| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Imp |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 22:48:47
I'd like to know: how likely would it be for Graz'zt and Malcanthet to have a child together?
I know they hate each other, but they didn't always. Graz'zt actually lusted after her, so before she completely shot him down, they could have some time of wild fun. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Jakk |
Posted - 25 Feb 2012 : 22:23:21
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
<snip>
Tiamet created the first scorpionmen (RW mythology) so I linked their creation (in DR - the T'lincalis) with her and Lolth - they had a schism in Maztica, and Maztican Drow worshiped Tiamet for a time (and some still might). Ergo, my Maztican drow are a LOT like Eberron Drow, and this dichotomy with the gods and 'their' drow also helps explain the similarities between the T'lincalis and the Drider (also, that T'lin means something akin to 'unfaithful' in drowish - their is a city called T'lindhet in Underdark)
I try to use etymology in my stuff as much as possible. 
I love this... and I agree on the etymology point, but you probably already figured that out with my Driz'zt-Graz'zt reference earlier in this scroll. And the drow city of T'lindhet is referenced back in 2E, if not earlier; it might be an "original Ed" dark elf city name. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 21:52:08
I must have typed that fast - there are someparts that are a bit rushed and confusing (I try to edit myself, but then I don't like all the stuff I have to leave out).
The tablets were a total of 21,000 years - there was a 1000 years of history on each (a single generation for an Eladrin/Gray Elf).
Tiamet created the first scorpionmen (RW mythology) so I linked their creation (in DR - the T'lincalis) with her and Lolth - they had a schism in Maztica, and Maztican Drow worshiped Tiamet for a time (and some still might). Ergo, my Maztican drow are a LOT like Eberron Drow, and this dichotomy with the gods and 'their' drow also helps explain the similarities between the T'lincalis and the Drider (also, that T'lin means something akin to 'unfaithful' in drowish - their is a city called T'lindhet in Underdark)
I try to use etymology in my stuff as much as possible. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 08:23:51
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was working on that, in the form of ancient Elven/Fey texts discovered in the Drow vaults of Kule (a planet in greyspace). I was framing in the same style (and with the same NPC) as the rest of my Elven Netbook articles - he himself was a Drow from Kule. Part of the back-story was that although reminiscent of modern High Drow (which is related to Elven Hamarfae), the texts had been indecipherable for tousands of years. A centaur scholar (traveling with dracons) happened to have been marooned (the ship had trouble) on Kule, and through a strange twist of fate was able to read Gęlvyan (High Sylvan - the language of Fey nobility, or Le'Shay).
They were called The Tablets of Destiny¹, and contained a history of the Eladrin people in Faerie. Parts were missing or obscured (I did this on purpose in order to gloss-over parts).
They told the tale of two brothers, twins in fact - Cor'Ellion the fair, and Teylas, called Gru-Maas, which meant 'wild spirit' in Sylvan (the common tongue of the Feywild) - born from their mother the Faerie Queen, Titania, but with two different fathers. Cor'Ellion's father was Frey, Lord of Light Elves in Vanaheim, and Gru-Maas was the child Malkith², called the Albino Prince, who ruled in Svartįlfar. Titania and Aurilana were sisters (twins were very common amongst the Fey, back then), and all Fey worshiped Danu, a primal spirit (Obyrith), in those ancient times (amongst other primordial powers). Malkith also had relations with Pale Night, another Primal Spirit, who in the form of a dark (Unseelie) fey gave birth to Graas and Auraushnee (making Lolth and Gruumsh half-siblings, unknown to them). Pale Night also gave birth to others while in this form, but their stories are for another day.
That was the basic gist of it, or at least, how it began, and it detailed 1000 years of Elven history on each 21 tablets (but the final two tablets were missing, and perhaps one other). Hopefully I can get back to it some day. That was actually 'Part III' of my over-cosmoloigy (the first part having to do with the creation of the universe, the Great wheel, and the Planes, and second the War in the heavens, the fall of Ahriman, and the Sundering of the True World). Each part was only partially complete - it was the basis of my 'theory of everything (D&D)' project.
I borrow from Mesopotamian and Vedic mythology heavily for the early stuff, and then work my way into the 'lesser' mythologies (Norse, Pharonic, Mediterranean, Celtic - which is actually part of the fey pantheon, etc). I also have it where Baast is responsible for the Rakshasa - she is also a primal spirit, along with Set - they are ancient enemies.
¹ Similar, and related to, the Sumerian Tablet of Destinies, which are tied-into Tiamet, who is also very important in my proto-cosmology.
²I like Malkith as Malkizid - I will use that, if its okay with you. I've already tweaked my theory (I had it where Malkith was called 'the dark prince', but that doesn't fit with Malkizid.
Sorry; lost track of this scroll for a while. This is fascinating stuff... and you've clearly done a heck of a lot of research on RW myth... I thought I was well-versed on the subject, but you've convinced me that I need to do a lot more reading on the topic. By all means, use anything I post; I'm probably using a lot more of your ideas at this point than vice-versa, and if I had anything I didn't want to share, I wouldn't be describing it here. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Feb 2012 : 01:26:29
I was working on that, in the form of ancient Elven/Fey texts discovered in the Drow vaults of Kule (a planet in greyspace). I was framing in the same style (and with the same NPC) as the rest of my Elven Netbook articles - he himself was a Drow from Kule. Part of the back-story was that although reminiscent of modern High Drow (which is related to Elven Hamarfae), the texts had been indecipherable for tousands of years. A centaur scholar (traveling with dracons) happened to have been marooned (the ship had trouble) on Kule, and through a strange twist of fate was able to read Gęlvyan (High Sylvan - the language of Fey nobility, or Le'Shay).
They were called The Tablets of Destiny¹, and contained a history of the Eladrin people in Faerie. Parts were missing or obscured (I did this on purpose in order to gloss-over parts).
They told the tale of two brothers, twins in fact - Cor'Ellion the fair, and Teylas, called Gru-Maas, which meant 'wild spirit' in Sylvan (the common tongue of the Feywild) - born from their mother the Faerie Queen, Titania, but with two different fathers. Cor'Ellion's father was Frey, Lord of Light Elves in Vanaheim, and Gru-Maas was the child Malkith², called the Albino Prince, who ruled in Svartįlfar. Titania and Aurilana were sisters (twins were very common amongst the Fey, back then), and all Fey worshiped Danu, a primal spirit (Obyrith), in those ancient times (amongst other primordial powers). Malkith also had relations with Pale Night, another Primal Spirit, who in the form of a dark (Unseelie) fey gave birth to Graas and Auraushnee (making Lolth and Gruumsh half-siblings, unknown to them). Pale Night also gave birth to others while in this form, but their stories are for another day.
That was the basic gist of it, or at least, how it began, and it detailed 1000 years of Elven history on each 21 tablets (but the final two tablets were missing, and perhaps one other). Hopefully I can get back to it some day. That was actually 'Part III' of my over-cosmoloigy (the first part having to do with the creation of the universe, the Great wheel, and the Planes, and second the War in the heavens, the fall of Ahriman, and the Sundering of the True World). Each part was only partially complete - it was the basis of my 'theory of everything (D&D)' project.
I borrow from Mesopotamian and Vedic mythology heavily for the early stuff, and then work my way into the 'lesser' mythologies (Norse, Pharonic, Mediterranean, Celtic - which is actually part of the fey pantheon, etc). I also have it where Baast is responsible for the Rakshasa - she is also a primal spirit, along with Set - they are ancient enemies.
¹ Similar, and related to, the Sumerian Tablet of Destinies, which are tied-into Tiamet, who is also very important in my proto-cosmology.
²I like Malkith as Malkizid - I will use that, if its okay with you. I've already tweaked my theory (I had it where Malkith was called 'the dark prince', but that doesn't fit with Malkizid. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 22:56:34
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was thinking Lolth could be his mom - some long-lost 'love child', but then I realized Pale Night is supposed to be his mother.
Drow originated in GH (from a meta-game standpoint), so it would make some sense if Grazzt - or his lineage - began there as well. However, since I personally think that Drow were all created by the Descent Curse (which happened on Toril), it would not make much sense for him to be one of Lolth's children (Lolth started out as a 'dark' Elf, not a Drow - they came MUCH later).
So now I'm thinking that Lolth and Graz'zt are siblings, which would mean Pale Knight would be Lolth's mother (kewl, right?  ). Think about it - Pale knight is supposedly some sort of 'proto-fiend' (a primordial?), and BOTH Lolth and Graz'zt are on-again, off-again demons.
Which means Maelkith (King of the ancient dark elves, canon from Marvel comics, not D&D) could still be the father - he sleeps with an 'ancient evil' (Pale Night), and at least two children are born.
Mark... what if Maelkith is Malkizid? The names are close enough... just a thought. I wonder what that would look like in the Realms powers genealogy...
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now, I have theorized that Titania and the QoA&D (Auril in 4e) are both daughters of the primordial power Danu (who happens to be both a Celtic and Vedic deity - convenient for a proto-power, no?). That means Pale Night and Danu could be one and the same, or even siblings themselves, making Corellon and Araushnee (Lolth) cousins - but most of the RW deities are related in some manner, and these would be considered 'archtypes' (ancient powers from the time of the Creator Races).
Just more ramblings from the deeper recesses of my mind; make of it what you want.
Mark, I know that much has been lost here... but did you ever have an inter-pantheonic genealogy of any sort done up? I have the Norse pantheon 99% charted and the Greek pantheon (including heroes) probably about 75% charted (it's significantly bigger, at least as far as my available sources go). I also have a skeletal genealogy for the core Faerunian pantheon, and your comments on this subject are inspiring me to attempt to combine the genealogies... to repeat my question, is this something you've done in the past? |
| Jakk |
Posted - 13 Feb 2012 : 22:48:34
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Homebrew:
'zt is a suffix in abyssal, meaning 'traitor'. However, to them, this isn't necessarily a bad thing (it has a more 'clever opportunist' bent to it).
'High' Drow (which is distantly related to Hamarfae - both have Fey as a parent-language) has adopted many terms from Abyssal, due to Lolth's long establishment as a 'Demon Queen'. Hence, the suffix 'zt has come into their language, meaning something akin to 'clever betrayer'.
Thus, Drizzt's birth-name was Driz Do'Urden - he himself barely remembers this, because he has born the Driz'zt monicker (proudly) for so long.
Now apply this to Graz'zt's history. 
 I like... no, I love this... I will definitely be using this. Many thanks, Mark! |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 19:47:20
I like "zt" as an Abyssal suffix meaning "traitor." I decree that this is so.
(Darn, now if only I actually ran WotC. Hmm. Well, maybe I'll have to put it in a book somewhere.)
Wait, what was I saying? Oh right.
Graz'zt (my favorite ex-devil/now-demon prince) does indeed have a LOT of chillins. One of them is even in the Realms, after all. In my writing. Ahem!
Cheers |
| Zireael |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 19:03:58
quote:
I was thinking Lolth could be his mom - some long-lost 'love child', but then I realized Pale Night is supposed to be his mother.
Drow originated in GH (from a meta-game standpoint), so it would make some sense if Grazzt - or his lineage - began there as well. However, since I personally think that Drow were all created by the Descent Curse (which happened on Toril), it would not make much sense for him to be one of Lolth's children (Lolth started out as a 'dark' Elf, not a Drow - they came MUCH later).
So now I'm thinking that Lolth and Graz'zt are siblings, which would mean Pale Knight would be Lolth's mother (kewl, right? ). Think about it - Pale knight is supposedly some sort of 'proto-fiend' (a primordial?), and BOTH Lolth and Graz'zt are on-again, off-again demons.
This is awesome!!!! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 03:52:15
Yeah
Soooooooo... thats all you got out of that? I must be losing my touch.  |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 16:24:13
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Homebrew:
'zt is a prefix in abyssal, meaning 'traitor'. However, to them, this isn't necessarily a bad thing (it has a more 'clever opportunist' bent to it).
'High' Drow (which is distantly related to Hamarfae - both have Fey as a parent-language) has adopted many terms from Abyssal, due to Lolth's long establishment as a 'Demon Queen'. Hence, the prefix 'zt has come into their language, meaning something akin to 'clever betrayer'.
Thus, Drizzt's birth-name was Driz Do'Urden - he himself barely remembers this, because he has born the Driz'zt monicker (proudly) for so long.
Now apply this to Graz'zt's history.
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Kilvan: The drow are a fairly old race, but you're right about many demon lords and archdevils being far older than that. As far as Graz'zt in particular, I don't have enough information close at hand to check this (if such lore has ever been published to begin with).
I think it is canon he was around before Asmodeus fell from Heaven. 4e revealed him as a devil first THEN a demon lord.
HOWEVER, according to Guide to Hell, Asmodeus is an aspect of Ahriman, who has been 'trapped in hell' since the creation of the Planes (the Great Wheel). That would make his fall predate the Godwar, even (which I think was also the start of the Bloodwar). His fall was part of the creation of the (current) universal structure.
Which is interesting, in retrospect - Asmodeus is now a 'big bad' in 4e, and the planer structure (Great Wheel) has fallen apart. Apparently, he has escaped his prison.
Suffix? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 15:55:40
Homebrew:
'zt is a suffix in abyssal, meaning 'traitor'. However, to them, this isn't necessarily a bad thing (it has a more 'clever opportunist' bent to it).
'High' Drow (which is distantly related to Hamarfae - both have Fey as a parent-language) has adopted many terms from Abyssal, due to Lolth's long establishment as a 'Demon Queen'. Hence, the suffix 'zt has come into their language, meaning something akin to 'clever betrayer'.
Thus, Drizzt's birth-name was Driz Do'Urden - he himself barely remembers this, because he has born the Driz'zt monicker (proudly) for so long.
Now apply this to Graz'zt's history.
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Kilvan: The drow are a fairly old race, but you're right about many demon lords and archdevils being far older than that. As far as Graz'zt in particular, I don't have enough information close at hand to check this (if such lore has ever been published to begin with).
I think it is canon he was around before Asmodeus fell from Heaven. 4e revealed him as a devil first THEN a demon lord.
HOWEVER, according to Guide to Hell, Asmodeus is an aspect of Ahriman, who has been 'trapped in hell' since the creation of the Planes (the Great Wheel). That would make his fall predate the Godwar, even (which I think was also the start of the Bloodwar). His fall was part of the creation of the (current) universal structure.
Which is interesting, in retrospect - Asmodeus is now a 'big bad' in 4e, and the planer structure (Great Wheel) has fallen apart. Apparently, he has escaped his prison. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 13:40:37
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Kilvan: The drow are a fairly old race, but you're right about many demon lords and archdevils being far older than that. As far as Graz'zt in particular, I don't have enough information close at hand to check this (if such lore has ever been published to begin with).
I think it is canon he was around before Asmodeus fell from Heaven. 4e revealed him as a devil first THEN a demon lord. |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 02:40:09
quote:
Originally posted by Imp
Dragon #353. Malcanthet is described as one of the first succubi that were spontanously spawned by the Abyss. It's not important if she was first or tenth. She was created by the Abyss itself. Many DMs definitely have their own homebrewed myths, but we know how it went.
Absolutely true, but that doesn't invalidate any of my earlier posts, or Markustay's idea (quite the opposite, in fact). It's not important, thus it is still possible to have both demonic and diabolic succubi. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 02:03:09
I just had another thought... this one far less than serious... about another possible child of Graz'zt... what if the proper spelling is Driz'zt? IIRC, this is how it was originally spelled, with the apostrophe being dropped after the first trilogy... but I might be guilty of wishful thinking there. Either way, it would fit with Graz'zt being a drow originally... but I'll leave that one alone for the moment.
Kilvan: The drow are a fairly old race, but you're right about many demon lords and archdevils being far older than that. As far as Graz'zt in particular, I don't have enough information close at hand to check this (if such lore has ever been published to begin with). |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 17:03:20
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Maybe he started out as a drow... that would explain his appearance (which means nothing, I know) and the fact that his general is his son by a dark elf.
That's an awesome idea, y'know!
Isn't he much, much older than the drows themselves? Maybe even more than the dark elves. I dunno, at some point, the origin (past) of such a character isn't of much importance compared to simply his current status (present) and ambitions (future). It is an interesting exercise though. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 17:00:54
I was thinking Lolth could be his mom - some long-lost 'love child', but then I realized Pale Night is supposed to be his mother.
Drow originated in GH (from a meta-game standpoint), so it would make some sense if Grazzt - or his lineage - began there as well. However, since I personally think that Drow were all created by the Descent Curse (which happened on Toril), it would not make much sense for him to be one of Lolth's children (Lolth started out as a 'dark' Elf, not a Drow - they came MUCH later).
So now I'm thinking that Lolth and Graz'zt are siblings, which would mean Pale Knight would be Lolth's mother (kewl, right? ). Think about it - Pale knight is supposedly some sort of 'proto-fiend' (a primordial?), and BOTH Lolth and Graz'zt are on-again, off-again demons.
Which means Maelkith (King of the ancient dark elves, canon from Marvel comics, not D&D) could still be the father - he sleeps with an 'ancient evil' (Pale Night), and at least two children are born.
Now, I have theorized that Titania and the QoA&D (Auril in 4e) are both daughters of the primordial power Danu (who happens to be both a Celtic and Vedic deity - convenient for a proto-power, no?). That means Pale Night and Danu could be one and the same, or even siblings themselves, making Corellon and Araushnee (Lolth) cousins - but most of the RW deities are related in some manner, and these would be considered 'archtypes' (ancient powers from the time of the Creator Races).
Just more ramblings from the deeper recesses of my mind; make of it what you want. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 15:35:52
quote:
Maybe he started out as a drow... that would explain his appearance (which means nothing, I know) and the fact that his general is his son by a dark elf.
That's an awesome idea, y'know! |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 01:16:01
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I also like the Sage's idea that the Lady of Pain is Rule-of-Three's mother...
There's really nothing in canon that explains it. I just like playing around with unexpected theories and such -- especially when it comes to the Lady of Pain. That, and the razor-vine bit that I spoke of earlier.
quote:
... of course, I know very little about RoT to begin with, so I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here. Clearly I need to re-read some of my older sources... which means getting them moved closer to me somehow...
See Uncaged: The Faces of Sigil. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 22:53:50
quote:
Originally posted by Imp
quote:
His dark elf son, Athux, leads Graz'zt's demonic army, while his daughter Thraxxia serves as a private assassin. His son Arzial, the Blooded Baron, serves him as a vassal. Other children of Graz'zt include Belyara and Rule-of-Three.
Rule-of-Three is his child, but it doesn't say who is the mother.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Graz'zt was a devil first.
Well...he was a devil before he was a demon anyway... who knows what he started out as.
Maybe he started out as a drow... that would explain his appearance (which means nothing, I know) and the fact that his general is his son by a dark elf. I also like the Sage's idea that the Lady of Pain is Rule-of-Three's mother... of course, I know very little about RoT to begin with, so I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here. Clearly I need to re-read some of my older sources... which means getting them moved closer to me somehow... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 14:48:21
quote:
Originally posted by Imp
Rule-of-Three is his child, but it doesn't say who is the mother.
I've jokingly suggested in the past that Rule-of-Three is the product of a bizarre union between Graz'zt and the Lady of Pain.
It *could* help to explain how RoT has the ability to commune/control the sentient razorvine plaguing some parts of the City of Doors. |
| Imp |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 14:33:20
quote:
The Dark Prince is a deeply sexual, erotic being. He is known on many worlds only in legend, as a dark figure who visits witches and sorcerers, granting them sexual favors as well as magical powers. As a result, his female consorts have populated the multiverse with a depraved host of half-fiend children. Some learn of their father's identity and delve into the Abyss, hoping to usurp his power. His dark elf son, Athux, leads Graz'zt's demonic army, while his daughter Thraxxia serves as a private assassin. His son Arzial, the Blooded Baron, serves him as a vassal. Other children of Graz'zt include Belyara and Rule-of-Three.
I have it from Wiki, but I'm pretty sure it's the same text as in Dragon #360.
So now we know that Graz'zt does indeed have countless demon-spawn all over the multiverse. So I was right. Good to know.
Rule-of-Three is his child, but it doesn't say who is the mother. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 14:27:02
Didn't Graz'zt have a son named Rule-of-Three who was reputed to be the son of a succubus as well? |
| Imp |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 14:25:01
Dragon #353. Malcanthet is described as one of the first succubi that were spontanously spawned by the Abyss. It's not important if she was first or tenth. She was created by the Abyss itself. Many DMs definitely have their own homebrewed myths, but we know how it went. |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 13:36:07
Actually, the last thing I read on her stated she was 'among the first of the succubi to come into being in the Abyss'. So it is pretty much up to the individual DM to determine whether she was 'first' or not.
I would imagine that a lot of that stems from the fact that she doesn't first appear until Dragon #112, which postdates the first appearance of succubi in the game. Any DM who had an opinion on the subject likely had the opportunity to devise his own 'creation myth' about succubi and their rulership structure, anyways. |
| Imp |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 09:59:46
quote:
demonic succubi are still very much in existence, and predate Malcanthet
Err... There was no succubi predating Malcanthet. She was one of the first (together with Shami-Amlaure, Lynkhab and probably a couple of others), a true breed, as you called it. So if Malcanthet really became a devil, all other succubi could also, because they're less pure than her. |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 09:22:25
I thought I would interject a couple of thoughts here.
I like Markustay's succubus idea a lot - were I paying detailed attention to 4th Edition canon (I use Pathfinder), I would hijack the concept and use it from his whole cloth example.
Perhaps divide out out the succubi into 'breeds' - demonic succubi are still very much in existence, and predate Malcanthet, even though the official canon says they are devils - and this can be easily explained by 'it's who you ask' (as this conversation has shown. ). This way, Malcanthet's brood just happens to emerge looking exactly like their Abyssal namesakes, and this also explains how a group of frantic scholarly mortal...uh...wizards...made the decision that Lower Planes taxonomy had somehow taken a radical right turn down the Highway to Hell. It would not be the first time the two planes had gotten switched - there is a devil named 'Dagon' (although that is Asmodeus' fault), but the name originally belongs to an othyrion (spelling?), one of the very few remaining 'elder demons' that predate the tanar'ri.
To make it worse, the natural abilities of both 'breeds' are almost exactly the same (maybe a slight variation here and there, like a Tanzanian lemur versus one from Madagascar), and this makes it a challenge for mortal summoners when they want Breed X but get Breed Y instead. Like erinyes, infernal succubi can be 'promoted' to brachinas/pleasure devils, but abyssal ones, obviously, cannot. Conversely, abyssal succubi can become lillitu, while infernal ones cannot. All it takes is how the mortal scholars understand the whole concept - if indeed, they understand it at all.
Just thought I would toss that out for consideration. This seems to me where both fans and Wizbro can have their cake and eat it, too. |
| Imp |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 22:51:32
quote:
in the 1e/2e/3e eras the Succubi are still 'with the demons' - whats so hard to swallow?
They were born demons, in Abyss.
And succubi are devils NOW, in 4th ed. Before that they were demons, from the start. So saying that they were devils all the time and just came back to their roots in 4th ed doesn't work.
Is there even an explanation why and how succubi became devils? I mean, there are angels that became devils, probably even some that became demons (but I don't know of any). And there is Graz'zt, a devil that became demon. The only thing that should be realy explained is why ALL the succubi made the change, because that they CAN change isn't that weird. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 20:20:38
Of course they want each other dead..... NOW.
But I have to base my suppositions on all available canon, and 4e is canon, whether you accept it as such or not. If you don't want to use what I wrote then fine, but Malcanthet must be a devil now, in 4th edition, since all of the other succubi are.
What I don't understand is, I left the old lore intact for older eras - in the 1e/2e/3e eras the Succubi are still 'with the demons' - whats so hard to swallow?
I guess its just a matter of tastes - I always disliked the concept of aerynies, and also had always thought that succubi should be Devils*, so maybe thats why I have no problem with it. I never cared for that bit of redundancy.
The way I wrote it, the Succubi can be considered their own 'sub-group' at this point - the lore is fairly 'one size fits all'.
EDIT: And fiends are about torture and suffering (read Elminster in Hell - they like to toy with their victims). Simply killing someone you hate doesn't sound (to me) at all like a fiend - its sounds more like a mortal (fiends are so much more imaginative when it comes to revenge).
*Right from when I 'discovered' them back in the 1eMM |
| Imp |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 17:18:06
quote:
The fact that she has other children with other fiends does not invalidate what I proposed
You said that all the succubi could be children of Graz'zt, and so have a devil bloodline. But that's not true. A couple of succubi (Malcanthet being one of them) were created, quasi born from the Abyss itself, as demons. Later succubi were born from them or transformed from mortals. Your idea doesn't work.
Maybe they were brainwashed in 4th ed, I don't know and I don't care. Succubi are demons.
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What we can say is that the way it was was the way mortals believed it be - that Succubi were always Demons.
They were. I don't accept 4th ed lore as canon. And if you use it then your idea isn't that great. I don't know the details, but it sounds like the succubi simply weren't demonic enough. Yes, they were Chaotic Evil and stuff, but they still had to often limit their impulses, because they're not very helpful in manipulating and seducing. And possibly because demons are supposed to be ugly beasts and devils the beautiful evildoers.
Graz'zt wants Malcanthet dead. Malcanthet wants Graz'zt dead. If one would somehow be able to capture or outsmart the other, I doubt they would ****. The captured/outsmarted one would be dead simply because such a chance would possibly never repeat itself and the victor would not risk that the loser could escape. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 16:40:33
@Imp - The fact that she has other children with other fiends does not invalidate what I proposed; if anything, it strengthens it (there's a LOT of Succubi, after all).
Also, all succubi are now Devils - what I was offering there was a multi-use 'patch' to bridge the odd continuity glitch between editions. We can't keep ALL lore intact - that doesn't work. What we can say is that the way it was was the way mortals believed it be - that Succubi were always Demons.
If Malcanthet began life as a powerful Aerynies, then it makes sense that her children are of 'that bloodline'. They are not identical to other Aerynies because of the mixed heritage (although children she had with Graz'zt would still be, technically, pure-blood Baatezu).
The diversity amongst fiends - even ones of like 'race' - easily ties into the whole 'mixed parentage' thing.
And as for the 'angry sex' thing - do you really think fiends have ANY other kind? 
I fear you are applying human emotions to creatures that are very alien to anything we know (in the mortal world). they do not feel 'love' or 'friendship'... all they have is their hate. Through billions of years of 'evolution', they have managed to take that hate and create a myriad array of emotion-simulating 'shades of grey'.
When I fiend says to another fiend, "I don't feel like killing you today", that is as close to a profession of love as they can get.
So when two creatures who's whole lives are surrounded by hate - beings who thrive on lust BTW - are confronted with one-another and feel 'strong emotion' toward one-another, how can you NOT think they wouldn't 'do it'? I assume its a given. It would almost be like a 'competition thing' (who can last the longest, who can seduce the other, etc...)
Fiends do not 'make love'; you can't base your perceptions on what they are feeling. They do what they do out of hatred as well as anything else (like what a rapist does). I do not like to picture 'fiend sex', but I would imagine to an outsider it would look very much like 'rape' (even though its consensual.. sort of...)
And folks like Graz'zt and Malcanthet use it as a tool to control others - why wouldn't they play a game of attempting to manipulate each other that way? What better 'evil' then make someone fall in love with you, and then betray them? Fortunately, they are both way too smart to fall for that. |
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