| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 19:49:24
Playing with alternative/parallel realms in my head, this idea is one of them...
What if the first Enclave of Nethril to return was not the dark city of Shade (I forget it's realms name), it was the bright city of Opus/Selunarra?
What effects would this have on the realms? Would they try to restore Nethril like the Shade? But using less invasive methods? How would it effect surrounding lands? How would it shift the balance between Shar and Mystra/Selune team up? Would it cause Shar to trigger the Spellplague earlier then before?
Thoughts, comments, constructive flames? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 14:42:55
Creating a mythallar is he standard by which all were judged... being able to create one is what made a powerful arcanist earn the term Archmage. For this reason, the ambitious would take the shortest route to success, I'd say. We know that Ioulamm's mythallar was the standard model. We also know that Karsus's 3 mythallars were the standard model. These were arguable the most creative archmages of Netheril in terms of expanding magical possibility (not just creating new spells). If they didn't think inventing a new mythallar was worth the effort then why would most others?
Further along that line of thought, why take the time to tell the story of an Archmage working to create an improved mythallar if that was not a rare occurrence? The other mythallars mentioned (in novels) were adapted by the writers to create a point of interest in the story, which is fine. I'd argue this makes them the exception, not the rule, however. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 23:14:32
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
From a more pragmatic standpoint, how would you entice more people - let alone the finest of craftsmen, the most prestigious scholars, the greatest minds - to populate your enclave instead of one of the thousands of other (already established) enclaves which float around? The same way you convince people that your car or fast food or brand of clothing is better than a competing product - you advertise some kind of innovation which sets your thingy apart from the others.
Innovation isn't the only thing that will appeal to people. The average crafter or scholar isn't going to give an osquip's behind if your mythallar does something better than Archmage Jho's mythallar -- they are going to want places to practice their trade that either pay well, offer certain freedoms/restrictions, give them the social life they want, or some combination thereof.
I'm not arguing that each mythallar was or wasn't different -- I'm just saying if you don't sling spells yourself, something that facilitates the use of magic isn't going to be as much of a draw to you.
The first guy who thought to link his mythallar with summon nymph and summon succubus spells very adequately drew a large number of male occupants. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 22:14:19
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I recall Finder and his little magical trinket made something of a big deal about this.
The finder's stone was referred to as an artifact, though it was never made clear what it could do before he tampered with it.
There was a spell in 2E called Steal Enchantment... I don't recall the source, but I'm wanting to say it was in the first Ruins of Undermountain boxed set. That spell made it possible to take the magical abilities from a magical item and put them into another item. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 21:52:47
quote:
Foxhelm
Who said you can't modify a mythallar later with a special spell, showing off the power of the Archwizard?
I suppose it's always possible to modify a mythallar; indeed, it could be argued that the Shadovar did exactly that when they "reactivated" the dormant Sakkors mythallar. We also have at least one canon example of an elven mythal being modified, even a few artifacts, so it seems like powerful enough magic can basically accomplish anything.
AD&D 2E game rules, overlapping 1E and 3E a little, basically made it difficult and very risky to modify existing magical items; most of the risk seemed concerned with the possible loss, damage, or degradation of existing magics. I think this notion influenced (or at least was never contradicted) by the Realmslore within all editions of FR novels. I recall Finder and his little magical trinket made something of a big deal about this.
More significantly, it seems evident that a 10th level wizard spell (or more likely, several of them) are involved in the construction of a mythallar; certainly an archwizard needs to achieve 20th level of experience and be able to cast 10th level arcs (spells) before endeavouring to construct this artifact. And as we all know, Mystra prohibited or at least restricted the use of magics exceeding 9th level. Yes, there are other forms of magic (Divine spellcasting, Quest spells, elven High Magic, True Dweomers, Shadow Magic, etc) which aren't necessarily limited in this fashion, but these are not the magics of the Nether Scrolls that were studied and used by Netherese arcanists who built these mythallars. |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 19:01:18
Who said you can't modify a mythallar later with a special spell, showing off the power of the Archwizard? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 18:48:03
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
From a more pragmatic standpoint, how would you entice more people - let alone the finest of craftsmen, the most prestigious scholars, the greatest minds - to populate your enclave instead of one of the thousands of other (already established) enclaves which float around? The same way you convince people that your car or fast food or brand of clothing is better than a competing product - you advertise some kind of innovation which sets your thingy apart from the others.
Innovation isn't the only thing that will appeal to people. The average crafter or scholar isn't going to give an osquip's behind if your mythallar does something better than Archmage Jho's mythallar -- they are going to want places to practice their trade that either pay well, offer certain freedoms/restrictions, give them the social life they want, or some combination thereof.
I'm not arguing that each mythallar was or wasn't different -- I'm just saying if you don't sling spells yourself, something that facilitates the use of magic isn't going to be as much of a draw to you. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 17:13:10
From a more pragmatic standpoint, how would you entice more people - let alone the finest of craftsmen, the most prestigious scholars, the greatest minds - to populate your enclave instead of one of the thousands of other (already established) enclaves which float around? The same way you convince people that your car or fast food or brand of clothing is better than a competing product - you advertise some kind of innovation which sets your thingy apart from the others. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 15:43:54
I agree with Ayrik. The Netherese always competed with each other, even with those whom they treated as friends. And innovation had somewhat been part of their mantra.
Would you be content copying the invention of your peers or would you make something better, something more remarkable to boost your reputation? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 22:36:49
Even with access to standardized components, "libraries", and building blocks - refined to their most elegant and efficient forms by many smart people over many hard years - it takes a certain kind of genius, ambition, and hypercompetence to construct an entire operating system or computing platform alone. Very few engineers or programmers could do such a thing alone (by today's standards), to build a dependable system on which lesser programmers can write apps that anybody (even children and idiots) can operate.
Archwizards - or aspiring archwizards - do have much support and competition from their peers. But superprojects like constructing a mythallar (and flying mountaintop enclave) are probably beyond the ability of common men, even beyond the abilities of somewhat unusual men able to attain the correct experience levels to cast the prerequisite spells. Not every musician is a Bach, not every physicist is a Hawking, not every artist is an Escher. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 17:59:07
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Dennis
There are probably a bunch of yet-unknown unique mythallars out there. Shadelorn's one of a kind, so is Sakkors's, which, given its nature to "prey" on sentient beings, can be altered to control and empower magical beasts within, say, two-mile radius.
I would carry this one step further and say that every mythallar is unique, since each archwizard would need to independently discover/invent the methods and principles involved. Call it a "white room engineering" approach if you prefer - operational specifications are decided in advance, engineering choices (costs/tradeoffs in labour, materials, time, energy, and other resources) are then carefully manipulated to best meet projected expectations.
I also think that (would-be) archwizards would each want to express something personal in his mythallar as a way to advertise and distinguish his capabilities among his peers, especially given the strong personalities and accomplishments of their most famous contemporaries.
We know this wasn't the case from Netheril, Empire of Magic. There were schools that taught the method of creation of Mythallars, in Ioulamm's Enclave and Karsus' at the very least. I'd expect that most mythallars were the same. Created using the same means as the original. Only the greatest Archwizards, or ones who specialized with new forms of magic (like shadow magic, for example) would take the time to re-invent to wheel and create a mythallar that strayed from the norm.
Look at it this way, what is the fastest way to power for a spellcaster. Learning spells from another's spellbook or taking the time to painstakingly recreate every spell you've heard of through experimentation, trial and error. Very few wizards ever get to the point where they have mastered enough of the spells others have created to enter into the point of their career where they re-create these spells in their own way.
Here's the difference as I see it. Compare somewhat spellcasting to programming in computer languages. Initially, everyone was developing their own source code and everyone's worked different. Then, they started developing standards, and they developed subroutines that started getting shared. For low level spells, these are likely comparable to these sub-routines. Occasionally, someone may attempt to recreate them (and thus we may have variations of magic missile, etc...), but not often. Meanwhile, the upper levels of spellcasting are comparable to people trying to build their own programs based upon previously learned sub-routines. The more widespread the spell, the more likely its become "standardized and packaged".... such that most everyone's meteor swarm is likely the same/similar. The less common and secretly held, the more likely that each version of the spell is slightly different.... even if its the same spell. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 17:51:51
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The proverb says you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, or perhaps ye can't train a wizard without breaking a few wands, or something like that ...
I always heard it as
"You can't make an omelette without ruthlessly crushing dozens of eggs beneath your steel boot, then publicly disemboweling the chickens that laid them as a warning to others"
Quote - Tarquin, Order of the Stick |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 16:41:16
In part I disagree, TMM, and say we don't know mythallars were standardized. True, Arcane Ages: Netheril, Empire of Magic is basically the definitive heart of published Netheril canon. But the only actual examples of mythallars and mythals detailed elsewhere are each special and unusual in some way; not a single one has even the basic appearance given for the "standard model" published in Netheril. Given this contradiction, I'm more inclined to believe that mythallars are somewhat variable and each is essentially unique - especially since the usual auctorial inflation suggests that any "new" mythallars we see published in future Realmslore are likely to each be more dazzling and penultimately potent and somehow sinister than any mythallars described before. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 00:14:51
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Dennis
There are probably a bunch of yet-unknown unique mythallars out there. Shadelorn's one of a kind, so is Sakkors's, which, given its nature to "prey" on sentient beings, can be altered to control and empower magical beasts within, say, two-mile radius.
I would carry this one step further and say that every mythallar is unique, since each archwizard would need to independently discover/invent the methods and principles involved. Call it a "white room engineering" approach if you prefer - operational specifications are decided in advance, engineering choices (costs/tradeoffs in labour, materials, time, energy, and other resources) are then carefully manipulated to best meet projected expectations.
I also think that (would-be) archwizards would each want to express something personal in his mythallar as a way to advertise and distinguish his capabilities among his peers, especially given the strong personalities and accomplishments of their most famous contemporaries.
We know this wasn't the case from Netheril, Empire of Magic. There were schools that taught the method of creation of Mythallars, in Ioulamm's Enclave and Karsus' at the very least. I'd expect that most mythallars were the same. Created using the same means as the original. Only the greatest Archwizards, or ones who specialized with new forms of magic (like shadow magic, for example) would take the time to re-invent to wheel and create a mythallar that strayed from the norm.
Look at it this way, what is the fastest way to power for a spellcaster. Learning spells from another's spellbook or taking the time to painstakingly recreate every spell you've heard of through experimentation, trial and error. Very few wizards ever get to the point where they have mastered enough of the spells others have created to enter into the point of their career where they re-create these spells in their own way. |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 23:09:06
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Dennis
There are probably a bunch of yet-unknown unique mythallars out there. Shadelorn's one of a kind, so is Sakkors's, which, given its nature to "prey" on sentient beings, can be altered to control and empower magical beasts within, say, two-mile radius.
I would carry this one step further and say that every mythallar is unique, since each archwizard would need to independently discover/invent the methods and principles involved. Call it a "white room engineering" approach if you prefer - operational specifications are decided in advance, engineering choices (costs/tradeoffs in labour, materials, time, energy, and other resources) are then carefully manipulated to best meet projected expectations.
I also think that (would-be) archwizards would each want to express something personal in his mythallar as a way to advertise and distinguish his capabilities among his peers, especially given the strong personalities and accomplishments of their most famous contemporaries.
Of course the same could be said for Mythal, especially elven ones as they spend lifetime researching their builds.
Even the generic magic items like a "Wand of Fireballs" are likely unique as the wizard might spin things like colour or visuals of the fireball, changing the element or even personalizing the physical wand itself.
This was before Ford Convayer belt Standardization where one part is the same as all other parts. Everything made is relatively unique as they are all handmade. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 22:27:51
quote:
Dennis
There are probably a bunch of yet-unknown unique mythallars out there. Shadelorn's one of a kind, so is Sakkors's, which, given its nature to "prey" on sentient beings, can be altered to control and empower magical beasts within, say, two-mile radius.
I would carry this one step further and say that every mythallar is unique, since each archwizard would need to independently discover/invent the methods and principles involved. Call it a "white room engineering" approach if you prefer - operational specifications are decided in advance, engineering choices (costs/tradeoffs in labour, materials, time, energy, and other resources) are then carefully manipulated to best meet projected expectations.
I also think that (would-be) archwizards would each want to express something personal in his mythallar as a way to advertise and distinguish his capabilities among his peers, especially given the strong personalities and accomplishments of their most famous contemporaries. |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 18:15:48
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
I can see them restore it like the Shade, since restoring the desert to life is neither Evil nor Good in the grand schemes of things.
When the shades restored Anauroch they caused great havoc in other kingdoms due to drastic weather changes.
Yes, but restoration is not evil. Letting the problems coming with Climate Realignment harm others might be. The Netherese had the ability to work with others to restore their lands while minimizing the harm on other kings as much as possible. The difference is as the Shades don't care about other kings due to both religion and government philosophies, Selunarra has the religions of at least Selune and Mystryl/Mystra which would influence them to cause least harm and they were more an entertainment/scholarship Enclave then the experimental Enclave of the Shades. And wiping out their source of audiences and research is a bad thing. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 14:55:53
Yes, because they melted the High Ice. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 14:52:00
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
I can see them restore it like the Shade, since restoring the desert to life is neither Evil nor Good in the grand schemes of things.
When the shades restored Anauroch they caused great havoc in other kingdoms due to drastic weather changes. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 Mar 2013 : 14:17:57
There are probably a bunch of yet-unknown unique mythallars out there. Shadelorn's one of a kind, so is Sakkors's, which, given its nature to "prey" on sentient beings, can be altered to control and empower magical beasts within, say, two-mile radius. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 13:24:04
An excerpt from Netheril Empire of Magic:
"In 3215, the Crown of Horns was discovered by the eager archwizard Shadelorn who was trying to unlock the key to creating a more powerful mythallar (a project that Ioulaum had abandoned years earlier). After numerous attempts, he finally succeeded in 3517.
Up through this time, the archwizard Shenandra had been working on a spell to counteract the phaerimms life drain and magic drain spells. After numerous failures, she succeeded in creating a counter spell that simply negated the phaerimms magic during the fall months of 3517.
Shadelorns research had been altered by the Crown of Horns, that now wanted revenge for its defeat years earlier. At the same time that Shenandra cried out in joy at her success, Shadelorn activated his new improved mythallar. Its activation absorbed all magical items, memorized spells, and continuous spell effects within a 20-mile radius of Shadowtop Borough. Arcanists whose lives had been extended through magic found themselves reduced to ashes by the improved mythallars effects. And Shadowtop Borough crashed into the Janick River."
Basically, its an anti-magic Mythallar. Cool I think :), also it would be the ultimate weapon in a war against the Netherese. Find some way to transport it without touching it or using magic, and deliver it to the Enclave = Big Crash. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 04:23:42
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I'd say a tangent to this would be Ed's most recent answer on Ask Ed. According to Ed (therefore its cannon) there are at least 12 mythallars still active in the Realms. Even if you include Sakkors and Shade that leaves 10 more out there somewhere. The two I've decided are most likely are Larloch's (in Warloch's Crypt) and the special modified mythallar of Shadelorn.
Shadelorn? I am not familiar with this one.
The Neverwinter campaign book has another flying enclave out there, though it's not really given all that much detail -- so we don't know if it's mythallar was still active, was repaired, or if it's held aloft thru some other means. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 04:20:54
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Selūnarrans (?) returning to Faerūn would probably bring along an aggressive agenda to restore old Netheril which doesn't differ greatly from the Shadovar agenda.
I'd think that if that was their agenda, they would have been seeking a way back already.
I don't think Selūne would allow a bunch of would-be conquerers to live in her realm for centuries. It doesn't fit her alignment or her ethos.
That's part of why I see them as I described them: if they come back, they'll be looking to make a place for themselves, but they're not going to be doing the "This place was ours sixteen centuries ago, GET OUT!" routine that Shade is doing. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 02:04:11
I'd say a tangent to this would be Ed's most recent answer on Ask Ed. According to Ed (therefore its cannon) there are at least 12 mythallars still active in the Realms. Even if you include Sakkors and Shade that leaves 10 more out there somewhere. The two I've decided are most likely are Larloch's (in Warloch's Crypt) and the special modified mythallar of Shadelorn. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Mar 2013 : 20:46:32
I'll agree wholeheartedly on sidestepping the usual digression towards "what is canon?" arguments ...
Exploring ideas, then:
Would Opus require Sakkors, a second floating-city platform?
Would Opus engage in "terraforming" old Netheril (which would cause the same environmental disasters Shade caused)? Or would they seize productive land possessed by someone else? Or would they be content with other arrangements which leave them dependant upon external forces for all their food and basic supplies?
Silly Shades shoulda sought out some drow. A combination of controllable shadows and subterranean agriculture (plus the opportunity to meet like-minded evil bastards like drow and duergar) seems win-win to me. |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 19:27:28
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
In response to the OP, I think the citizens (and leaders) of Opus are not quite as singularly pure, radiant, and "good" as people readily believe. Just as the citizens (and leaders) of Shade are not quite as dark, nasty, and "evil" as cursory appearances might suggest.
Selūnarrans (?) returning to Faerūn would probably bring along an aggressive agenda to restore old Netheril which doesn't differ greatly from the Shadovar agenda. The proverb says you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, or perhaps ye can't train a wizard without breaking a few wands, or something like that ... resurrecting a dead civilization would involve construction, deconstruction, destruction, blood, magic, gold, and steel on epic scales no matter's who's installed as the mastermind and grand puppeteer.
For instance ... would Opus choose to reactivate the mythallar of sunken Sakkors? And how would they approach this objective if, as indicated through canon, the only practical method of doing so happens to involve the (unwilling?) cooperation of a psionic cambion sired by Mephistopheles? How would a priestess/exarch/Chosen of waxing and waning Selūne be able to combat the machinations of Shar/Mask/Lathander and stab the heart of the Shadowstorm?
Not saying they would be pure, but they would be less likely to have the same moral view as the Shade. Which also alters Canon, since the first alteration of Canon in the OP would lead to changing of Canon onwards.
It is the difference between Realms books and Realms Adventures. A novel from it's structure can only have one canon result. A game like an adventure can have multiples storylines which can all be canon, given the story arc of the adventure.
Like how in The Elder Scrolls, there was one game where multiple forces fought on multiples side of a war. When the sequels come out, they had to figure out how to either exclude all but one ending or make it so all possible results could occur (Which given it's a fantasy setting, occurred by have magic Warp things).
So it would be expected all the events to occur after RotAW would be different in this Realms, since Opus replaces Shade. In which ways... I am interested in hearing ideas... |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 19:07:31
In response to the OP, I think the citizens (and leaders) of Opus are not quite as singularly pure, radiant, and "good" as people readily believe. Just as the citizens (and leaders) of Shade are not quite as dark, nasty, and "evil" as cursory appearances might suggest.
Selūnarrans (?) returning to Faerūn would probably bring along an aggressive agenda to restore old Netheril which doesn't differ greatly from the Shadovar agenda. The proverb says you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, or perhaps ye can't train a wizard without breaking a few wands, or something like that ... resurrecting a dead civilization would involve construction, deconstruction, destruction, blood, magic, gold, and steel on epic scales no matter's who's installed as the mastermind and grand puppeteer.
For instance ... would Opus choose to reactivate the mythallar of sunken Sakkors? And how would they approach this objective if, as indicated through canon, the only practical method of doing so happens to involve the (unwilling?) cooperation of a psionic cambion sired by Mephistopheles? How would a priestess/exarch/Chosen of waxing and waning Selūne be able to combat the machinations of Shar/Mask/Lathander and stab the heart of the Shadowstorm? |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 16:44:49
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'm almost inclined to agree. Almost. Yes, he's an old-fashioned, hardcore Netherese archwizard who believes that gods are mere empowered archmages. I wasn't saying he'd be pledging devotion to Shar. That's too much to ask of him, especially now that he knew it was Shar's very command that killed his wife. No, not devotion, but bargain. He himself witnessed and admitted how Shar, through Rivalen, helped their city survive the hostile environment that was the Plane of Shadow. If one day Shade faces an enemy that would be too difficult to deal with, and if Shar offers a helping hand (for a price, of course), then Telamont might agree to it, albeit begrudgingly. Though (and this is pure conjecture based on everything we've read so far) he probably has a very thorough and detailed plan to exact revenge for taking away the only woman he loved. And it could be something that involves both Rivalen and (the not-so-dead) Mask.
I'd go with that. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 16:24:44
I'm almost inclined to agree. Almost. Yes, he's an old-fashioned, hardcore Netherese archwizard who believes that gods are mere empowered archmages. I wasn't saying he'd be pledging devotion to Shar. That's too much to ask of him, especially now that he knew it was Shar's very command that killed his wife. No, not devotion, but bargain. He himself witnessed and admitted how Shar, through Rivalen, helped their city survive the hostile environment that was the Plane of Shadow. If one day Shade faces an enemy that would be too difficult to deal with, and if Shar offers a helping hand (for a price, of course), then Telamont might agree to it, albeit begrudgingly. Though (and this is pure conjecture based on everything we've read so far) he probably has a very thorough and detailed plan to exact revenge for taking away the only woman he loved. And it could be something that involves both Rivalen and (the not-so-dead) Mask. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 16:09:58
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Masked Mage made a good point. Telamont doesn't tolerate disobedience. However, given the current situation---Brennus's undying determination to kill Rivalen no matter the cost---one way or another, he himself would have to pick a side. It's fair to assume he'd make good with his promise to Brennus that if he told his brothers of Rivalen's matricide, Telamont would kill him himself. But Brennus had always been Alashar's favorite, and it's possible that through Brennus, Telamont sees his late wife, whom he truly loved. Or all of that wouldn't matter, if what Telamont really cares about is rebuilding Netheril and conquering the world. But is it really the only thing he cares about? Is he as cold-blooded as he lets people think him to be?
Foxhelm, you're right. Telamont might seek Shar's protection against enemies he himself might have great trouble dealing with. But Shar for him has always been just a means, and never a goal in itself. Unlike his son Rivalen, whose goal is Shar. True, he once was able to reconcile his duties as a prince and as a Nightseer by stopping the Shadowstorm, but how long can he keep it up? Someday, one of those dual responsibilities would require to be chosen ove the other. And which of the two will he choose? Well, I suppose his matricide already speaks for itself.
I don't think he'd turn to Shar to do any more than pay her lip service. Like Karsus he's one of the Netherese that believes himself to be basically a god, and devotion to a deity just doesn't jive with that. |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 15:36:42
I move the argument to another thread.
Still it reminds me of the last issue of Dragon. A fight between the top archmages of the Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance was in the final paragraph came down to this idea: Which ever wizard can get the collective cheap shot in wins. Same here. |
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