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VaxarKun
Acolyte

9 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2022 :  11:04:06  Show Profile Send VaxarKun a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

I've posted the next section of my review, this one focuses on subpar characterizations. https://archiveofourown.org/works/40921692/chapters/107744805



Reading through this, and after your analysis of the changes to Kimmuriel, I now understand why he is listed twice in the "who's this character' section at the end(?).Salvatore should have listed the others twice as well given they act like different characters.

That said, I think you went bit too nitpicky with the grimace issue with Kyrnill. I mean, sure I understand your reasoning, and it makes sense generally, but it's been shown time and time again that characters who normally can control themselves sometimes can't help it and show a reaction that they should not have. It what makes them living beings in a sense.

Also when was it told that Kimmuriel was not born Oblodra? Or that the yochlols went rogue? If I remember correctly, the driders were given without Lolth's direct consent but as long as it serves chaos, she should be fine with it no?
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VaxarKun
Acolyte

9 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2022 :  11:08:56  Show Profile Send VaxarKun a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

Really wish that there was a block function on this site so that we don't have to look at trash from slavering fanbois who try to police the thoughts and actions of others.


Sorry that I disturbed your little echo chamber.



To be fair, the others did make a good point in that you didn't add anything to the conversation - you generally said it's nitpicking for no reason. If you wanted to add to the conversation, then do so witch comments that contribute to it.

I for one did enjoy the book as well and may see your point of "over-nitpicking" in general but I think it's important to recognize that it is not a flawless book and some of its criticism are very much valid.
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
508 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2022 :  14:52:14  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This isnít just valid criticism though. Itís being laser-focused on flaws and then blowing them way out of proportion.

Take the criticism about RAS inventing breathless rooms. It doesnít really contradict established lore (if anything itís adding lore) but itís being treated as such.

And when I see this is coming from someone thatís been trying to find stuff to complain about since the start and is currently in the middle of a multi-part rantÖ This isnít someone whoís going to listen to reason. Theyíre already too invested.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36332 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2022 :  18:27:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

This isnít just valid criticism though. Itís being laser-focused on flaws and then blowing them way out of proportion.


So you think it's reasonable for someone like Dinin, who murdered his own brother, to suddenly show great concern for others? It's not a valid criticism to say "this person who never cared about anyone else and never had a reason to change has changed dramatically for no readily apparent reason?"

Because I'm sorry, I think that's a very valid criticism and I've personally complained about sudden character changes like that in other books.

quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

And when I see this is coming from someone thatís been trying to find stuff to complain about since the start and is currently in the middle of a multi-part rantÖ This isnít someone whoís going to listen to reason. Theyíre already too invested.


And you seem to be very invested in not agreeing and not listening to the reasons that have been laid out in great detail and with numerous examples.

Sno4wy has put some effort into his comments. Thus far, you have not, you have only attacked others for opinions you disagree with.

Why are you even arguing if you say no one is going to listen?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
450 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2022 :  18:36:28  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

Reading through this, and after your analysis of the changes to Kimmuriel, I now understand why he is listed twice in the "who's this character' section at the end(?).Salvatore should have listed the others twice as well given they act like different characters.

That said, I think you went bit too nitpicky with the grimace issue with Kyrnill. I mean, sure I understand your reasoning, and it makes sense generally, but it's been shown time and time again that characters who normally can control themselves sometimes can't help it and show a reaction that they should not have. It what makes them living beings in a sense.

Also when was it told that Kimmuriel was not born Oblodra? Or that the yochlols went rogue? If I remember correctly, the driders were given without Lolth's direct consent but as long as it serves chaos, she should be fine with it no?



Thanks for taking the time to read! I definitely do over-analyze some things, when I was reading the book I made a note of everything that I felt could be commented on for the sake of thoroughness/completionism, which would inevitably make for some things to be nitpicky.

That's a really funny take on why Kimmuriel's listed twice in the cast of characters! It definitely is an editorial oversight, but I like your interpretation a lot better.

I can't remember where specifically it was mentioned about Kimmuriel not being related by blood to his house, but it was in one of the recent books, I wanna say in the previous trilogy maybe? As for the yochlols, I described them as going rogue because they weren't sent by Lolth, as you mentioned they didn't grant the driders by Lolth's permission, and there was at least one scene where they're giggling amongst themselves about how the stupid mortals would believe anything that they tell them because of their faith in Lolth and how they weren't there because Lolth sent them. Ultimately, Lolth probably wouldn't mind as long as chaos was sewn, but we've also seen Lolth to be extremely controlling, and I'm not sure that she'd be chill with how a couple of her handmaidens just went off to do their own thing and invoke her name at their fancy. Who can say though, chaos may be Lolth's thing, but it's also too often used as justification for basically anything that fits Salvatore's whims.
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
508 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2022 :  19:42:47  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

This isnít just valid criticism though. Itís being laser-focused on flaws and then blowing them way out of proportion.


So you think it's reasonable for someone like Dinin, who murdered his own brother, to suddenly show great concern for others? It's not a valid criticism to say "this person who never cared about anyone else and never had a reason to change has changed dramatically for no readily apparent reason?"

Because I'm sorry, I think that's a very valid criticism and I've personally complained about sudden character changes like that in other books.

Dinin was already beginning to change during his time with Bregan D'aerthe before he was morphed into a Drider. Add to that him seeing first hand what you get from Lolth's faith, and the 2 year gap since he came back, no it's not unreasonable.

And that's the thing with your arguments, you're far more interested in bashing the book (did you even read it?), than seeing how such a situation can be easily explained.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertAnd you seem to be very invested in not agreeing and not listening to the reasons that have been laid out in great detail and with numerous examples.

Sno4wy has put some effort into his comments. Thus far, you have not, you have only attacked others for opinions you disagree with.

Why are you even arguing if you say no one is going to listen?


Oh I'm sorry, did I disturb your echo chamber too?

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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deserk
Learned Scribe

Norway
231 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2022 :  20:57:40  Show Profile Send deserk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tanthalas, you are entitled to your opinion as others are to theirs. If you want to praise RAS and his latest book then go right ahead and do that. But don't try to shut down the voices of others who may not share your views.
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deserk
Learned Scribe

Norway
231 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2022 :  21:26:17  Show Profile Send deserk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
This. They have only known her worship for generations. She's sent manifestations there. They know she is real and to be feared. But now we can nonchalantly just shrug our shoulders and move on. The houses lower down on the power rung, Fey-Branche and Tuin'tarl, would be licking their lips and promising Lolth everything for her favour in hopes of gaining greater power.

-- George Krashos


I would really hope that is what would happen, as that would be the most sensible thing. And it would be interesting seeing the Baenre being actually toppled. But I have a feeling Quenthel and Yvonnel NR.2 are just going to convert every drow around to their New Age beliefs, and end up turning Menzoberranzan into a big old hippy town.

Kinda feel he did the same thing with Luskan already. It used to be a menacing and mysterious power in the North under the rule of the Arcane Brotherhood and it's pirate clans, feared by all the cities of the Sword Coast. Now it's just Jarlaxle's backyard. RAS is certainly not improving the setting by taking away all the major evil forces of the world, without filling it with something new.

Edited by - deserk on 09 Nov 2022 21:28:43
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3685 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2022 :  23:08:11  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

This isnít just valid criticism though. Itís being laser-focused on flaws and then blowing them way out of proportion.

Take the criticism about RAS inventing breathless rooms. It doesnít really contradict established lore (if anything itís adding lore) but itís being treated as such.

And when I see this is coming from someone thatís been trying to find stuff to complain about since the start and is currently in the middle of a multi-part rantÖ This isnít someone whoís going to listen to reason. Theyíre already too invested.




Your point comes down to "your criticism is invalid and you are biased... because I say so". You aren't explaining anything, you aren't addressing any point, you're just making blanket judgments supported by nothing (in addition to lowbrow ad hominem fallacies, like "they're not going to listen to reason"). That's not how discussions work. You're dismissing what others say without bothering to put any effort into elaborating on why you think that their points are flawed. Your posts can't be taken seriously, because that kind of talk can only lead to a worthless back and forth of "no u".

If you don't have the time or will to put in any effort, then don't try to imply that what others said is invalid, because trying to prove that requires effort. Just state that you disagree and move on. It's basic conversation etiquette, but apparently you need the memo.

quote:
Itís being laser-focused on flaws and then blowing them way out of proportion.


This points at how biased your attitude is. Sno4wy had a lengthy section about the postives of the book in their review. You didn't even pay attention to what the others said, but still have the face to throw around accusations and call them "biased". That's just crass.

Edited by - Irennan on 09 Nov 2022 23:21:31
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36332 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2022 :  23:20:10  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

This isnít just valid criticism though. Itís being laser-focused on flaws and then blowing them way out of proportion.


So you think it's reasonable for someone like Dinin, who murdered his own brother, to suddenly show great concern for others? It's not a valid criticism to say "this person who never cared about anyone else and never had a reason to change has changed dramatically for no readily apparent reason?"

Because I'm sorry, I think that's a very valid criticism and I've personally complained about sudden character changes like that in other books.

Dinin was already beginning to change during his time with Bregan D'aerthe before he was morphed into a Drider. Add to that him seeing first hand what you get from Lolth's faith, and the 2 year gap since he came back, no it's not unreasonable.

And that's the thing with your arguments, you're far more interested in bashing the book (did you even read it?), than seeing how such a situation can be easily explained.


Centuries of living under Lolth's faith didn't change him, but 2 years did?

And look again, dude. I have not bashed the book at all, nor have I made any arguments at all about whether or not it is good or bad.

If you weren't so eager to attack everyone, you might have noticed that.

quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertAnd you seem to be very invested in not agreeing and not listening to the reasons that have been laid out in great detail and with numerous examples.

Sno4wy has put some effort into his comments. Thus far, you have not, you have only attacked others for opinions you disagree with.

Why are you even arguing if you say no one is going to listen?


Oh I'm sorry, did I disturb your echo chamber too?



Since I've not stated any opinions for or against, and since you've not backed up any of your attacks, then no, you've not disturbed my "echo chamber". I'm not the one sitting here attacking everyone, saying they're wrong, and not bothering to address any of their reasoning.

If anything, you're in your own little pro-RAS echo chamber.

If you want anyone to pay attention to you, stop attacking them and actually offer some real point-by-point rebuttals.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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VaxarKun
Acolyte

9 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2022 :  10:52:08  Show Profile Send VaxarKun a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deserk

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
This. They have only known her worship for generations. She's sent manifestations there. They know she is real and to be feared. But now we can nonchalantly just shrug our shoulders and move on. The houses lower down on the power rung, Fey-Branche and Tuin'tarl, would be licking their lips and promising Lolth everything for her favour in hopes of gaining greater power.

-- George Krashos


I would really hope that is what would happen, as that would be the most sensible thing. And it would be interesting seeing the Baenre being actually toppled. But I have a feeling Quenthel and Yvonnel NR.2 are just going to convert every drow around to their New Age beliefs, and end up turning Menzoberranzan into a big old hippy town.

Kinda feel he did the same thing with Luskan already. It used to be a menacing and mysterious power in the North under the rule of the Arcane Brotherhood and it's pirate clans, feared by all the cities of the Sword Coast. Now it's just Jarlaxle's backyard. RAS is certainly not improving the setting by taking away all the major evil forces of the world, without filling it with something new.



I would love if Baenres lost and had to leave Menzoberranzan. Maybe go to Calidae as refugees or something. They seem to be welcoming anyway with plenty of room to spare. Unlikely to happen though.

quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:

Reading through this, and after your analysis of the changes to Kimmuriel, I now understand why he is listed twice in the "who's this character' section at the end(?).Salvatore should have listed the others twice as well given they act like different characters.

That said, I think you went bit too nitpicky with the grimace issue with Kyrnill. I mean, sure I understand your reasoning, and it makes sense generally, but it's been shown time and time again that characters who normally can control themselves sometimes can't help it and show a reaction that they should not have. It what makes them living beings in a sense.

Also when was it told that Kimmuriel was not born Oblodra? Or that the yochlols went rogue? If I remember correctly, the driders were given without Lolth's direct consent but as long as it serves chaos, she should be fine with it no?



Thanks for taking the time to read! I definitely do over-analyze some things, when I was reading the book I made a note of everything that I felt could be commented on for the sake of thoroughness/completionism, which would inevitably make for some things to be nitpicky.

That's a really funny take on why Kimmuriel's listed twice in the cast of characters! It definitely is an editorial oversight, but I like your interpretation a lot better.

I can't remember where specifically it was mentioned about Kimmuriel not being related by blood to his house, but it was in one of the recent books, I wanna say in the previous trilogy maybe? As for the yochlols, I described them as going rogue because they weren't sent by Lolth, as you mentioned they didn't grant the driders by Lolth's permission, and there was at least one scene where they're giggling amongst themselves about how the stupid mortals would believe anything that they tell them because of their faith in Lolth and how they weren't there because Lolth sent them. Ultimately, Lolth probably wouldn't mind as long as chaos was sewn, but we've also seen Lolth to be extremely controlling, and I'm not sure that she'd be chill with how a couple of her handmaidens just went off to do their own thing and invoke her name at their fancy. Who can say though, chaos may be Lolth's thing, but it's also too often used as justification for basically anything that fits Salvatore's whims.



Thanks - now I do recall that part about the yochlols, I think it was after one of them told Kynrill how Lolth planned the whole thing with Jarlaxle. One thing I'm really curious about though is Dinin's fate. Lolth didn't seem that outraged by the 'curing' of driders (though who knows). Perhaps she no longer felt them useful and decided to let them go. I wonder, if that is the case, would she (for the lulz) not grant Zhindia the power to make Dinin drider again? Would be interesting to see their reaction to that.
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TKU
Learned Scribe

USA
131 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2022 :  16:35:08  Show Profile Send TKU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks sno4wy for your continued analysis. I know some people will find it needlessly 'nitpicky', and that's fine, IMO. But I do appreciate the analysis pointing out some definite trends, inclinations etc in RAS works, particularly from what I have been hearing about/read in more recent content RAS has been involved with-that concerns me, and it's gratifying to hear it from another- that I'm not the only one who has noticed these things. You have also pointed out some stuff that I wasn't aware of/considered, so thanks for that as well.

quote:
Originally posted by deserk

I think there were some pretty good criticisms pointed out here. Personally I did find this book more enjoyable than the last, though I didn't find it to be that great either. And wow, I was even surprised RAS deigned to invoke the name of Eilistraee as a patron of a particular character. Heh, though he didn't really delve into it much at all, but at least he's not completely pretending Eilistraee doesn't exist.
I remain concerned that he's doing a 'soft rewrite' of her since he's been vocal about his dislike before. You can do a lot with a few words, 'Ched Nassad was never rebuilt' or w/e it was that one time.

quote:
Originally posted by deserkI would have liked this story more if Drizzt wasn't in it though. The guy hasn't had character development for decades, and it's a bit irritating reading about someone who can do no wrong, nor can't ever lose.
He should have retired a few editions ago IMO. He earned his happy ending and I think should have stepped aside for the next generation of RAS characters to take the spotlight.

quote:
Originally posted by deserkAlso, personally the developments in Menzoberranzan are not great imo, as every sign seems to indicate that it will radically change within the next books. Say what you will of Lolth, but I find it hard to imagine that RAS will succeed at all in making it an interesting place without worship of the Spider Queen. Not to mention this is a quite iconic part of the Realms. And it is quite jarring seeing the Baenre and long established characters like Quenthel just completely nonchalantly throwing away the worship of Lolth, as if it were a fabric of clothing.


This greatly concerns me. He's already sorta written out the other Lolth-worshipping cities afaik-Menzo is now the center of all things evil-drow related in the realms. Remove Lolth from the equation, upset the balance, and we lose something iconic from the realms. This wouldn't be as much of an issue if cities like Ched Nassad or Sshamath, T'lindhet etc were still in play, but they are all gone/never existed in RAS's realized vision of the drow's place in the realms, their history, etc.

And yeah, Quenthel is someone I could have seen maybe being developed into a more sympathetic character if her earliest depictions/traits were developed on-IIRC in Siege of Darkness she had some redeeping qualities that might have been built upon (empathy for her family, doesn't like her mother's opportunistic backstabbing in the middle of a pivotal battle, concerned about casualties among non-baenre priestesses) but that never happened. Post-resurrection, the whole War of the Spider Queen novels etc, the writers took her in a different direction. She's seen what's on offer outside of the Spider Queen's cult, and had exposure to other culture's and religions and ample chance to turn against her, and instead she doubled down and stayed a fanatic and never even considered her options before being suddenly converted with the simplistic ease of a Chick tract goes beyond belief after being briefly preached to? That's not character development, idk what that is but sounds like extraordinarily bad writing to me.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
This. They have only known her worship for generations. She's sent manifestations there. They know she is real and to be feared. But now we can nonchalantly just shrug our shoulders and move on. The houses lower down on the power rung, Fey-Branche and Tuin'tarl, would be licking their lips and promising Lolth everything for her favour in hopes of gaining greater power.

-- George Krashos


Echoing this. Baenre would be dead within days. The whole culture is based around stabbing each other in the back at signs of weakness, and heresy is the biggest transgression you can make in this society, and Baenre has been at the top since the founding of the city. It is an unprecedented opportunity that every Matron should be licking their lips at. Instead we have this top down enlightenment from Baenre since they are the author's favorite, and seemingly succeeding at that despite all logic, since other noble houses are always inevitably relegated to jobbing whenever Baenre is involved.

All this talk about character's doing about faces in personality and acting extremely out of character to get the story going has me in mind of a quote from RAS from a reddit AMA

quote:
RAS-Reddit
A general outline and then let the story take me where it will. I don't know if I could have done this in the early days, but at this point, it's second nature.

And when one of my characters is acting out of character, instead of redoing it, I try to figure out why. It's a lot of fun, honestly.


This sort of 'think of something shocking/novel and then changing everything around it to make it 'fit' honestly explains a lot of has irked me in RAS's writing over the years, not just characters, but goes a long way to explain why characters suddenly start acting ooc, like all the evil whipcracking priestesses suddenly having about faces and turning on a dime in the latest books.

Edited by - TKU on 10 Nov 2022 16:37:54
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3685 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2022 :  18:30:58  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TKU

quote:
Originally posted by deserk

I think there were some pretty good criticisms pointed out here. Personally I did find this book more enjoyable than the last, though I didn't find it to be that great either. And wow, I was even surprised RAS deigned to invoke the name of Eilistraee as a patron of a particular character. Heh, though he didn't really delve into it much at all, but at least he's not completely pretending Eilistraee doesn't exist.
I remain concerned that he's doing a 'soft rewrite' of her since he's been vocal about his dislike before. You can do a lot with a few words, 'Ched Nassad was never rebuilt' or w/e it was that one time.




He's just throwing a bone at people, perhaps due to the talk about him having a hate boner for Eilistraee, and is probably reducing Eilistraee's importance in the grand scheme of things drow at the same time. He probably just took a glance at some info about her, saw that her followers like forests, ignored the rest, and went full "ah yes, a nature goddess". I really doubt he'll bother to rewrite her, and saying that she's a nature goddess isn't enough to be a rewrite, as it is indeed a facet of her teachings (more of a tool for her goal), and it doesn't invalidate the rest. I'd be REALLY surprised if we saw more about Eilistraee in his future books,

Edited by - Irennan on 10 Nov 2022 18:32:18
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
450 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2022 :  20:44:02  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The "throwing a bone" at people definitely checks out, I've seen a surge in fanbois who are foaming at the mouth and pointing at the word "Eilistraee" appearing literally once in Glacier's Edge and screaming, "SEE!!! UR WRONG BOB DOESNT HATE EILISTRAEE!!!1oneone1". :P
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6529 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2022 :  00:28:19  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think R A Salvatore "hates" Eilistraee, I just don't think her presence in his writing helped advance the narrative he was pushing. Lots of good, noble drow makes your own main protagonist good, noble drow not that special. Now that he has created a whole city of such types out of nothingness, that puts that story driver to bed.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 11 Nov 2022 00:43:04
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
450 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2022 :  00:37:24  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I don't think R A Salvatore "hates" Eilistraee, I just didn't;t think her presence in writing helped advance the narrative he was pushing. Lots of good, noble drow makes your own main protagonist good, noble drow not that special. Now that he has created a whole city of such types out of nothingness, that puts that story driver to bed.

-- George Krashos



You (and others) not actually hating Eilistraee but recognizing that RAS has actively worked to erase her are equivalent in the minds of aforementioned group of people, which imo makes the whole situation funnier.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6529 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2022 :  00:42:48  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That aforementioned group of people should take note of the fact that R A Salvatore has refused to ever explain his failure to feature Eilistraee in his many, many drow novels until now - when the "good drow" dynamic has changed permanently. That says something in and of itself to that segment of the fanbase, surely ...

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2692 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2022 :  00:47:27  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I heard that he openly admitted to disliking Eilistraee (mind you, this is all hearsay, so I fully admit I could be wrong). But RAS has made no secret that he hates anything to do with religion, even fictional. Look how OOc Mielikki is in her genocide declaration. So even if he hasn't specifically said he hates Eilistraee, the fact she's a goddess probably puts her on his hate list.

Sweet water and light laughter
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
450 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2022 :  01:35:17  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

That aforementioned group of people should take note of the fact that R A Salvatore has refused to ever explain his failure to feature Eilistraee in his many, many drow novels until now - when the "good drow" dynamic has changed permanently. That says something in and of itself to that segment of the fanbase, surely ...

-- George Krashos



Basically, yeah. You just can't try to apply logic to them, it'd be an immense exercise in frustration and futility.

Edited by - sno4wy on 11 Nov 2022 01:35:37
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3685 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2022 :  02:03:22  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I don't think R A Salvatore "hates" Eilistraee, I just don't think her presence in his writing helped advance the narrative he was pushing. Lots of good, noble drow makes your own main protagonist good, noble drow not that special. Now that he has created a whole city of such types out of nothingness, that puts that story driver to bed.

-- George Krashos



Hate? Definitely not. But he's resented that other people got to do good drow. That's all, really.
You can see it from a 2020 interview, where he talks about his dislike for Eilistraee, and tells something along the lines that he felt that the rug was pulled from under his feet (and uses a strawman to justify why she's bad. Basically he complains that "she makes the drow good", which only shows that he didn't even bother to acquire the most superficial understanding of the character).

I'll look for the link to the interview later and post it here.
EDIT: here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HsaC92khQY
The part about Eilistraee should be roughly mid video

Edited by - Irennan on 11 Nov 2022 06:01:23
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 11 Nov 2022 :  02:26:54  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ironically, he's also said Drizzt isn't the only good drow, so...

Sweet water and light laughter
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TKU
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Posted - 11 Nov 2022 :  02:40:49  Show Profile Send TKU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That was the interview I was thinking of in all this discussion, thanks Irennan, I never bookmark any of these author interviews. Though he has also spoken ill of FR deities in general in other interviews. (IIRC he seems to think that because deities require worship, they have no grounds (moral or otherwise) to demand obedience in anything of their worshippers, so deities telling you what to do is somehow cosmically wrong...something we might have been seeing bleed through to his writing of Lolth if some of what I'm hearing is accurate. Either way I think it goes a bit deeper than just not being able to fit E into his books. From what I recall he nimbly avoided mentioning Vhaeraun by name in the latest book as well in reference to Shakti. I think he really dislikes the idea of the dark Seldarine in general in a manner that goes beyond his usual dislike of FR deities.

But if he relegates her to the role of a 'minor nature goddess', it amounts to a degree of control being exerted over her by him that has the effect of making her essentially irrelevant in terms of the drow and the struggle against the Spider Queen.
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Irennan
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Posted - 11 Nov 2022 :  06:14:05  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TKU

That was the interview I was thinking of in all this discussion, thanks Irennan, I never bookmark any of these author interviews. Though he has also spoken ill of FR deities in general in other interviews. (IIRC he seems to think that because deities require worship, they have no grounds (moral or otherwise) to demand obedience in anything of their worshippers, so deities telling you what to do is somehow cosmically wrong...something we might have been seeing bleed through to his writing of Lolth if some of what I'm hearing is accurate. Either way I think it goes a bit deeper than just not being able to fit E into his books. From what I recall he nimbly avoided mentioning Vhaeraun by name in the latest book as well in reference to Shakti. I think he really dislikes the idea of the dark Seldarine in general in a manner that goes beyond his usual dislike of FR deities.

But if he relegates her to the role of a 'minor nature goddess', it amounts to a degree of control being exerted over her by him that has the effect of making her essentially irrelevant in terms of the drow and the struggle against the Spider Queen.



He would need to go out of his way to state that Eilistraee is *only* a minor nature goddess to do that. But that would be weird as f***, because no one would talk about their deity saying "oh, my goddess is a deity of *only* nature". Eilistraee being mentioned as a nature goddess has no bearing on her 6e writeup (so, on her role in the retconned setting) because a)it can be chalked up to the specific follower focusing on the nature part of her teachings, and b)it will ultimately be up to WotC to write about Eilistraee in the new sourcebooks, and a random minor nature goddess would be boring as hell, and overall really sh*tty design. While WotC's stories aren't anything remotely remarkable, having lame designs on your curriculum doesn't look very good. It's in the interest of WotC's staff to not just indulge RAS' bias, but to at least try and put forth something of passable quality. That's assuming they have some ounce of care left for their craft, ofc, but while they don't give a sh*t about the FR, it's rather extreme to assume that they don't give a sh*t about anything they make.

In any case, there's no core aspect about Eilistraee that needs to be changed to fit the new lore. She could very easily do what she's always done, except she now focuses on the udadrow. For the other drow, she would be a deity of arts, beauty, and nature.

I've mentioned it in the past, but while narrowing the focus on only one drow culture could diminish Eilistraee's impact on the overall setting, it would emphasize her character--she chose to walk the harder path not even for all drow, but only for a fraction of them. It highlights how important her people are to her.
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Irennan
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Posted - 11 Nov 2022 :  06:18:37  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Ironically, he's also said Drizzt isn't the only good drow, so...



That's kinda the point of him feeling like the rug was pulled from under his feet. He comes off as he wanted to be the *only* person doing good drow. My take is that his issue isn't about Drizzt having company, as much it is about other people being the ones to introduce said company.

It surely would explain while he went full "all drow are crap except Drizzt and a handful others", until he was greenlit to be the only one to decide what the drow are. Also, it would explain all his statements and his claim to be the one to have created the drow, that *his* vision is the one coming into the setting (which discredits many authors that tried to make the drow nuanced), etc...
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Irennan
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Posted - 11 Nov 2022 :  06:32:58  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by deserk


Also, personally the developments in Menzoberranzan are not great imo, as every sign seems to indicate that it will radically change within the next books. Say what you will of Lolth, but I find it hard to imagine that RAS will succeed at all in making it an interesting place without worship of the Spider Queen. Not to mention this is a quite iconic part of the Realms. And it is quite jarring seeing the Baenre and long established characters like Quenthel just completely nonchalantly throwing away the worship of Lolth, as if it were a fabric of clothing.



This. They have only known her worship for generations. She's sent manifestations there. They know she is real and to be feared. But now we can nonchalantly just shrug our shoulders and move on. The houses lower down on the power rung, Fey-Branche and Tuin'tarl, would be licking their lips and promising Lolth everything for her favour in hopes of gaining greater power.

-- George Krashos



To be fair, when you start with something that was written with little to no attention to believability, trying to make the transition believable kinda loses its meaning. it might even be impossible, given that the Lolthite drow are a bunch of clichťs about evil lumped together, and their existence in-universe only continues due to author fiat. Some authors (like Ed or Elaine) tried adding nuance to the drow, but all of that was always irrelevant to RAS' drow, and RAS' drow are the starting point of what we're getting now. Something that isn't believable will hardly lead to a believable development.

Even if you try, there will always be underlying issues like: yeah, what were these dudes doing for the previous ten millennia? The situation hasn't changed if compared to, like, 1k years ago. Heck, a lot opf key figures are people that were around centuries ago. Why only now? Where did the mass epiphany come from?
Also, how is the new governing system going to be any better than the previous one? If you look at revolutions against sh*thole governments, the replacement is often worse or just the same as before. That's because the success of the revolution, as well as staying in power, requires having the support of key people/organizations (military, finances, etc...), and those key figures will be mostly the same people from before the revolution. In the case of the drow, they will still be the same ridiculous caricatures as before, will still be pursuing their interests while neglecting even the basic levels of wellbeing of the population, will still intentionally stifle the development of their society like they canonically did before, will still be acting on their sadism, and whatever else. In short, they will still be the same uninteresting psychopaths that handled things before the revolution (mostly without the surface level charisma that psychopaths tend to have, to make it even less interesting). That is unless you do a wholesale upheaval and demolish all of your society. But that's really hard, and it will get your revolution a lot of resistance, because it leads to other terrible consequences. Starting with generating a lack of essential infrastructures (if you dismantle the key organizations, rebuilding them requires competence, time, resources), insane cost in lives and wellbeing, and so on. On top of that, the drow are surrounded by enemies. Why aren't they intervening to curbstomp the Lolthites into the ground while they're killing each other?

Not only that, having an antagonist with such a ridiculous position only harms the believability of your revolution. A protagonist is only as deep and interesting as their antagonist is; a bad antagonist makes for a boring story, or for banality. Once again, any kind of believability flies straight out of the window, as the whole story turns into the "heroes" being like "you are so, SO evil. Don't you know that kicking puppies and eating kittens is bad?" (or the legendary "Stop! People die when they are killed!") with no room for anything more involving than that kind of banality. And all characters who oppose Lolth suffer in terms of development, because what the hell do you have to develop, when your character has already acquired the truth? A Lolthite society that makes sense and doesn't mostly have bad and self-destructive stuff, would suddenly make the main conflict more layered, and all the characters involved feel much more real.

Basically, you start from a point of 0 believability, you can't get a believable development--you have to handwave tons of issues no matter what.

TL; DR. The Lolthite drow didn't evolve (or fall) in any believable way for 30+ years, why are we expecting believability now? A total rewrite is the best solution tbh. The problem is that the new drow setting is just as uncompelling and low effort as the old.

Edited by - Irennan on 12 Nov 2022 01:44:44
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VaxarKun
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Posted - 14 Nov 2022 :  11:40:16  Show Profile Send VaxarKun a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

TL; DR. The Lolthite drow didn't evolve (or fall) in any believable way for 30+ years, why are we expecting believability now? A total rewrite is the best solution tbh. The problem is that the new drow setting is just as uncompelling and low effort as the old.



While it's generally hard to argue with this, I do want to mention that I for one quite liked that small part in recent RAS books that indicates that the drow were corrupted slowly and weren't always the murderhobos they are now.

I just refuse to believe it was all within Yvonnel 1.0's timeline. That would mean Menzoberranzan entire history 2000 years, which is not much if you live for 500-800 years. My headcanon is that the illithids combined her memories with someone from the actual start of menzoberranzan when they gave them to Quenthel and later Yvonnel 2.0 so that it has greater effect on them since they believe its their mother/grandmother's memories instead of some random drow. Since the characters always seem to question the accuracy & legitimacy of that memory, it doesnt seem too far off imo.
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Irennan
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Posted - 15 Nov 2022 :  01:48:57  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VaxarKun
I for one quite liked that small part in recent RAS books that indicates that the drow were corrupted slowly and weren't always the murderhobos they are now.


It's always been like this, it's not something RAS came up with. The old explanations also works far better, because the Ilythiiri were driven by fear of being subject to the same fate as the Miyeritari, to look for power from whoever would lend it to them. Drastic situations call for drastic measures and all. However, the kind of corruption that came after the exile was just dumb. It's also in the interest of the corrupted people to keep your society working to a degree, otherwise what the hell do you have left to exploit? Especially a society that doesn't have a big, main source of income (say, oil), and has to rely on the performance of its citizens to get things done.
Meanwhile, the Lolthite sytstem as written is sheer stupidity, and would have collapsed very quickly if not for author fiat.

quote:
I just refuse to believe it was all within Yvonnel 1.0's timeline. That would mean Menzoberranzan entire history 2000 years, which is not much if you live for 500-800 years. My headcanon is that the illithids combined her memories with someone from the actual start of menzoberranzan when they gave them to Quenthel and later Yvonnel 2.0 so that it has greater effect on them since they believe its their mother/grandmother's memories instead of some random drow. Since the characters always seem to question the accuracy & legitimacy of that memory, it doesnt seem too far off imo.



RAS is retconning the whole history of drow and elves with something far more trivial and uninteresting. We were told as much in 2021--he said that he wasn't retconning his Menzo, but then gave us a version of drow history that entirely erases the one that the FR had.
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TKU
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 15 Nov 2022 :  04:47:04  Show Profile Send TKU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VaxarKun

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

TL; DR. The Lolthite drow didn't evolve (or fall) in any believable way for 30+ years, why are we expecting believability now? A total rewrite is the best solution tbh. The problem is that the new drow setting is just as uncompelling and low effort as the old.



While it's generally hard to argue with this, I do want to mention that I for one quite liked that small part in recent RAS books that indicates that the drow were corrupted slowly and weren't always the murderhobos they are now.

I just refuse to believe it was all within Yvonnel 1.0's timeline. That would mean Menzoberranzan entire history 2000 years, which is not much if you live for 500-800 years. My headcanon is that the illithids combined her memories with someone from the actual start of menzoberranzan when they gave them to Quenthel and later Yvonnel 2.0 so that it has greater effect on them since they believe its their mother/grandmother's memories instead of some random drow. Since the characters always seem to question the accuracy & legitimacy of that memory, it doesnt seem too far off imo.



Yeah, this retcons the original founding of Menzoberranzan story, where IIRC Menzoberra leads refugees from another drow city that was destroyed, founds the city (which it gets its name from her) then gets killed in a civil war, after which House Nasadra goes its own separate way with its followers and founds Ched Nasad, while those who remained in Menzoberranzan banded around house Baenre.

Menzoberranzan was originally a third generation drow city and there were still a few around that were much older.

My thinking is that WOTC/RAS didn't want Menzo to be second fiddle' to anyone so hence the retconned lore where Menzo is the original (only?) 'drow' city and officially now and always in the past the center of all things evil-drow and Lolth related. Which is a shame because Menzoberranzan and house Baenre already cast too long a shadow over all things concerning drow, IMO. Making Yvonnel *the* most important drow to ever live for being the supreme ruler of the drow essentially for all their history is just nuts and completely destroys so much writing potential.
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redking
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Posted - 26 Nov 2022 :  11:28:13  Show Profile Send redking a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I read Glacier's Edge. Let's see. The ruling class of Menzoberranzan has had a sudden change of heart and is now against Lolth. RAS lazily attempts to produce a rationale for this inexplicable turn of events, fails, and when I read it I got the impression that RAS is sullenly telling the reader, "this is happening because I said it is".

Character motivations for long existing characters like Quenthel make no sense at all. Character interactions among the drow of Menzoberranzan are nonsensical. If someone told me this novel was ghost written by a fanfic writer, I could believe it. 1/5 stars.
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TBeholder
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Posted - 27 Nov 2022 :  01:02:05  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deserk

And wow, I was even surprised RAS deigned to invoke the name of Eilistraee as a patron of a particular character. Heh, though he didn't really delve into it much at all, but at least he's not completely pretending Eilistraee doesn't exist.

IMO it worked... in the sense that Drizzt in his attitudes was essentially a drow version of emo teen. Aversion to his own kind, gloom, doom, "nobody understands meee" and all that.
Even the cool Finnish lady snagged him only by accident. He had no idea of what to do once he got away, and then met a cool old dude to imitate. She was presented and happened to be a goddess who does not poke her followers with sticks all the time. But how much did this change?

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Meanwhile, the Lolthite sytstem as written is sheer stupidity, and would have collapsed very quickly if not for author fiat.

Why exactly? I don't see it.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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