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 Thultanthar crashing on Myth Drannor
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
432 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2022 :  06:41:02  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
A bit of an older topic, but I remember at the time that Thultanthar crashing on Myth Drannor was talked about in The Sundering novels, that in the Salvatore novel it was stated that it crashed onto Myth Drannor, but in at least one other novel it was described that it'd crashed elsewhere. I remember that Thultanthar wasn't called by that name in the Salvatore novel, instead called "Shade", so there were theories posited by fans that one way to reconcile the discrepancy in different novels was to say that multiple floating Netherese cities had crashed.

However, the SCAG reinforces what was described in Salvatore's novel about Thultanthar crashing into Myth Drannor.

I'm curious if anyone remembers better than I do the discrepancy about where Thultanthar/Shade crashed?

PattPlays
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434 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2022 :  10:04:21  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had to double check this because I keep getting them mixed up.

In 1484DR, a son of Mephistopheles contacts the returned psychic netherese enclave of Sakkors. To fight Shar, who somehow was kept in a stormcloud for 110 years but only then was a problem for some reason, the city crashed into Ordulin (already ruined a century ago) and broke the clouds.
Not even four years later in 1487DR we have the plotline of, again, 'stopping shar and the netherese and their returned flying city by the use of magical youths' and they do the same 'crash it into something' plan.
The way I know it, the Tree of Life was the place (the replanted tree) in Myth Drannor where Shade impacted, but elf wizards raised a ward over the tree just in time to protect it while the impact levels the rest of the city.

But yes, even in my 1487DR campaign I am running I constantly conflate the Ordulin Maelstrom with the Sundering events of the restoration of Mystra (another thing that had been done already multiple times before, with Mystral 'returning' half a dozen times before).

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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
873 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2022 :  20:49:43  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You are correct Thultanthar the main "City of Shade" crashed into reclaimed Myth Drannor in Ed's Sundering novel. The remains of Myth Drannor (it wasn't completely destroyed) were covered in an Adventure League softcover module too, Lost Tales of Myth Drannor, which probably falls in the semi-canonical category.
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
432 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2022 :  08:51:35  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is there any particular reason why Shade had to crash into Myth Drannor? If it was just coincidental how that worked out in universe, what about outside of the pages? Is there any information on why WotC felt that Myth Drannor needed to have that to happen to it?
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sleyvas
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USA
11222 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2022 :  14:28:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

Is there any particular reason why Shade had to crash into Myth Drannor? If it was just coincidental how that worked out in universe, what about outside of the pages? Is there any information on why WotC felt that Myth Drannor needed to have that to happen to it?



Official? Bet not. Betting they just wanted to reset Myth Drannor to a dungeon setting again for 5e (since it was done in a sundering novel by Ed)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
873 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2022 :  18:54:20  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Sleyvas has the right of it. WotC and the Sundering authors said they were resetting the setting to undo many of the changes wrought by 4E and the Spellplague because they felt that 4E really changed the tone in a bad way. As part of that, we see a lot of things go back to late 2E or early 3E era, so Myth Drannor back to being a ruin for exploration fits with that.
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sleyvas
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11222 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2022 :  19:25:32  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just my thoughts on the whole crashing city thing though.... I picture Thultanthar as nowhere near the size of Myth Drannor.... saying that without looking at a map... but honestly I wonder just how much damage even that falling city could have done. I mean, its not like it fell with the speed of a meteor coming in from space, and it only fell a relatively short distance in comparison. Might it be somewhat comparable to the impact of the two world trade center buildings collapsing (a little worse probably mind you).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
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Canada
7654 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2022 :  20:21:04  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Netherese enclaves were typically inverted mountains. Large mountains with large cross-sectional surface areas and dense foundation/structures.

Even falling from a "low" altitude of several miles, a mountain would smash the ground hard enough to penetrate and ripple the surface over a large area or to break apart and scatter over a larger area. The impact site(s) would be obliterated, crushed and buried. But I suspect most of the city-wide damage would be earthquakes and secondary effects in a large radius. Hardly enough to utterly destroy an entire city. The cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki survived largely intact after being hit with nukes - but the "indirect" destruction to their populations (and logistics, economies, industries, agriculture, etc) were profound on horrifying scales.

If the damage is much greater - as described - then it must have something to do with a violent interaction when the mythal and the mythallar came into contact.

Maybe the thing to do is ask mister RAS what scale of damage he envisioned when he wrote the event.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Jul 2022 20:26:28
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
36142 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2022 :  20:29:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ed has said a good amount of Myth Drannor survived.

quote:
When the POSSIBLE danger of Thultanthar crashing became apparent (i.e. when the city started flying towards Myth Drannor, not when what El did became obvious) the Srinshee contacted all the Myth Drannan baelnorn she could and commanded them to get to the Tree of Souls and magically shield and defend it, warping the Weave to form a protective barrier around it (so when Thultanthar came crashing down, it would punch through the city like a spike, and protect the Tree). This was done, and the Tree has survived. There has been some consternation among certain readers about Myth Drannor being entirely in ruins, but not so. Like any city that’s been fought through, a big cleanup is in order, but Thultanthar is a pretty small city, and Myth Drannor, being “at one with the forest” [growing trees as dwellings, trees and moss and open forest terrain everywhere, not human-habit “pave over everything” architecture, is a very large (in footprint) city. So a relatively small area of Myth Drannor was pancaked under the shattered remnants of Shade.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11222 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2022 :  20:52:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Netherese enclaves were typically inverted mountains. Large mountains with large cross-sectional surface areas and dense foundation/structures.

Even falling from a "low" altitude of several miles, a mountain would smash the ground hard enough to penetrate and ripple the surface over a large area or to break apart and scatter over a larger area. The impact site(s) would be obliterated, crushed and buried. But I suspect most of the city-wide damage would be earthquakes and secondary effects in a large radius. Hardly enough to utterly destroy an entire city. The cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki survived largely intact after being hit with nukes - but the "indirect" destruction to their populations (and logistics, economies, industries, agriculture, etc) were profound on horrifying scales.

If the damage is much greater - as described - then it must have something to do with a violent interaction when the mythal and the mythallar came into contact.

Maybe the thing to do is ask mister RAS what scale of damage he envisioned when he wrote the event.



Yeah, that's what I was kinda picturing. That being said, I don't even picture it being miles in the air. I'm picturing maybe 500 feet? Like the world trade center where it decimated the surrounding buildings for several blocks.... maybe quadruple that radius (or 16 times the area)?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
432 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2022 :  13:33:02  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

You are correct Thultanthar the main "City of Shade" crashed into reclaimed Myth Drannor in Ed's Sundering novel. The remains of Myth Drannor (it wasn't completely destroyed) were covered in an Adventure League softcover module too, Lost Tales of Myth Drannor, which probably falls in the semi-canonical category.



My memory's pretty fuzzy about Ed's novel, but I seem to recall that in Salvatore's Sundering novel Shade crashed into Myth Drannor, whereas in Ed's, it crashed into some other place. Can anyone remember if that's the case?
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2683 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2022 :  02:04:27  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

You are correct Thultanthar the main "City of Shade" crashed into reclaimed Myth Drannor in Ed's Sundering novel. The remains of Myth Drannor (it wasn't completely destroyed) were covered in an Adventure League softcover module too, Lost Tales of Myth Drannor, which probably falls in the semi-canonical category.



My memory's pretty fuzzy about Ed's novel, but I seem to recall that in Salvatore's Sundering novel Shade crashed into Myth Drannor, whereas in Ed's, it crashed into some other place. Can anyone remember if that's the case?



It was in Ed's novel, the Herald, and it was indeed Myth Drannor that it crashed into. Ilsevele and Starbrow survive, and they take elven refugees to places like Evereska and Semberholme. But Ed has since said that only a portion of the city was actually destroyed.

Salvatore's novel had nothing to do with Myth Drannor.

Sweet water and light laughter
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lsls
Acolyte

34 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2022 :  16:35:44  Show Profile Send lsls a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In Salvatore's novel "Maestro", city of shade crashed into Anauroch(not far from the Desai encampment).
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6477 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2022 :  09:10:29  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by lsls

In Salvatore's novel "Maestro", city of shade crashed into Anauroch(not far from the Desai encampment).



Salvatore should read more widely and his editor should do their job properly. Ed destroyed Thultanthar in 2014. Maestro came out in 2016.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2381 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2022 :  18:13:40  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always had in my mind the idea that Shade had crashed into the outskirts of Myth Drannor somewhere near Lover's Glade. This would allow for both the catastrophic impact and the less than catastrophic total annihilation of the city.

Basically, I see the event as a giant meteor storm that his the city and wiped out small areas, leaving it's map pretty much as it was in the Ruins of Myth Drannor box set - right where E.G. always wanted it :P
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
820 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2022 :  00:20:48  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by lsls

In Salvatore's novel "Maestro", city of shade crashed into Anauroch(not far from the Desai encampment).



Salvatore should read more widely and his editor should do their job properly. Ed destroyed Thultanthar in 2014. Maestro came out in 2016.

-- George Krashos



I'm pretty sure Bob stopped caring about it being a shared world a long time ago and does things like this intentionally to piss off general realms and D&D fans. His editor is likewise not an employee of Hasbro, but a friend who isn't catering to realms fans, but Bob's fans.

He said in an interview he had Drizzt kill demogorgon just to piss off realms fans who annoyed him on forums and please his personal fans who think Drizzt and Kane can beat anyone. He literally said if he ever got permission to use Elminster in a book, he would have Drizzt beat him straight up in a fight because he is writing it and his character gets to win.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2683 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2022 :  00:33:01  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, that is ..pretty conceited, and doesn't reflect well on him as a person.

Sweet water and light laughter
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
432 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2022 :  01:23:29  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Holy shit, I'd not heard of that. It doesn't at all surprise me that he feels that way, I'm just surprised that he actually confirmed it out loud. Guess he's no longer pretending to be something he's not.

Got a source for that @Firestorm? I know a bunch of others who would be interested to know that and although I take your word for it, some of them have never even heard of Candlekeep before. I feel like RAS does this shit because he feels like there won't ever be any repercussions for it. That may very well be true, but it's not going to stop me from calling him out on it. However, I'd definitely like to do so with proof in my hand, if that makes sense.

Edited by - sno4wy on 12 Aug 2022 01:29:58
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2277 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2022 :  03:18:28  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Just my thoughts on the whole crashing city thing though.... I picture Thultanthar as nowhere near the size of Myth Drannor.... saying that without looking at a map... but honestly I wonder just how much damage even that falling city could have done. I mean, its not like it fell with the speed of a meteor coming in from space, and it only fell a relatively short distance in comparison. Might it be somewhat comparable to the impact of the two world trade center buildings collapsing (a little worse probably mind you).



Have you watched "Avengers: Age of Ultron"? I guess the destruction of Sokovia can be used as an example.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
820 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2022 :  19:13:56  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

Holy shit, I'd not heard of that. It doesn't at all surprise me that he feels that way, I'm just surprised that he actually confirmed it out loud. Guess he's no longer pretending to be something he's not.

Got a source for that @Firestorm? I know a bunch of others who would be interested to know that and although I take your word for it, some of them have never even heard of Candlekeep before. I feel like RAS does this shit because he feels like there won't ever be any repercussions for it. That may very well be true, but it's not going to stop me from calling him out on it. However, I'd definitely like to do so with proof in my hand, if that makes sense.



I have to go looking for the tweet from years ago for the Demogorgon thing because I am unsure which interview it is from. it was a snippet from another interview.

The Elminster one I am sure i saved to my PC as it was during a Q & A so I am looking for it among the thousands of files I have lol. it was part of a larger conversation about how Star Wars Fans were pissed he killed Chewbacca. "Who would win between Drizzt and Elminster?" His answer was "Who is writing it? If I write it, Drizzt does a fancy move and kills him, If Ed is writing it, El waives his hand a Drizzt Turns into a puddle. But if I ever get to use Elminster in a book, I WILL kill him"
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
873 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2022 :  00:44:55  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be fair, it sounds like Salvatore was joking about the Drizzt El fight. I wouldn't read much into it. Of course, that's not to say that he abides by any lore past 2E.
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

845 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2022 :  15:30:26  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

To be fair, it sounds like Salvatore was joking about the Drizzt El fight. I wouldn't read much into it. Of course, that's not to say that he abides by any lore past 2E.



I agree, the question was stupid enough that any reply was surely going to be sarcastic.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36142 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2022 :  20:48:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

To be fair, it sounds like Salvatore was joking about the Drizzt El fight. I wouldn't read much into it. Of course, that's not to say that he abides by any lore past 2E.



I agree, the question was stupid enough that any reply was surely going to be sarcastic.



While I'm not going to weigh in on whether or not the answer was a joke, the question may have been serious -- it's not uncommon for a character's most rabid fans to claim the character can take on anyone. Look at Batman's fans, for example -- even though he's a vanilla mortal, his fans will readily, and at length, explain how he can beat any one you care to name, given enough time to prepare.

We've seen enough X vs. Y debates to know that there likely are people that truly believe Drizzt could kill Elminster. (And to be fair, he likely could, under a very specific set of highly improbable circumstances)

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
432 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2022 :  01:04:08  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not sure if this is in the same vein as RAS joking or him being a jerk to other writers, but in a recent Reddit AMA (Aug 13), when he was asked about who he'd have Drizzt fight from another world, he answered, "Raistlin from Dragonlance, just to prove to Margaret that Drizzt is the real deal." He follows it up with, "Raistlin would go down. Fast. (If I'm writing it.)"

I don't know anything about his relationship with the Dragonlance authors.
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