| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 10:01:18
I found this quote about Thay which i find intriguing and a number of others that lead me to think Thay and its Zulkirs are being manipulated by a number of secret societies with even more powerful beings behind them
quote:
Despite the establishment of a political system, the conflicts between Red Wizards continued, with the Zulkirs acting as agents for the cabals of wizards who elected them and the tharchions in turn acting on behalf of their Zulkir patrons
quote:
Thay a patchwork of competing political factions, cabals, conspiracies, and secret societies. Given this, it is no wonder that every attempt at expansion by the Thayans has collapsed into internecine bickering, with tharchion fighting tharchion and Red Wizard battling Red Wizard. Many hidden civil wars have wracked Thay throughout its history, though the land remains secure within its borders.
Obviously one of these cabals would be the original Order of the Black Flame, in fact Ythazz Buvaar may be the force behind this particular order. I'm wondering if another cabal is not the Cult of Eltab since he has been a power in Thay since the beginning.
Perhaps there are some Raumathari and Narfelli orders in Thay - Aznar Thrul seems to have a plan involving Gem Golems which are constructs that matches Raumathar's field of interest. The recent Salamander War involved plenty of summoning (including an avatar of Kossuth) so that is Narfell's field of interest covered.
I wonder if the Sarrukh are not involved as well. The Citadel is a remnant of theirs so there may be a lich or two in it's dungeon levels that are communicating with agents on the surface.
Also i'm sure i read on these boards that there is a Raumathari weather controlling device in one of the structures on the Thaymount. Anyone have any more details on this? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 12 Apr 2014 : 05:08:00
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I'd suggest adapting the Spell Perfection feat with regard to the Red Wizards, and granting it to them either as a capstone or at 5th level.
Focused Perfection At 10th level, the Red Wizard has mastered the intricacies of his specialized school, which grants him potent benefits. First, when the Red Wizard acquires (or already has) a feat that alters a set numerical bonus to spells from his specialized school (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray] and so on), he doubles the numerical bonus.
In addition, once per day the Red Wizard may spontaneously apply a metamagic feat he knows to any one spell of his specialized school.
Therefore, assuming Tattoo Focus, SF and GSF, the RW is already looking at a whopping +6 DC.
Very interesting idea, though it would probably be best if you spell out exactly what numerical values can be doubled (say caster level and save DC and maybe bonus to saves to resist). I could see this encouraging more shadow weave users in Thay than there were previously (at least for enchanters, illy's and maybe necros).
By set numerical bonus, I mean bonuses that provide a flat benefit instead of a random dice roll. Weapon Focus [ray, melee touch], Spell Focus, Spell Penetration and so on fit, Arcane Defense doesn't.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Apr 2014 : 10:59:18
quote:
Originally posted by Ilmarinnen
I found it!
Lords of Darkness p. 56
Members: Approximately 1,000 actual Red Wizards, with
approximately 5,000 practicing wizards in their service.
Interesting, so 3rd edition where they lowered the bar for becoming a "red wizard" to 6th lvl instead of 9th. I wonder if they're basing this on some obscure lore from previous editions, or if they just pulled the number from a hat (i.e. did they say 1000 somewhere previously when the level was 9th). Still, I agree, the 350/400 (depending on edition) as all being "true" red wizards is a little out of the box, and I'm betting at least half of them are "practicing wizards"... or what I term in my homebrew as bloodcowls. At the lower levels, having a griffin mount would be pretty amazingly useful, but at the upper levels they'd be dead in the first blast. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Apr 2014 : 10:48:24
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I'd suggest adapting the Spell Perfection feat with regard to the Red Wizards, and granting it to them either as a capstone or at 5th level.
Focused Perfection At 10th level, the Red Wizard has mastered the intricacies of his specialized school, which grants him potent benefits. First, when the Red Wizard acquires (or already has) a feat that alters a set numerical bonus to spells from his specialized school (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray] and so on), he doubles the numerical bonus.
In addition, once per day the Red Wizard may spontaneously apply a metamagic feat he knows to any one spell of his specialized school.
Therefore, assuming Tattoo Focus, SF and GSF, the RW is already looking at a whopping +6 DC.
Very interesting idea, though it would probably be best if you spell out exactly what numerical values can be doubled (say caster level and save DC and maybe bonus to saves to resist). I could see this encouraging more shadow weave users in Thay than there were previously (at least for enchanters, illy's and maybe necros). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 09 Apr 2014 : 11:52:48
Dammit i just realised i added these to Thay instead of Thar. Doh  |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 09 Apr 2014 : 09:47:14
I am wondering if Iyrauroth didnt inherit an obsession with magical powers and magical items like his sister and i think he may even be trying to replicate the spell his sister failed to perform.
Using another of my musings about Iyrauroth and that he is searching for whatever artefact is under Ravens Bluff that saturates the area with magical energy.
He could use this artefact (which i think was from Uvaeren or part of the meteor that crashed into Uvaeren) to cast the spell his sister messed up. That way it would not run out of magic to drain and so would work as expected; although what the results could be i dont want to think about as i suspect it means all this magic would be infused into Iyrauroth making him possibly one of the most magically powerful beings on Toril |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 09 Apr 2014 : 09:44:23
Cauldron of Monsters, yet another awesome piece of realmslore that fills in a crucial moment of Thar history i.e. when Thar was created in its current form.
So we have the creation of Thar between -356 DR and before 400 DR because Horreb, Barze and that barbarian culture occupied the land of Thar and the area was definitely not a wasteland then, and by 400 DR Iyrauroth was taking part in destroying Northkeep with his brood (score another point for one of my musings).
Further complete speculation to narrow it down somewhat more. The Quivering Forest was planted in 367 DR by the elves to mark the founding of Phlan. I speculate that this forest was actually planted to limit the growth of Thar and keep the human settlements of the Moonsea safe from the wasteland (which has been growing gradually)
Northkeep was also founded in 348 DR so it would make sense for Iyrauroth to be around since before its founding that way he would be more likely to take offence at the humans settling in his domain.
Now since Iyrauroth is Embrurshaille's sister it seems sensible that he inherited her perceived domain (kind of like human kings) at least in Iyrauroth's mind anyway.
Embrurshaille's perceived domain is between the Earthspur Mountains and the Galena Range to the Far Hills and the Orsraun Mountains. Of course Thauglorimorgorus and Venom cut down this domain to just the Moonsea but there is no reason he couldnt have warred with them over the borders.
Iyrauroth however would not fare so well against human kingdoms such as Netheril so it may also be sensible to have him arrive after the fall of Netheril. Also Embrurshaille's writeup states she began assembling many magic items to power her spell so if Netheril had already fallen when she began this spell she could collect her items from there.
Now i am thinking dating the event before -205 DR because it is in this year that Thauglorimorgorus lost his battle of honour for control of the Forest Kingdom, and since it mentions the Purple Dragon being one of her feared neighbours who she worked against he should still be in control of that area when she is around.
The problem with this however is that the article specifically mentions Thauglorimorgorus as the Purple Dragon of Cormyr which could be seen as pointing to Cormyr existing when Embrurshaille existed (26 DR onwards). Although it could also mean the narrator simply used the dragon's most common name so everyone would know.
If Thar was created after 26 DR, that leaves less than 400 years for the ogres to create a kingdom and lose it which isnt a problem in itself but other dates make it a problem.
For instance in -206 DR the real Venom was slain which would severely reduce competition in the area for Embrurshaille and so she could have expanded into Cormanthor but didnt which suggests she may have already been dead by then.
So how about year of the Impudent Kin (-280 DR) signifying Iyrauroth's return to steal all Embrurshaille's hoard. Or Year of the Empty Soul -220 DR to signify Embrurshaille's failed spell that does something unknown to her soul possibly joins it with the weave.
Looking forward to many more articles on Thar. Its such an interesting place. |
| Ilmarinnen |
Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 12:49:05
quote:
hexblade idea is a sound one as well, though I'm betting they'd be extremely rare. I don't see enough of them being around to form a group, but they might have an existence say within a warrior academy
Just quoting...
https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070523
There is only one hexblade college on Faer#251;n, Hexcidon, and it is housed in Bezantur. At this school, generations of hexblades study to become elite bodyguards and generals for Thay. |
| Ilmarinnen |
Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 07:30:24
I found it!
Lords of Darkness p. 56
Members: Approximately 1,000 actual Red Wizards, with
approximately 5,000 practicing wizards in their service. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 07:02:35
I'd suggest adapting the Spell Perfection feat with regard to the Red Wizards, and granting it to them either as a capstone or at 5th level.
Focused Perfection At 10th level, the Red Wizard has mastered the intricacies of his specialized school, which grants him potent benefits. First, when the Red Wizard acquires (or already has) a feat that alters a set numerical bonus to spells from his specialized school (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray] and so on), he doubles the numerical bonus.
In addition, once per day the Red Wizard may spontaneously apply a metamagic feat he knows to any one spell of his specialized school.
Therefore, assuming Tattoo Focus, SF and GSF, the RW is already looking at a whopping +6 DC. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 03:39:48
On the idea that there are only 1000 red wizards, I'd be interested more in the source of any such quote because of editions. It should be noted that in previous editions you couldn't be a red wizard until 9th lvl, whereas in 3e that becomes 6th lvl. Griffins were also more powerful mounts in the earlier editions. Either way, there are roughly 5 million people in Thay, of which 3.1 million are humans. To say that there is only 1 red wizard for every 5 thousand people in Thay would I think be a gross under estimation (now, if we were to say there may only be 1000 red wizards capable of leading a circle... that may be closer to the truth). That being said, it might be hard to believe that there are 350 individual red wizards of 6th lvl or higher that are riding griffins.... so I'd probably propose a somewhat mix here and state that roughly half of these "red wizards" are in fact still "bloodcowls" in training to become red wizards (say 3rd lvl wizards minimum, with 4th and 5th being more common). It might even be that a dozen or two of these red wizards are actually simulacrums as well (possibly sent to protect apprentices and/or children of powerful Daerons and Daeronnesses), or specifically to be used to protect any necessary retreat (assuming they have some teleportation means, as these would be valuable commodities to lose unless things were extremely desperate). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 02:05:51
btw, as long as we're talking about RW's, I have to say that the 3.5 version was by far the worst (and I say that while also noting that 3.5 is my favorite edition). In second edition, you had two versions of the RW kit. The first was pretty simple, they just got bonus spells and were a little more effective casters of those spells, and no extra opposition schools, but their opposition schools were more likely to affect them. The second kit allowed them to specialize in 2 schools of magic, but they took both opposition schools. However, for some combinations, this wasn't really an issue (invoker/diviners & enchanter/illusionists & illusionist/transmuters were. Under 3.0 they did the most abominable thing with the forcing them to remove 3 schools of magic (and they cleaned up the schools so they made more sense), which was a real crimp in their style of play.... BUT they had spellpower that increased the DC's in their chosen school enormously... so it was somewhat understandable and the red wizards truly became masters of their particular school. However, in 3.5 they turned around and turned the spell power into just bonus caster level, so the only way they could increase a spell's DC was through heightening it (granted, which was possible via their circles), but they still pulled away the extra school of magic. At the same time, they did NOT similarly gimp the Halruaan elder nor the Hathran (who could also use circles to heighten their spells). Granted, at their capstone ability, the red wizards can pull in more people to enhance their circles than the other two, but the other class abilities of the other two are also vastly better (Hathrans being able to spontaneously change spell, Halruaan Elders being able to severely reduce the metamagic cost of the spells they enhance in their circle... i.e. they can maximize and empower a spell for what it would cost a red wizard to maximize a spell, or they can heighten by 2 levels for just 1 lvl cost a LOT of spells). So, I bring this up because I feel there's a couple quick fixes. First, remove the extra school loss (this effectively makes the prestige class similar to the 2nd edition class in spellbound). The next option, keep the third opposition school, but for all wizards make opposition schools work like they do in Pathfinder, in that they CAN cast spells from their opposition school, just it raises said spells level (my preferred option, but it does affect ALL wizards). Third, keep spell power working for just red wizards the same way it did in 3.0, such that the DC's of their spells from their chosen school are extremely high (prefer this the least, as it really screws diviners and abjurers). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 01:04:39
You know, in talking about simulacrums, it occurs to me that there could be a really interesting spell. What if there were a spell that allowed a wizard to transfer his ability to command a simulacrum into an item, such that the wearer of said item could command the simulacrum. It might be an item creation instead of a spell too. Main thing, the owner has to willingly give up his ability to command a simulacrum. It wouldn't happen often, because lord knows the 1000 xp (or more) loss to create the simulacrum is hefty. However, I can see a Daeron or Daeronness who is worried about his child being willing to create a simulacrum (or buy a simulacrum if said Daeron or Daeronness is only noble and not a powerful wizard) to protect his child. This especially proves interesting if he decides he wants a healer instead of a wizard..... I wonder how deities feel about the worship energy provided by simulacrums (I guess it would be no different than an intelligent construct that learned to worship). I wonder how churches would feel about such simulacrums.... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 00:48:35
quote:
Originally posted by Ilmarinnen
No need to quarrel. I just describe what I accepted in my campaign.
quote:
warmages, dread necromancers, beguilers, binders
They are not core and are not mentioned in sources except Class Chronicles. And even there they are described as very limited groups with very specific origin.
What I meant is that mage primary training in Thay is concentrated in a small number of academies all in possession of schools. There their personalities are formed and academies mean much to them. A mage asking for employment in a guild or a legion may first be asked, where did he study, and if there are doubts it is easily checked.
Still I believe A Thrul could found an establishment for training warmages or Mythrellan - for beguilers. But still within their schools. Real political power lies with them.
Still why not if it benefits you campaign and plot?
quote:
bards
If you like to propose some special training for charismatic children, I'd rather recommend school of hexblades. It is mentioned in Class chronicles. Theremore (I guess it was mentioned in UE), singing/dancing are considered a shameful activity for self-respecting thayan mulans.
quote:
Numbering over 350 griffons, each with a Red Wizard mount,
In fact. One can not argue with sources :-)
Can't find the original quote but it was mentioned thet the whole number of RW is about 1.000. Would that mean more than a third of all RW in existence concentrated in one unit?
quote:
i.e. eldritch knights, mystic theurges, and arcane tricksters being the most common examples, but also wizards who choose other paths
I supposed that having status of RW and right to wear scarlet robe did not require one to have exactly PrC of Red Wizard? They can be master specialists, shadow adepts, archimages. For some specialists, like for abjurers, RW PrC is not worth efforts. It's rather a sign of power and employment into organization.
quote:
, I've had a guild whose purpose was to act as a contractor for these services
Sound idea!
quote:
It is known that many powerful but dead red wizards are known to exist on and supporting this guild... but as simulacrums.
I like that! Is there some official info on simulacrum wizards?
By the way rules on simulacri in SRD are quite vague... What happens to one when its creator dies? Do they age? Do they have normal organic needs like breathing and eating?
No quarrel (sorry, sometimes my writing comes off that way).
The hexblade idea is a sound one as well, though I'm betting they'd be extremely rare. I don't see enough of them being around to form a group, but they might have an existence say within a warrior academy (or maybe amongst the group teaching eldritch knights, warmages, etc...). I've never much cared for bards in Thay, I only listed them as they would be an option that I see the school of divination favoring for any children more inclined to charisma than intelligence (and some bards could fit in with enchanters and illusionists.... but I'm betting any children affiliated with families with strong ties to those schools would more guide their children towards beguiler and/or arcane trickster).
On the red robes, I've been somewhat on the ropes there when 3rd edition came out. Personally, what I decided is that all arcane casters were allowed to wear red, but its a specific hue of red (a deep blood red). I then adopted a term used in previous editions to describe these wizards (i.e. bloodcowls). (note: in the following, I'm capitalizing RED WIZARD to simply convey their self-importance within the country). Its a very important distinction because only RED WIZARDS can order folks about. If a bloodcowl were to try and order about a RED WIZARD, he's likely to earn the ire of the other RED WIZARDS who want to keep themselves as a group in power. Now, some of these bloodcowls are powerful enough that they might be able to disregard an order from a RED WIZARD, but they do not have the right to order about any troops (unless of course they are given said rights by a RED WIZARD). So, oftentimes, these RED WIZARDS actually join the prestige class for the political power (as well as the benefits gained through circle magic).
On simulacrums, yes, there is limited information on how they react to things like time. Personally, my take on them is that they are constructs, but they are constructs that don't have any of the features & traits of the construct type. So, its my viewpoint that they do indeed age, and they are formed at the same "age" that the body was that they are formed from (and therefore creating a simulacrum from someone that died of natural causes would result in a dead simulacrum, but if you have magically preserved a corpse you killed.... its usable). They do need to eat to fuel the body. However, unlike living people, they don't naturally heal (though I assume their bodies can fight off things like a minor cold virus without needing a cure disease). As to whether they outlast their creator... my personal take is yes, and they continue to follow the last command they were given (note, I consider them to be more complex than other constructs and thus able to understand very complex commands). So, a simulacrum who was ordered to serve the guild in any circle castings they require would continue to do so.... even if the guild say ordered the creator's death through the assassin's guild. Of course, the guild may not know that the creator also ordered the simulacrum to attack the leaders of the circle guild should he not show up at least once a month to check in on him. |
| Ilmarinnen |
Posted - 07 Apr 2014 : 12:41:27
No need to quarrel. I just describe what I accepted in my campaign.
quote:
warmages, dread necromancers, beguilers, binders
They are not core and are not mentioned in sources except Class Chronicles. And even there they are described as very limited groups with very specific origin.
What I meant is that mage primary training in Thay is concentrated in a small number of academies all in possession of schools. There their personalities are formed and academies mean much to them. A mage asking for employment in a guild or a legion may first be asked, where did he study, and if there are doubts it is easily checked.
Still I believe A Thrul could found an establishment for training warmages or Mythrellan - for beguilers. But still within their schools. Real political power lies with them.
Still why not if it benefits you campaign and plot?
quote:
bards
If you like to propose some special training for charismatic children, I'd rather recommend school of hexblades. It is mentioned in Class chronicles. Theremore (I guess it was mentioned in UE), singing/dancing are considered a shameful activity for self-respecting thayan mulans.
quote:
Numbering over 350 griffons, each with a Red Wizard mount,
In fact. One can not argue with sources :-)
Can't find the original quote but it was mentioned thet the whole number of RW is about 1.000. Would that mean more than a third of all RW in existence concentrated in one unit?
quote:
i.e. eldritch knights, mystic theurges, and arcane tricksters being the most common examples, but also wizards who choose other paths
I supposed that having status of RW and right to wear scarlet robe did not require one to have exactly PrC of Red Wizard? They can be master specialists, shadow adepts, archimages. For some specialists, like for abjurers, RW PrC is not worth efforts. It's rather a sign of power and employment into organization.
quote:
, I've had a guild whose purpose was to act as a contractor for these services
Sound idea!
quote:
It is known that many powerful but dead red wizards are known to exist on and supporting this guild... but as simulacrums.
I like that! Is there some official info on simulacrum wizards?
By the way rules on simulacri in SRD are quite vague... What happens to one when its creator dies? Do they age? Do they have normal organic needs like breathing and eating? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 07 Apr 2014 : 06:05:48
I consider that before the Zulkirate, the Red Wizards were likely a motley crew of assorted spellcasters, affiliated more in terms of cults of personality rather than spellcasting schools or traditions. Once the Council of Zulkirs was created, I consider that these "outlier" forms of spellcasting were actively rooted out and the mages/spellcasters practicing them were slain or exiled from the realm, leading to a more ordered wizardly existence. Fringe spellcasters involved in binding, shadow magic etc. etc would be a very hidden few, likely enslaved by powerful individual Red Wizards for their unique skillsets but nothing more.
-- George Krashos |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Apr 2014 : 23:30:20
Oh, and just a note, on that guild that manages circle casters. It is known that many powerful but dead red wizards are known to exist on and supporting this guild... but as simulacrums. This is because many upper level red wizards kept the bodies of their competitors and created simulacrums from them (some even sell body parts of wizards they've killed so that others can make simulacrums, or some red wizards have been known to secretly invade other red wizards abodes just to chop off the arm from a corpse of an archmage). Of course, the XP loss prevents this from getting too much out of hand, but the creators rent out the services of their simulacrums in order to make side money. This guild may also negotiate other castings by these simulacrums with the permission of the creator. The guild is very careful to never put these simulacrums in harm's way unless absolutely necessary (red wizards seeking revenge over the loss of simulacrums can get deadly). Many of these masters who have created numerous simulacrums for the use in circles also tend to have very little need for their own apprentices in circles, and thus these apprentices are often free to sell their services with the guild (and many masters require that their students oversee the use of the simulacrums). Also, they tend to make simulacrums of individuals who can cast spells in their opposition schools (it should be noted that they DON'T choose individuals for their crafting feats, since simulacrums cannot earn the necessary xp to craft items).
This guild can have a lot of use in the game at the levels where wizards are becoming dangerous red wizards (say between 10th-14th lvl) . For instance, if some up and coming mage is suddenly buying the services of a bunch of red wizards of moderate skill, then he may be off to go do something interesting. The guild may report this information to the Zulkirs or other individuals who would pay for the information. Similarly, if a wizard uses the guild to say get a simulacrum that can cast a spell for them that they can't normally cast, that information may be sold. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Apr 2014 : 23:05:36
quote:
Originally posted by Ilmarinnen
Just a few suggestions that may be useful for your campaigns:
quote:
sorcerers are looked down upon (my personal belief is that this is due to the propensity for Mulhorandi nobles of aasimar blood being sorcerers).
To my opinions Red Wizards (RW) are jealous to share power of magic with anyone else, thus they'll treat as wizards only those trained in official academies of their schools (and definitely indoctrinated into their ideals). Any other magic users, like illegally taught wizards or naturally born sorcerers, warlocks and wilders are severely persecuted. Moreso RW present themself to population as only defenders from barbarians, tyrants and monsters.
And population is taught to consider "wild" sorcerers amd warlocks as naturals monsters, far more dangerous than gnolls, dread warriors, giants or domesticated wyverns, and to inform local authorities when suspecting ones. In this situation most of sorcerers and warocks will be exterminated or tortured to death in "experiments" yet in youth. Surviving ones will learn to hide well their talent/ curse (remember "Frozen"?). They fight for survival, and are not likely to form societies, since they are very distrustful to inform anyone of their curse.
The only lucky exclusions may by fire genasis or diabolic tieflings which may be "adopted" to serve to the churches of Kossut and Bane respectfully, being considered as manifestations of powers of their lords.
quote:
raumathari battlemages
The main feature of Raumatharian battlemagic is delivering one's spells through the blows of sword.
Even though Thayan wizards have better opportunities than anyone else to uncover long buried secrets of Battlemegic, I doubt it will be popular among RW. It requires one to fight in the first line, while RW definitely tend to act in battle from behind the backs of bodyguards (magically altered thayan gladiators, constructs, undead dread warriors, mentally conditioned thayan knights etc...).
Moreso - as for me, traditional look of RW, like long robes, long nails, staffs is specific for "people of mind", squeamish of physical excersises and endangering themselves. Studying sword fighting is a shame for one.
quote:
There is the Griffin Legion which was comprised of a lot of warriors on griffins. There was also the Griffin Legion that was exclusively red wizards mounted on Griffins.
Griffin legion is not comprised of Red wizards. There are not enough RW in Thay to fill rank and file of legions, even of such elite ones. In "Haunted lands" trilogy by RL Byers, captain one of its squadrons (and commander of the whole legion in 1385) Aoth Fezim (even though a mage and a mulan) does not claim to be or become a Red wizard.
However in service of schools and tharchs there are dozens of legions: infantry, cavalry, air cavalry, bombard batteries (whatever you might add yet?), whose officers definitely form certain political groups. Don't forget the navy of Alaor too.
regarding "other types of casters"... i.e. sorcerors, warlocks, warmages, dread necromancers, beguilers, binders, bards, etc...
I submit that sorcerors are looked down upon in Thay. It is documented as such, and I simply give my assumption as to why (i.e. they don't respect those who gain powers just by being born). I would submit that warlocks would also be looked down upon, as they are "beggars for their powers". The same would go for binders (plus, my beliefs as to the early history of Thay may strengthen this prejudice). However, warmages, dread necromancer, beguilers, and bards all must train to use their skill.... and nearly all of these would make unsuitable wizards as their skill is in charisma not in intelligence. Some members of their families will naturally be more inclined to these styles of castings, and I would assume that they don't just go about killing people who study other types of magic.... especially since they fought for the ability to research magic however they want to. So, in a family who is closely allied with the school of invocation... if they had a child with more charisma, they'd probably encourage him to be a warmage. Similarly, in a family closely tied to the school of necromancy, they may encourage them towards dread necromancy. Enchantment, divination, and illusion may encourage bards and beguilers.
regarding the Raumathari Battlemages-
Again, this would be for a society of mages who are focused on learning battle magic. Personally, I've long held that not all Thayan wizards become RED WIZARDS. Some pursue other paths. To outsiders, these other wizards are still Thayan wizards, but to the red wizards, these individuals are simply subjects. To those who state that red wizards wouldn't allow these casters to exist within their borders, I simply point out that the WHOLE REASON for their revolt was they wanted freedom in their ability to research magic. To say that all red wizards come from the same mold is short sighted. However, these types of red wizards would be the exception, as most with the intellect to be wizards are lacking in the physical skills to be warriors as well.
regarding the griffon legion. I specify there are two groups because of the disparity brought about by the R L Beyers novels. Its easier to incorporate that there's two groups than to specify that all the other canon references are wrong. Specific canon references below:
From Spellbound, pg 16
The best known aerial Thayan unit is the Griffon Legion, commanded personally by the tharchion of Pyarados. Numbering over 350 griffons, each with a Red Wizard mount, the legion itself is a potent fighting body capable of defeating forces many times its own size.
From Unapproachable East, pg 161
The best-known army of Thay is the Griffon Legion, a group of some four hundred Red Wizards commanded by the tharchion of Pyarados — currently Tharchion Nymia Focar—soaring through the skies on the backs of griffons.
So, I submit that there were two groups, both of which reported to the tharchion of Pyarados. Most likely, they had to separate the two groups because the red wizards would all try to take command of the warriors of the more warrior-ish legion. So, to handle that issue, one group was all red wizards... and the other was all non-red wizards. Presumably the red wizard one was filled mostly with low level red wizards, so as not to cause infighting between them and the Tharchion.
One thing to note for any specialist wizards who remain in Thay and don't become red wizards (i.e. eldritch knights, mystic theurges, and arcane tricksters being the most common examples, but also wizards who choose other paths). Most will choose tattoo focus. These individuals may be required to perform in circles as a result. They may even hire their services out for such, and thus earn money on the side, particularly if they plan on spending the day making potions or scrolls, etc... Ever since second edition, I've had a guild whose purpose was to act as a contractor for these services (i.e. they handle the putting the seller of the services together with the buyers, so that wizards aren't having to run around to find such). Many low level red wizards make a modest living simply by selling their services (assuming they don't have a master who commands their services). |
| Ilmarinnen |
Posted - 06 Apr 2014 : 21:48:20
Just a few suggestions that may be useful for your campaigns:
quote:
sorcerers are looked down upon (my personal belief is that this is due to the propensity for Mulhorandi nobles of aasimar blood being sorcerers).
To my opinions Red Wizards (RW) are jealous to share power of magic with anyone else, thus they'll treat as wizards only those trained in official academies of their schools (and definitely indoctrinated into their ideals). Any other magic users, like illegally taught wizards or naturally born sorcerers, warlocks and wilders are severely persecuted. Moreso RW present themself to population as only defenders from barbarians, tyrants and monsters.
And population is taught to consider "wild" sorcerers amd warlocks as naturals monsters, far more dangerous than gnolls, dread warriors, giants or domesticated wyverns, and to inform local authorities when suspecting ones. In this situation most of sorcerers and warocks will be exterminated or tortured to death in "experiments" yet in youth. Surviving ones will learn to hide well their talent/ curse (remember "Frozen"?). They fight for survival, and are not likely to form societies, since they are very distrustful to inform anyone of their curse.
The only lucky exclusions may by fire genasis or diabolic tieflings which may be "adopted" to serve to the churches of Kossut and Bane respectfully, being considered as manifestations of powers of their lords.
quote:
raumathari battlemages
The main feature of Raumatharian battlemagic is delivering one's spells through the blows of sword.
Even though Thayan wizards have better opportunities than anyone else to uncover long buried secrets of Battlemegic, I doubt it will be popular among RW. It requires one to fight in the first line, while RW definitely tend to act in battle from behind the backs of bodyguards (magically altered thayan gladiators, constructs, undead dread warriors, mentally conditioned thayan knights etc...).
Moreso - as for me, traditional look of RW, like long robes, long nails, staffs is specific for "people of mind", squeamish of physical excersises and endangering themselves. Studying sword fighting is a shame for one.
quote:
There is the Griffin Legion which was comprised of a lot of warriors on griffins. There was also the Griffin Legion that was exclusively red wizards mounted on Griffins.
Griffin legion is not comprised of Red wizards. There are not enough RW in Thay to fill rank and file of legions, even of such elite ones. In "Haunted lands" trilogy by RL Byers, captain one of its squadrons (and commander of the whole legion in 1385) Aoth Fezim (even though a mage and a mulan) does not claim to be or become a Red wizard.
However in service of schools and tharchs there are dozens of legions: infantry, cavalry, air cavalry, bombard batteries (whatever you might add yet?), whose officers definitely form certain political groups. Don't forget the navy of Alaor too. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Apr 2014 : 01:15:30
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I can go with Zhengyi being Narfelli in origin, it explains his worhsip of Orcus and after the Zulkirate is established and the Narfelli faction loses a lot of power then that would explain his going renegade.
But what reason would we have for Ythazz Buvarr going renegade. He helps create the Zulkirship and then suddenly goes renegade against it makes no sense at all (especially if he was a Zulkir himself). You can only leave the post of Zulkir by being utterly destroyed (or running far far away). If he is a demi lich he would be nigh impossible to destroy (especially if he is over 2000 years old, he would have learned a trick or two) so he would have to voluntarily relinquish the position of Zulkir and flee the country which also doesnt make sense given his level of power if he were a demi lich.
Also demi liches do not make great figure heads since they typically lack a corporeal body. A talking skull with gems in his eyes probably would have been noted in the history excerpt.
If Ythazz was a demi lich why would he even bother with Thayd. Demi liches are among some of the most powerful creatures on the planet and to my mind moreso than vestiges.
And finally the means of becoming a demi lich are not necessarily down to time alone. Shoon VII went from lich to demi lich in less than 1000 years and the means of his transformation are unknown and could have in fact been an accident. The epic handbook describes the creation of soul gems which implies a deliberate act to transform into a demi lich.
So it is entirely possible (and just as implausible) that Ythazz Buvarr was alive in 922 DR, became a lich sometime after and by 1360 DR was a demi lich.
Also if we give Zhengyi, Ythazz, and Velsharoon different origins and allegiances we then have to come up with plausible explanations for them going renegade against the very establishment they helped create, when one of them was most likely in a ruling position on that establishment.
Ythazz could have been a lich in 922 and like Szass no one may have noticed, and that may have been one of the reasons for him leaving wherever he is from (I dont recall any Halruan liches so maybe they dont like lichdom there). But if we make them devout worshippers of Mystra then we have a fairly simple explanation as to why they went "renegade" and had to leave Thay.
On Ythazz, he was a lich at the time of the Thayan revolt (I state this because in Crimson Gold it has references to him bowing, wearing a cloak, standing his ground and the earth shakes beneath their feet, etc...). Ythazz helped establish the Zulkirate (i.e. 8 schools of magic with their own Zulkir governing the country), but only after Thayd was gone. What Thayd established PRIOR TO THE ZULKIRATE was a country with HIM at the top and a bunch of loyal followers who he gave a title of "Zulkir". So, basically, Thayd set himself up as a tyrant and was ruling somewhat like a king and "promoting" those who would do HIS bidding. It was only after Escalthar called the council of the black star (after Thayd had mysteriously "disappeared")that the actual Zulkirate based on schools of magic was formed. So, essentially, Ythazz wasn't a renegade... he was one of the founders of the final form of governance.
So, why would Ythazz turn renegade against Thayd? Maybe Thayd was giving more respect and power to the anima mages (binder/wizards) who were channeling him. Maybe Ythazz didn't like this and wanted wizards at the top of the food chain. Maybe Ythazz was just pissed at Thayd because he felt like Thayd was getting all the credit and power, and Ythazz had done most of the heavy lifting.
(NOTE: it also occurs to me that Escalthar may have had some doings with Thayd "disappearing", since he did call the council of the black star.... and he was thought to be a servant of Azuth.... I can definitely see Azuth favoring a society ruled by living wizards exclusively over one ruled by both wizards and binders <and possibly others> acting as the forceful arm of a Vestige).
Presumably, at the time that Thayd "went away" Ythazz was still a lich. I'm thinking that he became a demi-lich only after becoming Zulkir. He probably secreted himself away for a good long while in order to discover the process to become a demi-lich. During that time, he may have put a little too much trust in his fellow diviners. Hell, he might have been "caught" right after completing the ritual, and whoever did it brought out Ythazz's headless body as proof of his death (possibly with a shattered skull from some other undead). The history I have written up for him goes
"Having won out against the God-Kings, Ythazz turned once again to his researches. Eventually, he discovered the secret to attaining a higher level of lichdom, transforming himself into a demilich. However, in his time spent researching, Ythazz had committed a grievous error. He had quit watching his underlings.
Ythazz still doesn’t know who sent the golem to entrap his skull within the globe of arandur with its magic-sucking interior. Nor did he know where they transported to afterwards until recently, when the welds on the exterior of the arandur globe began to finally crack. Unfortunately, he finds himself in an area of dead magic, surrounded by numerous constructs, and enclosed within an arandur globe that is attached to a metallic clamp to the floor. Except for a few spells which he has magically “scribed” within the gems replacing his teeth, he is also without his spells. His original phylactery has been destroyed, leaving him with only the soul gems comprising his demi-lich body. However, he is not without hope. The foulness of his presence draws undead to his general area. Most are destroyed for drawing too near. However, some are intelligent enough that they have gleaned some idea of what awaits ahead. Working as his servants, they seek someone who can help them free “the dark one” from his prison, and Ythazz waits for the day that they succeed."
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 08:43:38
I can go with Zhengyi being Narfelli in origin, it explains his worhsip of Orcus and after the Zulkirate is established and the Narfelli faction loses a lot of power then that would explain his going renegade.
But what reason would we have for Ythazz Buvarr going renegade. He helps create the Zulkirship and then suddenly goes renegade against it makes no sense at all (especially if he was a Zulkir himself). You can only leave the post of Zulkir by being utterly destroyed (or running far far away). If he is a demi lich he would be nigh impossible to destroy (especially if he is over 2000 years old, he would have learned a trick or two) so he would have to voluntarily relinquish the position of Zulkir and flee the country which also doesnt make sense given his level of power if he were a demi lich.
Also demi liches do not make great figure heads since they typically lack a corporeal body. A talking skull with gems in his eyes probably would have been noted in the history excerpt.
If Ythazz was a demi lich why would he even bother with Thayd. Demi liches are among some of the most powerful creatures on the planet and to my mind moreso than vestiges.
And finally the means of becoming a demi lich are not necessarily down to time alone. Shoon VII went from lich to demi lich in less than 1000 years and the means of his transformation are unknown and could have in fact been an accident. The epic handbook describes the creation of soul gems which implies a deliberate act to transform into a demi lich.
So it is entirely possible (and just as implausible) that Ythazz Buvarr was alive in 922 DR, became a lich sometime after and by 1360 DR was a demi lich.
Also if we give Zhengyi, Ythazz, and Velsharoon different origins and allegiances we then have to come up with plausible explanations for them going renegade against the very establishment they helped create, when one of them was most likely in a ruling position on that establishment.
Ythazz could have been a lich in 922 and like Szass no one may have noticed, and that may have been one of the reasons for him leaving wherever he is from (I dont recall any Halruan liches so maybe they dont like lichdom there). But if we make them devout worshippers of Mystra then we have a fairly simple explanation as to why they went "renegade" and had to leave Thay. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 03:56:48
Oh, and I'll probably be eviscerated for this next statement, but I'd probably also make Zhengyi a unspecialized wizard/warlock/eldritch theurge (and throw in some suitably necromantic prestige classes) with a pact with Orcus. It might help explain why he was known as the "Witch-King". Sure, it defies all established lore we've seen of him, but the idea of warlocks as they exist now didn't exist in 1e/2e when they developed him. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 03:42:38
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well apart from making everyone a binder or anima mage there is some good stuff here.
So we have Zulkirs in Thayd's time. Then they gradually die off from battle losses and the survivors form the modern zulkirate in 1030 DR.
Tying this into the history from GHoTR. Thayd and his followers (the leaders of whom are called Zulkirs) rebel from Mulhorand in -1087 DR. There are 7 zulkirs so it is possible there were 7 factions then.
They lose 2-3 zulkirs during the battles with Mulhorand and Thayd himself dies but is transformed into some kind of powerful possessing spirit undead creature. He possesses one of his lieutenants (a.k.a a Zulkir) but burns through him and has to possess another and another until all the Zulkirs are gone. Either Mulhorandi priests or the last remaining Zulkir manage to imprison him somewhere (The citadel seems a good place, Delhumide might be better though).
Fastforward 2000 years and the zulkirs of the past are but a long distant memory. Ythazz Buvaar and his followers from Halruaa arrive to kickstart a rebellion and create a country of their own. One interfering old wizard for his own inscrutable aims approaches one or two of their number and leaves with them Thayd's diary. They decide to reform a Zulkirate and rename the country Thay (and a few of them take to binding his vestige). This official formation occurs in 1030 DR and we get the zulkirs Ed listed plus Ythazz Buvarr.
Now comes the messy part. What happens during this revolt. We know it is successful, we know the Red Wizards before 1030 DR are not the same as the Red Wizards after 1030 DR (they were just wizards from Thay before so the Red Wizards must have been an order of wizards in Thay). We also now know that Ythazz Buvarr and his followers get ejected from office somehow (Velsharoon and Zhengyi are both renegade red wizards and Ythazz Buvarr was a Zulkir but he is still alive and no longer a Zulkir and as Szass Tam shows you are a Zulkir for life and death until irrevocably destroyed ergo he abdicated or was exiled). And that there was some opposition to the rule of the Zulkirs. The opposition is unlikely to come from the cabals of wizards since they are represented on the Zulkirate so it must come from elsewhere.
So the reason i put in Thay went anti religion was because the churches of the dark deities (and Kossuth) undoubtedly had a hand in the rebellion against the Zulkirate (Kossuth and Bane have an enormous amount of power in Thay and are well respected by the Red Wizards, everyone else is just tolerated so it stands to reason Kossuth and Bane were involved in the original 922 DR rebellion against Mulhorand), they must be annoyed that they have no representatives on the Zulkirate.
However there is another reason for it. If Ythazz Buvaar and Velsharoon and Zhengyi are all from Halruaa then they would be devout Mystra worshippers. Even better if Ythazz Buvarr was the Zulkir of Divination then we have a reason for him leaving Halrua because it wasnt until the 1300's that divination was a respected school in Halruaa. If the aboves are true it cannot be a coincidence that all the ranking Halruan's in Thay (and there are no Halruan people in Thay now) were ejected from Thay, probably forcibly.
The Halruans would not have been renegades against the Zulkirate since they helped form it and Ythazz was a Zulkir, so the Zulkirate must have turned anti Halruan at some point. The only reason i can think for this is that some of the churches got annoyed at being shut out of the upper levels of power in Thay (despite their contribution to the rebellion) they sided with some of the other cabals that lost out (the narfelli demonbinders perhaps). The Zulkirate put down the rebellion by 1076 DR with much help from the cabal of Red Wizards headed by Salassar (Aganazzar perhaps). Then realising religion can be dangerous they turned on the devout worshippers within their midst, that would only really include the Halruans who are always going to love Mystra and so they have to go renegade as well.
Over time the anti religious bent dies down especially with all the help they receive from Bane and Kossuth, but the anti Mystra thing persists.
Actually, the only named binder that I've thrown out there is Velsharoon. All others would be NPC's free for development, though I would put a decent number around during the founding of Thay.
I wouldn't put Ythazz or Zhengyi as originating in Halruaa. Since Ythazz becomes a demi-lich, and because becoming a demi-lich implies that he's been a lich for a LONG time, I'd put Ythazz as one of the few actual remaining Theurgist Adepts who served under Thayd (though at that time, probably Ythazz was little more than a fledling lieutenant or somesuch). Therefore, I'd use Ythazz as a key to helping binders discover the secrets of Thayd, only to have him "turn on" his former master whenever he feels that Thayd isn't giving him his proper respect. The other red wizards don't know that he's secreted beneath Bezantur, so my thoughts are someone faked his "death" and entrapped him (possibly the diviner who replaced him?).
For Zhengyi, personally, I'd have him be Narfellian in origin, possibly even of the royal blood of Narfell (a cousin or somesuch possibly), which may even give him some bloodline ties to Orcus. It would help explain why he moved to conquer Vaasa and Damara (and possibly he was planning to expand into the Rawlinswood and capture Dun-Tharos from the Barony of Soravia... he was after all massing lots of goblinoids there). It would also help explain his interest in necromancy and his ties to Orcus.
My personal take on how the Halruaans/Velsharoon got involved is that Ythazz as a lich got involved with them and led them to Thay. Ythazz having been born a Mulan and a Theurgist Adept saw the 2000th anniversary of Thayd's death coming up in 919 DR and he decided to use that to raise awareness amongst his people again that they need not serve the Mulhorandi gods. Now, how many Halruaans were there? I'm thinking a small group of say a dozen or so, but every one of them being an archmage. They probably weren't unified either (i.e. my view here is of Velsharoon being interested in necromancy and pact magics, another Halruaan being a summoner who may have fallen in with the Narfellians, another Halruaan interested in blood magic may have fallen in with the necromancers from Pholzubbalt, another Halruaan who had followed the red wizards into exile because she was a secret Leiran mage-priest spying for Nimbral, another Halruaan who was "rain man -like" and was studying temporal magics, etc....). Therefore, from this standpoint, its easy to see how the Halruaans maybe had strong involvement in the beginning, but they quickly fractured as a group.
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 22:46:40
Tyranthraxus has unique abilities of possession and transference, and is incorporeal (unless, perhaps, liquid from the Pool of Radiance functions as a sort of corporeal receptacle/anchor for his presence in the Realms) - but he is not undead. He has none of the vulnerabilities of the undead, he apparently does not drain his hosts (that is, they remain as they were when Tyranthraxus transfers to another host). I would say that his telepathy and ESP powers suggest his possession has a psychic/psionic component, and his origins on “the lower planes (which one is not known)“ suggest some sort of domination of his host‘s spirit or aura.
Back to topic - being a Red Wizard does not exclude one from also belonging to another (or, several other) organizations. Reds are a divisive, scheming, ambitious, power-addicted, immoral lot ... particular Reds (even some Zulkirs!) might be leaders or patsies in any number of dark conspiracies. And because of their competitive, secretive, evil nature, some of these organizations (and some of their Red Wizard members) likely manipulate and oppose each other in countless ways even the Reds aren‘t aware of. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 11:13:31
Well its possible Thayd and Tyranthraxus could be one and the same (although my personal thought is it's unlikely).
We have reason to believe Thayd was human or at least appeared human (since history does not record him as being of a particular race and human is the dominant race on Faerun so if no mention then must be human). Whereas Tyranthraxus i believe has some hints at him being outer planar in origin.
Although there is nothing to say Thayd wasnt a another being in disguise who upon his death took the form of this possessing spirit.
Maybe we are stumbling upon an entire race of disembodied possessing spirits that are hitherto unknown but have secretly manipulated events on Faerun for millennia.
Or maybe Thayd really was a human who was killed in a spectacular spell battle with the god kings of Mulhorand and the resulting magic instability ripped his soul from his body and merged it with a nearby fire elemental creating this disembodied spirit of fire. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 09:18:12
Eh, funny it took me so long to realize Ed's description of Thayd ("undead sentience possessing people and burning them out") sounds awfully similar to what we know of Tyranthraxus (named "the Possessing Spirit" and "the Flamed One").
I'll have to check some dates but it may be Tyranthraxus and Thayd are just one and the same and a minion of Jergal that set off the whole Dark Three story, considering Mulhorand and Thay are right next door to Murghom that supposedly is the birth place of Myrkul.
Sorry for the off-topic. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 09:09:20
Well apart from making everyone a binder or anima mage there is some good stuff here.
So we have Zulkirs in Thayd's time. Then they gradually die off from battle losses and the survivors form the modern zulkirate in 1030 DR.
Tying this into the history from GHoTR. Thayd and his followers (the leaders of whom are called Zulkirs) rebel from Mulhorand in -1087 DR. There are 7 zulkirs so it is possible there were 7 factions then.
They lose 2-3 zulkirs during the battles with Mulhorand and Thayd himself dies but is transformed into some kind of powerful possessing spirit undead creature. He possesses one of his lieutenants (a.k.a a Zulkir) but burns through him and has to possess another and another until all the Zulkirs are gone. Either Mulhorandi priests or the last remaining Zulkir manage to imprison him somewhere (The citadel seems a good place, Delhumide might be better though).
Fastforward 2000 years and the zulkirs of the past are but a long distant memory. Ythazz Buvaar and his followers from Halruaa arrive to kickstart a rebellion and create a country of their own. One interfering old wizard for his own inscrutable aims approaches one or two of their number and leaves with them Thayd's diary. They decide to reform a Zulkirate and rename the country Thay (and a few of them take to binding his vestige). This official formation occurs in 1030 DR and we get the zulkirs Ed listed plus Ythazz Buvarr.
Now comes the messy part. What happens during this revolt. We know it is successful, we know the Red Wizards before 1030 DR are not the same as the Red Wizards after 1030 DR (they were just wizards from Thay before so the Red Wizards must have been an order of wizards in Thay). We also now know that Ythazz Buvarr and his followers get ejected from office somehow (Velsharoon and Zhengyi are both renegade red wizards and Ythazz Buvarr was a Zulkir but he is still alive and no longer a Zulkir and as Szass Tam shows you are a Zulkir for life and death until irrevocably destroyed ergo he abdicated or was exiled). And that there was some opposition to the rule of the Zulkirs. The opposition is unlikely to come from the cabals of wizards since they are represented on the Zulkirate so it must come from elsewhere.
So the reason i put in Thay went anti religion was because the churches of the dark deities (and Kossuth) undoubtedly had a hand in the rebellion against the Zulkirate (Kossuth and Bane have an enormous amount of power in Thay and are well respected by the Red Wizards, everyone else is just tolerated so it stands to reason Kossuth and Bane were involved in the original 922 DR rebellion against Mulhorand), they must be annoyed that they have no representatives on the Zulkirate.
However there is another reason for it. If Ythazz Buvaar and Velsharoon and Zhengyi are all from Halruaa then they would be devout Mystra worshippers. Even better if Ythazz Buvarr was the Zulkir of Divination then we have a reason for him leaving Halrua because it wasnt until the 1300's that divination was a respected school in Halruaa. If the aboves are true it cannot be a coincidence that all the ranking Halruan's in Thay (and there are no Halruan people in Thay now) were ejected from Thay, probably forcibly.
The Halruans would not have been renegades against the Zulkirate since they helped form it and Ythazz was a Zulkir, so the Zulkirate must have turned anti Halruan at some point. The only reason i can think for this is that some of the churches got annoyed at being shut out of the upper levels of power in Thay (despite their contribution to the rebellion) they sided with some of the other cabals that lost out (the narfelli demonbinders perhaps). The Zulkirate put down the rebellion by 1076 DR with much help from the cabal of Red Wizards headed by Salassar (Aganazzar perhaps). Then realising religion can be dangerous they turned on the devout worshippers within their midst, that would only really include the Halruans who are always going to love Mystra and so they have to go renegade as well.
Over time the anti religious bent dies down especially with all the help they receive from Bane and Kossuth, but the anti Mystra thing persists.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 02:09:18
The Zulkirate didn't turn anti-religious. The point of the Thayan revolt was freedom to research as they wanted without religion telling them what they could and couldn't do. That's why Kossuth's worship was so popular... because he didn't care. Bane and Myrkul probably got a decent foothold only because their churches were willing to serve alongside the red wizards as the ends served their deities wants just in the establishment of a country doing possibly horrific magical studies (and they were already kind of interloper deities in the area). Thus, the amount of religious aid/influence that was had was minimal. Also, given a choice between Mystra and Azuth, it would seem more believable that Azuthans would have had more influence in the founding of Thay (he's more pragmatic, whereas Mystra worshippers tend to focus more on the "wonder" of magic). Given that "Escalthar the Black Star" is believed to have had some kind of linkage to Azuth by both Elminster and Khelben, this probably makes this more likely as well.
It should also be noted that there were Zulkirs BEFORE there was a Zulkirate. Jorgmacdon was one of these original Zulkirs (I state that because he was "the original Zulkir of Conjuration.... yet the first Zulkir of Conjuration after the forming of the Zulkirate was Tlantros Tulhoond), and these Zulkirs served Thayd. They then ran around trying to control the rest of the red wizards who had survived the revolt. Some of the original Zulkirs may not have even been wizards or even had magical powers, but I feel it best to assume that most were wizards. It was noted from Ed that Thayd was "an undead sentience that possessed people and burned them out". My take on that was that he was a vestige whose binding physically drained the binder somehow as part of the pactmaking, such that most binders couldn't continually bind him every day.... but he enhanced them so much they were willing to take the drain. In this way, those who were still following "Theurgist Adept" practices (aka binders and anima mages and soul weavers) were able to have "Thayd" be all over the country at any given time, essentially riding different binders (in my version, Velsharoon was one such wizard with binding capability) and work with his various local "Zulkirs" that he was using as governors to a degree. What would have essentially broken this down is that wizards decided that they'd rather not have binders sitting at the top of the food chain (even though likely most of Thayd's Zulkirs were wizards), and they started killing off the binders (and thus limited Thayd's ability to interact with the world). In my version, this is why Velsharoon had to flee Thay, and for the common folk this caused the "death" of Thayd.
So, we have two conflicting stories (Ythazz Buvaar leading and Thayd leading) which can be worked through as the founders of the schools of magic governing turning around and rewriting history. However, it should be assumed that both Thayd and Ythazz Buvaar both had heavy involvement in the founding of the country. It also should be noted that Ythazz Buvaar is not listed in Ed's first Zulkirs of the Zulkirate.... but he also never listed a Zulkir of divination (he only lists 7 of the 8). Therefore, it must be assumed that Ythazz took on the mantle of Zulkir of Divination. Perhaps it was through his divinatory work that the binders who were binding Thayd were wiped out.... and knowledge of the pact ritual to bind Thayd was destroyed wherever it was found.
Anyway, the below posted because it definitely delves into the founding, and its from Ed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by The Hooded One
TIYARRA ZULKIRATE (= Of the History/Lore of the Zulkirs)
{Ed Greenwood, 1991}
The zulkirs began as Thayd’s inner circle of trusted “loyals” (in their hearts, most of them were anything but, but only one—Ilkrim Hlannadar, better known to Thayan folklore as “the Dragondevoured,” thanks to Thayd’s swift and ruthless reaction to his treachery—ever dared defy him openly). These “loyals” served the founder of Thay as his personal lieutenants, who led Thayan warbands, acted as his messengers, enforcers, and assassins, and helped keep Thayd the dominant wizard in the northern lands wrested from Mulhorand and Unther, and home to many independent mages of power, until the realm of Thay was consolidated.
Originally there were seven zulkirs, then six and five through battle losses. It was only after the death of Thayd that their numbers became set, and linked to specific “schools” of wizardry.
When Thayd fell, a bitter struggle for power followed, in which scores of ambitious wizards perished. Eventually the survivors, brought to reluctant obedience by threat of being trapped in the “Escalthar’s Everlasting Curse” spell that would shapechange them every few breaths, uncontrollably, for the rest of their lives, met with the wizard Escalthar (who had devised that spell, and cast it upon most of those survivors) atop Laltharr, a bare crag (later blasted to rubble in a spell-duel) in southwestern Thay.
This moot later became known as the Council of the Black Star (after the black star mage-sigil used by Escalthar). At the Council it was agreed that there would eight zulkirs, each of them a master of a school of wizardry: Abjuration, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, and Transmutation. (Over the years, the zulkirs of Thay have been almost exclusively Thayan, and male humans, but no zulkirate has any formal requirements of residency, race, or gender.)
Outsiders have been told different wild tales about this or that zulkir, or how the ruling structure of Thay came about, but this is—so far as Mystra has confirmed—the truth.
Elminster and Khelben believe they have uncovered evidence that Escalthar—who mysteriously vanished, shortly after the Council, and has never been seen since (though there are many rumors and fear-whispered tales, down the years since, of his being seen by dying Red Wizards or watching crucial events in the unfolding governance of Thay) was either the god Azuth in disguise, or a pawn of Azuth at the time of the Council, but neither Azuth nor Mystra will confirm this. According to the Old Mage, the two deities, whenever asked about such matters, “merely smile.”
Only Szass Tam has held office (formally, “zulkirate,” though this term has been rarely used in the last two centuries) among the zulkirs in any consistent manner since 1300.
The “First Zulkirate” or initial eight zulkirs, appointed at the Council in the autumn of 1030 DR, were:
Hahlomede Teeos (Abjuration): known as “Blackwyrm” for his everpresent tattered black robes and cloaks, that rendered him immune to dragon attacks and made dragons actively avoid him, Teeos loved to act mysterious and to track down lost treasures, old magics, and deceptions, this last sort of hunting quickly making him very unpopular with many Thayans; he became the feared, tireless, and increasingly hated “investigator” of the First Zulkirate
Tlantros Tulhoond (Conjuration): an aloof, private man who feared attack at all times, and was therefore always ready for battle, with schemes and “hanging” spells galore ready as both defenses and deterrents, in addition to the monsters he could magically whisk from elsewhere to his side; a sophisticated lover of music, wines, subtle behaviour, and “refinement” who opposed Thay’s ever-greater reliance on slavery and the plundering of its resources at the expense of rejuvenating the land (he hated mines and quarries, preferring that Thay take what it needed from other lands by conquest or magical seizure and transportation)
Zarhandro Laeluth (Enchantment): a fat, jovial man who deceived his fellow zulkirs—and everyone else he had any contact with, in life—as much as possible; made frequent use of doubles to make it appear that he was in one place while he was busy in another; often bubbled with gleeful laughter as he tricked or slew or took cruel revenges; trusted by very few, and feared by many, especially tharchions (whom he was known to have personally slain scores of, over the unfolding years, many by torture); a hedonist who loved exotic foods and long, gluttonous feasts
Dlueae Sharshyndree (Evocation): the first female zulkir, Dlueae [pronounced “Dul-LOO-ay”] was a curvaceous woman with a melodious voice and alluring walk—who also had a coarse-featured and mannish face; she “had to shave like a man” and had acquired several disfiguring facial scars in her youthful adventuring career, and as a result customarily hid her face behind full head masks, which she sometimes augmented with a warrior’s battle-helm; a bold and calm battle-leader and a good tactician, she served Thay well in warfare and built ever-increasing influence over her fellow zulkirs, both by taking them as lovers and befriending them with aid and assistance for their personal projects, and by often stating and refining successful policies for Thay that she got her fellow zulkirs to support (and that they therefore took pride in); a mediator and peacemaker among her fellow zulkirs
Yaerind Mahl (Illusion): an inscrutable man of few words and fewer direct answers, stances, or clear statements, who customarily cloaked his true appearance with magical disguises, and preferred to spend much time roaming Thay appearing as various creatures, to spy and learn (and sometimes strike down treachery—which he widely defined as “anything he disliked”—where and when he found it); was the first zulkir to force many apprentices and dupes to pretend to be him, so they perished in attacks meant to slay him, so he could strike down those who’d thought they’d killed the Zulkir of Illusion; possessed a pair of golden lions (figurines of wondrous power) that hunted and slew at his command
Tarabbas Mroound (Necromancy): a tall, sardonic, cadaver-thin man who “disappeared into bones” at will, and apparently did so permanently, soon after being named zulkir, apparently of his own volition and not due to any attack launched by a rival or would-be successor; many Thayan night-rumors insist he lives on, still, watching over Thay and covertly bringing misfortune to those he dislikes, whilst aiding those he favors
Kulvur Naraelond (Transmutation): a sly, witty, smart-mouthed trickster of a man, handsome and acrobatic, who was trusted by few; most men loathed him, and most women found him irresistible; a hedonist who seemingly cared more for enjoyment of food, drink, lovemaking, and diversions—even elaborate pranks—more than anything else in life; made many foes very quickly, and did not last long in office (or life)
The only complete roster of the zulkirate known to outlanders (non-Thayans) after the First Zulkirate but before the 1350s DR, comes from an anonymous slave’s account, TWELVE WINTERS UNDER THE LASH, that was smuggled out of Thay in late 1300 DR. It gives a partial roster of the zulkirate, as follows:
Eldryn Lammaraster (Abjuration): an old, bitter, grim pessimist who saw treachery and would-be successors around ever corner, in every shadow, and behind every door—and prepared himself accordingly, between manyfold layers of defensive magics; his specialty was spells—many of which died with him—that had nasty counter-attacks built into them, triggered by their defensive activation and not by the caster having to trigger them
Balineth Skroun (Conjuration): a toad-faced, forbidding man who used intimidation and prepared “stage tricks” of magic to cow many a rival or defiant underling, Skroun hid well his deep love of Thay and his real loyalty to his fellow zulkirs; over time, became as trusted by his fellow zulkirs as any holder of a zulkirate has ever been, and with good reason; a true “team player” who looked ahead and acted for the betterment of Thay, beneath a surly public mask
Iyrith Telgahlagar (Enchantment): described as a darkly handsome, bearded man who was urbane, soft-spoken, and a master strategist and diplomat, the most dominant of the zulkirs through his skilled forging of alliances with his fellow zulkirs and among the tharchions and tharchionesses; ruthless in slaying rivals who act against him, often through spells delivered by bats that fly under his direction; once described by a Red Wizard as “Asmodeus among us,” and probably the closest of any individual to being the true ruler of Thay, at the time
Uldreth Korroth (Evocation): a grossly fat, lewd, aggressive man known for having layer upon layer of backup spells and schemes, and for being a jovial friend to all zulkirs, and a cruel, ruthless trickster to tharchions, tharchionesses, and all Thayans of lower station whom he had contact with; enjoyed frequent personal slayings of the “spectacular butchery” sort
Mahlind Yarrr (Transmutation): a short, dark-haired, slender man of very few words, who always dressed in crimson robes and was very efficient and a master of foreseeing or anticipating events, treacheries against him, and likely outcomes, and preparing for them; almost always on the “winning side” in policy disputes among the zulkirs, who made few fierce foes and enriched himself greatly with trade outside Thay involving manipulated agents and dupes, in sales of drugs and gems, and prostitution
So saith Ed. His mention of the 1350s DR of course refers to all the published Realmslore (FR6/DREAMS OF THE RED WIZARDS, RED MAGIC, and everything since) that has made the identities, activities, aims, and roster changes of the zulkirs of that era clear to all interested scribes.
So here you are . . . enjoy!
love to all,
THO
Hi again, all.
Thauramarth, Thayd survived as an undead sentience (perhaps unique; Ed hasn't said) that could possess living bodies (mammals of all sorts), but "burned them out" rapidly (a matter of two tendays at most). He clung to the company of his lieutenants . . . but eventually vanished, either destroyed by one of them or "lost" when a body burned out "under him" when he couldn't reach another to attack it...or for some other reason or cause, that PERHAPS has him lurking to this day, awaiting a chance to rise again...
So saith Ed, paraphrased by me.
love,
THO
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 23:18:15
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Here's some pre-history that I had kind of come up with at one point
<SNIP>
1368 DR Velsharoon becomes a deity utilizing the "Phylactery of Mellifleur" and the "Skull Staff of the Necromancer" and a special ritual which sends Mellifleur's essence to the place where Vestiges go. Velsharoon then enacts a lich creation ritual that pulls the divine energy from the Phylactery of Mellifleur into his person.
I'm not sure this last entry works given that the original reference to Velsharoon in Polyhedron #55 talked about him learning the ritual to become a god from Talos, who used him up until he managed to break free of that deity's hold on his divine power.
-- George Krashos
It works still. He just learned a ritual that required him to acquire the phylactery of Mellifleur and the Skull Staff of the Necromancer. Talos was still involved. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 09:26:43
So Ythazz Buvarr and his faction (the Devoted of Mystra), the Narfelli Binders, the Raumathari Battlemages, and the various churches of faiths in and around the Wizard's Reach all band together to battle Mulhorand and create this nation of Thay in 922 DR.
They succeed largely thanks to the efforts of the Narfelli Binders which become the ascendant faction in Thay and they begin on a crusade of conquest and expansion (war against Rashemen in 936 DR).
In 957 Thay and the Narfelli Binders interfere with the covenant by transporting a horde of orcs to various places across Faerun.
The Covenant begin to subtly work against Thay from the inside. Aganazzar posing as the red wizard Salassar, unearths a number of ancient untheric caches and helps the red wizards develop much of their fire magic spells. Attracting many follows he creates a new cabal The Order of the Black Flame which becomes natural allies with the Raumathari Battlemages whose ancient traditions complement much of this new order.
Invigourated the isolationist groups (Order of the Black Flame and the Raumathari Battlemages) begin to combat the Narfelli Demonbinders and a wizard civil war threatens to erupt as magic user battles magic user in Thay.
In the end a number of the secret cabals (including the Devoted of Mystra and Thayd's Order) band together to force the two warring parties to cease hostilities. A new government is formed; the Zulkirate, where the nation will be ruled by magic users, one for each school of magic, elected by the ruling Red Wizards (backed by the secret cabals).
The Zulkirate is formed but is not initially popular, many of the first Zulkirs perish from assassination attempts and assaults by those who do not support the new regime; most notably the various faiths in Thay who feel they have been ignored. Salassar the Zulkir of Evocation is assassinated by one such renegade wizard (although he actually survives; fakes his death, and returns to Neverwinter as Aganazzar)
The Zulkirate turns anti religion, especially against the priests of Mystra who are most vocal and combative in their desire to have a say in the Zulkirate. Ythazz Buvaar; the first Zulkir, a devoted of Mystra, and one of those who envisioned the Zulkirate and Thay is forced to flee office and hides in the catacombs of Bezantur. His other supporters and members of the Devoted of Mystra (such as Zhengyi and Velsharoon) are forced to flee Thay or go underground.
Shortly after all insurrection has been quashed, it is discovered who the real identity of Salassar is and he is tracked to Neverwinter and brutally murdered for his meddling in Thayan affairs. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 09:08:00
Zhengyi ended up serving Orcus, and given Velsharoon's current antipathy for Mystra it's unlikely that he was a Mystaran. |
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