| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 19 Jul 2013 : 10:24:50
Hello... A couple of questions about the Demi Liches
1) Can they remove their magic immunity, to cast beneficial spells on themselves? And likewise receive healing (inflict) spells from other subordinates?
2) If a level 25 wizard were to cast Shapechange and transform into a demi lich, would he/she receive or retain the "Trap the Soul" [SU] ability? And what would the save DC be?
3) Also during a said Shapechange, would the caster receive the +10 int, wis, cha that a normal lich gets when becoming a demi lich?
Thanks! |
| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 14:10:32
But still, you have to become a living creature, even if that creature is composed of energy or insubstantiality (because the form is alive and does have a form somewhere, even if ethereal, etc). Personally, I don't care what the RAW says, I wouldn't allow non-solid forms (the alieness would cause that sort of mental breakdown that sometimes happens when folks assume animal forms, and they can't revert back).
But if you choose to become undead, then you cause your own death, much like when you die in a dream. Its a 'system shock' thing, I would imagine - if your physical form becomes 'dead', then you are dead, end of story. The spell is incapable of returning you to life afterwards.
At least, thats how I see things going, and how I would handle it in my campaigns. YMMV |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 09:11:00
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
No, but most of the abilities possessed by undead can be harnessed with the proper necromancy spells. Like ghoul touch, vampiric touch, wail of the banshee, and others.
You CAN NOT use polymorph spells to assume the forms of undead, constructs, outsiders or elementals. Even polymorph any object only adds objects to the list of possible forms.
You CAN choose to turn into undead, permanently, by doing the appropiate research and performing the proper rituals.
Not entirely true...
quote:
You can become just about anything you are familiar with. You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action. For example, you are in combat and assume the form of a will-o’-wisp. When this form is no longer useful, you change into a stone golem and walk away. When pursued, you change into a flea, which hides on a horse until it can hop off. From there, you can become a dragon, an orc, or just about anything else you are familiar with.
.
Even ethereal and incorporeal forms can be assumed!
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| The Sage |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 03:14:44
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
Do belnorns have phylacteries?
No.
Baelnorns, traditionally, aren't "as disturbingly 'wrong' as the corrupt undead ... [...] Sustained by magic and granted life of a sort beyond nature, ... " [src:- Cormanthyr pg. 121]
Which suggests, to me at least, that the Baelnorns fall into a very different "life beyond death" category, when compared to human liches. So the requirement for a phylactery appears to be absent as a result. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 02:16:30
No, but most of the abilities possessed by undead can be harnessed with the proper necromancy spells. Like ghoul touch, vampiric touch, wail of the banshee, and others.
You CAN NOT use polymorph spells to assume the forms of undead, constructs, outsiders or elementals. Even polymorph any object only adds objects to the list of possible forms.
You CAN choose to turn into undead, permanently, by doing the appropiate research and performing the proper rituals. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 00:26:28
But there must be a spell that can transform or take on an undead form? |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 01:55:59
I think baelnorn are created by High Magic? I seem to recall a reference to it, perhaps in Cormanthyr supplement. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 28 Jul 2013 : 20:00:29
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
Do belnorns have phylacteries?
I just asked this recently in another thread, and from what I recall, the answer was 'no'.
Theory: Since a dead spirit needs to be anchored by something in the Prime Material (which is why Liches have phylactories), I would say that the Baelnorn - possessing its original form - needs no phylactory, because its spirit is housed in its now dead body (a person's body IS their phylactory - its their spirit's anchor to the material world).
A regular lich may not be in its original body - their bodies reform, and probably reformed the very first time they became a lich (although they may not even realize this).
You know whats even more frightening then a Demilich? A Demi Moore! Its steals men's souls, and has been known to 'cradle rob' on occasion. I personally think its some sort of dark fey, related to banshees.
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| Kyrel |
Posted - 28 Jul 2013 : 19:41:22
Personally I'd say that you couldn't Shapechange into neither a true Lich nor a Demi-Lich. Both things are Templates as I recall, and thus fall outside what Shapechange can offer. |
| jerrod |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 06:15:56
Do belnorns have phylacteries?
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| Ze |
Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 07:31:50
Sounds reasonable, Bladewind.
And George is right too - btw, wasn't lich a template as well in 3e? Or did this change in 4th ed? Banning all templates from what one is allowed to shapechange into, just makes sense to me.
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| Bladewind |
Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 05:57:25
I advocate reading 3.5's spells from the polymorph school un the most strict interpretation of the rules as written. This would include limiting the shapechange spell to the types listed in the 4th level polymorph spell (aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, and vermin). This would leave outsiders and undead out, which makes a lot more sense from both a lore and rules mechanic perspective. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 02:26:41
Demi-lich is a template used on a lich, so I'd rule that it is not a 'type' to be changed into.
You could turn into a lich, but not a demi-lich.
-- George Krashos
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| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 00:23:46
I thought about that, but an individual demilich is only unique in the same sense that an individual orc is unique.
In my post, I just meant that the abilities of an individual which differ from the norm wouldn't be granted by shapechange. The hypothetical demilich Tavvedarr might have a continuous unholy aura effect due to a nuance of the rituals he used to become a demilich. A PC who survives an encounter with Tavvedarr cannot use shapechange to mimic Tavvedarr; he would become a generic demilich based on the ELH entry (assuming he was familiar enough with demiliches to successfully complete the spell) and he wouldn't have the unholy aura power.
Yay for thinking while I type and ultimately murking up the thought.  |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 20:21:10
So... We are categorizing liches and demi liches as unique entities?
I kind of understand that they might be.
As for the lack of phylactory, I would say that as it is a temporary tranformation, one would not need it. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 00:27:07
I'm with Saxmilian. Creating a phylactery is part of completing a self-directed journey to lichdom... at least the most commonly understood of such journeys... but there are other ways of becoming a lich. Somebody like Velsharoon or Myrkul (and probably others) should be able to turn someone into a lich without a phylactery. That's speculation; point is just that there are often ways around the so-called requirements/limitations, and from the DM's perspective that's a good thing, for keeping players guessing. |
| Saxmilian |
Posted - 19 Jul 2013 : 23:12:38
Now see I would allow u to change into a demilich but since you haven't the Phalycery(?) to contain your soul if killed then your SOL and gone. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 19 Jul 2013 : 22:24:11
Thanks...
This was indeed a 3.5 discussion.
Any further comments will be well appriciated!!! |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Jul 2013 : 22:24:05
Given that becoming a lich of any kind requires the creation of a phylactery to contain your soul, I'd be inclined to make a ruling that you can't shapechange into a lich or demi-lich because you don't have the proper vessel. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 19 Jul 2013 : 17:37:43
This is all just my take on it. I don't have most of my books with me at the moment so I don't know page numbers to back it up.
1. Maybe. I think it was 2nd edition where the idea of "voluntarily failing a save" was officially talked about. Not sure if Magic Resistance had the same mechanic, but you should (with DM approval at least) be able to ignore your own magic resistance when voluntarily casting magic on yourself. However, lowering your own magic resistance (or negating immunity) to let another creature cast something on you is more iffy.
2. Maybe, at least in 3.5e. Shapechange changes your Type, and gives you all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the assumed form. The possible issue is that you cannot shapechange into the likeness of a unique creature. You can become a "generic" demilich, but not a particular one. So you wouldn't gain the abilities developed by an individual as part of its path to becoming a demilich... but you'd gain everything listed under demilich in the Monster Manual. Also, you would need to be "familiar" with demiliches, which --depending on the DM-- may be a difficult prerequisite.
3. Yes, if it's part of becoming a demilich.
Undoubtedly others will have more technical answers, based on edition. |
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