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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2004 Posts

Posted - 17 May 2006 :  17:56:49  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

That's cool Eric about the song dragons/were dragons, but I was mostly repeating what Ed said on the subject and so, without better info I was directing the poster to read the Weredragon ecology since Ed has said, in his past replies, that song dragons and were dragons are the same thing.



And just to be clear, I'm not contradicting that association.

I'm simply saying that while song dragons play the same role as weredragons did in 2e, 3e song dragons have significantly different abilities than 2e weredragons that impact the roleplaying of such creatures (e.g. reproduction, descendants, gender, etc.) and not just the rules.

Therefore, I'd suggest that the best way forward is to assume that most 2e weredragons are now song dragons in 3e, but that there are exceptions. (Some 2e weredragons might be represented in 3e as something else. Some 3e song dragons might not have been weredragons in 2e.) In the case of specific weredragons, I'd rather not say until circumstances dictate a decision must be made.

Look at the discussion of Essembra in DoF when it comes out.

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe

Canada
592 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2006 :  00:57:44  Show Profile Send Foxhelm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another Dragon question:
2002-Faith and Panthoens
2004-Draconomicon
2006-Races of the Dragon

What is the current situation surrounding Hlal? In 2002, Hlal was a dragon god. In previous edition, Hlal was noted as the Realms aspect of Aasterinian. Hlal was CG, Aasterinian was CN.

In Draconomicon and RoDr, they were two seperate dieties.

My main question:

In the realms are Hlal and Aasterinian two different dieties, who perhap impersonate each other? Are the different aspects with different stats like Shekinester? Are they a diety that has some how split, like Tymora and Beshaba with better relations?

Is it alright to use the Diety/Cleric stats used in Drac and RoDR for the realms as they include Realms ports, or will they be stated different in Dragons of Faerun?

Sorry if it is NDA, I am just curious for character creation.
Thanks.

Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems!
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1796 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2006 :  04:19:48  Show Profile Send Purple Dragon Knight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks a lot for the reply Eric!

Seeing that Bane has returned already, who would you say is next to be resurrected? I look forward for your future conversions! (just bought "AoW: Endgame", and I CANNOT believe how disgusting the stats of Kyuss are... I'm seriously wondering if he is even beatable by a party of 20th-level...)
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2004 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2006 :  04:29:38  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
What is the current situation surrounding Hlal?



NDA.

However, following the most recent publications (Dracononicon and Races of the Dragon) would be a good bet.

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2006 :  07:16:29  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion

Eric,

Talona seems to have druid worshippers, according to Faiths and Pantheons, yet she is not listed as a "nature deity" in the FRCS - which I thought was the absolute requirement for attracting druid followers and being able to grant druid spells. Why does she have druids as followers, and could virtually any non-nature deity "corrupt" or convert druids to follow him/her?



I thought I answered this somewhere already. Anyhow ...

In my personal campaign, I pay no attention to restrictions on which gods can be nature deities (in other words, it has to make sense, but I'm willing to consider almost any deity).

Likewise, in my personal campagin I pay no attention to restrictions on which gods exist in 3e.

In game design, I often "forget" about both lists.

--Eric



Eric,

it is a GREAT idea that Talona does have druid followers, although I always thought that the Blightbringer Prestige Class in Unapproachable East would have been meant for Moander, if he/it would have been 'alive and well' in Canon Realmslore when that tome was written.

By the way, I wish to thank you and Ed for the 'Moander rises from the rot'-campaign seed/idea in Power of Faerūn - this was what I had been hinting at in my campaigns for a long time (and plan to take my PCs to Darkwatch some time in the future)

I agree with you that the rules should not hinder any ideas that concerns deities For example, I think that the idea that Lolth was masquerading as Moander (which you wrote about in Faiths and Avatars) was brilliant, but she could hardly do it anymore in 3.X edition with her available Salient Divine Abilities (likewise, Tempus can't resurrect anyone anymore, because he lacks the necessary domains and abilities).

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2006 :  07:38:47  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion

Eric,

another idea - would some elements/members within the Ev possibly try to tap into Moander's slumbering power in Darkwatch, in the finest Starym tradition?



I always thougth Moander was a much better "evil elf god" than Lolth to corrupt surface elves (and said such in Demihuman Deities in the Lolth write-up). So yes, it's possible. However, again, I think that EV are not a very religious organization or, if they are, they are more heretics than willing to deal with dark elements.

Another idea: perhaps there's a fallen eladrin of great power (shades of Malkizid) that the EV could worship at the cost of a Thrall to Demon feat equivalent.

--Eric



Thanks, Eric!

I asked about this (the EV and their relationship to religion), because several recent sourcebooks have said that the EV are desperate to gain a divine sponsor. I don't like the idea that they would have learned to "tap directly into nature's power" (mentioned in the Champions of Ruin). Rather, I would see them corrupted into serving a demon/deity while thinking it to be an elven power.

Your response gave me the idea that perhaps one of the prominent EV members would become Moander's slave while visiting Tsornyl/Darkwatch, and start preaching a heresy about an elven "hero deity"/saint/forgotten god, that would embody the very ideals that the EV stands for. Having probably consumed several powerful elven individuals (and their memories) in Tsornyl, Moander could assume the shape of this elven hero/ascended mortal, maybe in the same sense that the Ghost Naga disguise adopted by Druuth Daern in the original Ruins of Myth Drannor boxed set? I just love the Heretic of the Faith feat - it is such a marvelous tool for a DM

I also liked your idea about a fallen eladrin, but perhaps it would be more likely that the EV would follow a clearly divine being than a "mere" demon? Although this fallen celestial might also appear in a disguise. I certainly see that the Fey'ri might worship a demon lord.

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2006 :  08:41:50  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well Eric,

All I can say, as I said twice now, is until there is a ecology for song dragons that is different then that of were dragons, use the were dragon ecology since Ed, as I said, has said they are one and the same. Now, if Dragons of Faerun has changed that, fine, otherwise there is no other ecology for song dragons except for the weredragon ecology and so until that sourcebook comes out, the were dragon info is the best info to use.

That said, you can continue to debate the point to me but I'll remain unconvinced that they are different and that half-song dragons should exist. So, another 3/3.5e error I'll have to ignore.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium

Edited by - Kuje on 18 May 2006 08:57:02
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2004 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2006 :  14:36:58  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight

Thanks a lot for the reply Eric!

Seeing that Bane has returned already, who would you say is next to be resurrected? I look forward for your future conversions! (just bought "AoW: Endgame", and I CANNOT believe how disgusting the stats of Kyuss are... I'm seriously wondering if he is even beatable by a party of 20th-level...)



I'd expect rumors of the other two being resurrected to spread during the early part of the finale (while the PCs are back in Magepoint, preparing to go to Alhaster).

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe

149 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2006 :  15:51:37  Show Profile  Visit Swordsage's Homepage Send Swordsage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

That said, you can continue to debate the point to me but I'll remain unconvinced that they are different and that half-song dragons should exist. So, another 3/3.5e error I'll have to ignore.



I don't think Eric is debating the point but rather telling you definitively the way that were/song dragons will be dealt with in 3E and in "Dragons of Faerūn". New lore trumps old and published works replace Ed's musings - there is no "error" to be ignored. Well, unless you like living in the past.

The Swordsage
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Octa
Learned Scribe

USA
138 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2006 :  17:30:32  Show Profile  Visit Octa's Homepage Send Octa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eric- I have a quick Faiths and Pantheons question, well maybe not that quick because it is a game balance question. And regards PRCs and Domain abilities.

I understand the Logic to removing advancement in Turn/Remove undead for most of the Divine PRCs, its makes things just too powerfull for most cleric PRCs. But the Domain powers in lots of those PRCs just make sense to advance with caster level. A prime example of this is the Windwalker PRC, I'm thinking of letting the Turn/Rebuke Air ability stack with cleric levels. Do you think this is imbalancing??

I guess in the end I am probably in favor of actually allowing for advancement of all domain abilities with caster level.

Anyways, thanks so much for the answer on Selunnara.
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2004 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2006 :  17:54:37  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Octa

Eric- I have a quick Faiths and Pantheons question, well maybe not that quick because it is a game balance question. And regards PRCs and Domain abilities.

I understand the Logic to removing advancement in Turn/Remove undead for most of the Divine PRCs, its makes things just too powerfull for most cleric PRCs. But the Domain powers in lots of those PRCs just make sense to advance with caster level. A prime example of this is the Windwalker PRC, I'm thinking of letting the Turn/Rebuke Air ability stack with cleric levels. Do you think this is imbalancing??


That sounds fine.

quote:
I guess in the end I am probably in favor of actually allowing for advancement of all domain abilities with caster level.

Anyways, thanks so much for the answer on Selunnara.



Glad to help.

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1273 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2006 :  20:35:26  Show Profile Send Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi,

After discovering this "Sleep of Ages" jewel, I returned to Drizzt's guide to Underdark..

Do you know why Ilt'Zokir was not included in 3E Underdark ? Or maybe I should try with Rich Baker ?

With Zokir's "emmisary" (Vaxall) one of the important character behind the Banite presence around the Lake, it's a bit strange that it was not at least briefly mentioned.

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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2004 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2006 :  23:07:53  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic

Hi,

After discovering this "Sleep of Ages" jewel, I returned to Drizzt's guide to Underdark..


Glad you liked it.

quote:
Do you know why Ilt'Zokir was not included in 3E Underdark ? Or maybe I should try with Rich Baker ?

With Zokir's "emmisary" (Vaxall) one of the important character behind the Banite presence around the Lake, it's a bit strange that it was not at least briefly mentioned.


No idea. Ask Rich.

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1796 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2006 :  20:38:50  Show Profile Send Purple Dragon Knight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Eric,

My players are halfway through the Halls of Harsh Reflections, and they have unmasked the Unseen infiltration throughout Waterdeep, bringing all papers and documents to the City Watch. A few questions in relation to that:

1. Did the Unseen mention their organization by name anywhere in all the documents found in Telakin's lair? (or did the PC just uncovered useful info in regards to the extent and specificity of the infiltration? does the Unseen organization has a 'policy' of never mentioning their brotherhood's name, members' true names, and do they only assign missions verbally so as not to leave a paper trail?)

2. Now that the PCs have passed all that info to the Watch, which was reviewed by a Magister as the PCs had to appear in court on a non-related matter, thus reducing their sentence by half, do you think that:
i) The info would most likely be snatched back/covered up by members of the Unseen in disguise (i.e. what's the level of infiltration here? is is that bad?)
ii) The info would immediately come to the attention of the Lords, which would put the Gray Hands on the matter, and perhaps enlist the PCs in the Gray Hands?
iii) The info would come to the attention of the Moonstars, Harpers or other good organizations? (i.e. the PCs are most likely to leave Waterdeep when their business is concluded there, and I've been trying to introduce them to secret 'good' organizations as they have reached 9th level and are most likely capable enough to attract the attention of valorous brotherhoods)
iv) The info or the PC's existence and potential threat would come to be known by other evil organizations throughout Waterdeep, and if so, which ones are most likely to get wind of that in your opinion?

Sorry for the long string of questions, but any guidance or opinion would be welcomed at this stage of my campaign.

NOTE: As an aside, one of the PC (a gnomish businessman) has come to the attention of Elaith Craulnobur. The gnome has taken a gnomish merchant 'princess' from the Dragonjaw Mountains under his wing (she's his cohort now). However the gnome is unaware of her past, which involved her in a coup against a large duergar mercantile caravan in the Underdark (she was part of a strikeforce that decimated the caravan, and she and other gnomes have profited immensely from the loot). She is known to Elaith (I have not decided the reason, but would he be above sponsoring/investing in Underdark trade? )

I welcome the input of any scribe on that one!
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2006 :  08:09:30  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic

Hi,

After discovering this "Sleep of Ages" jewel, I returned to Drizzt's guide to Underdark..


Glad you liked it.

quote:
Do you know why Ilt'Zokir was not included in 3E Underdark ? Or maybe I should try with Rich Baker ?

With Zokir's "emmisary" (Vaxall) one of the important character behind the Banite presence around the Lake, it's a bit strange that it was not at least briefly mentioned.


No idea. Ask Rich.



Eric, I also like to thank you for this module, since it has also played a big role in our longest-running campaign (in which we are about to play your recent Dungeon modules next ;).

We freed the sleeping Knights to battle the eye tyrants of the Alimir hive and their Cyricist allies (Banites in recent Realmslore, I guess).

As a player, my two favorite Dungeon adventures of all time have been Eye of Myrkul and Sleep of Ages. They both have interesting twists, and contain so much juicy and fluffy Realmslore for DMs to heap on their players.

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2006 :  08:14:12  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eric,

I noticed that there is going to be a sourcebook called Faiths of Eber-Whatsit published this year. Has there been any official talk about Faiths of Faerūn?

I really would love to see you and Ed write such a book, concentrating on rituals, daily duties, new heresies, campaign ideas, etc. Sort of like a combination between Power of Faerun and Faiths and Pantheons

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2006 :  08:21:48  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ed's talked about the lack, from both TSR and WotC, of support for an FR tome dealing with deity rituals and the like -- given the *sensitive* content some of the more "intriguing" deities will cover -- like Loviatar's clergy for example.

It's something myself, Kuje and a number of other scribes have been clamoring for... for so very long now. Ed manages to share what he can though through his replies here at Candlekeep.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - The Sage on 26 May 2006 08:23:04
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2006 :  17:54:46  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Ed's talked about the lack, from both TSR and WotC, of support for an FR tome dealing with deity rituals and the like -- given the *sensitive* content some of the more "intriguing" deities will cover -- like Loviatar's clergy for example.

It's something myself, Kuje and a number of other scribes have been clamoring for... for so very long now. Ed manages to share what he can though through his replies here at Candlekeep.




Sigh,

Someday maybe we can get Ed to give us more. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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Trace_Coburn
Learned Scribe

New Zealand
137 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  13:59:50  Show Profile  Visit Trace_Coburn's Homepage Send Trace_Coburn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eric, I'm curious about a point in the (outstanding!) "Prestige of the Realms" .pdf file I downloaded from your site a couple of months ago. I'd address it to Thomas Costa directly, as 'tis one of his creations I need clarified, but sadly that worthy has no scroll of his own.

In the discussion of the kyorlin velve PrC there's a new (OGL) drow weapon called the shyrlass, described as being a variant rapier yet classed as a one-handed, martial, slashing weapon. Is a character specifically given proficiency with the rapier (for example, an elf or a bard) also considered proficient with the shyrlass, or are the techniques sufficiently divergent to constitute different proficiencies?

My own gut feeling is the two weapons have two different and distinct fighting styles - but I've certainly been wrong before....

D&D collection: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual I, Complete Arcane, Arms & Equipment Guide.

FR sourcebook collection: Dragons of Faerūn, Faiths & Pantheons, FRCS, Lords of Darkness, Monsters of Faerūn, Player's Guide to Faerūn, Power of Faerūn, Races of Faerūn, Silver Marches.

I just got back into this, okay? Give me time (or better yet money) - I'll catch up soon enough.
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe

Norway
476 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  17:16:13  Show Profile  Visit Snotlord's Homepage Send Snotlord a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Eric,

Who operates the hoist in the South Seacaves in Waterdeep?

Great book I'm always looking forward to your next book.

Edited by - Snotlord on 30 May 2006 17:17:28
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36123 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  17:32:41  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Trace_Coburn

Eric, I'm curious about a point in the (outstanding!) "Prestige of the Realms" .pdf file I downloaded from your site a couple of months ago. I'd address it to Thomas Costa directly, as 'tis one of his creations I need clarified, but sadly that worthy has no scroll of his own.

In the discussion of the kyorlin velve PrC there's a new (OGL) drow weapon called the shyrlass, described as being a variant rapier yet classed as a one-handed, martial, slashing weapon. Is a character specifically given proficiency with the rapier (for example, an elf or a bard) also considered proficient with the shyrlass, or are the techniques sufficiently divergent to constitute different proficiencies?

My own gut feeling is the two weapons have two different and distinct fighting styles - but I've certainly been wrong before....




I'd go with it being a different proficiency... I've seen a couple of fantasy novels where someone picked up a weapon other than their usual, and the different way of wielding it threw them off. And at least one of those novels did specifically have a rapier-wielder using a slashing weapon instead of his normal poking weapon.

And, for those who aren't familiar with the document Trace is referring to, here's the link:
Tom Costa's Prestige in the Realms

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 May 2006 17:33:22
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
871 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  20:30:06  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Trace,

Tom here. They are definitely two different weapons. I visualized the shyrlass as a cross between a katana and a rapier for whatever its worth, with the idea that drow would have as much dedication to crafting a weapon as any Japanese swordsmith and develop a sword that would benefit from their high dexterity and keen minds as well as their innate cruelty, thus the katana of rapiers if you will. I actually considered making it an exotic weapon and hemmed and hawed about doing so.

As a side note, some have suggested that of all the PrCs in the file, that the kyorlin velve is a little broken and that the Con damage ability should be scaled back. I'm not sure I agree given all of the requirements for entry, but take it for what it's worth.

*********************
Eric, I'm curious about a point in the (outstanding!) "Prestige of the Realms" .pdf file I downloaded from your site a couple of months ago. I'd address it to Thomas Costa directly, as 'tis one of his creations I need clarified, but sadly that worthy has no scroll of his own.

In the discussion of the kyorlin velve PrC there's a new (OGL) drow weapon called the shyrlass, described as being a variant rapier yet classed as a one-handed, martial, slashing weapon. Is a character specifically given proficiency with the rapier (for example, an elf or a bard) also considered proficient with the shyrlass, or are the techniques sufficiently divergent to constitute different proficiencies?

My own gut feeling is the two weapons have two different and distinct fighting styles - but I've certainly been wrong before....
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Trace_Coburn
Learned Scribe

New Zealand
137 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2006 :  16:16:57  Show Profile  Visit Trace_Coburn's Homepage Send Trace_Coburn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

Trace,

Tom here. They are definitely two different weapons. I visualized the shyrlass as a cross between a katana and a rapier for whatever its worth, with the idea that drow would have as much dedication to crafting a weapon as any Japanese swordsmith and develop a sword that would benefit from their high dexterity and keen minds as well as their innate cruelty, thus the katana of rapiers if you will. I actually considered making it an exotic weapon and hemmed and hawed about doing so.

As a side note, some have suggested that of all the PrCs in the file, that the kyorlin velve is a little broken and that the Con damage ability should be scaled back. I'm not sure I agree given all of the requirements for entry, but take it for what it's worth.
Much obliged to the pair of you - both for the clarification, and for the (bonus!) insight into the weapon's origin, which should add a nice little touch of... texture to its use.

[Mad Max]Y'all have a nice day! [/Mad Max]

D&D collection: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual I, Complete Arcane, Arms & Equipment Guide.

FR sourcebook collection: Dragons of Faerūn, Faiths & Pantheons, FRCS, Lords of Darkness, Monsters of Faerūn, Player's Guide to Faerūn, Power of Faerūn, Races of Faerūn, Silver Marches.

I just got back into this, okay? Give me time (or better yet money) - I'll catch up soon enough.
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2006 :  10:59:02  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eric,

I am certainly going to use Eldreth Veluuthra "double agents" such as the one who has infiltrated the ranks of the Night Masks .Would they see it important to have an agent within the ranks of the Zhentarim? What goals might such an agent have?

Also, would you see it possible that the EV might ally themselves with the orcs and half-orcs of The Broken Sword? BS seeks to restore "The Green Time" (as described in Polyhedron) and their aims and means seem to be very similar to those of the EV...

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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Dargoth
Great Reader

Australia
4607 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2006 :  05:13:47  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Umm Eric Ive found a nasty Fat mess of an inconcistency in Powers and Pantheons and Demihuman Deities. The Fat mess in question responds to the name of Orcus specficly a certain Wand that bears his name.

In Demihuman Deities under Kiransalee you wrote "and hid the legendary Wand of Orcus where none could ever find it---- Or so she thought"

In Powers and Pantheons under Tiamat you wrote "Just as the battered Tiamat readied to return to Unther in Triumph , she was attacked in her lair in the Outer Planes by a company powerful mortals at the bequest of her ancient Bahamut. In the battle, Tiamat's sole remaining avatar is destroyed. The mortals returned in triumph to Damara...."

The powerful mortals are of cause Gareth Dragonsbane and his party completing H4 Throne of Bloodstone. They kill Tiamat with the sole purpose of destroying the Wand of Orcus and they infact take a piece of the Wand of Orcus back to Damara and it becomes the seed for the Tree that keeps Demons out of that land...

Now both Gareth AND Kiaransalee cant of destroyed/hidden it the Wand of Orcus. When Gareth destroyed it by stuffing it into Tiamats heart it would taken Orcus 100 years to create a new one (Which means no Wand until at least 1459DR)

The new cosmology opens another can of worms with Orcus alledged return in the Planescape modules which doesnt work in the Realms as the Great wheel doesnt exist in Realms cosmology how can Orcus do his March of the Modrons when neither they nor Mechanus exist.

I notice in Demihuman deities you dont actually say Orcus is alive only that he might be.

In 3ed weve got Orcus mention in sources, a Cleric in Unapproachable East and a line in the monster table of Faithes and Pantheons

Something else I found in Bloodstone lands on pages 6-7 "With the defeat of the demon-lord the witch-king lost the source of his dark power. Castle Perilpus crumbled into ruins, the priests of the goat head religion lost their strength..."

Now that to me means Orcus divine spell granting ability was tied up in his Wand and when it was destroyed Orcus lost the power to grant spells and wont get it back until he can replace it, so no clerics of Orcus for at least 100 years


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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
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Posted - 05 Jun 2006 :  18:36:17  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not Eric, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, but he's often said that time for the gods is different than time for mortals, thus the inability to date the Dawn Cataclysm. The same could easily be true for the events surrounding Orcus.

That said, perhaps as Orcus ascended to godhood, so to did his wand, if you will. In that, as Orcus was only seemingly destroyed and reduced to becoming Tenebrous, so to was his wand only seemingly destroyed, with a vestigal shadow of its former self still to be found in the Multiverse.

As for the cosmological change, why not just change which planes some of the events occurred on? At a minimum, there still appear to be connections between the different cosmologies through Shadow (or is it the Ethereal), and there is no reason the modrons couldn't have marched that way. As for the very presence of modrons, there's no reason they shouldn't exist if all the other outsiders exist somewhere in the new Realms cosmology. Perhaps they are an aspect of Gond's cogworks. But that said, with new planes being created in the War of the Spider Queen for example or Cyric's seemingly taking one plane, Limbo or Pandemonium (it's unclear which) and turning it into the Shattered Throne, there's no reason we can't postulate that other core planes did not somewhere along the way exist in the Realms cosmology before being morphed into something new.
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Dargoth
Great Reader

Australia
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Posted - 05 Jun 2006 :  22:38:04  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

I'm not Eric, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, but he's often said that time for the gods is different than time for mortals, thus the inability to date the Dawn Cataclysm. The same could easily be true for the events surrounding Orcus.

That said, perhaps as Orcus ascended to godhood, so to did his wand, if you will. In that, as Orcus was only seemingly destroyed and reduced to becoming Tenebrous, so to was his wand only seemingly destroyed, with a vestigal shadow of its former self still to be found in the Multiverse.

As for the cosmological change, why not just change which planes some of the events occurred on? At a minimum, there still appear to be connections between the different cosmologies through Shadow (or is it the Ethereal), and there is no reason the modrons couldn't have marched that way. As for the very presence of modrons, there's no reason they shouldn't exist if all the other outsiders exist somewhere in the new Realms cosmology. Perhaps they are an aspect of Gond's cogworks. But that said, with new planes being created in the War of the Spider Queen for example or Cyric's seemingly taking one plane, Limbo or Pandemonium (it's unclear which) and turning it into the Shattered Throne, there's no reason we can't postulate that other core planes did not somewhere along the way exist in the Realms cosmology before being morphed into something new.



Richard Baker killed that idea a while ago in the ask Rich Baker thread at WOTC

Not only is the FRs Cosmology (As presented in the Players guide to Faerun) the cosmology of Faerun but its has ALWAYS been that way ie Mechanus, Limbo and Pandemonium and the other planes of the GReat Wheel have NEVER existed in the FR cosmology.

The biggest point against Orcus being brought back is the death of Greyhawk Lolth

In Greyhawk cannon Lolth was killed by a party of adventurers but this had absolutely no effect on FR Lolth. This is how Orcus should be viewed in the FR hes dead and the events of the Modron march ressurected him in Planescape but not the FR

As for Time being different in the way youve suggested I dont think that would work Time when stated in D&D with relationship to fiends has always meant "Prime Material" standard time not "Planar time" the best documented example of this is the death of the Balor Errtu in RA Salvatores novel the Crystal shard the Demon was banished from Faerun for 100 Faerunian years

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

Mel Brooks
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
871 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2006 :  23:48:05  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rich also said they wouldn't be adding more gods, and they have and continue to do so. We also keep seeing other author's sneak in references to the old cosmology in both novels and game products. I think we have enough ambiguity to argue just about anything, regardless of Rich's very firm stand some time back..
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Kuje
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USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2006 :  00:22:59  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

Rich also said they wouldn't be adding more gods, and they have and continue to do so. We also keep seeing other author's sneak in references to the old cosmology in both novels and game products. I think we have enough ambiguity to argue just about anything, regardless of Rich's very firm stand some time back..



This is what I've tried to explain to Dargoth in the Orcus thread, here on Keep, that spawned his question to Eric. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Octa
Learned Scribe

USA
138 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2006 :  18:44:43  Show Profile  Visit Octa's Homepage Send Octa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Plus you gotta kinda see that thread as the WOTCs attempt to back up some of the stuff they put in print, that latter turns out to cause problems, given the audience I think Rich pretty much has to assume: 'The deep voice of Authority!'
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