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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3657 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2022 :  06:47:40  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, to be fair, they didn't exactly hide their intention to change all the drow history. They explicitly stated that their goal was to simplify all drow history and focus it on Menzo (their wording even suggested that Menzo was the only udadrow city that we would be seeing in the future). They even took all importance away from the Crown Wars, by saying that a bunch of drow just chose to follow Lolth underground, and that was the origin of everything (dumb on so many levels, and--as usual--probably yet another narrative choice made while not even trying to put yourself within the PoV of your characters). Basically, RAS has erased everything drow that he didn't make--aka the vast majority of it (it's a miracle that he supposedly acknowledged Eilistraee), just like his "I'm the creator of the Forgotten Realms drow" implied.

Edited by - Irennan on 21 Jun 2022 06:51:37
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1071 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2022 :  18:45:20  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, how about we help 'em out a bit to make things less confusing. How about, there were TWO descents? The first one where a majority of the Drow went down to the Underdark after the Crown Wars and a second, much smaller one. The second one, the drow there consider themselves to be the "True Drow" and the center of drow society and have a distorted view of Eilistraee and Mielikki. The rest of the drow consider these guys to be nuts but, hey, if they want to be nuts, let 'em. That way, there can be these delusional drow and the rest of us can have a world history that makes sense.

Edit: fixed typo

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents

Edited by - TheIriaeban on 21 Jun 2022 18:58:20
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
415 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2022 :  20:21:23  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Well, how about we help 'em out a bit to make things less confusing. How about, there were TWO descents? The first one where a majority of the Drow went down to the Underdark after the Crown Wars and a second, much smaller one. The second one, the drow there consider themselves to be the "True Drow" and the center of drow society and have a distorted view of Eilistraee and Mielikki. The rest of the drow consider these guys to be nuts but, hey, if they want to be nuts, let 'em. That way, there can be these delusional drow and the rest of us can have a world history that makes sense.

Edit: fixed typo



I love it.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3657 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2022 :  03:33:58  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Well, how about we help 'em out a bit to make things less confusing. How about, there were TWO descents? The first one where a majority of the Drow went down to the Underdark after the Crown Wars and a second, much smaller one. The second one, the drow there consider themselves to be the "True Drow" and the center of drow society and have a distorted view of Eilistraee and Mielikki. The rest of the drow consider these guys to be nuts but, hey, if they want to be nuts, let 'em. That way, there can be these delusional drow and the rest of us can have a world history that makes sense.

Edit: fixed typo



IMO, you'd be better off just saying that the loren/aevendrow enclaves are cities founded by drow refugees from Miyeritar and Ilythiir alike, who were trying to hide from the mess of the Crown Wars, while the rest of them kept fighting. They isolated in fear (still quite ridiculous that no one notiuced such advanced civilizations over such a long time, though), and now they're resurfacing for whatever reason.

This is because the new lore states that the new enclaves were created by the "normal" drow at the time of Descent, while the others (the nutjobs) followed Lolth underground. The new version implies there's still one descent, but it happened just because some dudes were like "wouldn't it be cool to go underground because some suspicious goddess offered us stuff?"
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TKU
Learned Scribe

USA
123 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2022 :  04:12:32  Show Profile Send TKU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Funnily enough, there is (was) actually a drow city South of Amn that claimed to be the site of the Descent (presumably of the Miyeritari drow, as opposed to Telantiwar, founded by the drow from Ilythiir). Ust Natha-featured in the second Baldur's Gate game. So there is kinda some merit to the idea of 'multiple descents'

That being said, yeah, it is pretty hard to reconcile this with anything preceding it.
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1071 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2022 :  14:56:00  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Well, how about we help 'em out a bit to make things less confusing. How about, there were TWO descents? The first one where a majority of the Drow went down to the Underdark after the Crown Wars and a second, much smaller one. The second one, the drow there consider themselves to be the "True Drow" and the center of drow society and have a distorted view of Eilistraee and Mielikki. The rest of the drow consider these guys to be nuts but, hey, if they want to be nuts, let 'em. That way, there can be these delusional drow and the rest of us can have a world history that makes sense.

Edit: fixed typo



IMO, you'd be better off just saying that the loren/aevendrow enclaves are cities founded by drow refugees from Miyeritar and Ilythiir alike, who were trying to hide from the mess of the Crown Wars, while the rest of them kept fighting. They isolated in fear (still quite ridiculous that no one notiuced such advanced civilizations over such a long time, though), and now they're resurfacing for whatever reason.

This is because the new lore states that the new enclaves were created by the "normal" drow at the time of Descent, while the others (the nutjobs) followed Lolth underground. The new version implies there's still one descent, but it happened just because some dudes were like "wouldn't it be cool to go underground because some suspicious goddess offered us stuff?"



If they really wanted to isolate themselves, they could have used magic it make them like Brigadoon and only appear every so often. They may be permanently back now that the damage caused by the Spellplague has finally destroyed that magic completely. And, now that they ARE back completely, they can be used as a Shangr-La type analog where each enclave feels they have achieved the perfect society with the DM coming up with whatever looks-great-on-the-surface social structure that is hiding a nightmare underneath.


"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3657 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2022 :  21:56:01  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That can make for a cool campaign, though the problem with the new canon is that it actively discourages this approach, since the aevendrow are presented as a real utopia. And Idk, even with magic to hide them (which is currently the case), we're still talking about an advanced civilization fairly close to inhabited areas, and that should leave significant traces/alterations in the environment due to the amount of energy they can harness from it (especially due to the way the Weave works as explained by Ed), that would eventually be noticed over thousands of years. You can have the hidden civilization thing, as long as you talk about the weird phenomena that people have observed in the area over the ages, and that drew their attention and speculation about who would be causing them (example: glaciers melting, temperature changes).
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
415 Posts

Posted - 23 Jun 2022 :  01:52:59  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry for the abrupt topic shift, but I wanted to ask about the Wind Dukes of Aaqa/Vaati. What's their level of power? From reading the FR Wiki, it sounds like they're around deva - solar power levels, tending more towards the deva end of the spectrum, is that the case?

It says that they're immortal, can they choose to "die" when they've lived long enough? When they do, where do their souls go?

Is there any precedence in canon about the passing of Vaati leaving behind a significant natural phenomenon on the Prime, like the formation of a glacier?
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
931 Posts

Posted - 23 Jun 2022 :  05:54:27  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

Sorry for the abrupt topic shift, but I wanted to ask about the Wind Dukes of Aaqa/Vaati. What's their level of power? From reading the FR Wiki, it sounds like they're around deva - solar power levels, tending more towards the deva end of the spectrum, is that the case?

It says that they're immortal, can they choose to "die" when they've lived long enough? When they do, where do their souls go?

Is there any precedence in canon about the passing of Vaati leaving behind a significant natural phenomenon on the Prime, like the formation of a glacier?



Well, in terms of stats they were fairly similar to mortal races NPCs, having Class levels or them stated in Rod of Seven parts adventure (2E), and Mahasarpa mini-setting (3E) (were the base Vaati, without class levels, were CR 2 creatures).
Qadeej himself was presented as a Level 13 Abjurer in 2e, if giving 20,000 xp after defeat, due to his extra abilities.

Lorewise, the Wandering Dukes are stronger than stated - the mentioned Qadeej and Icosiol defeating Miska the Wolf Spider, one of the strongest demon lords at his prime lorewise (refereed as the Queen of Chaos' greatest creation, as well asof course, being the second Prince of Demons, after Obox-Ob and before Demogorgon). Though to be clear Icosiol sacrificed his life, and Qadeej used the Rod of Law (ie latter Rod of Seven parts), but still.

I discussed the Vaati in the "What's the deal with Zaphkiel?" thread, and with some more information you might find interesting:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24438

Edited by - Baltas on 23 Jun 2022 06:08:35
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
415 Posts

Posted - 23 Jun 2022 :  07:28:51  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Well, in terms of stats they were fairly similar to mortal races NPCs, having Class levels or them stated in Rod of Seven parts adventure (2E), and Mahasarpa mini-setting (3E) (were the base Vaati, without class levels, were CR 2 creatures).
Qadeej himself was presented as a Level 13 Abjurer in 2e, if giving 20,000 xp after defeat, due to his extra abilities.

Lorewise, the Wandering Dukes are stronger than stated - the mentioned Qadeej and Icosiol defeating Miska the Wolf Spider, one of the strongest demon lords at his prime lorewise (refereed as the Queen of Chaos' greatest creation, as well asof course, being the second Prince of Demons, after Obox-Ob and before Demogorgon). Though to be clear Icosiol sacrificed his life, and Qadeej used the Rod of Law (ie latter Rod of Seven parts), but still.

I discussed the Vaati in the "What's the deal with Zaphkiel?" thread, and with some more information you might find interesting:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24438



Thank you for your answer! I wasn't aware that Qadeej is actually an existent entity, is it known what befell him ultimately? Or really, any other information that you can share?
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
931 Posts

Posted - 23 Jun 2022 :  08:31:13  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well in The Rod of Seven Parts adventure, Qadeej turned Lawful Evil over milennia, and now wants to restart the war between Law and Chaos. Because of this he wants to release Miska, and if I remember right it works Qadeej if succeds and Miska and the Queen of Chaos (and I guess Qadeej with his alies on theaw side) restart the fosmic war between Law and Chaos.

Makes you wonder if Ygorl doesn't share this goal and somehow will work with Qadeej in some way. Possibly awakening/releasing him in future.

Edited by - Baltas on 23 Jun 2022 08:33:29
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
415 Posts

Posted - 23 Jun 2022 :  09:06:28  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Well in The Rod of Seven Parts adventure, Qadeej turned Lawful Evil over milennia, and now wants to restart the war between Law and Chaos. Because of this he wants to release Miska, and if I remember right it works Qadeej if succeds and Miska and the Queen of Chaos (and I guess Qadeej with his alies on theaw side) restart the fosmic war between Law and Chaos.

Makes you wonder if Ygorl doesn't share this goal and somehow will work with Qadeej in some way. Possibly awakening/releasing him in future.



Wow, that's... not at all what I was expecting. I can't say more currently but I will after the book's official release date.

I'll see if I can get the PDF of the Rod of Seven Parts on DMsGuild. Does Qadeej appear in any other material?
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1071 Posts

Posted - 23 Jun 2022 :  14:55:46  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

That can make for a cool campaign, though the problem with the new canon is that it actively discourages this approach, since the aevendrow are presented as a real utopia. And Idk, even with magic to hide them (which is currently the case), we're still talking about an advanced civilization fairly close to inhabited areas, and that should leave significant traces/alterations in the environment due to the amount of energy they can harness from it (especially due to the way the Weave works as explained by Ed), that would eventually be noticed over thousands of years. You can have the hidden civilization thing, as long as you talk about the weird phenomena that people have observed in the area over the ages, and that drew their attention and speculation about who would be causing them (example: glaciers melting, temperature changes).



If they spend 99.99% of the time on another plane, they will not have a lasting effect on the Weave or the enviornment. Oh, odd things could happen when the city is currently on the material plane but it would disappear once the city "goes back into hiding" on the other plane. That would give intermittent weirdness that doesn't lead to anything.

As for your previous point about unlimited supplies, what if they are on the Ethereal plane? Illusion spells take some of the stuff of the plane itself to make that item real. It slowly fades as if "weathered" after the end of the spell but it doesn't immediately go away (page 19 of the 2e Manual of the Planes). A permanent illusion spell would make a permanent item in the Ethereal plane. That could be how they have unlimited resources. Now that they are back on the material plane permanently, that would be a REAL adjustment since they would have to deal with the loss of those "unlimited" resources.

There would be other effects if it WAS the Ethereal plane. Since time moves at a slower rate, it would have been only 1,000 years for them while 10,000 years would have passed on Toril. Also, if they appear only once a year, their time, they would only be on Toril for 1 day every 10 years (if a Brigadoon-type model is followed). The environment could certainly restore itself over 10 years after a single day of "distortion".

These are just some ideas I have had. I am not familiar with the source material for these cities. But, when RAS gives you lemons, make some lemonade.

Edit: fixed typos

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents

Edited by - TheIriaeban on 23 Jun 2022 15:26:53
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3657 Posts

Posted - 23 Jun 2022 :  15:43:58  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
But, when RAS gives you lemons, make some lemonade.



I was more of discussing this for the sake of discussing the fiction itself (I stopped using FR for TTRPG a while ago), but yeah, if someone wanted to run with RAS' stuff, the "we were on another plane the whole time" idea could work as an explanation (also, the idea of permanent illusions in the Ethereal plane is pretty cool)--as long as you're willing to consider the impact that living on the Ethereal plane would have on a society, and make it the strong point of your worldbuilding, your "what if". And that's the problem with this new lore: there's no will to examine the consequences of your premises, which is what makes up the core of worldbuilding, after all. It all starts from a "what if", and you explore it to come up with the ideas that best fit your story, but this worldbuilding doesn't have a "what if" that generates the other ideas, it just wants its utopian city, and lazily uses fantasy elements as a quick explanation to allow them to have that city. Without giving more than a passing thought to how things would really work under that premise (or to how to build interesting conflict using that premise).

And I mean, you found a way to have their "utopian civilization out of nowhere" in a way that can make sense within the FR, by just bouncing a few ideas around. It's little work, yet they couldn't even be bothered to do that. They just went with "they hide under a glacier and have infinite resources and no problems and no one found them, because a wizard did it".

The problem isn't making it work in a campaign--each DM has unlimited creative freedom and could come up with whatever to justify stuff, even outside of canon (though I'd personally use the time I'd spend on fixing someone else's shoddy work to instead build something from the ground up that fits the kind of narrative that I want). The problem is that little to no thought went into this on their side, and abysmal quality worldbuilding is getting dumped in the Realms.

Then again, I already know this, and have distanced myself from FR in large part because of this, so I should probably stop commenting on this stuff. But Idk, I guess it feels bad to see something you used to cherish become shoddy to the point that you can't enjoy it any longer (that's because my enjoyment of the FR was more in the story and world itself, rather than in using it as a TTRPG setting that lets me re-experience the version that I enjoyed).

Edited by - Irennan on 23 Jun 2022 15:46:54
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Athreeren
Acolyte

35 Posts

Posted - 23 Jun 2022 :  18:10:43  Show Profile Send Athreeren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TKU

Funnily enough, there is (was) actually a drow city South of Amn that claimed to be the site of the Descent (presumably of the Miyeritari drow, as opposed to Telantiwar, founded by the drow from Ilythiir). Ust Natha-featured in the second Baldur's Gate game. So there is kinda some merit to the idea of 'multiple descents'

That being said, yeah, it is pretty hard to reconcile this with anything preceding it.



I completely agree. It would be strange for such an important city not to be mentioned anywhere else in lore, but if it's just the point from where the Illythiiri from the Wealdath chose to follow Lolth to the part of the Underdark that's located underneath Amn, independently of the others who chose to do so at other times, then Ust Natha would only matter to the Drow of that region, who don't seem to appear on the map either. I actually have a similar explanation for the Tree of Life, whose influence should be considered as merely local, regardless of what the local propaganda claims.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6440 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2022 :  04:20:02  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TKU

Funnily enough, there is (was) actually a drow city South of Amn that claimed to be the site of the Descent (presumably of the Miyeritari drow, as opposed to Telantiwar, founded by the drow from Ilythiir). Ust Natha-featured in the second Baldur's Gate game. So there is kinda some merit to the idea of 'multiple descents'

That being said, yeah, it is pretty hard to reconcile this with anything preceding it.



The "canonicity" of the computer games has always been one of significant conjecture. The last "official" pronouncement on that topic was all the way back in 2E days when Jim Butler took over from Jeff Grubb as "traffic cop" of the Realms. His word on that topic was straightforward and simple: nothing in the computer games was "canon" unless it was subsequently mentioned/written up/followed up in either a gaming or fiction product of the FR line.

That's the approach I've taken ever since and so, as nicely as possible, Ust Natha doesn't exist in "my" Realms. I know many take a contrary view and that's fine but given practically all of the people/places/events of the computer games were created and existed in a vacuum, I've found trying to reconcile that "lore" far more of a hindrance than a benefit.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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