| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 20:00:47
One thing that always puzzled me was that it was never explained or quantified exactly what a primordial is.
Plenty of things have been stated as being primordial (some I think are labelled as such incorrectly), but again it leaves us no closer as to what a primordial is.
Now we know what gods are, divine entities created from the thought of it's worshippers manifested on the outer planes. From what I understand the astral plane acts as a conduit between the material plane and the outer plane.
So what is a primordial, a common theme seems to be that they dwell on the material plane, they have a single physical body. They have varying levels of power, they can grant spells. Which is a lot to encompass in one category
Now excuse me while I ramble a bit here but i'm trying to sort a muddle in my own head as well as the lore.
So how about in the beginning was the elemental planes that mixed together in the beginnings of the material plane - forming a massive soup of the elements.
In order to eke out territories, what if the elemental lords/princes/kings/whatever you want to call them, created the planets themselves by accident in order to create a stable environment for their subjects to dwell on. Earth elementals required a land mass so the planet was formed. Fire elementals required fire so the planet was filled with lava. Water elementals required water so the planet was covered with water. Air elementals required air so the planet was given an atmosphere. And viola you have the planet and the material plane.
No longer a soup of chaos but a plane with rules and structure, and most importantly life. Now I have no idea how souls fit in but elementals have thoughts and personalities. What if the mixing of these elements into a planet gave the planet itself a being, a life filled with the energy of the inner planes.
A being of immense power that was essentially alone in the universe. So this planet spawn's children. This is how the primordials come into being, essentially paragon ancestors of the creatures we see in Toril now. Relkath the bear for instance could be the first example of a bear, a pure supreme specimen of a bear, massive in size and strength and ferocity.
Many of these creatures would be formed, either with intent or by accident from events happening on Toril's surface - the first volcano gives birth to that magma primordial for instance.
Now how do Shar and Selune fit into this. I am pretty sure I read somewhere that they were formed immediately after the primordials from a silvery astral pool. This suggests to me that they are gods, or maybe they are something in between.
Maybe Shar and Selune were primordials. The darkness given sentience is Shar and an asteroid crashing into Toril's surface cause a budding off to form the moon (like our own moon) and this forms Selune. Maybe the primordials worship these two primordials themselves and then Shar and Selune become the first gods. Primordials worshipped to such an extent that they become deities in the end.
If Shar and Selune were primordials they would certainly be the most powerful. THe moon is massive and so must contain more of Toril's power than the other primordials, and Shar is the void itself given mass and sentience so is even bigger.
If they were primordials then that explains how this war of light and darkness had physical effects. The primordials plead their more powerful sisters to make Toril more habitable so they themselves can spawn children.
Shar being jealous and cruel wont help but Selune creates the sun which Shar smothers (and possibly extinguishes) with the aid of an allied primordial Dendar the night serpent maybe.
A big war ensues with Shar and her allies on one side and Selune and her allies on the other. A war Selune comes close to losing until she hurls massive chunks of herself at Shar - que a titanic explosion and the formation of Mystra.
In the process Selune and Shar and Mystra are elevated to godhood through the worship/adulation of their allies at such awesome displays of power.
Selune forms the sun (again because I think there were two suns in Toril's history) and the primordials get busy creating the lesser creatures that populate the planet today.
And there we go, my idea for where the primordials come from and what they are - The children of Toril.
If it isn't from the prime material plane (or possibly inner elemental planes, or faerie) then it isn't a primordial. Faerie I think is different, that is almost like a planet that became an entire plane so the rulers of faerie are more like primordials than deities.
I think that the rulers of hell and the abyss got labelled as primordials but I prefer the idea that they are cosmic entities that span the multiverse. They aren't gods because they don't need worshippers, but they are born of ideas and ideals (like gods) and are probably invested their power by the outer planes themselves.
I'm sure there will be plenty of people to point out holes in this theory in moments
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Quale |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 17:34:57
Personally, my version of primordials is a bit different than what's 4e canon. In Planescape terms both gods and primordials (and archfey, archfiends ...) are powers. It depends on where they live. Most ancient powers started as primordials, and later added god-like templates after belief developed. E.g. Greek Nyx, Chaos, Aether, Norse Ymir etc. were/are primordials. Multiverse timeline in short:
- previous multiverse ''ends'' by everything returning to one point, known as Life or the Sphere of Integration in Mystara
- Life bursts into an infinite number pieces, creating time-space, another cycle of the multiverse begins
- there's only the Ethereal, the plane of possibility
- first primordials appear, those of thought, energy, matter, time, and entropy
- eldest archfey reincarnate from the last cycle of the multiverse
- primordials of thought discover the Astral void, and create/become concepts/incarnations of Good, Evil, Chaos, Law. They form first outer planes, first as demiplanes in the Ethereal.
- in the Ethereal, the proto-stuff mostly gathers in four basic patterns, forming an infinite amunt of air, water, earth, and fire, that brings another, second, generation of primordials (e.g. titans).
- First mortal worshippers appear with the third generation of powers, e.g. Zeus, Odin |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 05 Nov 2013 : 09:19:11
Ooh, i like dwarves and giants being of the same stock.
It does seem bizarre though that Annam would start creating giants all over again on Faerun when he could just import them from wherever they existed before (the Fey plane).
I think since giants are a race born on Toril and dwarves are interlopers i would have the dwarven primogenitor being the first of Annam's children, which he then abandoned because of some kind of corruption that caused shortness. That would certainly explain any animosity between the two races.
And i love the idea of dwarves literally springing out of the rock. If Annam went to Toril and his dwarf children followed him, then gradually the magic of the Fey leaves them as they spend time on the material plane and they can no longer just spring out of the rock. The idea of them using great magic (rune magic no doubt) to combine themselves with other creatures - maybe galeb duhr, or pech, or other rock creatures which then makes them native to the prime material plane and able to reproduce in the normal way (for the material plane anyway) is also a good idea.
A recent scroll here pointed out an entry in dwarves deep which stated that the dwarves once had the ability to work tremendous rune magics (able to level entire cities) which they have now lost seems to grant credence to the idea that they once did great things - probably in order to save themselves from extinction and when they merged their essences with material plane creatures they lost that link to the Fey plane and lost the ability to perform such great magics.
The elves i guess retained their link to the Fey plane and so can still perform their great magics.
I think i prefer Omo being a Dawn Titan than a planar titan (a dawn titan in my mind isnt anything like a giant titan, more like an elemental primordial from the greek mythology. Whereas a planar titan just sounds like a more powerful human looking titan but that comes from the planes). So Omo is more like a massive rock creature, or fire creature, or water, or air, something made of the elements that resembles a massive two legged two armed creature.
That way the death of the batrachi emperor doesnt have to be part of any kind of war, it can be an entirely unrelated incident (the entry in GHoTR doesnt mention a war of any kind just that his reign ended when he was slain by Omo). So there was the emperor touring the northern provinces of his realm when he accidentally inserts a flag of his realm into the eyeball of the dawn titan Omo (who was lying down having a nap and resembled a rather large hill) who wakes up and takes umbridge at the assault and squishes the entire entourage.
Even the name Omo says simplicity and elemental to me, one of those childlike beings of immense power and little intelligence, probably the only word it could utter was "Omo" as it smushed his amphibious body beneath a thousand tons of rocky foot.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Nov 2013 : 13:46:21
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Now that you mention dawn titans i have seen you talk about titans existing before they were born and did not quite understand what you meant until now.
Grand History of the Realms:
quote:
c. –31500 DR
Under the wise leadership of Zhoukoudien, batrachi power reaches its zenith. The High One’s reign ends when he is slain in battle by the titan thane Omo.
–30000 DR to –24000 DR
— The great giant god Annam All-Father marries Othea, a lesser demigoddess of Toril. Their union produces eight terrestrial children. Ostoria, the Colossal Kingdom, is founded by Annam in honor of his sons.
Thus, Titans existed before Annam even met the mother of titans.
Note my use of capitalization; this was on-purpose. The first 'Titan' mentioned was a planer Titan - those that were covered in the Planescape products and live in Olympus and elsewhere (within the Outer Planes). A 'titan' - those that are in the standard monster manual and are the children of Annam and Othea - are 'terrestrial' (lesser) titans, and dwell within the Prime Material.
We also have two varieties of Cyclops - planer (from the original Deities & Demigods) and lesser, MM versions, and in 4e we got larger, more powerful Fomorians, and in earlier editions we got the weaker Fhoimoriens (using the Birthright spelling here to differentiate the two). Once again, we have a big difference in both size and power between the original, planer version and the lesser, terrestrial versions.
Which is the basis for my argument that there are two tiers of giants - those first (greater) giants that lived on the First World, many of whom wound-up in the Feywild (The Elder Wilds), and then Annam went-about 'seeding' many Prime Worlds with those lesser versions. Apparently there was some sort of competition amongst the 'old ones' about who's race would be the best, and since the Creator Races wound-up in many Crystal Spheres, Annam made sure his people were still 'in the running'.
Also, I think Annam is the same 'All Father' as Odin (Woten), and is also the unnamed, dwarven 'High God' mentioned in the Complete Book of Dwarves.
You see, dwarves and giants are really the same race, thats why so many of them can change size (Spriggans, Firbolds, Duergar, etc). The dwarves were the children of Ymir ("the blood of Ymir") that crawled forth from his dying corpse (the Sundered Material plane). Annam was also the first 'son of Ymir', and therefor one of the most powerful primoridal Titans, so the Dwarves and giants are kin. The dwarves looked upon their older, powerful 'cousins' with awe, and served them, up until the giants came into conflict with the Fey. As a weapon, the giants created the first terrestrial dragons using dwarves (this comes straight from mythology) in an Eldritch (Rune Magic) ritual. The dwarves felt this was a betrayal, and most fled the Feywild and the giant/fey War.
Planer dwarves are all male, and are born directly from stone. Once they settled on the prime Material, females were needed (because the 'magic of the planes' no longer worked), and they accomplished this through various means (crossbreeding, magic, etc). Thus, no terrestrial dwarves are pure-blood dwarves (just as terrestrial elves are no longer pure-blood Fey).
Toward the end of the Giant/Fey War, the dragons freed themselves from their giantish yokes and also fled to the material plane. To keep them from doing further harm, the Fey sent their mortal children - the elves - to the prime worlds to hunt-down the dragons before they completely took over those worlds (I added this because of that bit from GHotR). This is why the giants, elves, dragons, and dwarves all have such a complicated and contentious history - all have reasons for hating the others (and all are merely 'shadows' of their former, planer glory).
I've worked-in the draconic myths as well - the giants tried many versions of their dragon-creating rituals (thus making different species), and several Drækons* and other powers also tampered with these experiments, creating unique variants of their own (including Bahamut and Tiamat).
You see, the war never ends... it just has new battlefields. The Bloodwar itself is an outgrowth of that original conflict - the Godwar (which in reality is/was a series of wars, with ever-changing sides). Each new dimension, plane, sphere, demi- and even pocket-plane affords these beings a new territory they feel needs conquering. It can't end, because the objectives - and agendas of those involved - are constantly changing.
*Greater celestial dragons - immensely powerful beings of pure energy, of a magnitude higher then primordials - the Supernals.
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 04 Nov 2013 : 09:05:09
Hugely powerful children is how i picture the earlier primordials as well.
The earlier primordials in my mind were the more simple ones made up of one maybe two elements and are essentially just unique elemental blobs (like the titans from greek mythology).
Later primordials created from a mixing of the earlier primordials would be much more complicated and therefore more intelligent. The grandfather tree sounds like a primordial to me and is certainly capable of reasoned thought (he exiled the blue bear tribe). I think Lurue the unicorn is probably a primordial as well (the first unicorn that spawned all the lesser unicorns). I would even go so far as to propose that Elrem be a primordial as well (given that uthgar subdued him to serve as his beast totem), but he is so complex that his raw power is much lower compared to earlier primordials. That doesnt mean he is a weakling, compared to a mortal he would be powerful (if he werent dead), but no match for even a demigod.
Now that you mention dawn titans i have seen you talk about titans existing before they were born and did not quite understand what you meant until now.
So when the batrachi emperor died fighting the dawn titan Omo he wasnt fighting a titan (ie massive humanoid of tremendous power), instead he was fighting a primordial. Even the name Omo is simplicity in the extreme so he was likely fighting one of the early primordials - ie a dawn titan - i picture a huge being of rock and magma.
The question is why were the batrachi fighting a primordial and how did this then spill over into conflict with the giants (who are unrelated to the original primordial dawn titans).
Could it be that the batrachi - rulers of the planet Toril (or at least large parts of it) sought to take power from the most powerful beings and therefore masters of Toril. I guess the batrachi bit off more than they could chew and suffered heavy casualties subduing primordials.
Could it be then that the primordials appealed to a deity of the fey plane (i dont know why giants would come from the fey plane but i cant think where else they would come from. The fey plane is life personified and giants are indeed full of life - just look at their height and power and strength and innate magical abilities).
Annam arrives and finds that the primordials are shackled to the whims of the batrachi - a mere lesser race, spawned of primordials. He realises he needs allies and sets about creating his own army. Searching far and wide he finds Othea in the frozen north - a place the amphibious batrachi cannot venture. Mating with Othea he creates his own army of primordials and their children - the giants.
Annam and his children go to war with the batrachi. Fighting to a stalemate using their primordial servants (how else would the batrachi compete with giants and titans), the primordials call upon the most powerful primordial they can find - Asgoroth - who hurls a moon at Toril (secretly hoping to annihilate the batrachi as well as doing as he is bidden by his masters).
And thats the start of dragons.
Or once again i could be talking rot.
But it does seem strange that first batrachi are fighting the dawn titans who are either primordials or a race that doesnt exist yet. Then later they enlist the aid of a primordial to help defeat a race of powerful humanoids that dwell in an environment that the batrachi cannot go.
In fact the two races could have coexisted quite happily. The giants could have kept to the land and the batrachi could stay in the water and there would be no need for a war of annihilation that nearly destroyed the world. So why did both sides feel a need to annihilate the other (and possibly the world in the process).
Well the above is my idea for a solution, not saying its a good one but i think we need some more detail for the giants and indeed the batrachi and why they fought. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 19:35:52
Well, the bottom line is, I think the (current) D&D term 'primordials' is more-or-less a catch-all for "all those beings that are not deities, but are of the 'god' level of power, and have been around since the beginning (or nearly so)". It is, indeed, extremely vague (but in their defense, I think it was meant to be so).
Thats why I take the word and try to assign it a place within an ever-higher-reaching echelon of beings.
The concept was never a bad one, just the lack of proper execution, as you've pointed-out. Right now a lot of people are picturing Greek-style, Titan-like beings (which are themselves represented vastly different from media to media). I think those beings - the Planer Titans - are just the first batch of 'children' of the Primordials, and thats why they get associated with them so often (and why many Titans have elemental leanings). True primordials - the ones I think the 4e concept was trying to embody - are more 'living energy that has achieved awareness', and as such, are both incredibly powerful, and at the same time, almost child-like in their behavior (they had no 'growing up' like mortal beings do) and actions (because without that 'maturity' mortal beings achieve, they are very reptilian in their thinking - its all about fulfilling their own, current desire with no thought to consequences).
Picture a 100-megaton atomic bomb with the mind of a two year old, and you'd just be scratching the surface of what a primordial is like. Those few that have merged with/absorbed human sentiences (souls?) are 'deeper', and able to understand how their actions have consequences for others (and some of those become deities that way). How do you even hold something accountable, when it isn't even aware of the harm it is causing?
Such was Ao's dilemma, me thinks. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 19:16:26
Well canon is spellplague and novels. Give me homebrew any day. Very slowly I am building up my own realms using musings from Ed and George and Eric and Erik and Brian and Steven and all the other wonderful scribes here that have such awesome ideas I would have to spend a lifetime trying to think them up myself (yes Markus that includes your ideas on culture groups and origins, and Dalor's idea's about orc society as well).
So far I have a very detailed Cormyr as expected. I'm fleshing out Stonelands and Vaasa nicely. Impiltur is very full as well and i'm slowly working on the North.
Canon can take a ride as far as i'm concerned. Non of the RSE's will make it into my game anywhere near like canon. What use is an event that shakes the world if no one gets to take part.
And that's one of the reasons for this topic. Primordials are a great idea but a vague execution with little useful information.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 13:59:27
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I like the idea that life began in the feywild/faerie. It makes sense somewhat, because many of the beings there are naturally immortal. Perhaps death formed on the "primes" whenever "life" began to form there. Life energy being a major basis of magic... perhaps this is why the feywild/faerie is so magically capable (even compared to Toril).
One of my early Fey theories was that they came from toril origainlly, which made perfect sense because they were one of Toril's Creator Races (Creatori).
However, as my theories have evolved (and broadened to take-in all other worlds/planes), I realize this doesn't work so well. Or rather, it does work, but not in the way I originally saw it. Faerie was on Toril, but only in-as-much as that Toril was part of that 'One World' (First World) before The Sundering.
This single plane was all-that-was at that time. The gods lived 'on high', and the servants lived 'below'. This is in at least 4-dimensional space, so that 'up' and 'down' don't really mean the same thing as they do in a 3-dimensional model - think of them both as more of 'beyond'. The surface of this one world was like a giant laboratory, where all these mighty being got to play with their creations (and the Creator Races were born). This planer model was much closer to how the Norse viewed things, but the different 'regions' were easier to reach in this earlier proto-era.
When that world was sundered (by the death of Ymir in my mythos), the gods choose to stay 'above' and created their own region that we now call the Upper Planes (which were simply 'the heavens' back then). The demons - those elemtnal beings who once were the 'grunts' (labor-force) of the gods choose to stay 'below' the world, and set-up their own region (now know as the 'lower planes', or simply, 'the hels'). From this initial, three-world(plane) model, the Feywild and Shadowfel were created - the feywild being the reflection of the Prime material on the 'bottom' of the Upper worlds, and the Shadowfel being the dark shadow of the Prime cas upon the lower worlds. Many beings who felt no affiliation to the other three worlds - the Upper, lower, and Prime (Midgard) worlds began to settle in these two new psuedo-planes (which have gradually become planes in their own right). the All-father (Annam) may have been the very first god to shunt some of his people into one of these regions to try and save them from what was happening on the material world.
So we had one plane (dimension), which became three, and then five, and this has grown into the various cosmologies we primes recognize... and none of which is correct, BTW. We can barely fathom 4-dimensional space, so how can we possibly wrap our minds around how 11-dimensional space might work?
Here's an old mock-up of how I pictured the planer structure.
___________________________________________________________________________________
When the Material Plane was shattered (into the Prime and four elemental planes), the Creatori all scrambled for ways to continue their existence. Not only did each race come up with different methods, but groups within each race came-up with different paths to take. The greater part of the Fey - those that choose to abandon the Prime material - merged their essence with Danu (the mot powerful archfey that ever existed), and she sacrificed herself to recreate their homeland within the Feywild. Where their old home was is now known as the blasted wastes of Ladinion (for those that like Cthulhu stuff, this could work as the Plateau of Leng).
The only problem is that the Feywild wasn't always the Fey-Wild, it was Jotunheim, or rather, 'The Giant Wilds'. It is where the 'All Father' (the being known as Annam) moved HIS children when the Material plane was shattered. After many wars, the Giants have been pushed into the wilder, border regions of the Feywild, but they have never forgiven the Fey (or their children) for this indignity (this is all derived from Celtish/Irish folkore).
Note that is this mostly homebrew, based on lots of stuff, but my own conjecture, and certainly NOT canon. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 13:27:26
quote:
Originally posted by Sleyvas
This is the one part where you and I always stray Markustay (and its not a bad thing). Personally, I hate seeing the word EVERY. Kossuth is A powerful primordial encompassing the primary essence of fire. I don't believe the the only primordial of such type.
Not really as much as you think. I agree that there should be more then one 'Kossuth', and that I really hate that they made the FR-specif Elemental lords core. I prefer to think of that as just a name humans (and us gamers) are familiar with, and have no real bearing on what these 'things' call themselves, or each other.
I also cling to my 'archtype' theory - that all these Kossuths are part of one, greater Fire Primordial - they are just local avatars assigned to each crystal sphere. This is something that needed to be done after the Prime was shattered (see below), and it could have also even been a great way for the Over/Elder gods (those beings a tier above primoridals) to nerf some of the primordial's power, and keep them in-check. The original fire primordial may have been near-omnipotent, but now he has had to split himself up into an uncountable number of 'lesser' Kossuths (greater/planer Titans? Jotuns?)
"Every" is also a word I don't care for much - when I use it, I mean that it is the 'usual, natural state' of such things, but for everything in a near-limitless multiverse, there should be dozens (if not thousands) of exceptions to everything. When we discuss such things, I tend to think in terms of very standard, generic fantasy (D&D) worlds. There are lots of 'odd-ball' worlds out there, but those fall into those exceptions.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well I cant say im thrilled with the idea of multiple cities of brass ruled by people with the same name.
But since abeir toril supposedly means cradle of life, how about if the prime material plane started there first.
THIS
My own concept isn't that Toril was first (that was my original theory), but rather, it (and perhaps Krynn and Oerth) were a core part of the 'First World' which got sundered. That what we know of Torillian history is confusing because Torillian scholars are confused - all history before the Sundering was about that proto-world (a flat, near-infinite plane, really). This is why we have giants, elves, dwarves, etc EVERYWHERE. the Crystal spheres are really just the 'broken bits' of the Prime Material plane which was shattered during the Godwar. This means that the Creator Races were from that First World, and not really Toril-specific at all (which would actually help explain MUCH).
I don't think there are multiple cities of brass, but what I think is that mortals (natives of the Material Plane) are 'anchored' to their plane, in much the same way that everyone else (outsider) is. We have just been looking at things from a very prime-centric point-of-view. So if someone from Toril travels to the City of Brass, when they leave they return to their plane of origin. So does someone from Krynn, or Oerth, etc. This gives Mortals the false conception that it is 'their' City of Brass (or Sigil, or whatever). Each primer has to follow the 'rules' as dictated by his own beliefs, so although folk from different worlds may meet while traveling the planes, each is following his own set of rules (and beliefs) regarding them, which could even effect how they perceive what they are seeing. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 09:30:20
I think tiamat has two avatars as well so a similar thing might have occured with her.
I agree with you that rule of two for the sun gods of the faerunian pantheon wouldnt apply to others. And I reckon it didnt even apply to faerun in the beginning. Belief however is powerful in fact it is all powerful when it comes to deities. A few scholars might have noticed a pattern and come up with the incorrect idea that the three cannot exist together. However word spread and enough people came to believe it and so that made it true. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 00:50:55
I like the idea that life began in the feywild/faerie. It makes sense somewhat, because many of the beings there are naturally immortal. Perhaps death formed on the "primes" whenever "life" began to form there. Life energy being a major basis of magic... perhaps this is why the feywild/faerie is so magically capable (even compared to Toril).
I like the idea that Bhaal's other aspect is because he subsumed a primordial and can't quite get rid of it.
On the Amaunator/Lathander thing... I find it odd that everyone focuses on these two sun gods and don't recognize how many other sun gods there have been in the realms. There was at least Re (Mulhorand), Horus-Re (also Mulhorand), Utu (Untheric), Tezca (Maztica), Stronmaus (Storm and Cloud Giants). From their stories, they can't all be "aspects" or "alias" of each other. I personally think something along the lines of what you said. Amaunator was perhaps another name of Stronmaus (who if you read his story, does sound like a primordial) who was adopted by the Netherese pantheon from the Giants. Along comes another pantheon and there's this fey being named Lathander with the god template (remembering that Arvandor and Olympus are the same place in the realms). Lathander manages to force Stronmaus to give up his position as Amaunator, but he survives on as Stronmaus still with the giants. Maybe he did this by capturing the avatar of Amaunator. Later, Stronmaus plays on historians interest in this old aspect of himself, and somehow uses it to turn the tables on Lathander using the old Alias (possibly exactly as you say by creating the second sun). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 19:31:28
Cant say I was too fond of the idea of Toril being the centre of the material universe even after it came out of my mouth (metaphorically speaking).
I prefer to think the first life began on the fey plane. It certainly strikes me as the more ancient and life filled area. In fact it may have been a previous attempt at life creation that the universe attempted and abandoned for whatever reason.
But anyway back to primordial musings.
I have had a few thoughts about the deities and primordials. It seems that quite a few gods have multiple avatars, and I was wondering at the reason for this. Bhaal for instance has that monstrous ravager creature and I was thinking that perhaps at some point in his godhood, Bhaal may have competed against this ravage creature for a piece of portfolio (violent death maybe). Bhaal obviously won, and this avatar is a vestige of that creature.
Maybe that creature was a primordial at one point and cannot be wholly subsumed into Bhaal and so there always has to be at least one of this avatar wandering the realms that has its own personality independent of Bhaal but always acts to promote Bhaal's portfolio.
If more people worshipped the ravage as being the lord of murder then Bhaal would become the subservient one, or separate somehow.
Maybe that's what happened with Lathander and Amaunator. Lathander assumed large portions of Amaunators portfolio and kept his avatar locked up underground somewhere so no one could see it. When that guy cast the permanent second sun spell in the town that mysteriously changed to a different town in 4e. Then people began believing in a sun god that was separate to Lathander. And hey presto Amaunator becomes a separate deity.
And because of that tri partite thing where you cant have a dawn, dusk, and noon god at the same time Lathander gradually disappeared.
Although i'm not convinced that Jergal is still a deity at this time. I reckon that since he largely acted according to his own rules and apart form the other deities (was he cast down during the TOT?). At some point he must have been a primordial, who became a deity, who gave his godhood to the dark three and became a deity again.
Perhaps that was what the subduing of the 7 lost gods was because the mortal versions of the dark three couldn't handle all the power that Jergal contained in his portfolio, it might have destroyed them or driven them mad (Cyric!). So he had them go and gradually increase their power using that dagger to slay, subdue, banish the 7 lost gods (primordial). Then when they were ready he relinquished his portfolios and power gladly knowing that he had dodged the bullet with regards to his death (and Lathander's arrival) and the TOT.
Wow that's a lot of musings, and all probably total cr*p but at least its not in my head now, quite enough for one day. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 00:24:53
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well I cant say im thrilled with the idea of multiple cities of brass ruled by people with the same name.
But since abeir toril supposedly means cradle of life, how about if the prime material plane started there first.
So all these gods of other spheres that are the same came from Toril first. I'm sure the history of the other worlds is longer than Toril's 70,000 years which would completely invalidate that idea, but such is life.
What I mean is Kossuth arose or arrived on Toril first and was elevated to godhood here. Then he visited the other worlds as he desired and they all came to worship him. That doesn't mean all gods arose on Toril. we have plenty of interloper gods for sure. But the humans could have been created here first (hence the term creator race - created on toril, Crea-Tor) migrated to other worlds and invented their own gods that were exported back to Toril at some point.
Anyway, that's one of those off topic things.
Back to Primordials.
I can't say im convinced with this term arch fey. It seems that arch fey are just primordials that live on the fey plane. Other than their location they don't seem all that different.
The fey plane (if it is a plane, it may just be a big planet in its own pocket dimension), is different from the material plane, but it doesn't fit in the elemental (inner) or outer planes category. It seems to be one of those transitory planes (where people can move between planes), but it is special in that it is also capable of creating life. Maybe it is a plane of life and magic rather than the elements that combined to form the material plane.
I am with Markustay's theory that Corellon and probably all the seldarine, and Lolth, were all primordial on the fey plane (subservient to that plane's primordial rulers) and migrated to Toril with their children - the elves).
Once on Toril, worship of the elves would have elevated the seldarine to godhood.
Now whether the events surrounding Lolth's descent, or the battle between Corellon and Gruumsh happened on the material plane or on faerie, or on the outer planes I don't know. Maybe Corellon remained on the fey plane and the worship of the elves on Toril raised him to godhood.
Any of those possibilities is possible. But it seems certain to me that Corellon was a primordial and the elves his children (or the seldarine's children). And since only primordials seem capable of creating material plane life he must have ben a primordial
I never said the multiple cities of brass would be ruled by people with the same name. They could have an entirely different structure. Point being many different people have come out with their own "city of brass".... this would simply allow for them all to be true. That being said, I'm not hard stuck on this particular idea, but it just seems to me that there's probably a lot of different Efreeti cities.
On Toril being the first crystal sphere. I see several people throwing that around. Personally, I'd prefer that not be the case. Is Toril special to my heart? Yes. Does it need to be effectively the start of the universe? No. The people that started the universe should know a lot more about the universe IMO. That being said, I believe in the old spelljammer products it stated that all crystal spheres continually grow, and Toril is one of the largest, and therefore one of the oldest.
|
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 19:32:51
Oh and maybe you don't have to kill a primordial to steal it's power.
Maybe the dagger the dark three were given allowed them to steal a primordial's power, just attacking it would siphon off some. Maybe Uthgar beat the primordials into subservience and they voluntarily relinquished some of their power to him |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 19:16:46
Well I cant say im thrilled with the idea of multiple cities of brass ruled by people with the same name.
But since abeir toril supposedly means cradle of life, how about if the prime material plane started there first.
So all these gods of other spheres that are the same came from Toril first. I'm sure the history of the other worlds is longer than Toril's 70,000 years which would completely invalidate that idea, but such is life.
What I mean is Kossuth arose or arrived on Toril first and was elevated to godhood here. Then he visited the other worlds as he desired and they all came to worship him. That doesn't mean all gods arose on Toril. we have plenty of interloper gods for sure. But the humans could have been created here first (hence the term creator race - created on toril, Crea-Tor) migrated to other worlds and invented their own gods that were exported back to Toril at some point.
Anyway, that's one of those off topic things.
Back to Primordials.
I can't say im convinced with this term arch fey. It seems that arch fey are just primordials that live on the fey plane. Other than their location they don't seem all that different.
The fey plane (if it is a plane, it may just be a big planet in its own pocket dimension), is different from the material plane, but it doesn't fit in the elemental (inner) or outer planes category. It seems to be one of those transitory planes (where people can move between planes), but it is special in that it is also capable of creating life. Maybe it is a plane of life and magic rather than the elements that combined to form the material plane.
I am with Markustay's theory that Corellon and probably all the seldarine, and Lolth, were all primordial on the fey plane (subservient to that plane's primordial rulers) and migrated to Toril with their children - the elves).
Once on Toril, worship of the elves would have elevated the seldarine to godhood.
Now whether the events surrounding Lolth's descent, or the battle between Corellon and Gruumsh happened on the material plane or on faerie, or on the outer planes I don't know. Maybe Corellon remained on the fey plane and the worship of the elves on Toril raised him to godhood.
Any of those possibilities is possible. But it seems certain to me that Corellon was a primordial and the elves his children (or the seldarine's children). And since only primordials seem capable of creating material plane life he must have ben a primordial |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 18:16:53
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The 'Big Four' - the elemental lords (Kossuth, etc) - are core now, which could help explain why they could have been active on both Abeir and Toril. They are the very embodiment of the four primal elements, and probably can't be banned from any sphere (without that sphere deteriorating rapidly).
They are the same four elemental lords on EVERY D&D world. That makes them more then primordials - it makes them a magnitude higher.
Unless, of course, these rules apply to ALL primordials... which makes us wonder, then, how Ao managed to pull his 'hat trick'.
This is the one part where you and I always stray Markustay (and its not a bad thing). Personally, I hate seeing the word EVERY. Kossuth is A powerful primordial encompassing the primary essence of fire. I don't believe the the only primordial of such type.
At one point you espoused a view that was very similar to mine in regards to the elemental chaos. It was basically that in previous editions where we THOUGHT there was a specific plane of fire, water, earth, etc..... it was our own misconception, because we had discovered a section of the elemental chaos that was very uniformly a single element. Then we discovered vast swathes that were made up of what we termed "para-elemental planes" for vast swathes that corresponded to other intermixed elemental types that were relatively uniform. I believe that there are numerous of these "uniform sections" of fire, and each has its own primordial who is like Kossuth. They may share similar physical forms... they may not... they may even have different views on fire (some may espouse fire's hunger more... some may espouse its life-giving nature... some may pose as sun deities on other worlds, etc...). The same goes for areas of water, earth, air, minerals, steam, magma, etc...
On that note, I also suspect that there are multiple "Cities of Brass" and that wily Efreeti Pasha's have hidden this fact. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 16:53:01
I'm liking the off topic tangents it appeals to my short attention span.
I dont necessarily think that the war of primordials versus deities ever existed or was as clean cut as they say.
I think that the first generation of primordials were very primordial in nature, embodiments of elements - fire, water, ice, magma, earth, shadow. Very simple but powerful beings born out of singular elements.
The "mating" (although as we can see from the giant history it is just a mingling of essences) created more complex primordials that were lesser in power (but probably only just). Until we see forms of life that one would recognise on Toril today.
The war of light and darkness appears to have been a war just between the primordials themselves and resulted in the birth of the sun which is probably what allowed the lesser races to begin appearing (previous to that any human created by the humanlike primordial would have died instantly in the hostile environment that lacked light).
I agree that selune and shar's battle also caused the creation of the weave and maybe not the goddess mystryl herself at the time.
But with the sun and magic life can then be created normally, the lesser races appear and so does belief.
The more powerful, prominent, active primordials become elevated to godhood and the deities are born.
So what would there be to war about - for the power of godhood perhaps.
It seems that in order for life to be created the primordials are necessary. Annam mated with the primordial Othea to create the giants (well the giant primordials were born who in turn created giants). So why would the gods kill primordials when they need them to bring life to the planet.
I dont really bother with other world cosmology, i keep to the great wheel but am not concerned with core gods and fr gods etc.
However if kossuth for instance were the primordial of fire, at some point worship elevates him to godhood and he chooses to dwell on the elemental plane of fire. That plane then picks him as its representative and makes him a cosmic entity and he is then available to all other worlds.
Or possibly Kossuth was a primordial on the elemental plane first that was responsible for creating the planet toril in the first place (by mixing with the other elemental lord primordials). He is then at a later date elevated by the plane of fire to cosmic entity status for being the most supreme representative of fire in the multiverse.
In fact there is nothing to say Kossuth and the other elemental lord primordials didnt repeat the act of creating planets over and over again. Or that they just mixed to form the material plane and the planets coalesced naturally. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 15:58:48
The 'Big Four' - the elemental lords (Kossuth, etc) - are core now, which could help explain why they could have been active on both Abeir and Toril. They are the very embodiment of the four primal elements, and probably can't be banned from any sphere (without that sphere deteriorating rapidly).
They are the same four elemental lords on EVERY D&D world. That makes them more then primordials - it makes them a magnitude higher.
Unless, of course, these rules apply to ALL primordials... which makes us wonder, then, how Ao managed to pull his 'hat trick'. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 15:53:17
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
... but Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal killed several of what could now be considered primordials.
Sigh, i'm sorry dazzlerdal, i'm always adding off topicness to your thread. But this one is something i'm interested in (as evidenced by past threads): the Dark Three *didn't* kill many primordials, they probably didn't kill a single one of them.
Borem is the closest one to death, yet it's enough to remove the dagger from the heart and give him some time to flow out of it and he will be back around kicking butts. When getting back to the living is so easy, i don't think we can call that death.
Maram was banished back to one elemental or para-elemental plane (there was NO F*****G "elemental chaos" back then!!!).
Tyranthraxus is the weirdest one because it seems the Dark Three released him, he "avenged" Maram going against the nations that took part in his banishing and yet some suspect the Dark Three had a hand in unleashing Tyranthraxus. Anyway he was definetely NOT dead considering all the troubles for Phlan and Myth Drannor he caused with the Pools of Radiance.
Haask and Hargut were bound to each other and confined to the depths beneath Ironfang Keep while still alive and should still be there as far as we know in any era we players and DMs set our games.
Canmod the Unseen is ... well he/she/it it's true to his name but keeping in tone with the other means he/she/it should still be alive bound near the Glacier of the White Wyrm or banished somewhere.
Even if i don't like the Primordials one bit and will keep them out of my game world, just theorizing i think we can see them as the expressions of the multitude of spirits/souls of material things.
To elaborate: Kossuth is the embodiment of the utter neutrality of a raging natural forest fire gaining sentience by the sum of the essences of all the fire elementals with no particular good or evil tendency while his evil counterpart is the expression of the hunger to consume of the evil elemental beings connected to fire, And the same with the other elements
In this light, Chauntea would definitely be a Primordial, Shar and Selune, being the "daughters of the universe" and "mothers of creation" would be the other two big Primordials out there and the Weave would be the last member of the quartet being the expression of the magical and mystical energies of creation.
Yes, i said the Weave and not Mystr-- because i want to throw in these odd idea: what if Mystr-- was the mean with which Shar and Selune finally subjugated the other unruly Primordials?
Elaborating: Shar, Selune, Chauntea and the Weave were the first 4, they then started creating all the rest of the family of Primordials, mortals appeared and the adoration of the mortal races brought to us the deities. Conflict sparked because the Primordials were left out of the faith-circuit, Chauntea fought for her mortal children that spawned the deities so she sided with the deities, the Weave supported her magically talented and mystically powerful brothers and sisters and so sided with the Primordials. Selune and Shar stayed neutral for a time, then decided to end things but couldn't force ALL their sons and daughters to cease fire so they beheaded the most dangerous side (the Primordials that were going on a rampage) by binding the Weave inside a newly created deity. This operation was costly but utlimately brought victory to the deities, Selune took all the fame and her enmity with Shar blossomed as the darker sister wasn't recognized as a savior on par with Selune by the divine beings.
This means that Mystr-- is just a shell for the trapped Weave and this would explain her "fragility" and the high body count of those that followed the first in the office: unsettle the balance of the Weave too much with spells and such and the Primordial will struggle in its bonds and destroy its vessel, running amok for a while until Ao or the greater gods bind it securely again.
And since i don't know the specifics of how Cyric managed to slay Mystra in Dweomerheart, i would go with the fact that Shar let him in this little dirty secret and he knew were to strike to unravel the most superficial bindings that kept Mystra together and the Weave caged.
Just to add my 2 coppers, sorry again for all the off-topics. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 15:40:21
I think it was more of a 'World War' type of event. Some 'power' did not like something another power did, and then did something to retaliate (this was probably the WoL&D). Then that power - with help from others - did something back. And so on, and so forth, until just about everyone was involved, and the whole world was literally 'going to hell in a hand-basket'.
Ao stepped-in only when he felt the Sphere itself was in jeopardy, and thus 'twinned the world' to separate some of the factions.
I say 'some' because not everyone may have been involved, and also some of those involved may have been necessary to keep around on one or both worlds, and some may have even been 'playing both ends against the middle' (inciting the whole thing even further).
So I don't think its as cut-and-dry as him just shunting the primordials off to their own world (because we know some primordials were still around), it was more like imprisoning those who's power was capable of disrupting the primal (physics) forces of the universe and destroying the Crystal sphere out-right, and ALSO those who had no compunctions not to do so (because some of those that had the power would not have taken that chance).
Why Shar remained on Toril is anyone's guess. I personally think she qualified to be 'jailed' over on Abeir. She has both the power, and is selfish enough not to care what befalls everyone else. On the other hand, she DID lose a major portion of her power right at the onset... that may have actually turned out to be her saving's grace.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 14:59:46
I'd stress here that first generation primordials of this crystal sphere were more powerful. This could be a standard amongst most crystal spheres when they're formed... that they generate "primordial beings" of great power. Thus, in a newly formed crystal sphere now, there could be some primordial being forming even now of great power.... within that crystal sphere.
I'd then stress that there is a different kind of primordial being. These are the primordial beings formed strictly from the elemental planes. We would typically call them Elemental Lords or Genie Caliphs. These beings maybe don't spawn as strong as those initial primordials from a crystal sphere, but they spawn with no lessening of power over time. While they have magic, it tends to be limited to the magic of the elements for the most part.
Similarly, Archfey spawn over time, but these beings are much more inherently magical than the elemental primordials, and their magic runs the gamut of ideas.
So, this brings us to a question.... why did Ao TWIN Toril (i.e. are there any reasons besides those listed).... was it maybe because of some conflict between the Archfey and the elemental lords (with the Archfey creating many god-template ascensions of themselves)? Is Toril inherently so magical because of its links to Faerie/the Feywild? Is elemental type magics stronger in Abeir and maybe more "fey" magics (beguilements, charms, illusions, etc...) weaker? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 14:28:12
Just a further thought about primordials and their creation.
It does seem that there is a pyramid of sorts for their power and that the older first generation primordials were more powerful than the ones that come later.
So Selune, Chauntea/Toril, Shar were the first and largest and most powerful.
They each spawned children either spontaneously or with each other. Maybe Chauntea and Shar collaborating together created the shadevari who sound like primordials to me. Arakhor also sound like primordials spawned by Chauntea as well.
These children were less powerful, but still god like in power. Wars happened some became deities etc time goes one. The primordials continue to have children that eventually spawn the lesser races - humans, giants, sarrukh, batrachi, aeree, etc.
It appears however that primordials were/are still being produced. These must have been much lesser in power and maybe on a par with demigods or even lesser than that.
More importantly it looks like power transfers from primordials to whoever kills it. Maybe not in every instance, but Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal killed several of what could now be considered primordials.
Uthgar may also have done something similar, although he may not have killed the primordial, merely defeated it. I wonder at one point did Uthgar tame these primordials, and what was his exact route to godhood.
Did he ascend straight away upon his death, or did he become a powerful servant of Tempus - i have seen the term exarch bandied about a bit since 4e, but i have no idea what it refers to. Maybe he became a favoured representative of Tempus, and used his newfound power to best several primordials in the north (elrem, the grandfather tree, the blue bear, the sky pony, the red tiger, etc). Then using the power bestowed upon him by these beings elevated himself to full blown godhood.
One final point. If the power of primordials diminishes with each generation will there be any more. Is the power of Toril/Chauntea depleted to the point that she has dispersed her energy among all the races that live on the surface of Toril today.
Anyways, just a few more thoughts on primordials, and their origins, and possibly future. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 02:36:59
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The simple fact is Celestian was not only able to work-around the mandate of an Overgod from a different sphere, but he went ahead and did so for Waukeen (it only failed because Graz'zt betrayed them).
Eh, Celestian smuggled a goddess out of Toril? No? Then he didn't work-around anything. Ao's dictates were to prevent deities from getting back to their homeplanes, did Celestian get Waukeen with her full divine essence to her homeplane? No, he got her to the Astral Plane as a mortal.
That is correct. Waukeen had to set aside her divinity, and passed it to her friend Llira. Had Waukeen managed to leave the Realms as a deity, Graz'zt would not have been able to hold her when the ToT ended. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 19:54:15
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Reading what you quoted, I do not see Celestian 'quaking in is boots'; its more like why I don't drive over 55 (because I don't want to get pulled over and then have to spend a day in court).
Am I afraid of the police? Only in as much as they can make my life miserable.
Sure, he's not quaking (and in fact he agrees to smuggle Waukeen in exchange for a favor) but he doesn't say he didn't want to get on Ao's bad side because he's Waukeen's boss or an Overgod, it says he refused to offend "such a powerful being as Ao". So it's not the office of Ao that causes Celestian adamant refusal, it's his power.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The simple fact is Celestian was not only able to work-around the mandate of an Overgod from a different sphere, but he went ahead and did so for Waukeen (it only failed because Graz'zt betrayed them).
Eh, Celestian smuggled a goddess out of Toril? No? Then he didn't work-around anything. Ao's dictates were to prevent deities from getting back to their homeplanes, did Celestian get Waukeen with her full divine essence to her homeplane? No, he got her to the Astral Plane as a mortal.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We will have to agree to disagree, then.
Fair enough, i just don't see why you want so much to see this thing as a failure of Ao when he got what he wanted (no deities back until he said so) while Waukeen was stranded for years in Graz'zt hands. Celestian actually got out for the better, he repayed his debt with Waukeen and he hasn't won the enmity of Ao since his actions changed nothing. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 19:36:09
Just a note, Celestian may not have worried about being affected by Ao even on Greyhawk. He may have simply said "well, one day one of my followers might come to this world... and give me a toehold... at that time I'll have to ask this guy Ao if I can come over.... he may forgive me for helping a friend, but he might not forgive me helping some random chick that he's trying to make an example of". |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 19:32:49
We will have to agree to disagree, then. Reading what you quoted, I do not see Celestian 'quaking in is boots'; its more like why I don't drive over 55 (because I don't want to get pulled over and then have to spend a day in court).
Am I afraid of the police? Only in as much as they can make my life miserable.
The simple fact is Celestian was not only able to work-around the mandate of an Overgod from a different sphere, but he went ahead and did so for Waukeen (it only failed because Graz'zt betrayed them). |
| Demzer |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 18:19:09
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ahhh, but I also picture their being some sort of 'court' you can bring transgressions to - something akin to Marvel Comic's Living Tribunal.
Could be but see below
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It doesn't mean he was afraid of Ao,
I beg to differ, based on this from Faiths & Avatars, page 177:
"She left the mantle of her divinity with Lliira for safe-keeping, since Celestian adamantly would not risk offending such a powerful being as Ao by trying to transport Lliira, a goddess he did not even know, in addition to Waukeen."
To me it's not "i don't want to offend your boss out of courtesy" but rather "i don't want to offend your boss that can kick my butt from this crystal sphere to the next".
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If anything, I think Celestian just having the ability to bypass Ao's mandate supports MY point - thanks for that.
Nope. More from Faiths & Avatars, same page:
"Celestian agreed to repay the favor by transporting Waukeen off of Toril and into the Astral Plane and shielding her temporarily from Ao, but there was one sticking point—Ao was preventing all Realms deities from leaving Toril. In order to leave the Astral Plane and enter the Outer Planes, Waukeen would have to give up being a goddess. Because of the peculiar restrictions Ao had forced upon the powers in their avatar forms, Waukeen was able to shed her mantle of divinity, reducing herself to no more than an extremely powerful, but extremely knowledgeable, mortal."
This means neither Waukeen nor Celestian could do a thing about "deities can't leave Toril" so she was forced to leave her divinity behind and we all know how that ended. If we want to give Ao some bad reputation we could say he wasn't insightful enough to predict some deities would try such means and more, but maybe he accounted for them, and wanted their failures to speak for him about the deities' incompetence.
Re-reading that passage i find surprising that Celestian even had the power to shield Waukeen-without-divinity from Ao, even just "temporarily", suggesting that Ao's power while greater than that of gods has some limit when we talk about non divine beings, thus he isn't omnipotent (kind of hilarious if a joint venture of all the most powerful "mortals" could b***h-slap Ao while all the deities are powerless against him).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And while we are on the subject - Mystra and several others all tried other means to ascend back into the Heavens. Doesn't that mean Ao has no direct control over deities, other then just giving them orders? Much like how a boss doesn't physically control us, they just tell us what to do. We have 'free will' to obey or disobey (but we mostly obey, because of the consequences, which goes right back to how I started this post). He couldn't force them to stay on Toril, and he couldn't even close-down these alternates routes back in - all he could do was dictate.
As far as i know, no cast away deity succeeded in getting back to it's home plane, no deity got past the Celestial Staircase (that can still be counted as Prime Material Plane since it coexist there and in a lot of other places) and nobody left Toril with its divinity intact (Waukeen left Toril as a super duper human but not as a deity). Meaning they all failed. I can try to fight a round against a professional martial artist and i would fail, miserably, the simple fact i tried doesn't reduce the skill, strength and proficiency of the martial artist. The fact many tried (who else? i only know of Mystra and the Waukeen and Lliira duo) and all failed it's further proof Ao locked things tight enough.
Now, we can start to argue the finer points, like what would have happened if Helm was cast away with the others? Who would have guarded the Celestial Staircase then? What if a coalition of deities succesfully punched through Helm, even briefly, maybe someone kept him busy while others run past him? What about multiple coordinated attacks with Helm forced to split in avatars? Would have he been able in avatar form to hold the line against more than one other deity? Who are the other "Ao's watchdogs" posted around the deities homeplanes that are hinted at in the same place of Faiths & Avatars?
Dazzlerdal, i'm sorry for all this off-topicness. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 14:36:16
Ahhh, but I also picture their being some sort of 'court' you can bring transgressions to - something akin to Marvel Comic's Living Tribunal.
It doesn't mean he was afraid of Ao, it means there is a system in-place and rules that must be followed. If I am in charge of the mail-room, and you are in-charge of special orders, and you fire an employee you don't like (and have them escorted off the premises), YES, I can hire that employee back to work for me in my dept., but that would be 'bad form'. It doesn't mean I can't do it, it just means I shouldn't. If anything, I think Celestian just having the ability to bypass Ao's mandate supports MY point - thanks for that.
And while we are on the subject - Mystra and several others all tried other means to ascend back into the Heavens. Doesn't that mean Ao has no direct control over deities, other then just giving them orders? Much like how a boss doesn't physically control us, they just tell us what to do. We have 'free will' to obey or disobey (but we mostly obey, because of the consequences, which goes right back to how I started this post). He couldn't force them to stay on Toril, and he couldn't even close-down these alternates routes back in - all he could do was dictate.
|
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 14:31:30
Im with you on all of that. Why else would everyone want to be a deity unless it allowed you lots of extra power and the added extra of being immortal and impossible to kill unless you go to the divine realm they dwell in (where they are at their most powerful) and kill them there.
As for the cosmic entities (ie gods on the outer planes that do not derive their power from direct worship in a single sphere), such as Asmodeus. I prefer the theory that the planes themselves have a sort of sentience.
I'm drawing here from bits about the Abyss, in which it favoured on of the ancient demons first as the prince of demons and invested that creature (mishka the wolf spider, or some queen of darkness) and then abandoned that creature favouring Demogorgon at a later date. There are rumblings that the tanar'ri and therefore demogorgon may well be abandoned for a new form of demon (loumara i think) at some point in the future.
This idea of a plane having its own sentience of a sort (determined by the majority of the believes of the prime dwellers and what they believe about the plane itself), works well. This plane then picks it's own paragons, rulers with godly power on that plane (and substantial power on others), that behave like a deity and grant spells etc, but are not worshipped directly and so if they were a god should have none.
Thats how i distinguish Asmodeus from the gods anyways. He isn't a primordial, he is a cosmic entity now, although he may have been a primordial previously that was elevated to godhood (as Ahriman) and cast down becoming a primordial again, who fled to the outer planes and was bestowed with limitless power by the planes of hell itself.
And i just read about Chauntea begging for warmth from Selune and Shar so that he/she could give life. So that means Chauntea may well have been a primordial at some point. A very large and powerful primordial (from which all life originally sprang since Chauntea was Toril itself) but which was limited by a lack of energy (and could probably only created shadowed creatures until the sun arrived. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 14:25:58
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For instance, I think when a being is 'in charge' of something, he is nearly all-powerful in relation to that. We usually call these 'portfolios'. Ao's portfolio is Realmsopace - he is the 'project manager' in charge of that particular sphere, and as such, the primordials must answer to him there. Outside of Realmspace, they may be able to 'kick his arse' for all we know - he has no power outside of the sphere (as far as we know).
I don't think this point is correct, and here's why: Celestian, the Oerth deity that helped Waukeen get off the Prime during the Time of Troubles, refused to carry Lliira too (that was traveling with Waukeen up to that point) on the basis that he would risk angering Ao by heping a friend (Waukeen) but wouldn't risk doubling his anger (smuggling away two goddesses) for someone he didn't know well (Lliira).
So it seems that Celestian at least believed that he would've attracted Ao's attention if he tried to help both goddesses and that was something he wasn't ready to risk for all that Waukeen and Lliira had to offer.
Meaning that he was afraid Ao would go b***h-slapping him on Oerth or force someone on Oerth to b***h-slap Celestian by proxy. That's something you can't do if you aren't powerful enough. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 14:08:42
I don't follow the story in Guide to Hell precisely, but I love it as allegory (such a great word for us to bend canon any which way we want).
I picture Lucifer's relation with Asmodeus as something similar to Jergal's relationship with FR's death gods. He is subordinate, but he will always be there. Someone always has to 'train the new guy'. Being subordinate, BTW (on cosmic levels) doesn't necessarily mean 'less powerful'.
For instance, I think when a being is 'in charge' of something, he is nearly all-powerful in relation to that. We usually call these 'portfolios'. Ao's portfolio is Realmsopace - he is the 'project manager' in charge of that particular sphere, and as such, the primordials must answer to him there. Outside of Realmspace, they may be able to 'kick his arse' for all we know - he has no power outside of the sphere (as far as we know).
Think of the multiverse as humongous corporation - lots of beings are 'all powerful' within their own, little 'sphere'. Outside of that, they have very little control. In fact - now that I think about it - 'deity' may be a way of obtaining extra power a being shouldn't have, by tapping-into souls (and spheres) not normally open to them. It like 'shmoozing at the watercooler' in those big corporations - you don't want to keep all your eggs in one basket, so you broaden your options. If 'downsizing' leaves you without a job, you got friends in other divisions.
So yeah, the universe is The Matrix, gods are the programmers, other outsiders are the tech guys, and we are just the power source.
Cthulhu/Cthon is the Trojan Virus.  |
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