wants the safety of being worshipped through multiple channels. This enables one head to be cut off and yet the body to live on. Co-opting the Cult of the Dragon through her church infiltrating the cult will increase her power. Making Sammaster the demigod of dracoliches will do the same, but without straining church resources (allowing them to focus on surviving the Unther invasion) and it will provide yet another "head" for the Darklady.
Sarta |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Jun 2004 : 15:51:11
quote:
Originally posted by chosenofvelsharoon
I know this is from a while back, but i have a thought for Sarta:
Tiamat doesn't like or approve of the cult of the dragon. she thinks undead are an abomination to any dragon. not to mention the cult detracts from her followers. (silly mortals worshiping liches instead of gods)
"and naught shall be left but shattered thrones, with none to rule them but the dead. Dragons shall rule the world entire..."
You are incorrect, my friend. According to Powers & Pantheons, she's actively trying to incorporate the Cult of the Dragon into the ranks of her worshippers, to the point of manifesting as a dracolich version of the Chromatic Dragon.
I'm fairly certain the above information has not been retconned. |
| chosenofvelsharoon |
Posted - 16 Jun 2004 : 15:04:41
I know this is from a while back, but i have a thought for Sarta:
Tiamat doesn't like or approve of the cult of the dragon. she thinks undead are an abomination to any dragon. not to mention the cult detracts from her followers. (silly mortals worshiping liches instead of gods)
"and naught shall be left but shattered thrones, with none to rule them but the dead. Dragons shall rule the world entire..." |
| tauster |
Posted - 12 Jun 2004 : 19:00:46
now thatīs funny:
after writing something and posting it here, i discover a closely related discussion is already in process- 2 posts under mine own!
well, here are my 2c about small individual (but not necessarily evil) organizations:
http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2654
@lashan: i feel the same way. though my players arenīt fed up with zhents or red wizards, i regularly come up with my own villians. some of them may have ties to the "big baddies" or not; that way i keep īem guessing: "does that greedy calishite merchant in tilverton (what the hell does a calishite do in tilverton after all???) really have business ties to zhentil keep?" and so on...
tauster
*still chuckling* |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 12 Jun 2004 : 16:01:58
quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
I am curious - lots of people use the word Zhentarium when describing the Zhentarim organisation. At first I thought it was a spelling mistake but so many people use it. Does it mean something different from Zhentarim? Is it an alternative spelling?
Thanks, and if it is just a spelling mistake, please don't take offernce. Just curious.
No, to my knowledge it means the same organization. |
| Sarelle |
Posted - 12 Jun 2004 : 11:52:56
quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
A real zhentarium agent would be a shadowy figure who is manipulating local thugs, mercenaries, and other groups to cause mischief for the benifit of the Black Network's goals (Taking over all the trade lands, which includes disrupting local kingdoms in an attempt to take them over or reduce their ability to compete). It just seems that there are all these guys labeled "zhentarium" all over the place.
I am curious - lots of people use the word Zhentarium when describing the Zhentarim organisation. At first I thought it was a spelling mistake but so many people use it. Does it mean something different from Zhentarim? Is it an alternative spelling?
Thanks, and if it is just a spelling mistake, please don't take offernce. Just curious. |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 19:42:39
Indeed, Lashan...I'm with you....
I think that 2nd ed. was very stale, and while several authors kept things new and refreshing (Salvatore, Cunningham and Lowder come to mind...), there was a general malaise of over-powerful characters that blew things a part and them put them back together again....
For me, this miasma was not limited to villains, though...enough heroes were equally guilty of this....
However, things have definitely picked up...the return of Shade, the War of the Spider Queen, the march of Obould, and several other series have definitely kept my fingers flipping pages.... |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 16:34:11
quote:
Originally posted by Tethtoril
Of course, if you look at it from the view of giants and orcs, I am sure he is considered a bad guy. Could we please get back to topic now?
There was a D20 module that allowed characters to run an adventure from the bad guys/monster's point of view. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 16:31:52
quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
Another thing is player knowledge vs. character knowledge.
An aspect that perhaps causes some DMs to make the main bad guys from organizations of their own creation. |
| Lashan |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 16:25:29
I believe that the bad guys are great for being really secretive bad guys. I mean, the Black Network is a lot cooler when they are just a few agents directing local thugs to do bad things. Sure, there is the Zhentilar (Zhentil Keep military forces) that are guarding caravans through the Stonelands and the desert, but they shouldn't be around other places. And besides, those are official Zhentil Keep military forces guarding a caravan from that city...not really illegal people (unless they attack and try to sell you into slavery). There shouldn't be all sorts of armed hordes of bad guys with big Z's on their shields and tabards. A real zhentarium agent would be a shadowy figure who is manipulating local thugs, mercenaries, and other groups to cause mischief for the benifit of the Black Network's goals (Taking over all the trade lands, which includes disrupting local kingdoms in an attempt to take them over or reduce their ability to compete). It just seems that there are all these guys labeled "zhentarium" all over the place.
Another thing is player knowledge vs. character knowledge. No one should know who Manshoon is or that he is head of the zhentarium. I mean, it's a secret society. Perhaps, if the characters have done enough delving into the Black Network's secrets, they will learn this, but as "general knowledge", they shouldn't know this at all. I mean, sure the Zhentarium is a large group with fingers all over the place, but they are a SECRET group! There is no way that a farmer in the Dalelands would know who the head of the zhentarium should be.
Now, all that is just discussing the zhentarium! There are lots of groups out there with smiliar issues. Am I making sense? Does anyone else see this as a problem? I'm just venting, really. |
| Tethtoril |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 15:27:17
Raises a busy eyebrow.
Yoshimo, as this is a scroll on bad guys, I hope you are considering Drizzt Do'Urden in their fold. Of course, if you look at it from the view of giants and orcs, I am sure he is considered a bad guy. Could we please get back to topic now? |
| Yoshimo |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 13:27:21
Oh, sorry about the smilies! I forgot to add them.  There, I compensated. Um... Drizzt Do'Urden is the only male drow who is noble in heart. He stood against his own people and caused more problems than any of the wars that broke out down there against the noble houses. This drow is not to be confused with any dancing nude dark elves. He stands for your freedom, sacrificing what he holds dear with his noble panther Gwenhwyvar, and always risking his life for you. He defeated the crystal shard Crinshinnabon, the shard that was to take over the world with it's deadly power. He battled a fiend that nearly killed him, all to save the world. He is the only good drow in the Forgotten Realms. And please, don't insult him again. I also entreat you to pick up a copy of the Icewind Dale Trilogy by R.A. Salvatore. It is well worth it and you will most likely love this book more than any of the others that you read. I know that I did. (Sorry about losing my cool above) |
| Arivia |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 12:02:09
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Sorry, never heard of him. Is he a bad guy? He must be if he's drow and this topic is about main bad guys. Is he a male drow? If so, he's gotta be part of Vhaeraun's followers then if he's a bad guy. If he's not a bad guy, than he must be an Eilistraee follower. He isn't one of those dancing nude dark elves is he? 
Vhaeraun drow... now there are some fun main bad guys. I still love the opening for a section in Lords of Darkness where the dark elf tells a dying foe, "I spit upon the Spider Goddess," or something to that effect.
Maybe he's the first drow with a lightbulb stapled to his forehead? Cause I think I heard he came out of some ancient place or something once... |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 03:57:05
quote:
Originally posted by Yoshimo
Have you no life, Sirius Black?! You do not know of the great Drizzt Do'Urden, Drow ranger of the Underdark city of the Spider Queen called Menzoberranzan?! Drizzt Dourdenthe was created by RA Salvatore, bro! He is the only person who stands against the tyranny of his people! Jeez! The Icewind Dale Trilogy was based around him, The Thousand Orcs, The Lone Drow, The Two Swords! Do not tell me you do not know of Drizzt Do'Urden! 
Sorry, never heard of him. Is he a bad guy? He must be if he's drow and this topic is about main bad guys. Is he a male drow? If so, he's gotta be part of Vhaeraun's followers then if he's a bad guy. If he's not a bad guy, than he must be an Eilistraee follower. He isn't one of those dancing nude dark elves is he?
Vhaeraun drow... now there are some fun main bad guys. I still love the opening for a section in Lords of Darkness where the dark elf tells a dying foe, "I spit upon the Spider Goddess," or something to that effect. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 00:38:34
quote:
Originally posted by Yoshimo
Have you no life, Sirius Black?! You do not know of the great Drizzt Do'Urden, Drow ranger of the Underdark city of the Spider Queen called Menzoberranzan?! Drizzt Dourdenthe was created by RA Salvatore, bro! He is the only person who stands against the tyranny of his people! Jeez! The Icewind Dale Trilogy was based around him, The Thousand Orcs, The Lone Drow, The Two Swords! Do not tell me you do not know of Drizzt Do'Urden!
And this is why we need a smilie to convey sarcasm.  |
| Yoshimo |
Posted - 10 Jun 2004 : 23:58:08
Have you no life, Sirius Black?! You do not know of the great Drizzt Do'Urden, Drow ranger of the Underdark city of the Spider Queen called Menzoberranzan?! Drizzt Dourdenthe was created by RA Salvatore, bro! He is the only person who stands against the tyranny of his people! Jeez! The Icewind Dale Trilogy was based around him, The Thousand Orcs, The Lone Drow, The Two Swords! Do not tell me you do not know of Drizzt Do'Urden! |
| Arivia |
Posted - 10 Jun 2004 : 00:21:21
I'd talk about this, but I'd get out of the Realms very quickly-I'm dealing with this in a setting I'm creating myself right now. I think smaller groups are good-and that a lot of them fall into the gray area. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 10 Jun 2004 : 00:10:44
I myself don't think there's a problem in using main evil organizations. However, this is a matter of opinion. I think that if we put them in there, it would make PCs realize the importance or danger of a quest. Let's say you have been hired to rescue some scholar from the Shadow Thieves. You would then suspect that scholar must know some secret or must be important if the Shadow Thieves would want him. The involvement of the Shadow Thieves lets the PCs know the importance of the rescue without dropping too many hints and spoiling the campaign.
HOWEVER, I disagree with direct confrontation with an evil organization. If it's a small section of a group, that's fine. But if you are going to wage a war against let's say, the Red Wizards of Thay, that would be kinda stupid. Evil organizations in FR aren't really meant to be destroyed outright in a game, suprising as it is. To me, it's to develop more villians or rivals for the PCs to make the campaign more intriguing and exciting. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 09 Jun 2004 : 21:06:03
quote:
Originally posted by Jacinth Greyfox
there vision of the Realms is what they have experienced in my game or some novels they read about a Drow Ranger.
Drow ranger? Who the hell is that? All drow are evil and in the underdark! |
| Jacinth Greyfox |
Posted - 09 Jun 2004 : 20:18:42
I dont really like using the Main Bad Guys and organisations in my game and usually use my own villains or create new mmemebers of established evil groups that i can use with impunity. Knowing that some Wotc plot twist wont invalidate all my work.
Lucky for me i am in the position where my players are happy to just turn up and play, there vision of the Realms is what they have experienced in my game or some novels they read about a Drow Ranger.
That is i dont get complaints about the lack of Zhent content in my game. ( The players have enough on their plates with the Hostower of the Arcane or Talmur Zil, My Red Wizard.) |
| Faraer |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 17:12:57
Yup, got your meaning originally, Lashan. Some people like putting things into slots -- if the vampire's a bit crazy, must be a Malkavian; plotting wizards, must be Zhentarim or Thayan...
"The Great Goblet" in #271, which describes a mercantile secret society based in Scornubel. |
| Lashan |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 17:09:36
Oh, I agree that Ed has never done this. I tried to state that in the original post. I fully understand that this is not Ed's doing. I'm not sure who's doing it is and am not trying to point fingers or blame anyone, really. Just wondering if I am the only one who felt this way.
I agree that it is difficult for FR in the new 3E WOTC/Hasbro world. With the emphasise on stats, PrC's, mini's, and the like it is easy for them to brand things that way. I just hope when things go to 4E that FR is still as interesting as it was before. |
| Mystery_Man |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 17:08:06
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
In fact, all of Ed's Realms writing -- game products, novels and short stories, magazine articles -- have plenty of non-aligned villains. (See "Ed Says: Secret Societies".) I think some other writers have seen the established groups and, consciously or unconsciously, made the mistake of thinking they're something like an exhaustive list, so overused them and made the published Realms less various and multiple than it ought to be. Realms players and readers now have to make an effort to separate the Realms as a secondary world from the Realms as a brand full of brand identities and iconic characters.
What Dragon Magazine article is he refering to in that last paragraph? I'd like to see if I have that one, and having the memory of a goldfish I can't remember if I've read it.
I love making up my own bad guys and do it about 90 percent of the time. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 16:41:50
In fact, all of Ed's Realms writing -- game products, novels and short stories, magazine articles -- have plenty of non-aligned villains. (See "Ed Says: Secret Societies".) I think some other writers have seen the established groups and, consciously or unconsciously, made the mistake of thinking they're something like an exhaustive list, so overused them and made the published Realms less various and multiple than it ought to be. Realms players and readers now have to make an effort to separate the Realms as a secondary world from the Realms as a brand full of brand identities and iconic characters. |
| Lashan |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 15:00:34
Heh...sorry for being so absent on a thread that I started....but work has been busy.
I am not refering to the novels. I don't think I will ever refer to the novels. I don't believe that novels are good game supplements and I only talk about FR as a game. (not that I am trying to start up THAT conversation).
It seems in all game products that come out, it always seems to be about the zhents are doing this or the red wizards are doing that. In Dungeon magazine modules, there are always the standard bad guys mentioned. Sure, there are mentions of the occasional independant bad guy, but the majority of things seem to always use the same bad guy organizations over and over again.
When I play, I rarely use these major bad guy groups. Or, I use them as shadowy and secret organizations that might be controlling the local bad guy group in front of the players. Now, I know that is a good way to do it, but I don't like having the majority of my bad guy groups to be one of the main bad guys listed. I really like to use cabals of merchants or small cults or evil wizards who aren't associated to any other organization at all. It just seems to spoil things when you can chalk up all mischief to the usual suspects.
Another thing is that these secret societies hardly are secret if everyone is freakin' part of it and they are all over the place doing very obvious evil work. I guess it seems like the super heros who always have to battle the same super villians, because that is all that there is in that comic book world. |
|
|
