| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Wenin |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 02:44:11
I've been wanting to create a sub racial map that takes the information from the Player's Guide to Faerun and create a symbol based map of the human sub races. I'd like to group the various racial sub-races within similiar colors.
Here is the full list.
Bedine
Calishite
Chondathan
Chultan
Damaran
Durpari
Ffolk
Halruaan
Illuskan
Lantanna
Mulan
Mulani
Nar
Netherese
Rashemi
Shaaran
Shade
Shou
Sossrim
Tashalan
Tethyrian
Tuigan
Turami
Ulutiun
Vaasan
Mulan and Mulani are the same, right? Just a typo?
Could my fellow scribes help complete the tree, and correct mine?
Netherese > Bedine
Netherese > Halruaan
Netherese > Shade
Rashemis \
Nar > Damaran
Sossrims /
Calishite \
Chondathan \
> Tethyrian
Illuskan /
Netherese /
|
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 16:51:26
-The question is why they are there in the first place. |
| Eladrinstar |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 04:46:01
It already is canon that the Bedine are descended from portal-transported Zakharans and Netherese survivors. It's the first sentence in their paragraph in Race of Faerun. They even kept distorted versions of the Netherese deities (presumably because they were out of the Zakharan pantheon's jurisdiction, so to speak). They have lifestyles incredibly similar to the Al-Badia of Zakhara because the agricultural, sedentary culture of the Low Netherese was pretty much obsolete. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 03:04:16
-Perhaps the first Zakharans came to the area when the Phaerimm's campaign of ecological terrorism first turned the area into a parched sea of desert. The Netherese knew of Zakhara, so perhaps some enterprising resident though that if anyone would be able to turn the desert back into something livable, it would be some Zakharans (either as slaves, or guests). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 19:17:07
Which means the Bedine language - printed on the inside cover of the Anauroch supplement - should also apply (somewhat) to Midani (the Zakharan language).
However, considering the massive time-gap, I would say it would as hard for them to understand each-other as a modern english speaker trying to understand someone speaking Auld English (which is quite a bit harder then reading Shakespeare).
The Bedine tongue will also have gained many influences from both the Rengardt tribes indigenous to the region, and from the Netherese themselves (since they apparently existed in the desert before the fall, at least for a little while).
Some source or other say the modern Bedine are descended from the Nethrese, so thats the only way to reconcile the two - the modern Bedine are Netherease/Zakharan crossbreeds. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 21:29:05
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I am almost completely positive that I read, canon, that the Bedine descend from Zhakarans that were misplaced in Anauroch via a portal. I believe PGtF says it, if not...
-You are correct. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 03:33:58
Expanding on Quale's thoughts a bit, especially where a "proto-patriarch" is shaped into the role of local pantheon ruler ...
Every religion contains a creation myth, and as often as not the first people are somehow decended directly from the gods. Perhaps, as an example, a population of Aesirblood humans (descended from Odin, etc) brings the Norse powers wherever it may fumble across worlds and planes ... but the gods have as little choice as the humans, they depend on this "resonant" symbiosis and are unable to travel any other direction. What I'm saying is that Tyr couldn't just deploy a bored aspect on a five year mission to find strange new worlds and explore new civilizations ... he would only be aware of worlds where his people (his descendants?) actually carry his "essence". Perhaps a human with enough divine ancestry would attract his parental pantheon regardless of faith; a grandson of Herakles, for example, might bring the Greek pantheon everywhere he travels, regardless of his (or his gods') desires and intentions. |
| Razz |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 03:00:28
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for the Bedine, I believe they have lore indicating that they are Netherease survivors, and other lore that they were a group transported to Anauroch somehow (I think somewhere it even mentions an evil mage having done it, but I can't be sure ATM). Personally, I combined the two and say that the modern Bedine are a mixture of Netherease survivors and a tribe of Muhjari (southern/zakharan peoples) that wandered through a large portal (probably Imaskari in origin, considering the point of origin). That way, both pieces of canon still work (in that the Bedine existed before the Netherease fall, and after).
I am almost completely positive that I read, canon, that the Bedine descend from Zhakarans that were misplaced in Anauroch via a portal. I believe PGtF says it, if not, it had to have been something in 3E. Maybe one of the Perilous Gateway articles or something. I just swear I read that they are Zhakaran and the proof was their language was very similar to the Zhakaran language. |
| Sinjin Oban |
Posted - 01 Apr 2012 : 19:07:33
I was going to go into a long, rambling treatise somewhere on Lapal migration, but I couldn't find a good spot. I'll keep it brief here. The following terms have been interchanged at different points in history. During some eras, a term might be specific in regards to ancestry. In other eras, it might describe people belonging to a region without regard for racial stock.
Lapal: Virtually extinct as a people. Only the Tashalaran remain. The Lapal were enslaved by the Sarrukh at the dawn of time. After the Sarrukh, the Yuan-ti held them captive for roughly 30,000 years. Rebelled after arrival of Tabaxi, etc. in Chult. Absorbed in Halruua by Netherese. Founders of Lapaliiya. Decimated by Empire Plague. Crushed by Serpentes Empire. Overrun by Shaaran slaves imported by Serpentes.
Tashalaran: The Lapal tribesmen who returned to carve the Tashalar from the claws of the Yuan-ti. Subsequently re-enslaved by Yuan-ti, and successfully rebelled for a second time. Founders of Narubel. Overthrew Serpentes. Founders of Tashtan Confederation. Today these people are more commonly referred to as "Tashalan".
Tashalan: During the reign of Tashtan, this term was used for all the various peoples now referred to as "Lapaliiyans". Today, "Tashalan" describes ethnicity, and has replaced "Tashalaran" to describe the last true descendants of the ethnic Lapal people.
Lapaliiyan: Before the Tashtan Confederation, this described the Lapal people who rebelled and fled from tens of thousands of years of yuan-ti enslavement. From the time the Shoon Empire broke Tashtan, the term "Lapaliiyan" has been used to refer to the various inhabitants of the Lapaliiyan city states, be they ethnically Shaaran, Calishite, Tashalan, or Chultan.
Tashlutan: Inhabitant of the city of Tashluta. Not specific to any ancestry.
Chultan: Immigrants from an island to the southwest of Chult. Brought to Chult and the worship of Ubtao by couatls. Three of the primary tribes were named Eshowe, Tabaxi, and Thinguth. The Eshowe are nearly extinct. The Tabaxi assimilated the lesser tribes and remained in Chult. The Thinguth settled Thindol. All are considered racially Chultan, though the Thinguth are more likely to refer to themselves as "Thindolese". |
| Quale |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 16:26:59
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which is why I am leaning toward the 'All once were ONE' theory in regards to the multiverse (and each world is an alternate path the original world could have taken). I see you mentioned Ymir's death - I take it you may be leaning that way as well.
It's not how I have, just suggesting for your world, that the Ymir's legend could be a metaphor of the original world's dimensional breakup.
My homebrew world is Earth's history and FR's merged, not broken up. Also the role of gods is lessened. E.g. the Ymir were actually people who survived the Sundering (where Odin was from the polar culture and partially responsible for it). Their name survived in places like Mirar, Almir, Keltormir, Mir of the Lands of Intrigue and Tunlands, the Fomir (fomorians) etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now, if we combine the two, that means that not only were all the worlds imperfect mirrors of each other in the beginning, but so, too, were the gods. So all the similar deities we have from pantheon to pantheon are just different reflections of the same being, now long gone. What became Odin on one world, became Zeus on another, and Ra on yet another.
I don't really think that, BTW - that was just a very basic example using the heads of pantheons - I think the alternate-world version would not have all ended up in charge, so it is more likely 'the thunderer' Became Thor for the Norse, but Zeus for the Greeks. Or Thoth and Odin (and Annam) all stemmed from the same origin (Woten?)
I tried once to do the same, turned out too difficult or impossible to resolve, also D&D pantheons of Earth are not really accurate. What would make Woten the original over others? I decided there was one original pre-cataclysmic pantheon (of the ''Watching gods''), after them it was similar to RW history (hundreds of pantheons, thousands of small gods), then the Dawn Cataclysm happened. It's a process of unification into what was in the beginning, only some remnants of RW gods survived e.g. Aphrodite (Sune), Heimdall (Helm), Silvanus ...
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which is why I finally gave up on running FR as a D&D world, even though I am still a huge fan of the setting. I had asked Ed about this problem... the 'Everythingness' of FR - how its forced to have every little thing the D&D rules can throw at it (and also have those things EVERYWHERE, at once). It takes a setting that I think started out as a delicious Jambalaya, and pureed it into Dogfood...
Indeed, I stayed with an alternate version of FR cause of its wonderful geography, it's a great ''skeleton'' for a DM to use. No matter what people say about the bloat, personally a lot of places are generic, particularly if you take out the RW analogies. I need for each place to feel fantastic in its own way.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Oh... and Shou EVERYWHERE... what the hell? As if it wasn't a hodgepodge before. 
I like the Chinatown idea so you don't have to go all the way to Kara-Tur, in one or two cities, any more the value drops. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 02:31:51
Only after re-reading what you said did I just now get the gist of it - its becuase nearly all the interlopers came from one world (specifically, Earth).
Which is why I am leaning toward the 'All once were ONE' theory in regards to the multiverse (and each world is an alternate path the original world could have taken). I see you mentioned Ymir's death - I take it you may be leaning that way as well.
I also have always imagined that not all of Earth's races were originally from here, which means the Northmen of both worlds may have 'sailed between the worlds' from some other planet where the Aesir rule supreme. I think every major pantheon originated on a single world and spread outward.
Now, if we combine the two, that means that not only were all the worlds imperfect mirrors of each other in the beginning, but so, too, were the gods. So all the similar deities we have from pantheon to pantheon are just different reflections of the same being, now long gone. What became Odin on one world, became Zeus on another, and Ra on yet another.
I don't really think that, BTW - that was just a very basic example using the heads of pantheons - I think the alternate-world version would not have all ended up in charge, so it is more likely 'the thunderer' Became Thor for the Norse, but Zeus for the Greeks. Or Thoth and Odin (and Annam) all stemmed from the same origin (Woten?)
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Why am I bothered with interlopers, it's strange, I feel the world is too jumbled when you have e.g. nagas in the North, minotaurs in Damara, trolls in Unther. Takes the uniqueness from each place.
QFT
Which is why I finally gave up on running FR as a D&D world, even though I am still a huge fan of the setting. I had asked Ed about this problem... the 'Everythingness' of FR - how its forced to have every little thing the D&D rules can throw at it (and also have those things EVERYWHERE, at once). It takes a setting that I think started out as a delicious Jambalaya, and pureed it into Dogfood.
i'm one of those weird people who likes everything not to touch on his plate, and savors each portion in-turn. i don't want to crap my mouth full of everything together, and i sure as hell don't want to drink my salad and desert after they've been run through a blender together.
SEPERATE is GOOD.
And who the heck's idea was it to save some of the Mazticans by having a group of them go to Faerūn just before the Spellplague hit the fan? they FINALLY figure out that breaking Chult off was a good idea (I did that years ago), but then transplanted an Aztec-like culture directly onto the continent. 
The only savings-grace is that they completely ignored that bit of lore right after coming up with it.
Oh... and Shou EVERYWHERE... what the hell? As if it wasn't a hodgepodge before. |
| Quale |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 10:14:57
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Does this apply to other races as well? Perhaps some fey (or drow or orc or giant) nation of ancient times was born of Earth but migrated to Toril? Tyr suddenly appeared one day (with an army of angels) and forced his way into the pantheon ... maybe he came from Earth?
It's either that or I think it's suggested in Planescape that the pantheons from Earth are not just of Earth but active in many crystal spheres more or less, almost universal. It's messed up, I like the the third explanation, an alernate-Earth FR. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 17:39:01
I don't have any problem with the concept at all. A few people traffic between the worlds, it's easy for persons (and gods) of power to transplant entire populations (ie, Mulhorand).
Does this apply to other races as well? Perhaps some fey (or drow or orc or giant) nation of ancient times was born of Earth but migrated to Toril? Tyr suddenly appeared one day (with an army of angels) and forced his way into the pantheon ... maybe he came from Earth? |
| Quale |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 17:03:06
Ok, true.
Why am I bothered with interlopers, it's strange, I feel the world is too jumbled when you have e.g. nagas in the North, minotaurs in Damara, trolls in Unther. Takes the uniqueness from each place.
It seems a lot of the gates are connected to some fantastical mythic version of Earth, what if Abeir was like that, then Maztica, Mulhorand and Unther returned home. And the original split was Ymir's death. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 15:31:11
Sorry, didn't mean Toril (or Abeir-Toril, if you prefer) is a 'melting pot' of other worlds.
I just meant it's enormous amount of portals and extensive planer inter-connectivity lends itself to be a place where "anything can be found", and I believe Ed himself has said he designed it with that in mind.
I hadn't meant that interlopers are the rule; merely an acceptable byproduct of a world of high-magic with a focus on planer gates.  |
| Quale |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 20:22:11
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Anyhow, I don't know why people have so much trouble with interlopers (both divine and mortal) in a setting BUILT on the premise of a VAST NUMBER OF PORTALS leading to 'other realms'. Toril appears to be some sort of 'Cosmic Crossroads' in the greater scheme of things, so it makes sense that nearly anything that exists can be found there.
Cause it's not a cosmic crossroad, you take the Mulan, Dathites, Illuskans, Damarans, Hordelands tribes and probably Calishites, turns out 70 percent of Faerun's population comes from one world. |
| Quale |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 19:45:10
It's on the first page of Powers and Pantheons, migrations from Greece, Rome and then Celtic or Norse, not sure. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 16:37:55
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
Markustay
... the hinted-at but unnamed Mediterranean people mentioned in F&A.
Earth Mediterranean? I don't want to OT this thread, can anyone drop a link to more about this?
I am nowhere near my sources ATM, but I 'think' it may be in the section with the Egyption/Mulan/Mulhorand/Unther deities in Faiths & Avatars or Powers & Pantheons (I can't even remember if those are the correct names ATM). That would be the first place I'd look if I were home. If not there, its somewhere else in those 2e 'god books'.
Several cultures are mentioned as 'interlopers', and another one that is hinted at that has become psuedo-canon is that the Imaskari Shou were interlopers from some world where the Celestial Bureaucracy held sway (but not necessarily Earth). Some small part of Brian's original GHotR survived into the printed version in regards to this, but I can't recall what (most of it was dropped, though, so don't quote me on that).
Anyhow, I don't know why people have so much trouble with interlopers (both divine and mortal) in a setting BUILT on the premise of a VAST NUMBER OF PORTALS leading to 'other realms'. Toril appears to be some sort of 'Cosmic Crossroads' in the greater scheme of things, so it makes sense that nearly anything that exists can be found there. |
| Dewaint |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 08:55:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
A race tree tied to a timeline could account for the interlopers.
maybe somthing like a spreadsheet document (Excell or OpenOffice) will suites the demands  I mean, you can link cells to other sheets add comments like first appearance, who and how was absorbed and so on. A sheet per proto-human group/tribe with a quick word about being canon or homebrew would make it i think. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 04:56:50
quote:
Markustay
... the hinted-at but unnamed Mediterranean people mentioned in F&A.
Earth Mediterranean? I don't want to OT this thread, can anyone drop a link to more about this? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 04:51:09
I've coined the term 'Dathite', because 'Chondathan' is already in use as a local geographic descriptor, and it gets confusing when you say something like "the Chondathans are Chondathan" (which is how it would read canonically).
Ergo, all peoples of that blood are of 'Dathite' origins (which I've connected to the hinted-at but unnamed Mediterranean people mentioned in F&A). The Dathite bloodline can be found all around the SoFS and Vilhon Reach, and also in lands along the Swordcoast (Lands of Intrigue) and traces of it in certain towns and villages throughout the southern lands.
The idea is that particular people were 'stolen from elsewhere' early-on by the Imaskari, but managed to rebel and spread-out around the sea of Fallen stars (long before the Imaskari tried again with the Mulan). Its why we have certain Grecco-Roma names, customs, and even deities (Dionysius, Tyche, Silvanus, Poseidon) sprinkled into FR lore (at least, that's how I reasoned it out - I think Poseidon is really just a Dathite name for Sashelas).
BTW, I fix a lot of the problems people had with all the interloping in FR, but I did so in a round-about way, using the WoL&D and the creation of the Planes themselves as a basis. You see, in the beginning, there was but ONE WORLD: The Prime material plane was precisely that - a vast, single plane like any other (but it was shattered with the death of Ymir). Ergo, no one is really interloping anywhere, since all humans stem from a single, common source (at least in my homebrew, proto-mythology). |
| Quale |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 23:44:47
That's a good idea about Dambrath, they're Illuskans, but to change them to Chondathans. Cause I planned to use Nidal (also torturers, from Golarion) as a remnant of Talfiric Ebenfar and moving Dambrath there would make it even better.
Generally I pictured Jhaamdath/Chondath similar to the Roman/Latin expansion in our world. |
| BlackAce |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 19:43:24
I did something a little similar with the Chondathans by splitting them into three subgroups that all stem from the same proto-culture.
Jhaamdathan:
Dragon Coast, Hlondeth, Turmish, Chessenta, Aglarond, The Vast, Sembia, Cormyr, Dalelands
Chondathan:
Chondath, Shining Plains, Sespech, Lake of Steam[mixed in with Calishites], Border Kingdoms.
Dambrathan:
These stem off into the nomadic Shaaryan and the settled Arkaiun(pre drow). |
| Quale |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 18:19:04
I find it hard to believe that interlopers make so much of FR's population. So the tree in our Realms is analogous of Earth. To deal with the gaps we shifted a few cultures from Golarion, Greyhawk, Mystara ... We broke Chondathan into parts, e.g. the western is more anglicized.
The Dragon Annual article about languages also gives more new names to use, to make the tree realistic, except needs a lot of fixing.
|
| Wenin |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 22:10:12
A race tree tied to a timeline could account for the interlopers. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 18:14:47
My own concept was to start off with my own proto-races at the top (with much room between them), and then have all the branches below them, like a family-tree. I might have to do a separate one for each proto-race, but then that would not allow me to draw lines between them.
I've also decided that the northmen came from 'elsewhere', or even 'elsewhen', thanks to an answer Ed gave me recently in his thread.
My best guess on that would be that they were the human creator race, most of which wound-up on Abeir after the split.
Part of the problem with a normal, simple racial tree is that Toril has had MANY interlopers. |
| Dewaint |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 15:46:58
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I think you've got a detail wrong. As I understand it, The Netherese are descended from the same "Dessarin" who also became the Angardt (and then also the Uthgardt, and I think, the Moonshae Ffolk). Hard to say, since over time mighty Netheril would probably also be formed from populations from other regions.
Thanks for pointing it out:)
According to LEoF, Rengarth barbarians, Angardt barabrians, and the settlers of the villages that founded Netheril appear to be different tribes.
And yes, Netheril and certainly other "civilisations" that were a bit expansionistic absorbed other groups. Bearing this in mind, this list will never be complete
A never ending jigsaw, with a lot of arguments at the end  |
| Dewaint |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 15:11:52
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I found the PGtF/RoF too superficial to make the tree, and you don't need a tree but a web.
Agreed! And it needs to be a 4 dimensional one . There are so many small pieces of lore scattered around the table, and who know how many are contraticting themselves.That's why I got frustrated years ago. 
I looked at RoF as a good starting point 'cause of the human chapter. LEoF 'cause of the additional history.
|
| Quale |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 13:39:50
There's the GHotR web enhancement that includes more info on how the Moonshaes were settled.
I found the PGtF/RoF too superficial to make the tree, and you don't need a tree but a web. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 13:22:10
I think you've got a detail wrong. As I understand it, The Netherese are descended from the same "Dessarin" who also became the Angardt (and then also the Uthgardt, and I think, the Moonshae Ffolk). Hard to say, since over time mighty Netheril would probably also be formed from populations from other regions.
A parallel might be ancient Rome: many of her citizens were "pure" Romans born of the Italian-Mediterranean ethnicity, and they spread as over generations they mixed with other Roman lands. But the peoples on the edges of empire were hardly the same ethnic group, indeed, Rome grew so large that it was comprised of two separate empires in very different ethnic regions. Given enough time the population of a stagnant empire would evolve a new (and largely homogenous) ethnic identity, but Netheril (like Rome) was dynamic and expansionistic through most of its history (plus it had floating cities), always absorbing new peoples. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 13:19:18
Holy Moly that is a lot of detailed work. |
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