| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Tamsar |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 16:11:46
I just recently bought a copy of Weapons of Legacy, and I really like the premise. Magic weapons that scale that scale with the characters if they perform certain legacy quests related to the weapons, to unlock additional powers.
Are there or have there ever been any "official" legacy weapons?
Edit: What if any existing weapons do you think would be good fits as Legacy weapons?
I think that Demron's Bane Blades could fill in quite admirably as Legacy weapons. |
| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 01 Jun 2010 : 18:30:53
Hmm, wonder if El's staff would count....? |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 20:14:52
You're thinking of One Thousand broken Dreams, a Drowbane rapier detailed in MoF. IIRC, it is not intelligent, not are most Holy Avengers, BTW, Sill. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 16:04:02
Wasn't Namarra a good sword? There was the Sword of Three Thousand Dreams or something in PGtF and an ancient Imaskarian LN sword there too. |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 11:25:01
I remember that. What I want is truly intelligent sword with good or neutral lawful alignment. Know any, aside from Holy Avenger? |
| Joran Nobleheart |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 11:08:45
I saw the mention of a weapon from Baldur's Gate II, Talshara, or at least I think I remember it from that game. Would Carsomyr be a weapon that would be a good idea as a weapon of legacy? It's the holy avenger that's saved by the PC from the red dragon Firkraag. |
| Amarel Derakanor |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 10:03:14
Hahaha! I had forgotten about that one. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 07:36:51
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
And how I'd like the weapon of legacy with sentience enough to talk. I would like to have such weapon that could give directions about how to make it stronger. Of course it would be dangerous to go on leash of every cursed sword though.
Just remember: Be careful what you wish for. |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 05:30:38
And how I'd like the weapon of legacy with sentience enough to talk. I would like to have such weapon that could give directions about how to make it stronger. Of course it would be dangerous to go on leash of every cursed sword though. |
| coach |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 05:19:42
what about the Darkswords used by the Moor Eagle clan of Vaasa, forged for then generations ago by Melvaunt Tanthul
not sure if they count as it's been awhile since i read the RotA trilogy |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 18:01:32
I agree. I think the idea is interesting, though I'd prefer it more tied to the weapon itself rather than the power of the wielder. But as it stands right now the drawbacks are way too high to justify using a WoL.
It's been a while since I've read the Earthdawn game books, but I much preferred their method of dealing with legendary weapons. First you had to learn its name and history, what built its legend, and then you had to recreate certain key moments in its history. Each feat was harder to do, so would naturally come later, but if you were really ambitious (or really lucky) you could unlock the more powerful abilities at lower circles (ED's version of levels). And each time you activated the next level you gained XP, you didn't lose it. Or hit points, or BAB, or anything else. That's a much better way of handling WoL, in my opinion. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 16:51:19
quote:
Originally posted by dracons
I've done that too Ashe. But I was also bringing it up to others who seem to think the feats are required to use them.
I had an argument with the roleplaying game orderer at Powells bookstore, because he thought players had to take the feats, I pointed that out and his eyes bulge.
Personally alot the abilities are meh. I like the story aspects of it, but to force players to take the feats to use them is stupid. That's likely why Wizards made them bonus feats. They are still costly GP wise, (and I really don't enforce that as it is. I just make it quests harder to do, and only some GP cost)
I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of having to sacrifice something in exchange for some abilities of the weapons (-1 attack and so forth)....but meh, still intersting idea. |
| Dracons |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 15:40:22
I've done that too Ashe. But I was also bringing it up to others who seem to think the feats are required to use them.
I had an argument with the roleplaying game orderer at Powells bookstore, because he thought players had to take the feats, I pointed that out and his eyes bulge.
Personally alot the abilities are meh. I like the story aspects of it, but to force players to take the feats to use them is stupid. That's likely why Wizards made them bonus feats. They are still costly GP wise, (and I really don't enforce that as it is. I just make it quests harder to do, and only some GP cost) |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 15:00:30
quote:
Originally posted by dracons
What are you talking about? Page 8 and 9, under Legacy Rituals. Under 9 it flat out states
A legacy item's wielder who completes a given ritual immediately gains a bonus legacy feat: Least Leagacy, Lesser Legacy, or greater legacy. Nowhere does it say that character must use their own feats, they are BONUS feats, much like what monks get at some levels, the wizard gets for metamagic, etc etc.
Oops... Sorry 'bout that. I'm away from my books at the moment and got it confused with the UA Legendary weapons. |
| Dracons |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 14:36:05
What are you talking about? Page 8 and 9, under Legacy Rituals. Under 9 it flat out states
A legacy item's wielder who completes a given ritual immediately gains a bonus legacy feat: Least Leagacy, Lesser Legacy, or greater legacy. Nowhere does it say that character must use their own feats, they are BONUS feats, much like what monks get at some levels, the wizard gets for metamagic, etc etc. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 14:10:33
quote:
Originally posted by dracons
So characters must take the feats to unlock the powers? I always read in that book if they do those quests, pray and give up the amount of gold they get that feat free rather then using that one every three levels.
The quests/prayer/gold is the fluff requisite for taking the feat. If you don't have a feat slot, you're not going to be able to get it for free. |
| Dracons |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 13:52:55
So characters must take the feats to unlock the powers? I always read in that book if they do those quests, pray and give up the amount of gold they get that feat free rather then using that one every three levels. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 28 May 2010 : 13:47:06
There can easily be a debate as to wether or not Moonblades are or aren't Legacy items. Mechanically they have never been statted as Legacy items as per the Weapons of Legacy rulebook. However, it would probably be a much better system for them, and I would definately adapt them as such. Of course everyone may do as they please. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 22:42:10
Arilyn is a unique case in many different ways and shouldn't be used as a basis for comparing other moonblade wielders. She got the blade as a fluke, after alienating the rest of her family. I'm sure any one of them (especially Amlaruil) could have told her exactly what all the powers were, if she wanted to. The same would be the case in virtually all other situations.
The other problem with using a moonblade as a weapon of legacy is what happens if you have a moonblade that's never been used by anyone? Plenty of gold elven families have blades that have never been used, it's at least possible one of them could pass to the family's first moon elven member ever and judge them worthy. But no matter how powerful they become, that blade is only ever going to have one power: the one they eventually give to it. That's completely wrong for a weapon of legacy. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 21:38:38
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I would think that the Moonblades are great Legacy weapons. Though the powers come over generations, each owner has to unlock them for themselves, PLUS adding a new power to it. The fact that they have to remain within a certain family, and kill non-elven owners, or those not from the right family, keeps them from becoming TOO powerful.
The idea behind the Legacy Items is that they gain multiple powers as the possessor learns to 'unlock' them. They are great thematically and because you can have a mid- or high-level character who can say 'I've had this sword since I took it off that Hobgoblin Chieftain' rather than selling a (once highly-prized) +1 sword when he finds or can afford a +2. It allows a DM to give a great backstory to a given item and for a player to really value that item, even 10 levels after they obtained it.
I point this all out because moonblades don't work that way: When a wielder is accepted by a given MB, that wielder has access to all the blade's powers, all at once. Most 'modern' (i.e. 1350's era or later Moonblades have had at least a half-dozen or more owners. As such, they have scads of powers, and are too powerful for low-level PCs.
Not necessarily. Arilyn did not know all the powers her moonblade held, she discovered some of them over time.
That's my point on this. It doesn't necessarily mean that the user can't use the powers in the legacy item, just that they don't know they are there. |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 21:08:24
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I would think that the Moonblades are great Legacy weapons. Though the powers come over generations, each owner has to unlock them for themselves, PLUS adding a new power to it. The fact that they have to remain within a certain family, and kill non-elven owners, or those not from the right family, keeps them from becoming TOO powerful.
The idea behind the Legacy Items is that they gain multiple powers as the possessor learns to 'unlock' them. They are great thematically and because you can have a mid- or high-level character who can say 'I've had this sword since I took it off that Hobgoblin Chieftain' rather than selling a (once highly-prized) +1 sword when he finds or can afford a +2. It allows a DM to give a great backstory to a given item and for a player to really value that item, even 10 levels after they obtained it.
I point this all out because moonblades don't work that way: When a wielder is accepted by a given MB, that wielder has access to all the blade's powers, all at once. Most 'modern' (i.e. 1350's era or later Moonblades have had at least a half-dozen or more owners. As such, they have scads of powers, and are too powerful for low-level PCs. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 21:00:44
I would think that the Moonblades are great Legacy weapons. Though the powers come over generations, each owner has to unlock them for themselves, PLUS adding a new power to it. The fact that they have to remain within a certain family, and kill non-elven owners, or those not from the right family, keeps them from becoming TOO powerful. |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 20:51:39
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Not so much, IMO. Moonblades have their own mechanic that's intimately tied with their backstory, though if you wanted to call them generational legacy items, I wouldn't have too much difficulty with that. But the idea of a moonblade is that it gets stronger the more people in the family have used it, not how strong the current wielder is.
You know... I agree with you totally, Hoondatha, but what about a variant Moonblade? A Champion Moonblade? When the elves need a champion (as they so often do) maybe one of the inactive moonblades (or a different type of weapon altogether)can be given to a champion of great worth, and that champion can (if they be of strong heart, etc.) unlock generations of powers in one lifetime?
FWIW, I tend to think of Legacy items in my game as constructs of certain societies, such as the Flowering-era elves, the Sarrukh, and the Imaskari (I leave out the Netherese, as they had little interest in 'real' magic items once Mythallar were innovated). |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 20:45:35
Really, any multi-powered item *can* be a legacy item. Each player in my group has one item that is effectively leveling with them. The Paladin has a sunblade that started out(@ 10th level) as a +2 undead bane bastard sword that could use a light spell 1/day and went up from there. The Wizard has a staff that is basically becoming a Staff of Power as it grows in might.
And Jakk, I'm glad you like it (my feat-less legacy item use, that is). I just felt that using the feats made the fighters overpowered as compared to the other classes in that regard, not to mention that as feats are the primary form of character customization in 3.x, I thought it limited character development.
The OTHER endto legacy weapons is that you can give a mucho-uber item to a BBEG and when the PCs get it, it's weaksauce. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 19:52:53
Not so much, IMO. Moonblades have their own mechanic that's intimately tied with their backstory, though if you wanted to call them generational legacy items, I wouldn't have too much difficulty with that. But the idea of a moonblade is that it gets stronger the more people in the family have used it, not how strong the current wielder is. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 18:46:49
*cough*Moonblades*cough* |
| Jakk |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 18:45:06
I'll agree with KotG, the Baneblades are excellent candidates; I'll have to refresh my memory on Talshara, tho. 
I think that another good candidate is found in Undermountain: the greatsword Flame of the North. Its powers as described make it a great lower-level acquisition, but it could easily be added to as its wielder advances, and it has the right kind of detailed write-up for a legacy item as well.
I also like how you handle activation of powers, KotG... there are enough feats out there to fill your character's slots with; legacy items are the kind of thing that's best handled in story and game anyway. I'll be using that when I get back behind the DM screen.  |
| Gelcur |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 18:19:13
I know of at least one official Legacy item, I have a feeling I read more somewhere, I will have to keep an eye open for them. Page 214 of Expedition to Undermountain details the Crown Adamant as an official legacy item for the Realms. |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 18:07:47
Talshara springs immediately to mind, and the baneblades are good choices as you point out, Tamsar. I also like and use legacy items in my game, though I don't make ppl take feats to upgrade them, I just set up appropriate story lines to upgrade them;i.e., a warrior wearing a suit of legacy armor finds out that it makes him immune to fire, but this sort of power isn't activated until he's breathed on by a red dragon of a certain age. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 17:41:52
As far as I know (and can find with my Search-Fu), there were no official conversions/creations of Realms-specific weapons of legacy. |
