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PattPlays
Senior Scribe

431 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2021 :  03:26:30  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

I found a snippet in an old scroll citing Cloak & Dagger which says the Scepter was broken into Five parts and that DMs should consider scattering it across the planes.




I think if you re-download the file, you'll see that it's always said five parts, not seven.

Also, we've always been at war with Kara-Tur. :-)

--Eric



I would have never guessed to check! And here I was thinking about the importance of seven as it relates to an ascended six, as per the spellweavers. Well, for anyone in the future with an old copy of the Jergal write-up, there you have it.

The seven jewels on the Shattered Scepter narrative still follows, though. Not to mention that the true Scepter never got completed. Had the original artificer been able to complete it in Imaskar, there may have not been any gods on Toril by the time Jergal was born- save any with sparks stored in the Scepter. I see now how the randomness of the original weapon's banishing worked flawlessly to inform the history that the item never once was allowed to be completed before it was used- again explaining why it shatters at all.

I also am excited to have recently discovered (or re-discovered, if I had forgotten) the Second Imaskarcana. If I ever need to use this scepter, I know the macguffin that teaches someone how. It is a shame that I can't have a plane-hopping harper archmage be looking for the scepter's fragments across the planes if the item is bound to the material.

I mean now I have to ask, it's not even able to bridge the gap into the border ethereal to drift to another material plane, right? I assume it is bound to Toril itself? This is all too familiar to that one scroll's ravings about the planet being a prison-engine using primordials (arbitrary primal spirits who lost to other primal spirits to paint the widest of strokes) to cruelly power a magic weave . . .

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:


https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com

T_P_T
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1115 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2022 :  18:39:01  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eric, in the Noble Houses of Waterdeep Web Enhancement, you have Lord Huld Belabranta having a long term relationship with the succubus Elinaera. Did you determine what year that relationship may have begun? I am looking to use a family member around 1366 who is at least N if not NE or LE. I figure this person was a favorite of Huld's until his apprentice Rycc Khaernos was able to convince Huld to send this individual away on a specific task (Rycc saw the person as his greatest rival).

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2004 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2022 :  10:21:22  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Eric, in the Noble Houses of Waterdeep Web Enhancement, you have Lord Huld Belabranta having a long term relationship with the succubus Elinaera. Did you determine what year that relationship may have begun? I am looking to use a family member around 1366 who is at least N if not NE or LE. I figure this person was a favorite of Huld's until his apprentice Rycc Khaernos was able to convince Huld to send this individual away on a specific task (Rycc saw the person as his greatest rival).



So if you look at FR1 - Waterdeep and the North, page 46, you'll see he's listed as NG (as of 1357 / 1358 DR).

If you look at City of Splendors (boxed set): Who's Who in Waterdeep, page 11, you'll see he's listed as NE as of 1367 DR. Note also the statement, current as of 1367 DR: "Tavern tales say he was once a smiling, generous host years ago, but something dark now infests his home and his soul."

So, based on that I would say his transformation from NG -> NE probably happened in 1359 DR, 1360 DR at the latest. The explanation is in footnote #5 in the Noble Houses web enhancement.

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1115 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2022 :  18:07:22  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Eric, in the Noble Houses of Waterdeep Web Enhancement, you have Lord Huld Belabranta having a long term relationship with the succubus Elinaera. Did you determine what year that relationship may have begun? I am looking to use a family member around 1366 who is at least N if not NE or LE. I figure this person was a favorite of Huld's until his apprentice Rycc Khaernos was able to convince Huld to send this individual away on a specific task (Rycc saw the person as his greatest rival).



So if you look at FR1 - Waterdeep and the North, page 46, you'll see he's listed as NG (as of 1357 / 1358 DR).

If you look at City of Splendors (boxed set): Who's Who in Waterdeep, page 11, you'll see he's listed as NE as of 1367 DR. Note also the statement, current as of 1367 DR: "Tavern tales say he was once a smiling, generous host years ago, but something dark now infests his home and his soul."

So, based on that I would say his transformation from NG -> NE probably happened in 1359 DR, 1360 DR at the latest. The explanation is in footnote #5 in the Noble Houses web enhancement.

--Eric




Thank you good sir. I saw that the change was because of the succubus in the footnote but I wasn't sure of the timeline for it (different people have different definitions for "long term".)

That also offers up a clarification for the individual I am looking to use. I need individuals for a flying mount business and I am thinking of having a Belabrantan working with a former member of the Flying Hunt of Nimbral (the Belabrantan handles the breeding and training of the mount while the ex-Flying Hunt member offers the training in air borne riding.)

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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kysus
Seeker

USA
90 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2022 :  02:17:02  Show Profile  Visit kysus's Homepage Send kysus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Eric i enjoyed reading the new content you added to the underillfarn especially seeing as it covered some realms i was very interested in, it made me really giddy lol. And at last i have some questions i was hoping you would be able to answer. the 1st is the Audark tarlspira and the Quess’kerym
Illefarnam, would there happen to be any more bits of lore on these items that you might have come up with like what they might import to their users and possible locations or rumors there of. Also am i correct in thinking that the unicorn blade thats in the mere of dead men series one of the quess'kerm? for my 2nd question i saw that you had added the coat of arms for a number of kingdoms and was wondering if any of the elven realms also had a coat of arms that they used or if that was something that elven culture did differently than the other races?
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2022 :  05:29:12  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kysus

Hey Eric i enjoyed reading the new content you added to the underillfarn especially seeing as it covered some realms i was very interested in, it made me really giddy lol. And at last i have some questions i was hoping you would be able to answer. the 1st is the Audark tarlspira and the Quess’kerym
Illefarnam, would there happen to be any more bits of lore on these items that you might have come up with like what they might import to their users and possible locations or rumors there of. Also am i correct in thinking that the unicorn blade thats in the mere of dead men series one of the quess'kerm? for my 2nd question i saw that you had added the coat of arms for a number of kingdoms and was wondering if any of the elven realms also had a coat of arms that they used or if that was something that elven culture did differently than the other races?



Whilst I would never dare to horn in on Eric's action, but Ed gave some information on elven heraldry here:

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3684&whichpage=52

My take on Ed's post would be however that no elven major realm had a specific coat of arms/battle banner after the Crown Wars. The Vyshaan and Aryvandaar almost certainly had battle banners for the realm once they came into power and the Crown Wars went into full swing. So the Illefarn of the Audark era had no banner signifying the realm itself (although the Audarks certainly did).

With the dissolution of Illefarn proper into its vassal realms and the increasing contact with other races, especially humans, the elves of Rilithar, Iliyanbruen, Ardeep and Irithar likely created realm badges/blazons for use when dealing with outside powers and when marching to war. Just what those badges may have been ... well, Eric and I haven't got to them yet. But will in time.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2004 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2022 :  07:03:11  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kysus

Hey Eric i enjoyed reading the new content you added to the underillfarn especially seeing as it covered some realms i was very interested in, it made me really giddy lol. And at last i have some questions i was hoping you would be able to answer. the 1st is the Audark tarlspira and the Quess’kerym
Illefarnam, would there happen to be any more bits of lore on these items that you might have come up with like what they might import to their users and possible locations or rumors there of. Also am i correct in thinking that the unicorn blade thats in the mere of dead men series one of the quess'kerm?



Agree with what George wrote on heraldry.

I haven't detailed the Audark tarlspira yet, but it is a critical piece of the campaign I'm currently writing. It's an Illefarni crown that a certain drow family (House Fey-Branche of Jhachalkhyn) promised they would sacrifice to Lolth starting in -206 DR. The fact that they have repeatedly failed to recover it to date puts them in a perilous position. See "Havens of Miyeritar" on DM's Guild for further information.

The Quess’kerym Illefarnam is a concept I'm just starting to work out. My thought was that there are nine magical blades, each one unique. One for the Coronal of House Audark, and then two per realm. For each of the four realms (Irithar, Ardeep, Rilithar, and Ilyanbruen), there is one sword wielded by the ruler (e.g. laranlor) and one sword wielded by the heir. Alikerym, better known as the Unicorn Blade was discussed first in Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast and then in Dungeon #73 - Eye of Myrkul. The Unicorn Blade was the blade assigned to the heir to the throne of Irithar.

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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kysus
Seeker

USA
90 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2022 :  07:10:12  Show Profile  Visit kysus's Homepage Send kysus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah thank you george for that, i have been wondering about that for a while now and cant believe i have missed that from the lady hooded one. what you said also makes alot of sense now with how in one of ed's articles there is a sigil for silvenade but not sharrven or earlann, i can see if silvenade was trying to emulate Aryvandaar they would also create a standard for their realm. Also if you dont mind i also have some questions for you as well that i will post on your thread when i get a chance to write them out.
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kysus
Seeker

USA
90 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2022 :  07:21:06  Show Profile  Visit kysus's Homepage Send kysus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you for the reply eric, i new the Audark tarlspira sounded familiar. i do have that havens of miyeritar article, i enjoyed that one alot its one of the few reasons i have an account on dms guild, that and one of the articles george wrote on and elven group in cormyr. Well i cant wait to see what you and George come up with for the varies elf blades!
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2004 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2022 :  04:03:31  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Glad to be of service. Feel free to ask your questions here. I'll answer the ones that I can (and make stuff up if it'll annoy George).

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1115 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2022 :  17:11:22  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eric, I want to be sure I have not missed anything about the Trail of Mists. Do you know of any other references to it other than the Mintiper's Chapbook article you wrote? I have an idea for a gnome-built "Mistcart" that they would use to move goods along the Trail of Mists and I want to make sure that the design and operation doesn't conflict with any published material about the Trail.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2004 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2022 :  18:46:43  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Eric, I want to be sure I have not missed anything about the Trail of Mists. Do you know of any other references to it other than the Mintiper's Chapbook article you wrote? I have an idea for a gnome-built "Mistcart" that they would use to move goods along the Trail of Mists and I want to make sure that the design and operation doesn't conflict with any published material about the Trail.



–3150 The Trail of Mists is established to speed the escape of gnome slaves from Netheril. (The Grand History of the Realms, page 29.)

Here's some stuff I wrote relatively recently:

Netherese Enslavement of the Forgotten Folk
In -3655 DR, the Twintusk Horde swept down from the Spine of the World, inflicting devastation across the Savage North. The western branch of the horde of mountain orcs marched through the Moonlands in the upper reaches of the Dessarin river valley, while the eastern branch of the horde flowed through the Vale of the Tallwalkers (Modern: Hartsvale) into the open lands to the east, home to the Rengarth barbarians. While the western branch of the Twintusk Horde was crushed between the combined armies of Illefarn and Netheril, the eastern branch was relatively unopposed, as the ogre empire of Morokheim had collapsed in -4104 DR, leaving the northern grasslands to the humans of the Rengarth tribes.
With only the scattered tribes of Rengarth to oppose them, the eastern branch of the Twintusk Horde swept south, only to smash against the defenses of the rock gnomes of Feloarhode (Modern: The Tagorlar), who had only recently been discovered by the Netherese. The Realm of Glinting Gems might well have collapsed if not for the unexpected aid of Netheril’s burgeoning wizard class who flew across the Narrow Sea.
All of the gratitude the Forgotten Folk felt towards the Netherese soon soured, as the Netherese sent emissaries to the Court of Feloarhode in -3649 DR to collect on what they felt was due to them for their aid. The rock gnome darandar (king) was hardly in any position to reject their demands, so he agreed to supply the Netherese with an annual tribute of craft goods in exchange for their protection.
This concession caused great tumult among the gnomish clans of Feloarhode. Some clan leaders argued for continued cooperation with the Netherese, while others pointed to the fact that Netheril had already annexed the Rengarth tribal lands for lack of sufficient payment and that they were likely next. In the end, most of the clans supported the gnomish king, who enjoyed the strong support of the Church of Garl Glittergold, but three clans and the clergy of Gelf Darkhearth rejected his strategy of appeasement and withdrew from the Realm of Glinting Gems.
In the years that followed, it soon became apparent that the Netherese viewed the Forgotten Folk as little better than slaves. Every time the darandar of Feloarhode raised the issue of ending the annual tribute, Netherese rumormongers quickly spread word of another looming orc horde. By -3520 DR, the Forgotten Folk were actively seeking ways to flee the whims of the Netherese, slipping over the border to the west, south, and east. By -3150 DR, with the aid of the Fair Folk, the gnomes began escaping from Netheril in large numbers by way of the Trail of Mists.
In the end, the Realm of Glinting Gems collapsed after the gnomes refused to work for the Netherese anymore. Unable to compel the inhabitants of Feloarhode with magic to be creative, the Netherese granted the Forgotten Folk their emancipation in -2387 DR. However, by that time, the vast majority of gnomes had fled far afield. While most moved south and east, some fled west into the Dessarin river valley, founding Garlanda, the Realm of Glittering Gold, amidst the rolling hills along the River Dessarin.



--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1115 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2022 :  19:58:08  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you and very nice. You worked Gelf Darkhearth into it, too.

Edit: Follow-up question: Just to clarify how far you can travel on the Trail of Mists, given someone of average INT (11) and if that person can travel a typical 10 hours in a day, they would be able to travel 110 miles (10 x 11 mph). But, since the Boarder Ethereal affects how quickly a person gets fatigued (1/10 the normal rate), it would be possible for that person to travel for 100 hours at 11 mph and thus have a journey of 1100 miles. That would mean that there would need to be a nexus at a maximum of every 1100 miles (roughly) within the Trail of Mists network. Is that consistent with your design of the Trail of Mists?

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents

Edited by - TheIriaeban on 12 Jun 2022 01:35:02
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6012 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2022 :  21:17:07  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

–3150 The Trail of Mists is established to speed the escape of gnome slaves from Netheril. (The Grand History of the Realms, page 29.)

Here's some stuff I wrote relatively recently:

Netherese Enslavement of the Forgotten Folk
In -3655 DR, the Twintusk Horde swept down from the Spine of the World, inflicting devastation across the Savage North. The western branch of the horde of mountain orcs marched through the Moonlands in the upper reaches of the Dessarin river valley, while the eastern branch of the horde flowed through the Vale of the Tallwalkers (Modern: Hartsvale) into the open lands to the east, home to the Rengarth barbarians. While the western branch of the Twintusk Horde was crushed between the combined armies of Illefarn and Netheril, the eastern branch was relatively unopposed, as the ogre empire of Morokheim had collapsed in -4104 DR, leaving the northern grasslands to the humans of the Rengarth tribes.
With only the scattered tribes of Rengarth to oppose them, the eastern branch of the Twintusk Horde swept south, only to smash against the defenses of the rock gnomes of Feloarhode (Modern: The Tagorlar), who had only recently been discovered by the Netherese. The Realm of Glinting Gems might well have collapsed if not for the unexpected aid of Netheril’s burgeoning wizard class who flew across the Narrow Sea.
All of the gratitude the Forgotten Folk felt towards the Netherese soon soured, as the Netherese sent emissaries to the Court of Feloarhode in -3649 DR to collect on what they felt was due to them for their aid. The rock gnome darandar (king) was hardly in any position to reject their demands, so he agreed to supply the Netherese with an annual tribute of craft goods in exchange for their protection.
This concession caused great tumult among the gnomish clans of Feloarhode. Some clan leaders argued for continued cooperation with the Netherese, while others pointed to the fact that Netheril had already annexed the Rengarth tribal lands for lack of sufficient payment and that they were likely next. In the end, most of the clans supported the gnomish king, who enjoyed the strong support of the Church of Garl Glittergold, but three clans and the clergy of Gelf Darkhearth rejected his strategy of appeasement and withdrew from the Realm of Glinting Gems.
In the years that followed, it soon became apparent that the Netherese viewed the Forgotten Folk as little better than slaves. Every time the darandar of Feloarhode raised the issue of ending the annual tribute, Netherese rumormongers quickly spread word of another looming orc horde. By -3520 DR, the Forgotten Folk were actively seeking ways to flee the whims of the Netherese, slipping over the border to the west, south, and east. By -3150 DR, with the aid of the Fair Folk, the gnomes began escaping from Netheril in large numbers by way of the Trail of Mists.
In the end, the Realm of Glinting Gems collapsed after the gnomes refused to work for the Netherese anymore. Unable to compel the inhabitants of Feloarhode with magic to be creative, the Netherese granted the Forgotten Folk their emancipation in -2387 DR. However, by that time, the vast majority of gnomes had fled far afield. While most moved south and east, some fled west into the Dessarin river valley, founding Garlanda, the Realm of Glittering Gold, amidst the rolling hills along the River Dessarin.






Not wanting to argue, but i love Netheril and had a real hard time working with what was in the Netheril boxed set or understanding a lot of what happened in the First Age, i'm still not sure about it based upon the above.


The discovery of the Rengarth in the first age is attributed to scouts who report back to Seventon. At that time Netheril and Seventon is the same and it is only 200 years since the 7 fishing villages banded together.

There were no settlements outside Seventon that we know of (Zenith was founded in -3637 DR to supplement trade and Northread was founded in -3552 to help supply its explorers. This does not sound like an empire able to annex territory, it is a backwater territory barely making forays into exploring its surroundings.

The Netheril boxed set notes that the presence of Netherese during the battle against the orc horde was a token at best (and it notes Netheril's low population at the time).

I always had a huge problem with the arrival of Earlanni elves in Netheril so early in Netheril's development (it should have been a secret exchange) due to the huge distance between them, and then the involvement of Netheril in that huge orc horde so far away.

The annexation of the Rengarth in -3655 DR in GHoTR further compounded the issue and should probably have been a beginning (as it established ties and trust - forged in battle - between the Rengarth and Netherese allowing them to overcome the misunderstandings that happened (most likely initial encounters with the Rengarth ended in blood around the Riders to the Sky Mountains but those scouts were never heard from again).

If you look at the technology and magic timeline (something else i really dont trust in the Netheril boxed set), they had nothing more than cantrips, and their armaments were hide armour and spears. This meant the Rengarth were possibly culturally and technologically superior to the Netherese which again makes annexation unlikely.



Again not wanting to argue, you know i love your work, but if we cannot count on the baseline Netheril boxed set, why should we count on dates derived from that such as GHoTR (which introduced the annexation of the Rengarth as a date rather than a progression).

Anyways, i really look forward to anything you write involving Netheril, because in the end i had to trust geography and common sense over the Netheril boxed set.

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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2004 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2022 :  22:13:16  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Thank you and very nice. You worked Gelf Darkhearth into it, too.


Yeah, I was inspired by the other thread.

quote:

Edit: Follow-up question: Just to clarify how far you can travel on the Trail of Mists, given someone of average INT (11) and if that person can travel a typical 10 hours in a day, they would be able to travel 110 miles (10 x 11 mph). But, since the Boarder Ethereal affects how quickly a person gets fatigued (1/10 the normal rate), it would be possible for that person to travel for 100 hours at 11 mph and thus have a journey of 1100 miles. That would mean that there would need to be a nexus at a maximum of every 1100 miles (roughly) within the Trail of Mists network. Is that consistent with your design of the Trail of Mists?




Sounds about right, but I'd have them 2-4x times more frequent, just so you can have intermediate waystops. (Get off where it's interesting.)

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2004 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2022 :  22:21:26  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Not wanting to argue, but i love Netheril and had a real hard time working with what was in the Netheril boxed set or understanding a lot of what happened in the First Age, i'm still not sure about it based upon the above.



Yeah, the Netheril boxed set is pretty awful.

For the time being, I haven't thrown it overboard, but I'm trying to make it a little more sensible.


quote:

The discovery of the Rengarth in the first age is attributed to scouts who report back to Seventon. At that time Netheril and Seventon is the same and it is only 200 years since the 7 fishing villages banded together.



The US reached the moon less than 200 years after the founding of the country. Humans are ingenious.

I'm thinking to make the timeline, as given, work, you have to assume that little Seventon is becoming a magocracy within 200 years. It doesn't have a lot of territory yet, but it does have powerful magic. The lands to the North are a power vacuum since the collapse of Morokheim (ogres), leaving only the gnomes and the Rengarth. Later they will go south and west, conquering those lands. (What's there? Not sure yet, other than Thraevael, Land of Alabaster Towers.)

As for the horde, this was the Netherese arcanists' first big moment. They flew across the Narrow Sea and rained fireballs down on the orcs.

Note that I split the hoard in two pieces, with the western bit being fought by Eaerlann and Illefarn. The eastern bit is the gnomes, the Rengarth, and the Netherese. That's loosely consistent with the exact wording, but not precisely consistent.

The actual annexation of the Rengarth lands was probably more aspirational than effective. After all it's a long time til the Netherese even figure out that dwarves exist, suggesting they are not exactly establishing forts on the perimeter of their new territory. (The exact date is given in GHotR, so the reference to "rock people" has to be to the gnomes, since that comes at an earlier date.)

Nonetheless, the gnomes can probably see the trajectory here, and they can guess what's coming in terms of Netheril's aspirations.

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1115 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2022 :  23:59:01  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
I'm thinking to make the timeline, as given, work, you have to assume that little Seventon is becoming a magocracy within 200 years. It doesn't have a lot of territory yet, but it does have powerful magic. The lands to the North are a power vacuum since the collapse of Morokheim (ogres), leaving only the gnomes and the Rengarth. Later they will go south and west, conquering those lands. (What's there? Not sure yet, other than Thraevael, Land of Alabaster Towers.)



Based on various sources, I have come up with the following for the Sunset Mts/Sunset Vale area that the Netherese would have run into when they hit that area in their expansion:

The giants at the future Darkhold (I have them there to make better sense of the published Darkhold history). They are refugees of the war between the giants of Nedeheim and High Shanatar. They constructed the Darkhold just after the end of the Giant Wars.

The Horsemen of Ur (groups of nomadic horsemen that wander Sunset Vale and The Tunlands). Their burial ground was under current day Asbravn. They were originally some of the nomads from the Shaar that had established themselves in Sunset Vale by about -5400.

The Talfir in the Chionthar river valley and parts of the Reaching Woods. In my timeline, I have this entry in -10110:

The destruction of Shantal Othreier almost wiped out the resident Talfir people. They were only able to survive this by throwing themselves into the Chionthar river to escape the flames. This brought to the fore the water goddess Dathallere and added peace to her portfolio since she was the only god able to halt the fires created by the warring elves at the behest of Tempos (as viewed by the Talfir). It also took millennia for the Talfir to even think about moving away from the Chionthar river valleys because of the "time the world burned."


"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 29 Jun 2022 :  22:17:40  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Eric, I want to be sure I have not missed anything about the Trail of Mists. Do you know of any other references to it other than the Mintiper's Chapbook article you wrote? I have an idea for a gnome-built "Mistcart" that they would use to move goods along the Trail of Mists and I want to make sure that the design and operation doesn't conflict with any published material about the Trail.



–3150 The Trail of Mists is established to speed the escape of gnome slaves from Netheril. (The Grand History of the Realms, page 29.)

Here's some stuff I wrote relatively recently:

Netherese Enslavement of the Forgotten Folk
In -3655 DR, the Twintusk Horde swept down from the Spine of the World, inflicting devastation across the Savage North. The western branch of the horde of mountain orcs marched through the Moonlands in the upper reaches of the Dessarin river valley, while the eastern branch of the horde flowed through the Vale of the Tallwalkers (Modern: Hartsvale) into the open lands to the east, home to the Rengarth barbarians. While the western branch of the Twintusk Horde was crushed between the combined armies of Illefarn and Netheril, the eastern branch was relatively unopposed, as the ogre empire of Morokheim had collapsed in -4104 DR, leaving the northern grasslands to the humans of the Rengarth tribes.
With only the scattered tribes of Rengarth to oppose them, the eastern branch of the Twintusk Horde swept south, only to smash against the defenses of the rock gnomes of Feloarhode (Modern: The Tagorlar), who had only recently been discovered by the Netherese. The Realm of Glinting Gems might well have collapsed if not for the unexpected aid of Netheril’s burgeoning wizard class who flew across the Narrow Sea.
All of the gratitude the Forgotten Folk felt towards the Netherese soon soured, as the Netherese sent emissaries to the Court of Feloarhode in -3649 DR to collect on what they felt was due to them for their aid. The rock gnome darandar (king) was hardly in any position to reject their demands, so he agreed to supply the Netherese with an annual tribute of craft goods in exchange for their protection.
This concession caused great tumult among the gnomish clans of Feloarhode. Some clan leaders argued for continued cooperation with the Netherese, while others pointed to the fact that Netheril had already annexed the Rengarth tribal lands for lack of sufficient payment and that they were likely next. In the end, most of the clans supported the gnomish king, who enjoyed the strong support of the Church of Garl Glittergold, but three clans and the clergy of Gelf Darkhearth rejected his strategy of appeasement and withdrew from the Realm of Glinting Gems.
In the years that followed, it soon became apparent that the Netherese viewed the Forgotten Folk as little better than slaves. Every time the darandar of Feloarhode raised the issue of ending the annual tribute, Netherese rumormongers quickly spread word of another looming orc horde. By -3520 DR, the Forgotten Folk were actively seeking ways to flee the whims of the Netherese, slipping over the border to the west, south, and east. By -3150 DR, with the aid of the Fair Folk, the gnomes began escaping from Netheril in large numbers by way of the Trail of Mists.
In the end, the Realm of Glinting Gems collapsed after the gnomes refused to work for the Netherese anymore. Unable to compel the inhabitants of Feloarhode with magic to be creative, the Netherese granted the Forgotten Folk their emancipation in -2387 DR. However, by that time, the vast majority of gnomes had fled far afield. While most moved south and east, some fled west into the Dessarin river valley, founding Garlanda, the Realm of Glittering Gold, amidst the rolling hills along the River Dessarin.






I was combing through the Trail of Mists article and I found this:

"The Netherese enslaved the Forgotten Folk for centuries, despite a series of failed revolts, employing them as craftsmen and inventors. Small groups of gnomes regularly escaped captivity, but most were quickly discovered and killed by the Netherese."

Those groups of gnomes that excaped sound like they were in the Netherese enclaves and related cities. Were they pulled from Feloarhode or were they subjugated separately? Feloarhode doesn't sound like a prison camp so it would seem those gnomes would have to have been elsewhere.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2004 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2022 :  11:53:51  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I was combing through the Trail of Mists article and I found this:

"The Netherese enslaved the Forgotten Folk for centuries, despite a series of failed revolts, employing them as craftsmen and inventors. Small groups of gnomes regularly escaped captivity, but most were quickly discovered and killed by the Netherese."

Those groups of gnomes that escaped sound like they were in the Netherese enclaves and related cities. Were they pulled from Feloarhode or were they subjugated separately? Feloarhode doesn't sound like a prison camp so it would seem those gnomes would have to have been elsewhere.



So my thought is that "early in the enslavement," most gnomes lived in Feloarhode and the kingdom offered tribute to the Netherese. However, over time, many gnomes were brought into Netherese cities and enclaves to toil, and the slavery became more peronsal / horrific.

--Eric

--
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 04 Jul 2022 :  16:17:50  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I was combing through the Trail of Mists article and I found this:

"The Netherese enslaved the Forgotten Folk for centuries, despite a series of failed revolts, employing them as craftsmen and inventors. Small groups of gnomes regularly escaped captivity, but most were quickly discovered and killed by the Netherese."

Those groups of gnomes that escaped sound like they were in the Netherese enclaves and related cities. Were they pulled from Feloarhode or were they subjugated separately? Feloarhode doesn't sound like a prison camp so it would seem those gnomes would have to have been elsewhere.



So my thought is that "early in the enslavement," most gnomes lived in Feloarhode and the kingdom offered tribute to the Netherese. However, over time, many gnomes were brought into Netherese cities and enclaves to toil, and the slavery became more peronsal / horrific.

--Eric



Thank you. Applying some math with some assumptions, that would give the total population of gnomes at about 302,500 at the start of the enslavement. That would be a decent population for a thriving kingdom.

Assumptions:
5,000 starting group of gnomes in -25,400
A gnome generation is about 400 years
That works out to be about 55 generations by the time the enslavement starts.
Reproductive survival rate for a pre-magic-wielding, average fertility, small race of 2.2 kids/couple.

Do the assumed numbers seem reasonable or do you think there should be more or less gnomes at that time?

Edit: A minor clarification in the assumptions.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents

Edited by - TheIriaeban on 04 Jul 2022 16:24:30
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2004 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2022 :  16:31:36  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban


Thank you. Applying some math with some assumptions, that would give the total population of gnomes at about 302,500 at the start of the enslavement. That would be a decent population for a thriving kingdom.

Assumptions:
5,000 starting group of gnomes in -25,400
A gnome generation is about 400 years
That works out to be about 55 generations by the time the enslavement starts.
Reproductive survival rate for a pre-magic-wielding, average fertility, small race of 2.2 kids/couple.

Do the assumed numbers seem reasonable or do you think there should be more or less gnomes at that time?

Edit: A minor clarification in the assumptions.



300,000 seems like a large population, TBH. I would think it would be much smaller ... perhaps 30k-100k.

How big are you assuming the population of Netheril was around this time?

--
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 06 Jul 2022 :  18:56:52  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the US went from 2148 to 209,000 over the space of 200 years so I would say about 210,000 people in Netheril at that time (starting population was 7 villages of 300 people each = 2100). As the empire expanded, it annexed land where there was already humans residing so the population growth was fueled by births and "immigration" (much like the US). Of course, they also had 200 years of magical study so by the time of the enslavement, I would expect Netheril to have WMDs (Wizards of Mass Destruction). So, while the gnomes may have had a larger population overall, Netheril's magic backed army could have easily taken them out. But, as you wrote, they used fear of another Orc Horde to keep them inline without having to actually attack them (so your idea of using fear to control them was right on the money).

As for the 302,500 gnomes. That would have broken down into:

151,250 Rock Gnomes = 75,625 males, 45,375 females, 30,250 kids
90,750 Forest Gnomes = 45,375 males, 27,225 females, 18,150 kids
60,500 Deep Gnomes = 30,250 males, 18,150 females, 12,100 kids
As a kingdom, if it was only 100 miles across and 100 miles long, that would work out to being only 30 gnomes per square mile on average. Given the fact that Rock and Deep Gnomes would be living in underground cities/villages with multiple levels, that average would give the Forest Gnomes a much smaller number of gnomes per square mile for their surface villages, towns, etc.

The Netherese would have likely never seen the Deep Gnomes since would have lived deep in the mountains. They may have seen the Forest Gnomes but not known they are a different subspecies. It would have likely been the Rock Gnome forces that really provided the resistance to the Orc's advance and would have been seen by the Netherese as "The Gnomes". So, it was from this Rock Gnome population that they pulled their slaves from.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11211 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2022 :  23:03:05  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I was combing through the Trail of Mists article and I found this:

"The Netherese enslaved the Forgotten Folk for centuries, despite a series of failed revolts, employing them as craftsmen and inventors. Small groups of gnomes regularly escaped captivity, but most were quickly discovered and killed by the Netherese."

Those groups of gnomes that escaped sound like they were in the Netherese enclaves and related cities. Were they pulled from Feloarhode or were they subjugated separately? Feloarhode doesn't sound like a prison camp so it would seem those gnomes would have to have been elsewhere.



So my thought is that "early in the enslavement," most gnomes lived in Feloarhode and the kingdom offered tribute to the Netherese. However, over time, many gnomes were brought into Netherese cities and enclaves to toil, and the slavery became more peronsal / horrific.

--Eric



Thank you. Applying some math with some assumptions, that would give the total population of gnomes at about 302,500 at the start of the enslavement. That would be a decent population for a thriving kingdom.

Assumptions:
5,000 starting group of gnomes in -25,400
A gnome generation is about 400 years
That works out to be about 55 generations by the time the enslavement starts.
Reproductive survival rate for a pre-magic-wielding, average fertility, small race of 2.2 kids/couple.

Do the assumed numbers seem reasonable or do you think there should be more or less gnomes at that time?

Edit: A minor clarification in the assumptions.



I'm not sure that a gnomish generation is 400 years... that would imply they live about 1200 years (to accomodate 3 generations in a person's lifetime). It's probably less, which would mean even more generations. That being said, Toril is probably a much more dangerous world than our own is due to all the monsters. By that, I mean even though the west was wild.... it's not like the people there were literally eating one another (or not often anyway). Even a 10% population growth like you mention might not be realistic. That being said, I half wonder what WOULD be an appropriate number.

Out of curiosity, I'd like to compare the percentages just for discussions sake (and using 55 generations, as you mention).

Taking the 10% population growth number per generation that you mention and calculating it as 1.1 ^ 55 ... that ends up being a multiple of 189 times the original number.

Changing that 10% population growth number to a 5% and calculating it as 1.05 ^ 55 ... that ends up only being a multiple of 14 times the original number.



Then I started wondering, "what was population growth like during the middle ages". So, I found this site
which has this table

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_demography

Demographic tables of Europe's population in millions
Year Tot pop Avg growth per year, %
1300 78.7 0.15
1350 70.7 -0.21
1400 78.1 0.20
1450 83.0 0.12

So, the average percentage of growth per year over 200 years was 0.13%. If we convert that to "generations" that would be only 2.6% per generation. So, I would say that if in our relatively safe world the population growth was only 2.6% then a 10% growth is too much. I would also say that Toril's population growth should be less than our own world due to its dangers. Dropping that number to maybe 2% instead of 2.6% and doing 55 generations

1.02 ^ 55 = 2.9 .... so not even tripling the population over 55 generations.

Now, if we say a gnome generation is 133 years instead of 400 (I know they reach adulthood at 40, but they also live to 350 to 500 years), then we can triple your 55 generations to 165.

1.02 ^ 165 = 26.24 .... so that would be about 26 times the original population.

Now, if we say that even a 2% population growth is a lot per generation in Toril and drop that to 1.5% per generation
1.015 ^ 165 = 11.6 or 11 times the starting number.

Obviously, we don't know the actual population growth numbers for the world, but given the dangers I'm inclined to say that they're lower than our own in the middle ages (magic may help things, but conflicts with monsters don't). It is kind of an interesting topic though to see how drastically even a slight variation in the number changes the end result.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 06 Jul 2022 23:04:08
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TheIriaeban
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Posted - 07 Jul 2022 :  01:08:14  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, to save space, I am not going to quote all that but I will respond with a few points

1. Generations is being used the same way it was depicted on page 99 of the Complete Book of Dwarves. There, a generation for Mountain Dwarves is 400 years. I figured the average for Gnomes would be about the same 400 years (Forest Gnomes live longer and Deep Dwarves live shorter). Over those 400 years, a couple would be able to produce roughly 2.2 kids that would survive to be able to reproduce themselves. That takes into account a couple things: a dangerous world and encouragement (and some protection) from the Gnome gods to "go forth and multiply". Families may have 3 or 4 kids each but the world knocks it down to 2.2.

2. You cannot use that period of 1300-1500 as any kind of example of population growth. The Black Death was during that time and will skew the numbers.

3. So, your last point moves it to 11 times the initial 5,000 to 55,000. So, what you are saying is that over span of 21,745 years, the Gnomes have only grown by 50,000 (or just a bit over 2 gnomes per year). If their population growth rate is that low, how do you account for the fact that you can find gnomes in almost every major human city in the Realms over only an additional 5,000 years? That would be one heck of a gnome population explosion.

4. If I use my numbers without including a civilization improvement, that puts the entire, worldwide numbers at 4.1 million gnomes around 1500 DR. A slight bump to 1.2 put it at 4.5 million gnomes. Given how big the world is, that sounds about right. You have enough to be just about everywhere without there being so many that you are tripping over them.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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TheIriaeban
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Posted - 08 Jul 2022 :  19:37:45  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eric, I should probably clarify a bit on what I am thinking based on using your Feloarhode lore to really be the seed for the history of gnomes in the Realms. The gnomes are refugees from another crystal sphere. Garl used his divine might to transform as many gnomes as he could into gems (because of their durability) and scattered them among other crystal spheres to guarantee the survival of the gnome race. On Toril, those "gnome-gems" appeared in a cavern in The Tagorlar Mountains. It is there that Garl "created" the gnome race on Toril (actually, all he did was release them from their individual "life rafts"). Those gnomes went on to found Feloarhode so the kingdom, at that time, really is pretty much the entire gnome race on Toril. The kingdom was strong enough to keep the local kobolds and such at bay but once the Netherses showed up, gnomes started to leave the kingdom and migrate elsewhere (a "Second Scattering" if you will--I'll come up with a better name later). That way, there were other gnome communities that the Elves could get their "gnome escapees" to and the final evacuation of Feloarhode was the rulers and such to the Sunrise Mountains and the genesis of the gnome Kingdom of Songfarla.

So, currently, what survives of Feloarhode is a kobold and monster infested series of tunnels and chambers. The "Mother Cave" may or may not still be there (to find out would be a nice adventure seed). I am thinking that most gnomes do not know all of this information. In that case, each of the major gnome god temples will have a "Hodenar" who is a keeper of the full history of the race.

When I have time, I will expand on this (as long as it doesn't collide with other lore) and put it on DMsGuild.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

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Posted - 14 Jul 2022 :  12:54:36  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sounds wonderful.

The only thing to add is to suggest you look at the sidebar in Grand History of the Realms, page 9.

There's an implication that gnomes came earlier than Feloarhode. It might be apocryphal, or it might have been an earlier migration. I tried to be ambiguous in my write-up to allow for a possible earlier arrival date.

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Eric, I should probably clarify a bit on what I am thinking based on using your Feloarhode lore to really be the seed for the history of gnomes in the Realms. The gnomes are refugees from another crystal sphere. Garl used his divine might to transform as many gnomes as he could into gems (because of their durability) and scattered them among other crystal spheres to guarantee the survival of the gnome race. On Toril, those "gnome-gems" appeared in a cavern in The Tagorlar Mountains. It is there that Garl "created" the gnome race on Toril (actually, all he did was release them from their individual "life rafts"). Those gnomes went on to found Feloarhode so the kingdom, at that time, really is pretty much the entire gnome race on Toril. The kingdom was strong enough to keep the local kobolds and such at bay but once the Netherses showed up, gnomes started to leave the kingdom and migrate elsewhere (a "Second Scattering" if you will--I'll come up with a better name later). That way, there were other gnome communities that the Elves could get their "gnome escapees" to and the final evacuation of Feloarhode was the rulers and such to the Sunrise Mountains and the genesis of the gnome Kingdom of Songfarla.

So, currently, what survives of Feloarhode is a kobold and monster infested series of tunnels and chambers. The "Mother Cave" may or may not still be there (to find out would be a nice adventure seed). I am thinking that most gnomes do not know all of this information. In that case, each of the major gnome god temples will have a "Hodenar" who is a keeper of the full history of the race.

When I have time, I will expand on this (as long as it doesn't collide with other lore) and put it on DMsGuild.


--
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Edited by - ericlboyd on 14 Jul 2022 12:57:12
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1115 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2022 :  17:32:04  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

Sounds wonderful.

The only thing to add is to suggest you look at the sidebar in Grand History of the Realms, page 9.

There's an implication that gnomes came earlier than Feloarhode. It might be apocryphal, or it might have been an earlier migration. I tried to be ambiguous in my write-up to allow for a possible earlier arrival date.

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Eric, I should probably clarify a bit on what I am thinking based on using your Feloarhode lore to really be the seed for the history of gnomes in the Realms. The gnomes are refugees from another crystal sphere. Garl used his divine might to transform as many gnomes as he could into gems (because of their durability) and scattered them among other crystal spheres to guarantee the survival of the gnome race. On Toril, those "gnome-gems" appeared in a cavern in The Tagorlar Mountains. It is there that Garl "created" the gnome race on Toril (actually, all he did was release them from their individual "life rafts"). Those gnomes went on to found Feloarhode so the kingdom, at that time, really is pretty much the entire gnome race on Toril. The kingdom was strong enough to keep the local kobolds and such at bay but once the Netherses showed up, gnomes started to leave the kingdom and migrate elsewhere (a "Second Scattering" if you will--I'll come up with a better name later). That way, there were other gnome communities that the Elves could get their "gnome escapees" to and the final evacuation of Feloarhode was the rulers and such to the Sunrise Mountains and the genesis of the gnome Kingdom of Songfarla.

So, currently, what survives of Feloarhode is a kobold and monster infested series of tunnels and chambers. The "Mother Cave" may or may not still be there (to find out would be a nice adventure seed). I am thinking that most gnomes do not know all of this information. In that case, each of the major gnome god temples will have a "Hodenar" who is a keeper of the full history of the race.

When I have time, I will expand on this (as long as it doesn't collide with other lore) and put it on DMsGuild.





Thank you for pointing me to that sidebar. I had forgotten it. Given the fact that there were already gnomes outside the gems at the time and that Garl wasn't there when the kobolds found them, that leads me to believe there may have been more than one "Mother Cave". In hindsight, that makes sense that you wouldn't have all the gnome-gems in one location if you wanted to ensure survival of the race. Garl could have directed released gnomes to go to the other "Mother Caves" to retrieve the gems for him so he can stay in one location and just open the gems as they were brought to him.

As for gnomes predating Feloarhode, that is what I was thinking. The gnomes would have settled in The Tagorlar Mountains and only after a few millennia of growth would the Kingdom of Feloarhode have been created. Probably at the urging of Garl so as to formalize the cooperation of all the gnomes of the area or to settle some dispute between the groups.

Edit: In the spirit of full disclosure, I plugged my gnome population growth numbers into a spreadsheet and the numbers were very different than what I had thought they would be. It would appear that I had not counted on what is essentially compound interest. To correct for that, there would have to had been an event that killed off a substantial number of gnomes. Perusing the GHotR with this in mind leads me to believe that The Sundering killed off 2/3rds of the gnomes. It would take them 4,000 years to recover from that.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents

Edited by - TheIriaeban on 17 Jul 2022 00:55:38
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1115 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2022 :  06:03:23  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eric, I hate to keep bugging you but could I get a bit of a clarification? If you look at the map of Netheril on page 34 of GHotR, the location for Feloarhode would be the most southern portion of the Channel Mountains, southeast of Quagmire, possibly near the head waters of the east branch of the Watercourse river?

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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