| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Lady Morbannaon |
Posted - 14 Dec 2009 : 04:03:11
I'm planning on over Winter Holidays putting on a drow campaign and although having read through multiple books on drow I'm still intrigued and want to see what others thoughts are on the subject of a drow monk follower of Lolth.
Do people think they should exist? Is there anything to prevent them from doing so? I'm a bit jumpy about allowing Monks since they have a more lawful nature about them and Lolth being more chaos, somehow it just doesn't fit to me.
Anyway what are people's thoughts on the matter? I'd be interested to see what you all think. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 12 Jan 2010 : 23:00:57
Thank you muchly, kind sir! I find that they make great ones, once the daylight problem is taken care of. Use Daylight Adaptaion or a cleric or mage with lots of darkness spells, and it's not a problem. Of course, the drow pirates in my realm also often have their ships fitted with special magic items called Figureheads of Night, which helps eliminate the problem altogether for some- including the exposure of drow equipment to sunlight. Nasty devils, they are!! If you want to use drow pirates, I suggest the swashbuckler, rogue, and fighter classes all work well, as does, oddly enough, the bard (a windsinger from Dragon Magazine is great for this!!). Ship's clerics and wizards are a must, and perhaps a sea-based ranger or druid. |
| Cleric Generic |
Posted - 12 Jan 2010 : 18:05:33
Bwahaha! Gota find some way to work Drow pirates into my game now *Yarrr!* Cheers for the idea Alystra. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 11 Jan 2010 : 22:19:02
Personally, I tend to just ignore the people who cite canon, and continue doing things my own way. Granted, I think some of the religion/gender/house/race stuff with drow gets a little too much attention, but when you weave it all together, you get a really complex mix of plots and intrigue, and if used properly, can lead to some really harrowing experiences for PC's. Especially if you add some off-the-wall side aspect into the mix. In my homebrew world, for example, the drow have been not only driven into the Underdark, but completely off the main continent, as well. They have even taken up piracy as a means to sustain their lifestyle and culture, which takes care of the surface raids. Matrons still rule many Houses, but because piracy is a male-dominant profession, there is a hefty number of male-led Houses that have grown in power to challenge the status-quo. Add the religion and racial hatred for the high elves on the coastal mainland into that, and it becomes a nasty situation to land in. And the top House is ruled by a male, who declared himself a king and started an alliance with all the other male-led Houses. It just gets deeper from there. The point is, you can use as much or as little of the canon as you like. Lolth is still the main goddess in mine, but she does not have as big a stranglehold on them, and other faiths have popped up in her shadow. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 05 Jan 2010 : 18:11:17
quote:
Originally posted by Cleric Generic
I always thought that option 2 was the official policy, myself. Even with every scrap of lore braught together you've still just got part of the picture. I seriously doubt many people outside of forums like this have put so much thought into the Vhaeraunite faith (for example), and the lore as written (in the DnD books, at least) is only really meant as a platform for your own material.
I agree. I'm sure everyone else does too. The problem, of course, is once you branch off down your own track a newcomer to your game may very well start citing canon at you.
At some point, you just start making House Rules and House Canon. The problem, as we've been discussing, is that once you've ascribed intelligence and intelligent actions to your evil deities a new piece of canon appears that show that deity acting counter to what you know.
In a way, that's the problem with Candlekeep. We all have our own take on the lore, and we often have folks encouraging us to do so, using the same argument as you, which is basically "It's your game, do what you like". Yet once you start discussing your own take, you will always get someone citing canon. So we can all take option 2, but we are often pulled back to option 1.
Here, of course, we try yo make sense of all the information out there. But we never take the scalpel and trim away the dead stuff. If something is officially published it becomes lore. So, in the end, it doesn't matter how much you use it as a "platform for your own material" if you enjoy what you've done and you want to discuss it, you will end up wishing you hadn't. |
| Cleric Generic |
Posted - 05 Jan 2010 : 17:42:23
damn double posts... |
| Cleric Generic |
Posted - 05 Jan 2010 : 17:41:53
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
It boils down to the over-simplistic representation again. If Vhaeraunite belief is simply a case of being a mirror to Lolthite belief then it fails, simply because it's just a mirror reflection.
As you say, an appealing aspect of Vhaeraunite faith is gender equality. They also accept half-drow too.
If you like the drow and you've been interested in them for a few years then you have two choices:
1. Restrict yourself to canon and grow increasingly depressed.
2. Take some of the canon as a foundation, and develop things in a logical, rewarding direction.
I always thought that option 2 was the official policy, myself. Even with every scrap of lore braught together you've still just got part of the picture. I seriously doubt many people outside of forums like this have put so much thought into the Vhaeraunite faith (for example), and the lore as written (in the DnD books, at least) is only really meant as a platform for your own material.
So, I'd argue, the Vhaeraunite faith is whatever you damn well want it to be; that is basic and marginal or large and complex, as suits your needs and desires.
e.g. my interpretation of Vhaeraun and co has always been as a bunch of anti-establishment / anarchist, who would be hurling molotovs and bombing temples if not for their drow guile and tact. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 05 Jan 2010 : 15:59:33
It boils down to the over-simplistic representation again. If Vhaeraunite belief is simply a case of being a mirror to Lolthite belief then it fails, simply because it's just a mirror reflection.
As you say, an appealing aspect of Vhaeraunite faith is gender equality. They also accept half-drow too.
If you like the drow and you've been interested in them for a few years then you have two choices:
1. Restrict yourself to canon and grow increasingly depressed.
2. Take some of the canon as a foundation, and develop things in a logical, rewarding direction.
|
| Zanan |
Posted - 05 Jan 2010 : 11:19:12
Point is that while this may be one of Vhaeraun's aims, he and his clergy are hardly portrayed as doing somesuch. (Much like what the novels et al do to Lolth and Kiaransalee, of course.) It's more like Vhaeraunian clergy is running about trying to thwart the Lolthites on the surface and below. Or hunting Eilistraeens. Rather than concentrating on their own affairs, actually going for gender-equality (which they also have de jure in their "dogma", but de facto it is male-ruled from top to bottom) and building their own little "empire". The whole strict religious segregation issue amongst the drow is quite annoying to read, i.e. stereotypes all over again. And if they don't use the religious stuff, they present the males from females troubles or serve the inter-house/school war diet. It is all a kind of simplistic a view for my liking. Hence it was quite interesting to read about those three settlements in the Forest of Mir, one of which apparently wasn't that bothered about religion (or at least no religious dominance was mentioned). Likewise Sshamath, where religion was playing second fiddle. There though, you had the instant swap of power-gender again, with stereotypical wizard-males ruling 90% of the arcane school. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 05 Jan 2010 : 10:10:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You folks are naming all the reasons I love Vhaeraun. 
Nah ... never liked him, as he solely comes over as the spoilt-brat sort of chap, only willing to harm his mum and her lot, rather than walk tall on his own.
I dunno... With his goals of getting the drow out from under her and living on the surface, I think he's doing more than being a spoiled brat.
I don't see (and don't play) Vhaeraun as a spoiled brat. (After all with parents like his, how could he be spoilt!)
Vhaeraun's main problem has been getting the drow back on the surface. His other problem has been getting them to act more cohesively. I tend to play Vhaeraun CN, although he'd be fun as a LE god too. Basically, he's a good foil to Lolth.
Vhaeraun and Eilistraee would be better served by putting aside their differences and acting as an alliance. That would be fun. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 05 Jan 2010 : 10:05:59
quote:
Originally posted by Cleric Generic
Indeed. If you give the bad guys 3d character, personality, motivation etc instead of portraying them as thugish idiots, you run the risk of providing grounds for sympathy and confusing people. :)
And that would never do.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Jan 2010 : 22:59:03
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You folks are naming all the reasons I love Vhaeraun.
Nah ... never liked him, as he solely comes over as the spoilt-brat sort of chap, only willing to harm his mum and her lot, rather than walk tall on his own.
I dunno... With his goals of getting the drow out from under her and living on the surface, I think he's doing more than being a spoiled brat. |
| Cleric Generic |
Posted - 04 Jan 2010 : 18:29:46
Indeed. If you give the bad guys 3d character, personality, motivation etc instead of portraying them as thugish idiots, you run the risk of providing grounds for sympathy and confusing people. :) |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 04 Jan 2010 : 11:22:44
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
In the end, WotC et al solely used them to recreate the plain chaotic evil deities for plain chaotic evil monsters... Something they would have done, had the novels and stereoytpes been applied to them all.
I agree. There's still the tendency to portray the bad guys as just dumb thugs and can't help being daft. Some of the novels have Kiaransalee and Lolth acting and speaking like 'Valley Girls', which sort of understates the high Intelligence both deities are supposed to have.
The sterotype is that evil is monolithic, lumpen and a senseless force of destruction. But so's an earthquake.
As Wooly says: "evil with a purpose" is more appealing. In game terms, this gives the PCs something to discover, it gives them good RP opportunities and it should mean they matched against an intelligent motivated villain.
In story terms, the smarter, stronger and craftier your antagonist the better your protagonist has to be. Michael Stracinsky (of Babylon 5) said that the aim of writing is to put your hero up a tree and then throw rocks at him. (Tolkien had Bilbo up a tree, then set the forest on fire.) All too often, what we see is our hero up a tree, and that's it.
That said, it depends on your audience. Dumb evil is easier to understand, alignment means that it's OK to slaughter orc children because 'Hey, they're evil'. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 04 Jan 2010 : 11:11:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You folks are naming all the reasons I love Vhaeraun.
Nah ... never liked him, as he solely comes over as the spoilt-brat sort of chap, only willing to harm his mum and her lot, rather than walk tall on his own.
As for Lolth and Kiaransalee, it is kind of sad that especially the novels painted them in the chaotic and violent fashion, as there is so much more to both faiths (if not deities), as presented in Demihuman Deities. In the end, WotC et al solely used them to recreate the plain chaotic evil deities for plain chaotic evil monsters. Hence I can only hail the work put in by 3rd party publishers to create more diverse panthei for the drow elsewhere. I for one tend to keep a lit on the whole religous stuff within drow society, as it is IMHO usually blown out of all proportion, given how "long" the drow have survived within the setting without obliterating themselves time and again. Something they would have done, had the novels and stereoytpes been applied to them all. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 23:45:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You folks are naming all the reasons I love Vhaeraun.
I've never really cared for him myself, but I happen to agree that this is some worthwhile consideration for the deity.
I prefer evil with a purpose to random evil. 
As do I. I suppose I've just never been all that enamoured with Vhaeraun's portfolio. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 16:43:55
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You folks are naming all the reasons I love Vhaeraun.
I've never really cared for him myself, but I happen to agree that this is some worthwhile consideration for the deity.
I prefer evil with a purpose to random evil. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 16:28:37
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You folks are naming all the reasons I love Vhaeraun.
That's because we're on commission. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 16:26:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You folks are naming all the reasons I love Vhaeraun.
I've never really cared for him myself, but I happen to agree that this is some worthwhile consideration for the deity.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 15:03:49
You folks are naming all the reasons I love Vhaeraun. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 13:27:05
Exactly! The way the drow are portrayed are often an opportunity lost. Which is a shame, as great heroes need great villains.
Many an empire in history has solved the power struggles by expanding. In fact, things tend to go wrong when the empire stops expanding.
If a matron finds her daughters becoming too competitive then encouraging them to set up on their own helps.
As for drow deities, Vhaeraun would be a much better drow deity, he has a purpose and a broader tolerance of possible worshippers and clerics. Any deity except Lolth seems much better. Lolth would be better suited as a demon in the Abyss. Called on by a few, not by many. |
| Mouse |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 09:52:27
Their intensely clever schemes against each other appeals to me too, actually, but it's apparent lack of direction makes them seem ineffectual villains sometimes. The easiest way to get the drow to forget their dastardly schemes to kill you is to just leave town. They'll soon forget about any schemes they had based around PC's or nations, because i guess if it's not in the direct vicinity of their little inward-turned city-states, they don't care.
That's why the Vhaerunian surface drow seem way scarier to me. Imagine if a whole city of drow escaped to the surface, banded together and starting plotting as one, terrifyingly devious mind? It make the Zhentarim pee their night-black pants. Well, except for maybe Manshoon. Too busy being a magnificent bastard.
"Don't mind me, I'm just being more crazy awesome then your whole species!"
What a loony  . |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 09:35:52
quote:
Originally posted by Mouse
I personally found Lolth to be a somewhat...ineffectual Goddess despite her power, and her worshippers even more so. Lolth looses to the Seledrine, becomes cursed, twisted and evil, loosing Corellian Latherian's love, and immediately proceeds to tell her people to......sulk underground for the next six thousand years.
Let's check off a little list: Bitter, Spiteful, Does Mean Little Nothings to Get Back At Her Former Love, Lost Husband, Lots of Children She's Thoughtlessly Cruel and Regularly Manipulates Into Hating her Former Lover.
Although Lolth is the major goddess of the drow, it doesn't mean she likes them as worshippers. I see Lolth as a goddess who gets the drow to act the way they do because she likes it that way. She is mean, spiteful and petty. She is the worse punishment the drow have had inflicted on them.
In my games, I've often depicted the drow as tragic. Priestesses have to sacrifice a lover - and it must be a lover, not some bloke from the kitchen. They have to demonstrate that they are willing to give up happiness for Lolth, and all for the slight chance that they might rise to a position of power. Mothers have to sacrifice their children.
It doesn't make a lot of sense really. Just like Lolth really.
To me, the drow are appealing because of their Byzantine in-fighting. The Houses are like the city states in Classical Greece, constantly squabbling and losing sight of the bigger picture because he called my Sacred Band gay.
I've often thought that the best thing would have been to have the Dark Selarine form House Illythiiri - that is act as a tight pantheon. In fact, in my games that is what happened.
Lolth became Matron, Vhaeraun was Elder Boy, Kiaransalee First Daughter.
Another way, of course, is to have House Lolth, House Vhaeraun, etc.
Anyway, to cut a long ramble short. I agree with what you say. |
| Mouse |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 09:13:00
I liked the Blackened Fist Monk/Assassins from the Underdark book, personally. They seemed like a more effective sort of evil then the Priestesses of Lolth. They were strict, disciplined, and not thoughtlessly cruel (no they put active thought into it).
I had one used as a recurring villain in a campaign focused on East Faerun, working for the Red Wizards (geographically speaking Thay is over Undrek'Thoz). He was generally agreed to be a badass, since he could do things like Death Attack with his bare hands.
I personally found Lolth to be a somewhat...ineffectual Goddess despite her power, and her worshippers even more so. Lolth looses to the Seledrine, becomes cursed, twisted and evil, loosing Corellian Latherian's love, and immediately proceeds to tell her people to......sulk underground for the next six thousand years.
They fight amongst each other, only go to the surface long enough do short raids that gets them nothing but the occasional dead elf, make evil "plots" that involve killing each other over and over, with their priestesses repeatedly showing disinterest in the surface.
Let's check off a little list: Bitter, Spiteful, Does Mean Little Nothings to Get Back At Her Former Love, Lost Husband, Lots of Children She's Thoughtlessly Cruel and Regularly Manipulates Into Hating her Former Lover.
Yup, it's official: Lolth is the Greater Goddess of Bitter Divorced Wives who Regularly Abuse Their Kids  . The drow should take a page out of the Banites book and get their act together . |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 02 Jan 2010 : 14:03:13
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Hence my remark re the "old" AD&D alignments given for her worshippers and clergy.
*goes back to read it*
Yep, I agree with your remark. I also don't envisage any drow monk acting like a Shaolin monk. Instead, they're a type of fighter who has no need of weapons - much as you said. They also follow a code that allows for the general drow unpleasantness but gives them a few laws to obey, which they do (or they successfully appear to be doing so.) |
| Zanan |
Posted - 02 Jan 2010 : 13:29:29
Hence my remark re the "old" AD&D alignments given for her worshippers and clergy. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 01 Jan 2010 : 14:57:40
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Morbannaon
I'm planning on over Winter Holidays putting on a drow campaign and although having read through multiple books on drow I'm still intrigued and want to see what others thoughts are on the subject of a drow monk follower of Lolth.
Do people think they should exist? Is there anything to prevent them from doing so? I'm a bit jumpy about allowing Monks since they have a more lawful nature about them and Lolth being more chaos, somehow it just doesn't fit to me.
Anyway what are people's thoughts on the matter? I'd be interested to see what you all think.
Back in the day, I ran a lot of games using the Menzoberranzan setting. I had monk characters employed in the Sorcere Spellguard. I used the reasoning that their ability to fight without metal weapons was useful to the wizards of Sorcere because metal interfers with arcane energies.
As to whether there could be a drow monk follower of Lolth. It all depends on how hung up you are on alignment. Many people will probably tell you that a lawful character can't serve a chaotic goddess. Yet if a code exists for a chaotic deity then surely the monk follows the code more than the deity. Page 13 of the 2nd Edn Menzoberranzan says: "Menzoberranzan is governed by the Way of Lolth, a code of behaviour known in detail by every high priestess."
There's no reason in my mind why your monk can't adhere to that code. |
| Neil Bishop |
Posted - 31 Dec 2009 : 01:28:57
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by Neil Bishop
The one-step rule only applies to clerics. Non-spellcasters don't have to abide by the one-step rule.
One step rule applies to all divine casters, be they clerics, druids, blackguards, paladins, rangers or whatever.
Sorry, that's actually what I meant to say. I used cleric as shorthand for divine spellcaster. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 30 Dec 2009 : 23:36:13
This is why they have variants- like the Paladins of chaos or what-not. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 24 Dec 2009 : 08:28:20
quote:
Originally posted by Neil Bishop
The one-step rule only applies to clerics. Non-spellcasters don't have to abide by the one-step rule.
One step rule applies to all divine casters, be they clerics, druids, blackguards, paladins, rangers or whatever. |
| Neil Bishop |
Posted - 24 Dec 2009 : 04:02:50
The one-step rule only applies to clerics. Non-spellcasters don't have to abide by the one-step rule. |
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