| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 17:47:26
So reading through various 2nd edition books, I'll occasionally see something about a local temple that does healing for fees and whatnot. I'm curious, are adventurers the only ones who are charged? Let's say I'm a local peasant farmer and my daughter comes down with a sickness of sorts. Do priests help these people or turn them away because the peasant most likely can't pay 50 gold or more to cure his daughter of a wasting disease? Or someone from a small village travels with a sick family member to a city like Arabel or Suzail etc seeking a priestly cure for a sick family member? Will the church demand payment such as a portion of the farmer's harvest?
If I was personally rolling around the Realms as a priest, I'd cure sick people for free, blab about the merits of my god and try to convert others, but probably wouldn't charge gold unless it was those of the adventuring type and maybe not even then. There has to be priests or temples that operate that way wouldn't you think?
Just one of those weird thoughts that seems to be driving me crazy. What do you fellow scribes think?
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| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Jan 2012 : 00:25:09
Realmslore shows us that people in Faerūn don't make a deliberate choice about who to worship, often don't have a conscious 'patron' deity at all, don't see religion either in monolatristic terms or in such selfish, personal ones.
It's not unorthodox or uncommon; many characters are known to favour two or three deities approximately equally. Mages often worship Mystra alongside another primary god.
The 3e FRCS's emphasis on patrons is a rules artefact. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 21:55:53
My view is simpler. In your average village, there's going to be one temple and it's NOT going to be the entire Realms pantheon. It's going to be to one of the Realms gods that one priest or the other built a long time ago and may have a small shrine to other deities but will mostly fit them.
Hence Shadowdale has its huge ugly temple to Lathander. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 19:26:29
Ayrik: Not even clergy (except maybe a few absolute fanatics) worship one god exclusively, just predominantly (a minority even serve multiple gods as priests, as we know from Prayers from the Faithful). Everyone else is a normal polytheist.
Wooly: Yes, inevitably people will 'worship . . . one deity above--even if only slightly above--all others' (Power of Faerūn). This is their 'patron' in rules terms, but in-world, only some have a strong, definite patron that they think of that way.
I'm just paraphrasing Ed here. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 19:17:37
I understand that the Realms is polytheistic, but the whole patron deity concept still works for me. As I've commented more than once, there's always going to be one deity that more closely matches a person's overall beliefs, goals, and outlook, as compared to other deities.
To use myself as an example, if I was in the Realms, Lurue would be my patron deity. I'd certainly call on Lathander and Tymora rather frequently, and likely Torm as well. I'd call on other deities as appropriate, but when all is said and done, Lurue is the deity that most closely matches my own personality, so she'd be my patron.
So I don't see the polytheistic nature of the Realms as conflicting at all with the concept of a patron deity. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 19:13:14
More accurate terms might be monolatrism (for the clergy) and henotheism (for everyone else). |
| Faraer |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 18:43:42
Ed and The Hooded One have laboured to clarify this situation for years on REALMS-L, his threads here, sourcebooks such as Power of Faerūn, etc. To quote just a few of many:
quote:
. . . the Realms is polytheistic, not monotheistic: few characters in the Realms (except zealots and clerics) worship just one god; most folks worship many, and believe in all (that their race recognizes, at least
quote:
The Realms is polytheistic, remember; scribes won't get the "real feel" of the Realms so long as they persist in thinking of the majority of Realms inhabitants (as opposed to just the clergy, fantatics, and the minority who dwell in lands dominated by one or just a few faiths) as worshipping "One True God." Everybody believes in, and worships (if only in appeasement) LOTS of gods.]
quote:
Underscoring once again that the Realms is polytheistic, not monotheistic; most intelligent Faerūnian beings don't worship just one god, and outside of professional clergy and zealots, only a minority of them even have "patron deities" (primary gods they worship before or above all others).
3E's emphasis on patron deities is a rules convenience; most folk don't worship any one god dominantly, but several actively and many more, in propitiation or otherwise, as circumstances demand, and this isn't (= insincere) lip service. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 18:18:56
I had always assumed a person usually takes a Patron Deity, some power that particularly meshes well with their beliefs or behavior and also pays lip service to a slew of other deities of Realms, like saying a prayer to Umberlee before boarding a ship, or Talona to spare them from a sickness. I think this gets kind of wonky once you get into demihumans, but they all tend to have their own pantheon anyways. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 15:28:31
It has in his own rather substantial and important writing, and in a majority of sources overall, the Avatar novels (as I suggested) being the main exception. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 06:11:01
Realms polytheism has never really been depicted the way Ed Greenwood wanted. Especially since everyone has a "Patron Deity." Troy Denning has Cyric promote aggressive Cyrictheism for example. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 01:21:34
We don't have to speculate, though: we know how the priesthoods act from many sources, and while they seek to increase their god's total worship, I see little sign of the idea of maximizing those who have him/her as a patron, which would involve more intrusive evangelism than I understand to be usual in pagan Faerūnian religion, which in Christian terms stresses works (as well as religious attention and experience) over faith in the totalizing, jealous monotheistic sense. This is a gap between the Avatar novels and some 3E sources, which emphasize the patron/Faithless idea, and what Ed and others tell us in the more detailed sourcebook and other novel sources, where it's not a prominent conception. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 01:06:51
The font of their power is the deity they serve. There are many examples of churches and priesthoods losing their ability to cast spells ... where the followers immediately question why and quickly abandon the "false" faith for others. Since the gods are competitive and require soul sustenance in both the life and afterlife, they probably direct their priesthoods to make it an immediate priority whenever possible. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 01:00:07
Yes, temples deal with rich strangers differently from members of their own community. They won't trade services at all, of course, with those they don't deem at least neutral towards their own ends; they may ask for coin from those (adventurers and merchants) who have it, or services. There'll be various longer-term arrangements with rulers. I don't believe Faerūnian priesthoods compete for souls in the way Eilserus and Charles suggest -- people worship many gods, and Faerūnian polytheism would be quite different if priesthoods enquired into or aggressively sought principal devotion. Although they're religious organizations who facilitate communal and individual religious experiences, they're also power groups who strive within a system of exchanges and power relations, and don't generally pretend otherwise. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 00:25:26
Kentinal's correct - the local peasant farmer and his daughter might not need to pay for curatives because they attend the temple rites and observations on a regular basis. While the next visitors in need of magical healing might be some pack of random dirty (yet rich) adventurers from some distant land who care little for the locals or their religion and more about how much things cost. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 19:56:22
I think Keith Baker had it best for Eberron. No one actually charges for miracles unless they're deeply corrupt, it's part of their religion, or there's extenuating circumstances. You also have to ask yourself how common are spellcasting priests in your realms. If it's every formally trained priest then I imagine they'll mostly provide it for free to devout worshipers.
The converse, of course, is that I think it's ASSUMED that worshipers who get these kind of favors pay back in kind. I.e. tithing and generous donations. Those that take advantage of the priests (and thus offend their gods by treating them like a Doctor's office) will get a very frosty reception. For Good and Neutral Aligned Gods, I suspect they just assume the souls of the parishioners are payment enough.
Of course, I imagine Waukeen actually will just provide these spells for cash upfront. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 19:14:29
Well depends on religion, however I would see most local temples providing healing to local residents for a bag of beans, a bushel of wheat or donated service. They are of the community, an adventurer however is not, taking healing from local clearly needs to be paid for in some lasting way. Gold is good, useable magic items even better. |
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