| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| kysus |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 01:11:03
Ok this question came up in my forgotten realms group and brought on a huge debate which is still going on right now so i will put it to the people in the know and see what u all think of it.
Is having or making a golem considered slavery?
To kinda explain when making a golem one binds elementals against their will to give the golem its will. from what ive seen of the elementals stats they have intelligence just like any other life form so knowing that does binding one into to a golem for any length to time considered slavery or make the person doing so an evil person and how does that work for the good wizards in the realms that make use of golems like elminster or the seven sisters if it is considered slavery> |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Oct 2008 : 19:34:29
Your musings are a pleasure to read, as always, Gray. 
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Well, the existence of genasi seems to point in favor that there is a genetic, inborn component. So I don't know if my theory flies. But it is an interesting question.
I think that there is a 'basic building-block' lifeform for the Elemental Chaos (the Elementals), that are just animating spirits as you say, but then there are 'higher-ups', like the Dgen, Monoliths, and the Elemental Lords (which have more permanent, 'physical' forms, and have an invested intrest in theiir element). The 'higher-ups' would be the ones breeding with mortals.
Now, to take that a step further, we could assume ALL planes have this very basic lifeform - this 'spirit' that is able to manifest itself physically. The power of such manifestations would depend on the power (level) of the spitit (they would gain experience just like any PC would over time). What that means is that these spirits are willing to be summoned, so that they can gain experience and become even more powerful - perhaps even becoming one of the 'lords' of their home planes.
Whats interesting is that this shoe-horns nicely into older lore concerning Lemures and Manes, which would be the basic building-blocks (spirits) of the lower planes (now the Nine Hells and the Abyss). In fact, Fey (Kami) could very well be the physical manifestations of the Prime Material, with Will-O-Wisps perhaps being the most basic (and unintelligent) form.
So in essence, all these 'spirits' would be able to manifest physical forms dependent upon their own power level, and would become the 'missing link' between 'material' and sentient life.
I love thinking about this stuff. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 08 Oct 2008 : 09:19:46
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
This lore about summoned creatures not really dying was clearly thought up for the metagame reason of avoiding moral quagmires about slavery and compelling good or unwilling creatures to fight to their own death. But the in-game ramifications are interesting and fun to think about. Note that this is only for summoned critters and not ones that are gated in, who then have an actual presence on the Material Plane and can thus be killed for real.
You know, it could be argued that elementals are a lot like dybbuks and loumara and other possessing spirits. The elemental could be seen as an animating spirit that is immaterial and bodiless, and just composes its body on the fly out of material it possesses that it finds on the plane of its origin. Kind of like that giant rock monster in Galaxy Quest. It wasn't made of rock, exactly, the rocks were just caught up and suspended within it's energy field.
Now that I think about it, it could be that all elementals are just one race, simply animating whatever substance is around them, so that on the Plane of Fire, an elemental was a "Fire" elemental, and water elementals were made of water because that is where they came from. Water may simply be the substance that water elementals are used to animating, they are skilled at it, know how to do it, comfortable animating H20. Similar to being left handed or right handed, you can't write well with your off-hand, but if you practiced with it, or lost the use of your dominant hand, you could retrain yourself to use the other one.
Which begs the question: if say a fire elemental fell through a portal into the plane of Earth, and it's fire body burned out or exhausted its fuel after a time, could it learn to animate rock instead? Or would it just die?
Is the substance that an elemental can animate "set in stone" if you will. Can they switch it up? Or are they stuck from birth with the one element? Is it a racial/genetic thing? Or a learned/nurture thing? Well, the existence of genasi seems to point in favor that there is a genetic, inborn component. So I don't know if my theory flies. But it is an interesting question.
Actually, I like that hypothesis... if elementals are simply a binding life force surrounded by whatever element happened to be at hand when they formed their body, it would neatly explain the coalescence of the Elemental Chaos... but I'm still outraged by the end of the Blood War.  |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 08 Oct 2008 : 07:09:34
If I remember right, outsiders (usually) are their souls. There is no soul/body duality. When they are slain, they cease to exist, their soul doesn't go someplace else.
Except, well, I think the soul-stuff of an outsider, the incarnum, or residuum, or quintessence, or whatever you want to call it, gets absorbed by the plane where it is. It becomes "one with the universe", unless it goes on to some other existence of which we are not aware. But they don't have afterlives.
Oddly, summoned creatures, are said not to die. Rather if they are slain before the duration of the spell ends, then they pop up back wherever they were in their home plane and continue with what they were doing. I don't think this has ever been fully explained or explored. It's as if they don't really leave their home plane but their consciousness gets highjacked to animate a virtual reality version of themselves on the Material Plane. It's as if they are playing a WOW virtual LARP. I don't know if they actually disappear from their home plane or just slip into a temporary narcoleptic coma. On the Material Plane a material body is appears for them, presumably crafted by the spell, and their consciousness or spirit possesses it and animates it for the spell duration.
This lore about summoned creatures not really dying was clearly thought up for the metagame reason of avoiding moral quagmires about slavery and compelling good or unwilling creatures to fight to their own death. But the in-game ramifications are interesting and fun to think about. Note that this is only for summoned critters and not ones that are gated in, who then have an actual presence on the Material Plane and can thus be killed for real.
You know, it could be argued that elementals are a lot like dybbuks and loumara and other possessing spirits. The elemental could be seen as an animating spirit that is immaterial and bodiless, and just composes its body on the fly out of material it possesses that it finds on the plane of its origin. Kind of like that giant rock monster in Galaxy Quest. It wasn't made of rock, exactly, the rocks were just caught up and suspended within it's energy field.
Now that I think about it, it could be that all elementals are just one race, simply animating whatever substance is around them, so that on the Plane of Fire, an elemental was a "Fire" elemental, and water elementals were made of water because that is where they came from. Water may simply be the substance that water elementals are used to animating, they are skilled at it, know how to do it, comfortable animating H20. Similar to being left handed or right handed, you can't write well with your off-hand, but if you practiced with it, or lost the use of your dominant hand, you could retrain yourself to use the other one.
Which begs the question: if say a fire elemental fell through a portal into the plane of Earth, and it's fire body burned out or exhausted its fuel after a time, could it learn to animate rock instead? Or would it just die?
Is the substance that an elemental can animate "set in stone" if you will. Can they switch it up? Or are they stuck from birth with the one element? Is it a racial/genetic thing? Or a learned/nurture thing? Well, the existence of genasi seems to point in favor that there is a genetic, inborn component. So I don't know if my theory flies. But it is an interesting question.
|
| Jakk |
Posted - 08 Oct 2008 : 01:23:58
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
In the 2e book The Inner Planes, it's said that on the planes the elementals are just as smart as humans, but when they're summoned to the Prime they become "mindless brutes." This would imply that the very process of pulling an elemental from its home reduces its intelligence. No mention is made about what happens when the elementals come back to their home, but my guess would be that their Int goes back to normal.
This arguably makes any kind of elemental summoning evil, in that it strips intelligence from those summoned. Not that that's stopped countless generations of summoners. On the other hand, you wouldn't know this unless you've travelled the Wheel and actually met elementals in their home, which opens up the whole "is it evil is you don't know it's evil?" can of worms.
Relating this to the OP, you could logically extrapolate that removing an elemental from their home in any way robs them of most or all of their intelligence. That doesn't solve the moral question of creating golems, but rather broadens it to include all methods of summoning.
I wouldn't say that the summoning is stripping them of their intelligence (that's domestication, which is not instantly reversible). What the summoner is doing is constraining their intelligence in the manner of a dominate person/monster spell or similar magic; that's why it's instantly reversible when the summoned creature returns home. As a result, the summoning isn't inherently evil unless the summoner has encountered the creatures on their home plane and knows that they are more intelligent than they behave when summoned. Of course, as a responsible good-aligned spellcaster, you have the duty to consider all ramifications of your actions, and if you don't know what a summoning does to the target creature, you shouldn't use it, right? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 22:44:30
Hmmmm... You guys got me thinking, now.
You know how when a 'prime' dies they go to the 'afterlife' (outer planes)? You know how their 'mind' makes a pit-stop in the Astral, but the soul continues on to whatever 'reward' (or punishment) they are headed to? Then, of course, if they get ressurected they stop by the Astral and pickup their mind (memories and what-not) on the way back to the Prime.
What if... it works the other way around for Outsiders? 
At least those from the Inner Planes. In a weird sort of way, an elemental being 'dies' when it travels to the Prime, so it leaves it's mind in the astral (or Ethereal?) on the way to being summoned.
Thats kind of scarey, in a way - every time you summon an elemental, it dies a little inside (Okay, not exactly, but it sounds poetic that way).
I would like someone with a good set of 'Planer Teeth' to try and tackle this - is Gray Richardson around? |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 01:49:54
Interestingly, this contradicts both 1st and 3rd edition lore which states that there are elemental "animals" and other less intelligent lifeforms in the Inner Planes. Of course, there were fewer varieties of elementals is earlier editions of the game that could be summoned. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 22:59:56
In the 2e book The Inner Planes, it's said that on the planes the elementals are just as smart as humans, but when they're summoned to the Prime they become "mindless brutes." This would imply that the very process of pulling an elemental from its home reduces its intelligence. No mention is made about what happens when the elementals come back to their home, but my guess would be that their Int goes back to normal.
This arguably makes any kind of elemental summoning evil, in that it strips intelligence from those summoned. Not that that's stopped countless generations of summoners. On the other hand, you wouldn't know this unless you've travelled the Wheel and actually met elementals in their home, which opens up the whole "is it evil is you don't know it's evil?" can of worms.
Relating this to the OP, you could logically extrapolate that removing an elemental from their home in any way robs them of most or all of their intelligence. That doesn't solve the moral question of creating golems, but rather broadens it to include all methods of summoning. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 16:44:39
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I meant primates... sorry. 
It's OK, it makes sense now. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 08:46:09
Of course, "sapients" (with the t) is a general term referring to all intelligent creatures, hypothetical extraterrestrials included... so the term still almost works. Far better than it works for humankind, anyway... "homo sapiens" literally means "wise man"... and everything we do as a species seems directed at disproving this appellation. That's why I spend so much time here... Earth is a scary, scary place, and our species makes it that way. As Bill Watterson once said in "Calvin and Hobbes": "Sometimes I think that the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
[edit] Back on topic... it's only cruelty if the golem is intelligent (like the warforged from Eberron, which are very cool creations; I imported them into my Realms almost immediately after picking up the Eberron campaign setting for 3.5. I use very little else from Eberron, but the warforged alone were worth the price of the book, imho). Standard golems are not intelligent, but are magically imbued with the ability to obey orders (which has nothing at all to do with intelligence). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 01:40:53
I meant primates... sorry. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 22:37:06
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
At what point do we draw the line? If a whale or Dolphin has an intelligence equal to man, then should killing one be murder? If so, what about Sapiens? They feel, think, and have emotions... why would harming one simply be considered "cruelty to animals"?
Which animals are you talking about, btw? I did a search on "sapiens", and the only animal I found referenced was homo sapiens. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 21:26:27
quote:
Originally posted by arry
What a wonderful idea Wooly. Consider that uh . . . borrowed 
I agree, with a little 'tweaking' - perhaps the beings that are 'in-charge' of these 'lesser spirits' gain a foothold in the mortal world with the amount of their underlings summoned there?
Food for thought - it would work similar to worshippers; the more a god or Archfiend has on the Prime, the more of his will he can extend there.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I believe this was in reference to Data, the android, winning sentinal rights as a thinking machine. Data won the right to control own life, something a golem has not won.
The 'Pinnochio' Syndrome was used in the original series (Spock), and later in Voyager. I think the idea evolved with each presentation, and the last was the most advanced - if a Hologram can think for itself, should it not have freedom as well?
Several of the episodes dealt with this subject matter, and an entire race of (accidentally) created, self-willed Holograms became 'freedom fighters' - the Doctor even joined with them for a time, and attempted to free some of his 'lesser' kin in yet another episode.
At what point do we draw the line? If a whale or Dolphin has an intelligence equal to man, then should killing one be murder? If so, what about Simians? They feel, think, and have emotions... why would harming one simply be considered "cruelty to animals"?
This happens to be a VERY deep question, even though the origianl post was merely asking for an opinion of D&D constructs.
And what of Eberron's Warforged? Weren't they slaves, even though they were created to that purpose? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 18:57:43
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
We are talking golems and animating spirits and you are playing the science card? 
Well, you did say:
"possessing a soul, that ineffable faculty that allows us to make moral determinations, recognize right from wrong and choose to do good or evil."
Also, did you read my last statement in that post?
There's more to be said about this subject, but this is not the appropriate place for that.
quote:
And to consider further still if possession of a soul would then be enough to invest a golem with certain natural rights from a philosophical point of view.
In order to give an answer to that, I'd first need to find out what the effective difference is between a person who has a "soul" and a person who doesn't. Perhaps later I'll ask Ed Greenwood.
In the meantime, I would contend that if a person (or construct, or whatever) meets the three "requirements" you mentioned (with number three being the capacity to make moral decisions), they probably should be granted rights and not be kept as slaves even if they do not possess a soul.
|
| monknwildcat |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 13:29:27
If someone were to require elementals of higher intelligence to craft golems, it may balm the souls of goodly PCs to bargain with said elemental for their service instead of simply binding it and going on their merry way. Such agreements would be, as noted earlier, a form of indentured service. (If someone already mentioned this, my apologies!)
(But Weis' and Hickman's Rose of the Prophet rocked! Thanks for the reminder, WR!  ) |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 08:17:46
We are talking golems and animating spirits and you are playing the science card?
Obviously golems and spirits don't have brains (I think...) at least not in the conventional way we think of them.
I am not advocating for the existence of a soul. Some people believe though that souls exist. Souls are said to live beyond death, in the absence of a body, so the soul cannot be part of the brain. Although, perhaps it resides there when it is inhabiting a body. I don't profess to be an expert.
Some people have defined the soul as the organ which informs our moral character, allows us to distinguish and choose between right and wrong. I have no special knowledge as to whether they are correct in their definition. If one does not believe in the soul, one might ascribe that function to the brain.
But if one is concerned about golem civil rights, I think it important to at least consider whether souls exist (within the context of the metaphysics of the Forgotten Realms) and if so whether golems possess them or not. And to consider further still if possession of a soul would then be enough to invest a golem with certain natural rights from a philosophical point of view.
So actually no, not the brain. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 14:13:56
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
3) possessing a soul, that ineffable faculty that allows us to make moral determinations, recognize right from wrong and choose to do good or evil.
Actually that's the brain.
Although, I can concede that with fantasy creatures things might be different. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 06:02:55
One could possibly make the argument that a spirit or creature might be intelligent enough to understand language and perform commands, even complex ones, but lack some important quality necessary to endow "personhood". Three important candidates for such qualities spring to mind 1) sapience, i.e. being self aware, 2) sentience, i.e. being able to "feel" and thus suffer, and/or 3) possessing a soul, that ineffable faculty that allows us to make moral determinations, recognize right from wrong and choose to do good or evil. I don't know if any one of these in themselves is necessary or sufficient to grant "rights" or evaluate a condition of slavery, and there may be others I haven't thought of, but it is at least a starting point.
For instance, can an ox pulling a plow be considered a slave? Is it immoral to use oxen? PETA might think so. Your typical farmer would not. An ox is perhaps sentient, at least in the sense that it is aware of its environment, can be trained and taught simple commands, has simple emotions and can feel pain (the bar for sentience is pretty low) but it is not sapient or "self-aware". It cannot ponder its condition, or have hopes, or feel guilt or make moral decisions. If an elemental spirit were like a very smart ox, it might not be considered slavery to bind them into a golem.
Or consider rather if an elemental spirit is more like an operating system, or software engine. The software in video games can "animate" characters, have them run around and shoot guns, or even engage in trade, gossip and other very complex behaviors. This is much like what an elemental spirit does. A software program can be very smart, but it is not sentient, it does not "feel", it cannot suffer, and thus no one has moral qualms about blowing away characters in a video game.
But if an elemental spirit is aware of its condition, and objects to it, or suffers because of it, then it is a serious question to consider whether binding that spirit counts as enslavement. Just because you can do a thing doesn't make it a right thing to do.
I suppose it would be possible, as has been suggested above, to have an elemental spirit that qualifies for "personhood" but that likes to serve, or at least doesn't object to servitude, because that kind of service is deeply ingrained as part of its nature. In that respect, it might not be morally wrong to utilize them for their natural purpose so long as you don't abuse them.
In 4e I believe they have introduced a concept called the "animus" (or is it the "anima"?) which is separate from the "soul". This animus is the vital spark that empowers conscious movement to any animated object or undead or other "animate" creature. A critter can be animate but not have a soul. Thus you can have skeletons and zombies that are animated but have no souls. But vampires and liches would be examples of undead with souls (I think). In 4e the soul doesn't animate the body but is analagous to the "mind." If the animating spirit of a golem is more akin to what imparts movement to a zombie or skeleton, then I think one could feel morally justifiable in using a golem without worrying about promulgating slavery.
|
| Hawkins |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 00:02:50
My first and last thought on it is that if the golem has an intelligence score of 3 or higher (the min for intelligent life) then it is slavery, and if it has a 2 or lower then it is not slavery. |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 23:54:12
If it can be said that a nimblewright or a helmed horror could have desires beyond its basic nature (like an animal), then any compulsion made on it would be indeed, evil. However, splitting hairs so finely then brings us to the question of whether or not basic hypnotism would be considered as such... |
| kysus |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 21:31:08
Actually both the nimblewight and the helmed horror have intelligence and i know the nimblewight uses a water spirit, not sure what the helmed horror uses though. So when u start to look around there are a quite a few constructs that are given intelligence with spirits, so how would u view those those? |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 26 Sep 2008 : 06:48:12
As a DM I might rule that the term "elemental spirit" does not imply a consciousness.
A prime example is Salvatore's Gwenhwyvar. During her creation she was intended only to be a spirit, golem-like in her use, but instead she is a unique being with thoughts, feelings and ideas.
In other words, enslavement means to undo the will of a living creature. Commanding a golem to do something cannot be considering enslavement as the golem never had the compulsion to do otherwise. |
| Ikki |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 22:20:16
Anyway, the golems are mindless so those alemental forces are just as mindless. Their sole comprehension of relity is what you tell them..
Anyway, on vegetarians...
There were those intresting planescape sects ... one of vegetarians, but another "protectors of the wyld" -basically, let meatthings eat eachother and leave the greeney alone! ;)
Oh yeah and the leather babes... |
| arry |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 14:29:44
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by arry
Unless they give up eating altogether!
Ring of sustenance baby!
Doh! |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 14:29:40
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
There are elemental spirits that are the equivalent of animals, but they are living elementals. So depending on how you feel about binding a non-sentient but still living bundle of elemental energy, it does seem to be different than, say, binding a fully self aware elder elemental, for example.
True. One could argue that if using a non-sentient elemental is wrong, than any kind of animal husbandry (even such that doesn't involve killing and eating said animals) is wrong, too, and slavery.
PS: Kentinal, thanks for the information about Data. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 03:44:40
There are elemental spirits that are the equivalent of animals, but they are living elementals. So depending on how you feel about binding a non-sentient but still living bundle of elemental energy, it does seem to be different than, say, binding a fully self aware elder elemental, for example.
So I guess in this case, the elemental bound to the golem is something like a hamster running around in a wheel to provide animate force for the golem in question.
Er . . . hope Wooly isn't offended . . .  |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 03:35:44
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
If they are animated machines, how is making and using them "slavery"?
Didn't we already watch this episode of Star Trek?
No.
But I appreciate the feedback on my post.
I believe this was in reference to Data, the android, winning sentinal rights as a thinking machine. Data won the right to control own life, something a golem has not won. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 18:30:49
quote:
Originally posted by arry
Unless they give up eating altogether!
Ring of sustenance baby! |
| arry |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 17:56:30
As in D&D there are sentient plants, vegetarians aren't exactly holding the 'high moral ground'
Unless they give up eating altogether! |
| Pandora |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 16:55:04
If you go to the extreme you might have some people take a stance as extremist vegetarians might and condemn the keeping of even "lower intelligence" life forms (spirits forced into golems). Extremists can easily turn violent of course ... |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 16:26:57
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
If they are animated machines, how is making and using them "slavery"?
Didn't we already watch this episode of Star Trek?
No.
But I appreciate the feedback on my post. |
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