| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 09 Feb 2016 : 12:20:09
I'm looking more closely at these regions and have found a few things that I'm pondering over and wanted to know what other peoples thoughts are.
Firstly is the ancient nar people. The suren conquered the lands of old narfell as the empire collapsed in the immediate aftermath of the great conflagration. But what happened to the people.
George has some move into impiltur which was presumably far enough away for the suren not to follow (maybe the glacier made it to hard to pursue them). We also know some nar transformed into volodni in the wood to escape the monsters and suren.
So what about the rest.
The suren don't strike me as sympathetic or inclusive based on the modern nar and yet the mongol hordes of real world under ghengis khan were very inclusive of regions they conquered. So did the suren slaughter everyone they found because they were all weakling demon worshippers or did they enslave those that didn't fight.
Did any nar flee to elsewhere like ashanath where the odd weather would keep the hordes at bay and there is sources stating the barbarians of narfell and ashanath don't get on.
Perhaps there were more instances of transformations to escape their death. What about the taer and yeti in Northern narfell, both are humanoid and seemingly isolated in this region, perhaps they are magical in origin (perhaps demonic).
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 21:31:49
Noted Tightpurse existed before Damara, came up with a backstory that fits in with some other ancient history while also working its foundings into events that shape the laws and quirks of Damara
Tightpurse: The Tightpurse thieves guild claims to have origins older than the Kingdom of Damara itself. When the Six merchant houses that came to exploit the mineral wealth of Vaasa and Damara turned on one another, the House of Sarplynd was almost annihilated and ended up expelled from Faernor's Pact. While most of the Sarplyndar retreated to their holdings in the Vast, one vicious bastard born son of House Sarplynd remained to command the remnants of the Sarplyndar mercenary forces.
Known as Steelsuit for his harsh and unyielding nature, the Sarplyndar mercenaries turned to brigandage, preying upon the mining operations and caravans operating in Damara. They quickly became known as the Heralds of Destruction for their habit of taking no prisoners and burning all buildings and other assets (and taking all the money and goods).
Steelsuit and the Heralds of Destruction were a thorn in King Feldrin's side for many years, however, in 1087 DR the Heralds were finally cornered and slain in their hideout in what is now known as the Duchy of Brandiar. The now ageing Steelsuit survived and infiltrated Heliogabalus, trying to foment unrest against the King. Before Steelsuit's plans could bear fruit a hobgoblin horde assailed the Kingdom of Damara in 1095 DR, King Feldrin was incapacitated in battle, his son and successor was driven into exile by the same horde later that year.
Steelsuit spent a whole year organising the merchants of Heliogabalus to muster a defence and succeeded in fighting off 3 attempted sacks of the city, all while building resentment of the Crown among the merchants and mercenary forces. When King Keldrin returned in 1096 DR, after ousting the remaining goblinoid forces from the fields of Polten, he was not welcomed into the city with open arms, instead Steelsuit and the merchants negotiated a number of concessions from the King which became known as the Bloody Code and form the basis of Damara's legal code.
King Keldrin signed the Trade Concessions and enshrined in law a number of protected rights for merchants, their property, and their wealth, as well as agreeing that no King of Damara would ever lead an army to the gates of Heliogabalus ever again. The signing merchants became the first of Damara's Merchant Guilds, including Steelsuit himself (now known as Tightpurse for his miserly ways) who had grown very rich trading in mercenary services.
Steelsuit's success was not to last, within a tenday of the signing of the Trade Concessions he was betrayed by a number of the Merchant Guilds, who gave his identity to the Crown as the instigator of the rebellion. Steelsuit was executed for his treasonous activities (both past and present), and his assets seized, but the Tightpurse guild survived (and still has the original charter, making them an official Crown recognised guild).
Tightpurse today operates as an underground organisation that controls the majority of blackmarket trade in Damara, and contributes to much of the criminal activity as a result. Since its inception Tightpurse has attracted (and actively recruited) opponents of the Crown, those exiled or wanted for treason, seeking to use their infamy and connections while remaining careful to never openly move against the Crown or support those that do. It is only in the aftermath of the War of Bloodied Houses that Tightpurse has allied itself with the insurgent Citadel of Assassins. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 18:18:35
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Just a thought, but if Orcus created the "mercurial" portals by bleeding off energy from Garuut-Cu, how / why did he manage to manifest one beneath the Mines of Bloodstone.
It would either be a massive gamble that just such a portal could be accurately called wherever desired (although i suspect the duergar helped locate the portal and Zhengyi did the hard work), or it is part of some awesome super weapon where Orcus (through Zhengyi) can place an awesome super weapon that possesses any that touch it and transform them into an aspect of Orcus.
I'm also guessing that perhaps Zhengyi is gradually bleeding the energy and it takes time to build up enough to fully open a true portal to allow Orcus complete access to walk right into the material plane.
Hmmm, playing with my idea from before.... the mines of bloodstone might have "the ancient bloodstone seal".... um... Garuut-Heliot. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 30 Aug 2021 : 20:46:46
On a complete other tangent.
The city of Heliogabalus is defended only by mercenaries, no army.
Now i'm assuming this arrangement is historical and not just because Dimian Ree (who ruled Heliogabalus at the time the statement was written) was rich and probably didnt trust local Damarans.
Such quirks usually have a reason for existing due to past events, so i'm wondering what caused the people of Damara or the Royal House of Bloodfeathers to decide that Heliogabalus should have only mercenaries in defence of the capital city.
Initially Heliogabalus was a sacred meeting place of Surennar tribes in the west (the more moderate and tolerant tribes seem located in the west), much like Bildobaris in the east. It could be some ancient Nar custom that means standing military forces are not allowed on a permanent basis.
Feldrin Bloodfeathers had to defeat the Nar tribes with an army, most of whom were mercenaries. It could be that only mercenaries defend Heliogabalus out of tradition for Feldrin's founding of Damara.
Or it could be something more.
Hobgoblins attacked Damara in 1095 DR and occupy large parts of its eastern lands. The King of Damara spent a year in exile in Impiltur (after losing a major battle against the hobgoblins and fleeing for his life). He returns at the head of an army of mercenaries and landless knights from Impiltur.
It could be that the city of Heliogabalus did not welcome this king with open arms (because he lost a major battle and fled in defeat, leaving Heliogabalus to the hobgoblins) and perhaps the King had to attack his own city or bargain his way in, granting certain concessions to the merchants (similar to the barons revolts in England).
So the King if allowed to take up his position again in return for reduced taxes on merchants, and perhaps the merchants having a council to allow them to block crown laws affecting the merchants and Heliogabalus, and also the King is not allowed to ever have an army in Heliogabalus ever again (only mercenaries, which of course can be bribed).
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 30 Aug 2021 : 20:30:33
Just a thought, but if Orcus created the "mercurial" portals by bleeding off energy from Garuut-Cu, how / why did he manage to manifest one beneath the Mines of Bloodstone.
It would either be a massive gamble that just such a portal could be accurately called wherever desired (although i suspect the duergar helped locate the portal and Zhengyi did the hard work), or it is part of some awesome super weapon where Orcus (through Zhengyi) can place an awesome super weapon that possesses any that touch it and transform them into an aspect of Orcus.
I'm also guessing that perhaps Zhengyi is gradually bleeding the energy and it takes time to build up enough to fully open a true portal to allow Orcus complete access to walk right into the material plane.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Aug 2021 : 16:15:17
See, wriggling bait works!
Thinking on what you just noted... I think that's a great idea to have multiple tripartite portals that then someone else has begun to link them (either by putting secondary drops in the same location, or modifying the existing magic). Another such might be Dun-Tharos, Dun-Orthass (citadel of conjurers/adamantine seal site), and another spot (maybe thaymount's demoncyst... though that would be in Raumathar's territory).... maybe we find out there's a link in Nergal's tomb of the Great Barrow or the mulan renegade city of Pholzubbalt (the boneyard). |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 21 Aug 2021 : 15:47:18
Do I smell a wriggling Realmsworm? ;-)
So I like all of Sleyvas's ideas and they would be cool to run with.
However, The Moonsea talks about there being three structures (which I interpreted to mean three portals, as well) in specific in a triangle, so I would be inclined to leave the number at 3.
"Certain sages say that the builders of Ironfang Keep and the Sorcerers' Isle are one and the same. They go on to speculate that both structures are power points of a triangle, but the third point has been hidden. They claim the third point either goes downward into the elven forests of Cormanthor or upward into Vaasa. No one has ever been able to prove this theory, and personally, I think it is a bit far-fetched."
That said, I could imagine other tripartite portal combinations created by the batrachi.
I also wonder if there is a secondary portal set created much later by Orcus that manifests in the form of mercury pools. Maybe he is "bleeding" off the power of the batrachi portal triptych to sustain the mercury pool portals.
--Eric |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Aug 2021 : 21:55:46
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I'm not sure a link exists here, at least not a direct link.
Eltabs imprisonment was secretly driven by Fraz urb lu who provided information allowing Eltab to be imprisoned on the material plane (possibly involving changing part of Toril to include some demonic taint).
Orcus is attempting to enter the material plane through a portal. I imagine it has to be a special type of portal because planar archetypes rarely venture to the material plane (Calim, Memnon, Eltab are all I can think of) and whenever it occurs it is catastrophic.
Now it is likely Eltab was drawn or compelled to enter Toril before being bound. It may be that all portal magic and technology of the power needed to allow an archetype through is derived from a single source, but that is independent of the magic needed to bind an archetype.
If you separate the portals from the binding there may be links within each group, but probably not between groups.
I'm not saying that ALL of those are linked (but they could be midn you). I'm just throwing out options.... and wondering if Eric will bite. You gotta make the cricket wriggle on the hook to get the attention.
That being said, yes, it does appear the Fraz was involved with Eltab being trapped. At the same time, Orcus was involved with Narfell, Orcus knows about this odd network of portals, and the people of Narfell were involved with several of these areas that seemed to have links to portals (for instance, Dun-Tharos was Narathmault.... and Narathmault had a reputation before the drow got there imprisoning demons). In addition, the idea of demoncysts as "spread out all over" kind of screams that somehow his plane got "hooked into" some spread out network of portals. Basically, I very much could definitely see this network of portals being a part of the citadel of conjurers and dun-tharos at minimum, and the area where thaymount exists as well. Now the others... they're options... let's see if we get any kind of a bite (shakes the bait.... shakes the bait.... here fishie fishie fishie... shakes the bait). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 Aug 2021 : 11:47:40
I'm not sure a link exists here, at least not a direct link.
Eltabs imprisonment was secretly driven by Fraz urb lu who provided information allowing Eltab to be imprisoned on the material plane (possibly involving changing part of Toril to include some demonic taint).
Orcus is attempting to enter the material plane through a portal. I imagine it has to be a special type of portal because planar archetypes rarely venture to the material plane (Calim, Memnon, Eltab are all I can think of) and whenever it occurs it is catastrophic.
Now it is likely Eltab was drawn or compelled to enter Toril before being bound. It may be that all portal magic and technology of the power needed to allow an archetype through is derived from a single source, but that is independent of the magic needed to bind an archetype.
If you separate the portals from the binding there may be links within each group, but probably not between groups. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Aug 2021 : 14:50:41
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, redownloading the Jergal article to THIS computer and looking for that new term... so it sounds like the batrachi were involved with this, and there's a lot more info... I skimmed it previously, but I really need to read it. Three of the locations for this Garuut-Omrum (the batrachi name) are
Garuut-Ar at the mouth of the River Stojenaw (Modern: Sorcerer’s Isle in Phlan)
Garuut-Au in the caverns beneath Ironfang Keep (which predated the structure built by the fire giants of Helligheim)
Garuut-Cu covered by the ice of the Great Glacier (Modern: caverns beneath Castle Perilous in Vaasa)
Garuut-Cu (Castle Perilous) is where Myrkul in theory "ascended"... or at least accessed... the path to Jergal's realm.
By the way, I'm curious if there's a play on things with the naming of these... i.e. Cu is copper, Au is gold, Ar is argon... which of course leads me to "The Adamantine Seal" being created by the people of Narfell prior to the creation of Impiltur at what becomes known as the Citadel of Conjurers. Might it be created on some even older site that's tied to the batrachi (or even older to spellweavers). I ask because I very much wonder of the interrelation of the demoncysts, this portal network, Orcus' interests, etc... and perhaps the site of the demoncyst in Thaymount (and possibly the origin of the orcgate) might also be linked into this.
Probably should have been Ag, not Ar.
Yeah, I did look up the symbol for silver. So, would you say I'm on the right road here with that thinking (i.e. that the site of the adamantine seal / citadel of conjurers may be another "link" in this portal network in addition to having a demoncyst there... which may hint that demoncysts have ties to this portal network.... which leads me back to the demoncyst where the athora is)?
So, in that concept, might we "assume" that the site where the adamantine seal was laid might be named "Garuut-Ad" (with me making up a "batrachi metal symbol name" for adamantine of Ad)
Also, the "pyramid" on Sorcerer's isle is "silvery".... might this lead us to believe that there's a "pyramid" that's "coppery" beneath Castle Perilous, a "pyramid" that's "golden" beneath Ironfang Keep, and a "pyramid" that's "black as adamantine" beneath the Citadel of Conjurers / "Garuut-Ad"?
Next, the "athora" that was originally found was a "twisted mass of black metal"..... which MIGHT look like adamantine to some mind you, but I'm not going there.... might the sarrukh or batrachi have created a "pyramid" shape for the Athora metal that's now deep beneath Thaymount? If so, what's the name of this portion of the Garuut-Omrum? Might it be something like "Garuut-Athor"?
Finally, might this portal network also be linked into some other famous pits and portals .... for instance
Dun-Tharos/Narathmault
Athamault (the iron pit) -- and might this be Garuut-Fe
The Pit of Maleficence in Peleverai in the Shaar
The portal in the Shaar for the city of Shandaular
the portal in the ruins of Ashanath for the city of Shandaular (and might this have been the site of the now famous orcgate)
possibly something beneath "The Hill of Seven Lost Gods" in Westgate
possibly buried beneath the waters of Lake Halarahh (spelling?) in Halruaa
possibly even as far reaching as far as the valley of Nexal in Maztica?
Anyone else think of any other special "pyramids" in the lore?
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| ericlboyd |
Posted - 19 Aug 2021 : 01:03:48
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, redownloading the Jergal article to THIS computer and looking for that new term... so it sounds like the batrachi were involved with this, and there's a lot more info... I skimmed it previously, but I really need to read it. Three of the locations for this Garuut-Omrum (the batrachi name) are
Garuut-Ar at the mouth of the River Stojenaw (Modern: Sorcerer’s Isle in Phlan)
Garuut-Au in the caverns beneath Ironfang Keep (which predated the structure built by the fire giants of Helligheim)
Garuut-Cu covered by the ice of the Great Glacier (Modern: caverns beneath Castle Perilous in Vaasa)
Garuut-Cu (Castle Perilous) is where Myrkul in theory "ascended"... or at least accessed... the path to Jergal's realm.
By the way, I'm curious if there's a play on things with the naming of these... i.e. Cu is copper, Au is gold, Ar is argon... which of course leads me to "The Adamantine Seal" being created by the people of Narfell prior to the creation of Impiltur at what becomes known as the Citadel of Conjurers. Might it be created on some even older site that's tied to the batrachi (or even older to spellweavers). I ask because I very much wonder of the interrelation of the demoncysts, this portal network, Orcus' interests, etc... and perhaps the site of the demoncyst in Thaymount (and possibly the origin of the orcgate) might also be linked into this.
Probably should have been Ag, not Ar. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Aug 2021 : 16:44:01
So, redownloading the Jergal article to THIS computer and looking for that new term... so it sounds like the batrachi were involved with this, and there's a lot more info... I skimmed it previously, but I really need to read it. Three of the locations for this Garuut-Omrum (the batrachi name) are
Garuut-Ar at the mouth of the River Stojenaw (Modern: Sorcerer’s Isle in Phlan)
Garuut-Au in the caverns beneath Ironfang Keep (which predated the structure built by the fire giants of Helligheim)
Garuut-Cu covered by the ice of the Great Glacier (Modern: caverns beneath Castle Perilous in Vaasa)
Garuut-Cu (Castle Perilous) is where Myrkul in theory "ascended"... or at least accessed... the path to Jergal's realm.
By the way, I'm curious if there's a play on things with the naming of these... i.e. Cu is copper, Au is gold, Ar is argon... which of course leads me to "The Adamantine Seal" being created by the people of Narfell prior to the creation of Impiltur at what becomes known as the Citadel of Conjurers. Might it be created on some even older site that's tied to the batrachi (or even older to spellweavers). I ask because I very much wonder of the interrelation of the demoncysts, this portal network, Orcus' interests, etc... and perhaps the site of the demoncyst in Thaymount (and possibly the origin of the orcgate) might also be linked into this. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 18 Aug 2021 : 11:51:51
You guys should really read Eric’s work more closely. He always uses the old stuff in new and enhanced ways.
— George Krashos |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Aug 2021 : 00:22:04
Yay, Easter Eggs
So, the silvery pyramid on Sorcerers' Isle is part of this network and is probably a spellweaver (or some other groups) creation
Pg 29 of Moonsea Player's Guide
The Sorcerers' Isle
Some say that this ancient structure was built by wizards and sages from the Old Kingdoms, since its pyramid shape is a form of architecture more commonly found in such lands. In any case, the Sorcerer's Isle seems to have been designed as a place of solitude for wizards to study, perform research, and cast spells.
Certain sages say that the builders of Ironfang Keep and the Sorcerers' Isle are one and the same. They go on to speculate that both structures are power points of a triangle, but the third point has been hidden. They claim the third point either goes downward into the elven forests of Cormanthor or upward into Vaasa. No one has ever been able to prove this theory, and personally, I think it is a bit far-fetched.
Whether this is true or not, many explorers and travelers claim to have seen great numbers of wizards from Zhentil Keep and Thay, and the Cloaks of Mulmaster, exploring the structure at different times. It is thought that perhaps one of those wizard power groups intends to claim the Isle as its own. Since there are several in contention for it, one can only guess at the massive magical struggle that may ensue. Of course, nearby Phlan may suffer greatly from such a battle and would require adventurers to protect the still-recovering city.
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| ericlboyd |
Posted - 17 Aug 2021 : 22:53:35
The portal network is actually Garuut-Omrum. Garuut-Cu is the Castle Perilous terminus. (See Jergal: Lord of the End of Everything.)
The key reference you might have missed is The Moonsea: The Moonsea Player’s Guide, page 29. (Specifically, the reference to Vaasa.)
Other references from that product include: The Moonsea: The Moonsea Reference Guide, page 48, The Moonsea: The Moonsea Player’s Guide, pages 19-20.
The reference to Helligheim comes from Underdark, page 184.
--Eric |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Aug 2021 : 21:18:08
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
The latest Jergal Lord of the End of Everything has Garuut-Cu as part of a spellweaver portal network that the Dark Three use to gain access to Jergal and his domain.
Myrkul journeys to Garuut-Cu and does something there.
Gotcha. I need to relook at that with some research. There were several references that rang a bell, but were names that I wasn't sure where I knew them from. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 17 Aug 2021 : 20:48:45
The latest Jergal Lord of the End of Everything has Garuut-Cu as part of a spellweaver portal network that the Dark Three use to gain access to Jergal and his domain.
Myrkul journeys to Garuut-Cu and does something there.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Aug 2021 : 20:43:02
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
It doesnt mention Garuut-Cu in any of them specifically, it mentions portals.
Eric already placed Garuut-Cu beneath Castle Perilous. In Throne of Bloodstone the heroes enter a mercurial pool that is a portal to the planes.
In Mines of Bloodstone there is a mercurial portal that Orcus uses to transform a duergar into an aspect of himself to destroy the svirfneblin city.
I link the two portals because they are described the same and both are linked to Orcus. I link them to Garuut-Cu because Eric already placed it in Castle Perilous.
The portal nexus thing was my own idea to explain why two portals might be linked. The portal in the mines of bloodstone seems lesser because Orcus doesnt come through it but is able to establish a connection to create an aspect.
Well, where did this term "Garuut-Cu" itself come from? What product? Or is that a homebrew thing from Eric that we're adopting (like the athora, which I wholly accept from Ed/George)? I've never heard of it before this topic. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 17 Aug 2021 : 20:08:03
It doesnt mention Garuut-Cu in any of them specifically, it mentions portals.
Eric already placed Garuut-Cu beneath Castle Perilous. In Throne of Bloodstone the heroes enter a mercurial pool that is a portal to the planes.
In Mines of Bloodstone there is a mercurial portal that Orcus uses to transform a duergar into an aspect of himself to destroy the svirfneblin city.
I link the two portals because they are described the same and both are linked to Orcus. I link them to Garuut-Cu because Eric already placed it in Castle Perilous.
The portal nexus thing was my own idea to explain why two portals might be linked. The portal in the mines of bloodstone seems lesser because Orcus doesnt come through it but is able to establish a connection to create an aspect.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Aug 2021 : 19:42:00
Just a bit of a thought here.... so he "built" Castle perilous atop a portal with a nexus that connects to the Abyss. He built it in Vaasa, a place that likely had some links to Narfell (though moreso in Damara since Vaasa may have been ice covered). Where else have we seen "sudden fortifications" appearing in the realms with ties to a strange "metallic crystal" known as Chardalyn that draws energy from the abyss? Also, a strange series of "portals" or "links" to the Abyss from the realms IN the area of Narfell... the place specifically noted for demoncysts where a layer of the abyss is haphazardly linked to Toril?
Now, I'm not saying to link Crenshinibon with the bloodstone lands, but perhaps there is something to "Chardalyn" and its found all across the realms.... where it may be known by other names. For instance, plangent crystals, curna emeralds, etc... might be somethng similar as well. The athora as well might be a similar type of material, but perhaps "exceptionally enriched" in the way that you can have uranium and "enriched uranium".
Furthermore, regarding demoncysts and the hidden layer of the Abyss being enmeshed with Toril..... what if THAT was an experiment? An experiment that went wrong for some reason (such as Fraz'Urb'luu via his son Rheligaun the Horned of Narfell?), but Orcus wasn't going to "open a portal" from the abyss to the prime. Maybe he was going to transfer a portion of his layer OF the abyss TO the prime.
Like Eric, I'd be very interested to see the actual Garuut-Cu references (is that in mines of bloodstone or KotLD?) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 17 Aug 2021 : 19:08:13
I've added the relevant sections but i'm sure i can do better than that |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 17 Aug 2021 : 18:37:39
Gary,
Since I don't have a searchable version of KotLD, could you include section #s for the Orcus and Garuut-Cu refs?
--Eric |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 17 Aug 2021 : 17:59:28
A few quotes from Knight of the Living Dead
62B
quote:
"If all this fabled Waterdeep can come up with is trinkets
like this staff, where is its power? Where is the
power in all your Realms? The conquest of your Material
Plane will be easier than I had imagined. I have been
deluded. I have squandered my energy on illusionists!"
Orcus's tantrum reveals to you the flaws of its demonic
character. Subtle and brilliant though it is, it leaps
impulsively to conclusions. It mistakes its supremacy in
the realm of the Abyss for equal superiority in the Prime
Material Plane, where its power is weaker. And it makes
no allowance for the bravery and teamwork of human
opponents. Orcus may yet fail to conquer in Vaasa.
113A
quote:
It was Orcus who provided the liches with the magic to
create this vast construct, the Effluvium, the gate in the
catacombs beneath the House of the Homeless, and all
the other details of this fiendish plot. For Orcus, it is
merely a diversion. He plots to conquer the Realms and
establish a base in this dimension, starting with the
nation of Vaasa, far to the east. That land's Great Glacier
is the focus of his scheme.
The demon hopes that by destroying Waterdeep, he
will lure powerful magi away to the west, leaving him to
develop his main plan free of their interference. And all
this would be brought about by a mere fraction of
Orcus's power!
150A
quote:
Orcus ruminates on this, speaking to itself. "Tolerable.
As long as the magi go to Waterdeep to battle the
construct, they do not flout me in Vaasa and Bloodstone
Pass. Soon I will finish my portal and enter the Realms."
It takes notice of you again. "The liches could have
reported this themselves. What brings you to me?"
From those i took that to mean Orcus had long planned to enter the Material Plane in Vaasa and conquer the land. Zhengyi being a major worshipper of Orcus, and active in Vaasa, who built Castle Perilous atop the portal Garuut-Cu, i'm assuming he Zhengyi is the means for Orcus to implement his plan.
In the Mines of Bloodstone there is a mercurial pool that acts as a portal of sorts. In the Throne of Bloodstone there is another mercurial pool that leads to the Abyss. So i connected then together and figured that Garuut-Cu is not a single portal but a nexus of portals that allow you to open a two way portal anywhere you like providing you configure the surrounding portals correctly (kind of like triangulating your position).
So the central portal is beneath Castle Perilous, a connected portal is south of it in Bloodstone Pass. Perhaps another lies to the east near Urshula's lair. Another in the west around Veldrinshalar (sp). And a final one in the north perhaps around Mt. Okk. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Aug 2021 : 13:10:36
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I too thought Zhengyi was slain in the explosion, but apparently not. He was alive when he fled Thay, and it kind of works out because his first dragon friend (one detailed in the throne of bloodstone) was enslaved while he was alive, so I think he became a lich around the time he entered Damara.
As for motivation for conquering Damara. That one is written in Knight of the Living Dead. Orcus is using the portals in Vaasa to enter Toril, the portals in question are a network of spellweaver portals named Garuut-Cu, the main one of which is centred under Castle Perilous.
Zhengyu must have had to go to each portal in the network and point it to the Abyss (one of these portals was in the Mines of Bloodstone). Once all connected Orcus can come through.
I would imagine you cant use just any portal to connect to the Abyss, I think it has to be special, and Garuut-Cu qualifies. Maybe the empire of Narfell tried to conquer the Netarand way back when because they were looking for the Orcgate to bring a demon lord to the material plane.
Knight of the living dead... that was one of the choose your own adventure type kids books, correct? I don't think I've ever had it. Any chance you can give some quotes from it regarding the Garuut-Cu, because otherwise I'm betting that info will be lost to time? That actually sounds interesting to some degree and something we can build a lot from. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 16 Aug 2021 : 21:03:59
I too thought Zhengyi was slain in the explosion, but apparently not. He was alive when he fled Thay, and it kind of works out because his first dragon friend (one detailed in the throne of bloodstone) was enslaved while he was alive, so I think he became a lich around the time he entered Damara.
As for motivation for conquering Damara. That one is written in Knight of the Living Dead. Orcus is using the portals in Vaasa to enter Toril, the portals in question are a network of spellweaver portals named Garuut-Cu, the main one of which is centred under Castle Perilous.
Zhengyu must have had to go to each portal in the network and point it to the Abyss (one of these portals was in the Mines of Bloodstone). Once all connected Orcus can come through.
I would imagine you cant use just any portal to connect to the Abyss, I think it has to be special, and Garuut-Cu qualifies. Maybe the empire of Narfell tried to conquer the Netarand way back when because they were looking for the Orcgate to bring a demon lord to the material plane. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Aug 2021 : 20:50:31
I wouldn't link him to the Shou at all (and I pronounce is differently personally.... I say Zhen-gee-yee.... maybe that's wrong, but its how its implanted).
On why he worships Orcus and his involvement with the Athora, I've long held a suspicion that Zhengyi was looking to gain access to the mysteries of Dun-Tharos and Narfell and didn't actually much care about ruling Damara. I believe that Jorgmacdon Odesseiron (the first Zulkir of Conjuration who summoned/bound Eltab) and Zhengyi were both deeply interested with the demoncysts and Narfell (remembering that the place where Eltab bound was a demoncyst, but it was also where they found the athora). Jorgmacdon (as a conjurer) would have been interested in Narfell for its demonic lore, and Zhengyi for its necromantic lore (remember during much of its history, Narfell worshipped Orcus, so they had lots of necromancy as well).
I have a suspicion that the binding of the "hidden layer" of the Abyss to the realms (creating demoncysts) via the adamantine seal may have involved using the power of the athora, and certain key locations of Narfell may have also held "pieces" of the athora pulled away by nar tribesmen during the orcgate wars. It may even be that the athora had some involvement with powering the orcgate or summoning the avatars of the orcish gods, and that the defeat of the orcish avatars involved breaking apart the athora by the Mulan manifestations or something similar.
I do like your idea of Zhengyi binding himself to a piece of the Athora in a ritual like lichdom. Perhaps in so doing, he cannot be destroyed utterly without destroying the entire athora. Perhaps he traded to Orcus for information to stabilize himself after the explosion of the athora (such that unlike Ythazz Buvarr, who became a lich but "turned quickly into a demilich"... Zhengyi stayed in lich form), and perhaps the trade off was that Orcus required him to conquer the "ancient lands of Narfell" in his name. Possibly Orcus was looking for something there as well that his past worshippers had left behind. Since many of Kiaransalee's worshippers are also in the mountains in that area (per demihuman deities, in the former drow city of V’elddrinnsshar). To note as well that Dun-Tharos is also linked back to the dark elven city of Narathmault as well, which was also noted to have a lot of entrapped demons, etc.... |
| Baltas |
Posted - 16 Aug 2021 : 17:47:52
Zhengyi is mentioned to like Orcus, hate living beings (though Orcus is mentioned as hating all things, undead just kinda a bit less and he thinks can control them), so it could be a factor in it. Fiendish Codex also mentioned undead can be forced by pacts or compelled by Orcus' power to serve him.
It's possible Zhengyi made a pact with Orcus, possibly even tied to how he became a Lich, with Orcus using his power and porfolio to compell Zhengyi to outright worship him over time, also their shared hatred of living.
It's also possible Zhengyi worshipped Orcus before lichdom.
But I don't know any offical stance on this.
I also now discovered Zhengyi's name, is Chinese in origin - Zhengyi, Zheng Yi - "Orthodox Unity".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhengyi_Dao
I don't remember it being elaborated, or suggested in Forgotten Realms lore that Zhengyi had any connected Shou Lung (though Imaskar to which Thay is connected via Thayd, is connected to Shou), or the Bloodstone Pass Saga (about Zhengyi's origin, beyond his name). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 16 Aug 2021 : 07:20:35
Has anyone ever considered how Zhengyi came to worship Orcus. I mean, there isnt exactly much cause or need for it in lands like Halrua and Thay. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 15 Aug 2021 : 19:48:18
I like the athora. I note the part about trying to wrest parts of it free and carried it with them.
What if Zhengyi was somewhat successful. Having a piece of the athora (an incredibly powerful weave anchor) on his person could explain why he can cast project image many many miles away.
I did note Zhengyi has an item that seems pretty pathetic given his epic level, the Talisman of Orcus. It could be that he shaped this piece of the athora into a vague goats skull shape (or ot happened to be broken off like that).
Later experiments allowed it to augment his spellcasting far beyond things like a ring of wizardry.
What if he went even further. What if that talisman is his phylactery (if I understand it right any suitably prepared vessel can serve as a phylactery). Perhaps that is how he managed to succeed where the other members of the Thael failed, he tied the athora to his own soul, allowing him to use it.
That would mean he has a link to the weave few others possess, and he could be like a demilich mixed with a weave ghost that possesses bodies connected to him through the specially prepared soul gems. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Aug 2021 : 16:47:50
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
After read ing through the sellswords trilogy I'm struck by a few things regarding zhengyi.
1 - the trilogy mentions soul gems multiple times
2 - the trilogy hints at zhengyis return many times
3 - I got the feeling herminicle was transforming into zhengyi, his words made it seem that way
4 - creatures tied to soul gems are unable to leave their tower
Now I've heard of soul gems before, used by demiliches. Could it be that zhengyi is a demilich. If so, was the zhengyi that we know about even the real zhengyi (he could have been just another lich possessed by zhengyi
Then there is the novel If They Ever Happened Upon My Lair. As far as naming conventions go it was one of his better novels.
In it Zhengyi uses magic to project an image 20+ miles away, he cant interact with things and cast spells through this image.
So if Zhengyi can manifest this projected image over great distances, and if those beings tied to soul gems cannot leave their tower, is it not possible that Zhengyi in 1358 was just a possessed licking and that he never actually left Castle Perilous but did in fact project his image when needed (although I dont ever recall an instance of him leaving castle perilous.
This begs my next question. How did Zhengyi acquire the power to project an image over so many miles. If he did appear at the Battle of the Ford, or on Bloodstone Village, or in the Citadel of Assassins, then that's over 50 miles away I believe.
Some things to bear in mind with regards to Zhengyi that COULD be used to play things up.
First, as you probably note somewhere in here, he is an EX-red wizard. I've often wondered about that EX part of it and whether he, as a "renegade" red wizard, had any involvement with the other "renegade" red wizard that has so much notoriety (Velsharoon the Vaunted). To add to this, I think my musings may have synched with George's because he added Zhengyi as one of the founding members of Thay and had him involved with the Athora in his "Tyrants in Scarlet" offering on DM's Guild (where it also says he's from Halruaa and gives him a last name Arulath). To note, that same article has Ythazz Buvarr instantly becoming a demilich as a result of the energies of the athora being released AND "destroying" the body of the conjurer/summoner of Eltab, Jorgmacdon Odesseiron
One of the things we've wondered is HOW did the Athora's energies affect Zhengyi. To add to this, for THAYD (i.e. head of the Theurgist Adepts/"last Imaskari"/supposed reason for Orcgate War) its been said by Ed that he in many ways acts like the beings we know of as "Suel Liches". Thus, they possess other beings and burn their bodies out. For all we know, Zhengyi was the same way.
I personally prefer the idea that SOME of these beings, rather than being "destroyed" were sent "to the place where vestiges go" as a result of their interaction with the energy of the athora. This puts the source of the energy of the Athora as very much in question and makes it a very unusual artifact that we can do a lot with. In doing this, I can make Jorgmacdon a vestige in some campaigns if I want to (in 5e, I've brought him back as having been rescued from the pit of Maleficence in Peleverai, the same one that once held Gargauth, which has ties to more than the hells in my homebrew. Its similar to the wells of darkness AND it may have a portion of the Athora there as well (and there may be some linkage of demoncysts to said artifact as well, since in theory there is a demoncyst where Eltab was bound in Thay as the source of the river that fed Eltabbar).
Other options were that back in 2nd edition there were spells to inhabit a dead body and use it as your "vessel" to enter an area, etc... (kind of like mind jar, but using a dead body). There were also spells to project spells through a scrying medium. I would not be surprised if Zhengyi was using multiples of these types of methods.
Sidenote: there's also GOOD EX-red wizard in the area as well who founded the Twilight Riders (Myrddin Viligoth... who in 3rd edition I turned into a paladin/wizard of Ilmater).
From George's article below
In the aftermath of Thay’s independence, Ythazz Buvarr and his zulkir companions sought answers to the wellspring of magic they had tapped to both summon and bind the fiend Eltab to their bidding. Their quest unveiled to them the majesty and sheer might of magic that was the Athora in the Year of Sudden Sorrows (941 DR). In their folly they sought to wrest parts of the Athora free so as to carry them on their person and call on its power at will. Their efforts resulted in a magical backlash that saw the cavern containing the Athora collapse, burying it and slaying over a score of the most powerful Red Wizards, including the zulkir Jorgmacdon. Ythazz was saved only by his pre-prepared spell contingencies that whisked him away to a hidden lair but the power of the Athora triggered his transformation to lichdom and accelerated it so that within a matter of months he had become an insane demi-lich, shunned by all. Both Velsharoon and Zhengyi escaped the explosion but were severely wounded such that when Tarloth Narmandur struck at them from the shadows, they were forced to flee Thay leaving it without clear leaders. Rudderless, the Red Wizards of Thay showed all the worst traits associated with grasping wizards presented with an opportunity to seize power. Attempts to govern their number by means of a Grand Council failed utterly when the factions of the powerful Red Wizards Tarragas and Haramadonn “the Flame-Etched” annihilated themselves and a score of neutrals at a gathering held ostensibly to discuss a system of rule. All the while Tarloth Narmandur took his opportunity to winnow the Red Wizard ranks of any mage he deemed a potential threat. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 15 Aug 2021 : 08:11:59
Oh and my take on the citadel of assassins, it's a hard slog trying to realsmify the names at the moment and expand upon the single line of text about most of them.
Always grateful for some help if anyone really loves Damara and wants toget stuck in
https://alternaterealmsblog.wordpress.com/home/organisations/bloodstone-organisations/the-citadel-of-assassins/
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