| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jorin Embersmith |
Posted - 08 Jan 2011 : 23:05:04
Well met fellow seekers after knowledge!
I have a conundrum. A player of mine...the notorious power-gamer, has just had a character die (M Dwarf Battlerager5/Bbn3/Ftr2).
In its place he's bringin' in a Cleric....but not just any cleric, A 10th level Cleric of Helm (no problems yet) from Arabel. This Cleric, however, is based around stretching 1st-3rd level spells to 24-hour duration!
In order to do this, he took FOUR Extra Turning feats...he now has a total of 26 turning attempts per day, and there are NO undead to be fought in the next few levels...which I have told him.
Through annoying rules-lawyering, he has made a cleric with zero offensive spells, who has a near-permanent stats block of DR 5/-, AC of about 30, Saves of +15,+10,+15, and is immune to all mind-affecting magic cast by evil creatures. Oh, and his normal weapons become Holy, Good, and Silver or Cold Iron depending on what he chooses for that day.
Also, he doesn't heal other folk, he wants to "defend others by defending himself".
I can't just boot him out of the game, and he is stubbornly insisting that I allowed this char. (he snuck it by me, not listing out 4 Extra Turnings, just writing a tiny "x4" in the corner after listing it once...)
So, as far as I can tell, my options are:
Find another player
Kill off his character straight out
Send wave after wave of so-called "grudge-monsters" after him.
What I really need is your advice on how to handle this with roleplaying and good story background.
So far, he's totally ignored the "Helm gives you spells, he's not going to give you that much extra divine power unless you plan on assaulting the Warlock's Crypt", as well as the "holding that much divine energy, you risk burning out your mind" and is just pissy about the fact that "Having that much pure divine might reneing every day, evil folk are going to try to capture you and keep draining it to empower their own magics!" (based on what the Sharran's did to the avatar of Mystra in The Temptation of Elminster)
So, what would you do?
|
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 05:41:10
Hmm, I dunno, I think women can be just as competitive. We just tend to show it in a more even-handed way. Usually. Me, I'm just as ruthless as the guys when it comes to competition, but I still believe in playing by the rules. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 04:45:43
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Players who calculate their damage-per-round (for any purpose) are clearly powergamers. I forced my munchkin to roll a new character which complied to the same rules as everybody else, he stopped showing after two sessions, nobody misses him.
I notice that female players have much less tendency to be aggressive powergamers (unless it's the expected playstyle from all her peers). I've never met a female munchkin. I don't want to seem sexist, but I suspect a large part of the reason is a sense of "fair play" the women have. Some of them are as vicious and bloodthirsty as any of the guys (a few seem to revel in being more macho and competitive than the males), but they still seem to be more aware of their social surroundings than of their character sheets, they are apparently much less motivated towards cheating and "selfish" action (or perhaps much better at hiding it from me). And usually not shy about using their feminine charms to manipulate the group by systematically targeting the victim/hopeless (nerdiest/loneliest) males with contrived attention, lol.
I think that as males, we very much have a tendency towards being competitive -- and some express that by becoming powergamers/munchkins. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 02:10:36
Players who calculate their damage-per-round (for any purpose) are clearly powergamers. I forced my munchkin to roll a new character which complied to the same rules as everybody else, he stopped showing after two sessions, nobody misses him.
I notice that female players have much less tendency to be aggressive powergamers (unless it's the expected playstyle from all her peers). I've never met a female munchkin. I don't want to seem sexist, but I suspect a large part of the reason is a sense of "fair play" the women have. Some of them are as vicious and bloodthirsty as any of the guys (a few seem to revel in being more macho and competitive than the males), but they still seem to be more aware of their social surroundings than of their character sheets, they are apparently much less motivated towards cheating and "selfish" action (or perhaps much better at hiding it from me). And usually not shy about using their feminine charms to manipulate the group by systematically targeting the victim/hopeless (nerdiest/loneliest) males with contrived attention, lol. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 21:05:16
I'd say those are both munchkins. On the other hand, my hubby's wood elf ninja can dish out tons of damage when she needs to, and is darn good at hiding, but get her into an NPC interaction that doesn't involve combat, and she's no better than anyone else. That's a power-gamer. I've got a bard/dervish who is also quite good at dishing out the damage, but he has flaws that sometimes come into play to offset his advantages, such as Chivalrous fighting (won't attack women unless attacked first) and Timid/pacifist (won't attack first- neg to initiative in combat). And those flaws are part of how I RP him. He will only fight if he has to, and will almost never attack a female unless she attacks first! |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 16:46:47
I wonder how many "racks of magic missiles" a dragon could suspend? Dragons tend to have lots of HD/levels and a whole lots of time to cast spells, at least when compared against little low-level magic-users ... (ahem, shield spell?)
I had one kid try to import a character who was stuffed full of dozens of "bio-energy magitek(?) implants" that each granted a +1 increase to all six ability scores, an increase in hit die type, and various other minor stats bonuses. His argument was that paying 10GP each imposed a "realistic limit" that prevented abuse. His fallback argument, of course, was the claim that his previous DM allowed it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 16:23:26
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Not an issue if all the PCs and the DM are powergamers. Everybody plays the min/max game nobody picks a disadvantage unless they feel it's offset by some advantage, even if only an intangible one that helps define some distinctive details for "character background". Powergamers are just people who are more adept at using everything the rules offer. Powergaming playstyles might tend to emphasize more "efficient" roll-playing and combat values, but they are still workable, if perhaps not for everyone.
Munchkins are simply cheaters; their characters don't just exploit the rules, they utterly ignore and rewrite them. Apparently a popular playstyle (there's lots of munchkins) ... but I don't really understand the appeal or see the point.
I am reminded of someone who told me about his low-level, 1E mage killing a dragon by himself. The guy's DM had a houserule that allowed spellslingers to do things like cast multiple magic missiles, but hold fire on them indefinitely. So the mage saw a dragon and used several "racks of magic missiles" (his own words) and killed the dragon by himself. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 14:05:18
Not an issue if all the PCs and the DM are powergamers. Everybody plays the min/max game nobody picks a disadvantage unless they feel it's offset by some advantage, even if only an intangible one that helps define some distinctive details for "character background". Powergamers are just people who are more adept at using everything the rules offer. Powergaming playstyles might tend to emphasize more "efficient" roll-playing and combat values, but they are still workable, if perhaps not for everyone.
Munchkins are simply cheaters; their characters don't just exploit the rules, they utterly ignore and rewrite them. Apparently a popular playstyle (there's lots of munchkins) ... but I don't really understand the appeal or see the point. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 12:56:08
The problem is that power gamers run the gambit of all sorts of classes and styles from spellcasters to charging brutes. I myself have a 12th level paladin who can dish out a whopping 200+ damage on a Charging Smite attack.
With that being said, I don't foresee a DM putting up encounters that can be both challenging for the 1 power gamer in the group without the possibility of it being a TPK on a consistant basis. This is espically difficult in a published adventure like Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land.
As for the demi-lich, his powers are only so good as long as he can cast magic....so no magic, no power  . OR when a power gamer gets the bright ideas of Sundering a spellcaster's spell component pouch and thus ruining any spells which require spell components, lol!!! |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 12:42:53
Hmphff. Some of my players snuck in cheater d20's (extra "20" instead of a "1"), more as a conspiracy-practical-joke fool-the-DM sort of novelty than a serious attempt to cheat.
They were a bit dismayed that I detected the suspicious dice after only a few hours (instead of a few months, lol). I confiscated the dice, saying they could use 'em, openly, they could even swap between normal and biased dice before each roll provided they let me use the same.
Here's the thing: they actually evaluated this numerically before responding. Some sort of hurried statistical analysis was made, including estimates about how often and how many such dice would be rolled, and why, and by whom, with what sorts of consequences for success and failure. To the best of their abilities they actually calculated the value of everybody using straight dice vs cheater dice before answering me.
That's powergaming. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 11:35:30
Well I my self are running right on the edge betwene Munchkin and powergamer.
And my experience with it have been that if the DM knows what he is doing, he will put op encounters, that are specificly targed at this player or no encounters at all, so there is no one to use his awesome power on.
Or, if he realy think he's that bad... Pitch him agains I dont know... a demi Lich...
Letst se his powers now.... |
| Kanya Skulls |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 15:28:53
Yeah. A Powergamer can be a Munchkin, but not all Powergamers are Munchkins. And my friend says than not all Munchkins are Powergamers, but I don't agree with him. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 03:44:18
quote:
Originally posted by Kanya Skulls
Those are munchkins.
Fixed that for ya 
quote:
Originally posted by Kanya Skulls
Powergamers are players who are trying to make their character strong, but they won't bend or brake rules, won't argue with the GM and are as focused on roleplaying as any other player. This the diffrence.
So: Powergamer = Nothing bad.
A-hole Powergamer = Munchkin.
If you want you can think Powergamer = Munchkin, but IMO that is wrong and you would be very rude towards all powergaming players, who didn't do anything bad.
I never said Powergamer = Munchkin but that there are similarities between the two. It was a comparison, and one that shows examples on how both utilize rules to gain a better mechanical advantage at the table. I also stated that a powergamer then backs up his character with in-depth storylines, intriguing backrounds, and wonderful role-playing. As I consider myself an optimized player (or powergamer if you will) I see nothing wrong with this as well. A so-called Munchkin will do the same exact things a Powergamer will but gives little care to how that character RPs. That is where the differences start.
So while there are many differences in attitude and role-playing (or the lack there of), there are ideals that the two share like optimization of a build and so forth.
And getting back to the original topic, by the main thoughts and theroies of the collective group here at CK, the cleric turned Warlock is a Munchkin because he has no role-playing ability. He completly defied what his deity believes to be good and virtuous, and there for putting him into the category of Munchkin. Now how he RPs the warlock is something of another matter. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 00:53:30
I tend to agree with Kanya here. There is a difference. My hubby is a power-gamer to a degree, but he always has some kind of background to go with it, and is just as much into the RP as anyone else. Another player in my most recent group was sort of the opposite- he min/maxed to Hells and back, and hardly brought any actual RP into the game. Killed one of my BBG dragons in two rounds, almost single-handedly. THAT'S a munchkin. |
| Kanya Skulls |
Posted - 29 Jan 2011 : 20:50:32
quote:
Diffan wrote:
Power-gamers look towards optimization, yet stretch the truth or rules that favor them. They're often the one's who heatedly debate RAI vs. RAW in favor of RAW most of the time. Power-Gamers often don't take the more flavorful apporach rather than min/max-ing for the best angles.
That are munchkins. Powergamers are players who are trying to make their character strong, but they won't bend or brake rules, won't argue with the GM and are as focused on roleplaying as any other player. This the diffrence.
So: Powergamer = Nothing bad.
A-hole Powergamer = Munchkin.
If you want you can think Powergamer = Munchkin, but IMO that is wrong and you would be very rude towards all powergaming players, who didn't do anything bad. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 29 Jan 2011 : 14:45:22
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are countless different approaches to gaming, and none is better or more valid than another.
I agree none is better in an absolute, universal or moral sense. But neither are all approaches equivalent, equally effective at particular goals, equally fruitful in particular ways. It's just that arguing or sneering about who people are and what they want doesn't get us far on messageboards.
Are munchkins powergamers who do it more than you (or the rest of the group) do? |
| Rhewtani |
Posted - 29 Jan 2011 : 14:13:20
Used to be that power gamers were munchkins that didn't talk about it in front of their DMs. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 29 Jan 2011 : 03:36:35
quote:
Originally posted by Kanya Skulls
Just a little reminder: Powergamer =/= Munchkin. The first is a good player. The second is the annoying dude who's destroying the game and fun of other players. Remember that.
I wouldn't necessarily say that they're not one in the same, at least some of the time. Power-gamers look towards optimization, yet stretch the truth or rules that favor them. They're often the one's who heatedly debate RAI vs. RAW in favor of RAW most of the time. Power-Gamers often don't take the more flavorful apporach rather than min/max-ing for the best angles. Not saying this is wrong or bad, just that it parallels that of a Munchkin. Power-Gamers ofte look at the mechanics side first and then fit the Role-Playing to fit those mechanics rather than the other way around. This is the first, and probably biggest, diversion from that of a Munchkin.
Munchkin's often care little for the Role-Playing implications or aspect of the game. They try gaining every angle from the best races for certain classes/builds with little regard to how that race may affect the local area. Examples such as a Troll, Kobold, or some monstrous PC rather than the simple PHB ones come to mind. That's just one instance that I can think of that separates Munchkins from other styles of gamers. And while Power-Gamers and/or Optimizers look for good mechanics they at least try to back that up with believable role-play, character motives, and interesting back stories. |
| Jorin Embersmith |
Posted - 29 Jan 2011 : 00:11:43
quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
Just curious, what were his last 12 characters in this campaign?
Actually, he has only died twice.
His first character, Karavarus the Dwarven wizard lasted from 1st to 9th level. Before that, he just ran away a lot, and his magic was spent mostly on spells to boost his AC and saves to insane levels. His next Char, Klog the Dwarven Battlerager, died to an extra bad-ass wraith, and now he is on his warlock.
He's definitely a good player....if it were a one-player game.
Oh, and speaking of bards, this is the same player who created a bard whose sole purpose was to bluff his way out of everything...with a +55 mod to Bluff skill. (Yay for Glibness or whatever the spell was)
|
| Kanya Skulls |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 19:26:12
Just a little reminder: Powergamer =/= Munchkin. The first is a good player. The second is the annoying dude who's destroying the game and fun of other players. Remember that. |
| mensch |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 19:16:57
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
mensch, bards are SUPPOSED to be a bit of a jakc-of-all-trades know-it-all. It's part of their basic ability set. They travel, they listen, they read and watch. They LEARN. Of course, they also sing, tell stories, and play with (some) magic. Naturally a bard with a lot of ranks in those skills is going to be very versitile and know a lot. That doesn't make them a power-gaming class by any means. In fact, I'd say it's one of the LEAST broken classes there is, because many of their skills don't see much use in a wilderness or dungeon campaign. They only really shine in urban adventures.
Oh, I didn't mean to say a bard is a broken or even a power-gaming class. A bard is a very good addition to a party and can turn quite difficult fights into a DM's nightmare with their bardic song and various other buffs. But what I meant is that they do share a certain characteristic, the broad versatility of skills, found in the builds of lots of power-gamers. A bard can cast spells, sing, wear arm and fight a decent fight and the fact that he can do all this sometimes stirs a bit of jealousy in players with a more dedicated class (like a specialist wizard or a fighter). So the frequent jabs at our bard are only goodnatured. A power-gamer, on the other hand, aims to be the best at everything, or one thing in particular, which can become quite annoying for other players.
The bard in question did max out his social skills though, which he now regrets a little bit. Through some synergy bonuses and an early feat he consistently rolls some rather high Bluff and Diplomacy checks. Couple this with the fact that he seems to be on a personal crusade to wreck the fine retailers of Faerūn and the result is that he now "has" to haggle with every merchant he's dealing with to stay true to his character motivations. An activity which gets old quite fast, so I feel some character development coming up in future sessions - as in: the bard becomes less materialistic, so that the proprietors of Ye Olde Magic Shoppes in Faerūn can sleep again at night.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Power-Gamers want to shine all the time no matter what the situation. If the PCs are engaged in diplomatic discussion, then a Power-Gamer will do what he can to make the outcome in his favor whether or not using potions to increase his/her Charisma, taking some obscure feat that allows them to talk better, or some magical item that does the same. To a power-gamer, it's all about the numbers and you can RP the rest. To a degree I feel this way, but no one wants to play with someone who can do it all and better than you.
I think that summarises the power-gamer player type very adequately. In a group of non-power-gamers the tricks of a power-gamer soon get old, but a game composed solely of power-gamers might be a very interesting spectacle. And a hell of a job for a DM, come to think of it.
quote:
When we're put into a combative situation, I want my character to shine in the role that is suited to him. If I roll up a Fighter there's a pretty good bet I'll be toe-to-toe with the BBEG swinging away or using some sort of "gimmick" to take it down. This might be tripping weapons, Power Attack/Cleave, Two-Weapon Fighting, etc... but I know my character's role. I DON'T try to outshine the cleric or wizard or rogue because I won't be as good as it and if I do, then that probably makes that PC feel less useful.
That would be my approach too. If a certain feat, skill or spell works for your character and for the game you should specialise in it or make it ones signature characteristic, without stepping into the class domain of your fellow party members too much. That's why the bard class is indeed not broken, because of his generalist nature the bard is able to be a spellcaster and a bit of a warrior, but never to the extent a wizard or fighter will be. |
| Kanya Skulls |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 19:02:12
What? O_o
You miss-anderstood me. I just corrected Diffan, because he's confusing Powergamers (who aren't bad players and RPrers) with Munchkins (who are just that what he described). It's two diffrent terms. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 18:52:31
Agreed. There are countless different approaches to gaming, and none is better or more valid than another. |
| Wenin |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 18:27:43
That wasn't really called for Kanya. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 18:20:40
I don't think there's a good solution to a collaborative activity one of whose members has divergent goals (here, including contradictory ideas about what the rules are for), can't be induced to cooperate, and has to be included for friendship reasons. Any jury-rigged fix is going to have more to do with the human beings involved than any subtleties of the rules discord. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 18:01:03
LOL!!!! That fits some players I know.... |
| Kanya Skulls |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 17:51:41
quote:
Diffan wrote:
Munchkins want to shine all the time no matter what the situation. If the PCs are engaged in diplomatic discussion, then a Munchkin will do what he can to make the outcome in his favor whether or not using potions to increase his/her Charisma, taking some obscure feat that allows them to talk better, or some magical item that does the same. To a munchkin, it's all about the numbers and you can RP the rest. To a degree I feel this way, but no one wants to play with someone who can do it all and better than you.
Fixed that for you. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 17:17:07
I'd have to agree with Alystra on the bard not being a broken class, far from it actually. While the Bard has lots of flavor and can be a lot of fun to RP, the class (from a mechanical stand point) is pretty poor. It's average BAB doesn't make for a meat-shield and thus isn't on the front lines much. Its incapable of dealing lots of damage like a rogue or scout and it's spellcasting isn't very focused. Hence why the bard is a very solid 5th player class, a class that works well when all the bases are covered. It also works good as the party's 'face' when dealing with NPCs and other diplomatic situations.
That being said, the warlock is by no means a powerful class either. Just check the link above to see it's Pros and Cons. Additionally, theres really nothing for the warlock to actually prestige class into since it only meets requiremnts of caster level instead of spell level.
And like you said his invocations AND eldritch blast are spell-like abilities and thus, I'd assume, subjected to the rituals done by the cultists of Shar, Dead Magic Zones, etc...
quote:
Originally posted by Mensch
What I don't understand is the appeal of power-gaming or roleplaying with a character which ultimately steals most of the thunder of one's fellow players. Even the perfectly standard bard in the group where I'm the DM is sometimes (jokingly) accused of being too much of a jack-of-all-trades and therefore a bit of a know-it-all. I can only imagine how the selfish, power-gaming cleric mentioned by Jorin would be perceived in the same group. I don't think he would last long.
Can't really say for sure. I think people consider me a power gamer but I prefer the term Character Optimizer  . So based off that, I can certainly see the appeal in creating a character that's good at the mechanics. I don't see the appeal in creating a character that doesn't contribute to the table in terms of combat, honestly.
When we're put into a combative situation, I want my character to shine in the role that is suited to him. If I roll up a Fighter there's a pretty good bet I'll be toe-to-toe with the BBEG swinging away or using some sort of "gimmick" to take it down. This might be tripping weapons, Power Attack/Cleave, Two-Weapon Fighting, etc... but I know my character's role. I DON'T try to outshine the cleric or wizard or rogue because I won't be as good as it and if I do, then that probably makes that PC feel less useful.
Power-Gamers want to shine all the time no matter what the situation. If the PCs are engaged in diplomatic discussion, then a Power-Gamer will do what he can to make the outcome in his favor whether or not using potions to increase his/her Charisma, taking some obscure feat that allows them to talk better, or some magical item that does the same. To a power-gamer, it's all about the numbers and you can RP the rest. To a degree I feel this way, but no one wants to play with someone who can do it all and better than you. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 16:49:20
mensch, bards are SUPPOSED to be a bit of a jakc-of-all-trades know-it-all. It's part of their basic ability set. They travel, they listen, they read and watch. They LEARN. Of course, they also sing, tell stories, and play with (some) magic. Naturally a bard with a lot of ranks in those skills is going to be very versitile and know a lot. That doesn't make them a power-gaming class by any means. In fact, I'd say it's one of the LEAST broken classes there is, because many of their skills don't see much use in a wilderness or dungeon campaign. They only really shine in urban adventures. |
| Rhewtani |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 15:56:59
Just curious, what were his last 12 characters in this campaign? |
| mensch |
Posted - 28 Jan 2011 : 15:01:00
I followed this scroll for a while and I'd like to confess that I really like reading stories about power-gamers who create character builds which are so completely broken or otherwise removed from what a roleplaying class should be. I found some scrolls a while back here on Candlekeep of a young player who detailed his own PCs, which read like World of Warcraft power builds on steroids. Something like a half-ogre Barbarian 6/Berserker 5/Battle Rager 3/Paladin 2, who got most of his stats by using the wish and miracle spells provided to him by a kind and extremely convenient cabal of wizards.
What I don't understand is the appeal of power-gaming or roleplaying with a character which ultimately steals most of the thunder of one's fellow players. Even the perfectly standard bard in the group where I'm the DM is sometimes (jokingly) accused of being too much of a jack-of-all-trades and therefore a bit of a know-it-all. I can only imagine how the selfish, power-gaming cleric mentioned by Jorin would be perceived in the same group. I don't think he would last long.
Is it the thrill of having the change of killing an enemy in one round perhaps? Or just the joy of bending the rules in extremity?
Are his fellow players still having fun, by the way? Or are they annoyed by the Warlock of Extreme Rule-bending? |
|
|
