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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6501 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2022 :  03:18:26  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Just doing a bit of light reading and note that the gods (and even the dragons) whupped primordial butt over and over. Is there any mention of the primordials slaying a deity? Is it even possible?

— George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2289 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2022 :  03:49:05  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Many. But mostly in the 4e core materials. I can provide a list, if you want. I have that info compiled.

Anyways, we don't have much info about the Realms version of the Dawn War. We know, however, that the primordial Erek-Hus killed the dragon god Io (4e sources; SCAG, p. 112), that the gods (and even other primordials) feared Rorn of the Rages (FRCG, p. 242), as he killed many of them, and that the gods only were able to win when Ubtao betrayed the primordials (FRCG, p. 42). We also know that when Ao banished the primordials to Abeir, he imprisoned the primordial Entropy in the form of a sphere of annihilation and placed him on Toril as a warning to the gods that they faced annihilation if they did not behave. All gods do fear Entropy, meaning that a single primordial can threaten the entire Faerunian Pantheon ("Backdrop: Chessenta", DU178).

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 16 Jul 2022 03:57:40
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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36260 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2022 :  04:07:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

All gods do fear Entropy, meaning that a single primordial can threaten the entire Faerunian Pantheon ("Backdrop: Chessenta", DU178).



Although it seems to depend on the primordial, since another primordial was stuck being a heat source and apparently not of any concern to the gods.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6501 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2022 :  04:09:33  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Many. But mostly in the 4e core materials. I can provide a list, if you want. I have that info compiled.

Anyways, we don't have much info about the Realms version of the Dawn War. We know, however, that the primordial Erek-Hus killed the dragon god Io (4e sources; SCAG, p. 112), that the gods (and even other primordials) feared Rorn of the Rages (FRCG, p. 242), as he killed many of them, and that the gods only were able to win when Ubtao betrayed the primordials (FRCG, p. 42). We also know that when Ao banished the primordials to Abeir, he imprisoned the primordial Entropy in the form of a sphere of annihilation and placed him on Toril as a warning to the gods that they faced annihilation if they did not behave. All gods do fear Entropy, meaning that a single primordial can threaten the entire Faerunian Pantheon ("Backdrop: Chessenta", DU178).



Thanks you very much Zeromaru X. A very useful and succinct explanation. You are a true scholar and I give you thanks. Rorn seems to fit the bill nicely for my needs.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2289 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2022 :  04:40:37  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

All gods do fear Entropy, meaning that a single primordial can threaten the entire Faerunian Pantheon ("Backdrop: Chessenta", DU178).



Although it seems to depend on the primordial, since another primordial was stuck being a heat source and apparently not of any concern to the gods.



Yeah, that's right. Heroes of the Elemental Chaos (the 4e sourcebook that delved into the primordials) says that the power of the primordials range from individuals that are demigod-level (like Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud) to primordials who can surpass the combined might of a whole pantheon (like Timesus the Black Star, or Entropy).

As for Maegera, it seems he willingly decided to slumber beneath the place that would later become Gauntglrym. It seems he preferred that to be banished to Abeir. So, I guess he has some deal with the gods or something. It would not be the only one who did that.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6501 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2022 :  09:17:48  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Many. But mostly in the 4e core materials. I can provide a list, if you want. I have that info compiled.

Anyways, we don't have much info about the Realms version of the Dawn War. We know, however, that the primordial Erek-Hus killed the dragon god Io (4e sources; SCAG, p. 112), that the gods (and even other primordials) feared Rorn of the Rages (FRCG, p. 242), as he killed many of them, and that the gods only were able to win when Ubtao betrayed the primordials (FRCG, p. 42). We also know that when Ao banished the primordials to Abeir, he imprisoned the primordial Entropy in the form of a sphere of annihilation and placed him on Toril as a warning to the gods that they faced annihilation if they did not behave. All gods do fear Entropy, meaning that a single primordial can threaten the entire Faerunian Pantheon ("Backdrop: Chessenta", DU178).



Thanks you very much Zeromaru X. A very useful and succinct explanation. You are a true scholar and I give you thanks. Rorn seems to fit the bill nicely for my needs.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 16 Jul 2022 :  14:02:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

sniphe gods only were able to win when Ubtao betrayed the primordials (FRCG, p. 42).snip



I suddenly find myself wondering about this... I wonder if Ubtao's betrayal shifted the balance of power, or if it was that he brought valuable information that provided some advantage to the gods, or negated some advantage of the primordials.

I would also note that history shows that sometimes, a smaller, less-powerful force can effectively fight a large force by avoiding large battles and with clever tactics.

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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2289 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2022 :  16:57:14  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Something like that is actually mentioned in the 4e core sources. The gods won because they temporarily forgot their differences and worked together, facing the more powerful primordials one by one in bands of 3-5 gods (this is somehow used to explain what inspired the adventuring groups), and sealing or somehow diminishing those primordials they couldn't slay.

That's why they soiled their pants when the Batrachi released the primordials from their prisons during the Days of Thunder, as the sealed ones were the ones that surpassed their powers.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 16 Jul 2022 17:05:04
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
6092 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2022 :  18:27:50  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not entirely pertinent to George's question, but Dawn War occurred before mortals right?

If so, who were these gods the gods of. How did they derive their power to become gods and create and maintain a divine realm and their avatar and use their miraculous powers.


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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
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Posted - 16 Jul 2022 :  20:25:24  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Depends on the source, and on the setting. In the 4e core setting and in Exandria (Critical Role's setting), mortals already existed when the war broke out. It was the reason (or excuse, some would say) the gods used to start the war: to protect the mortals from the wanton destruction of the primordials. Interesting enough, some mortals did joined the primordials, some forced but others joined them willingly. According to these mortals, the gods stole creation from the primordials.

Now, take into account that in the Nentir Vale/Exandria's mythology, gods were actual gods (gods that were born from before Creation, and their powers didn't derive from worship and that nonsense). Not those fake, boring gods from Planescape.

In the Realms, however, the Dawn War did happened some time after Chauntea was born (I can even say that soon after Mystryl was born). So, the life forms that existed in the Realms were way different than those we know today. However, we also know that Netherese mythology might not be that accurate. The dragon mythology place's Io/Asgorath first dead here, so at the very least dragons existed... In some form.

Of Athas (the other world were we know the Dawn War took place, at least canonically), we don't know when the Dawn War took place. Perhaps during the Blue Age? Nobody knows. Halflings existed during that time, at the very least.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 16 Jul 2022 20:49:16
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6501 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2022 :  09:36:10  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The 4E books talk about the D&D pantheon with that edition and mention deities like Kord, Pelor, Ioun etc.

But specific to the Realms, when there is the batrachi “jail break”, there are certainly humans and they would certainly have worshipped gods. There likely would have been multiple regional human pantheons, which eventually coalesced into the Faerűn Pantheon we see today.

— George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 17 Jul 2022 :  10:18:03  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, but before that, the original conflict could not have been gods versus primordials because of the lack of mortals.

So it is more likely that it was primordials versus primordials, or powerful outer planar beings versus primordials, or a mix of both.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6501 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2022 :  12:00:06  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Yes, but before that, the original conflict could not have been gods versus primordials because of the lack of mortals.

So it is more likely that it was primordials versus primordials, or powerful outer planar beings versus primordials, or a mix of both.



I've postulated that elves and dwarves existed in Realmspace and that their gods fought in these wars. In addition, the deities of the Scalykind - whilst seemingly monstrous - wished to eradicate and/or diminish the hegemony of the primordials, and hence also participated. I note that I'm not talking about the draconic pantheon here.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 17 Jul 2022 :  12:58:10  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well thats a take i never expected. Especially given that we have a date for first arrival of elves (although not necessarily wild elves) and dwarves in Toril.

"In realmspace" implies that elves and dwarves were located on other planets. So either the elves and dwarves have a homeland of sorts in Realmspace (Faerie) that we know nothing about or that does not exist anymore (Faerie), or they arrived in spelljammers but did not continue onto Toril for whatever reason, and then the "gods" decided to have a fight with primordials, presumably to carve out a new world.

I wonder how the spellweavers fit into this.

I really do dislike the idea of gods fighting primordials, it just feeds into the bad design idea of gods turning up for tea and slaying mortals they dislike and otherwise directly controlling events on the material plane which is such a bad idea that even WoTC decided they should put a stop to it (5e sundering supposedly having gods become more remote and distant), even if they couldnt follow through with it probably due to lack of imagination.

Still, i'd be interested to see the end result one day.



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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 17 Jul 2022 :  16:35:20  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am not really familiar with this subject but based on this thread, could the fight have been between primordials with the winning side being "converted" into gods? When AO banished the losers, he could have said that to prevent this from happening again, the remaining primordials either have to become inactive or they will be changed into gods. That is why there are ones that are still here (but "slumbering") and the other powerful beings are gods. That could explain why Selune, Shar, Mystral, and Chauntea were here before mortals (that is my current understanding of Reamspace cosmology).

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
2289 Posts

Posted - 17 Jul 2022 :  18:43:24  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Yes, but before that, the original conflict could not have been gods versus primordials because of the lack of mortals.

So it is more likely that it was primordials versus primordials, or powerful outer planar beings versus primordials, or a mix of both.



If this helps, this is what the FRCG says on the matter:

quote:
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, p. 42

The most common account of Toril’s prehistory traces its roots back to ancient Netheril. This popular human myth recounts the creation of the universe by Lord Ao and the epic struggle between the gods of light and darkness that followed. Only recently have other, more ancient legends come to light, recounted by the sarrukh of Okoth and echoed by the dragonborn of Returned Abeir. By combining common threads from both accounts, backed by diligent factfinding missions, scholars and historians of today have gained a clearer understanding of the creation of the universe.



Which means that the narrative that we have of the Dawn War (at least, the Realms version of it) is an attempt of current day scholars and sages to reconcile and adapt the ancient Sarrukh records and dragonborn legends (and it seems both sources coincide in many points) with the Netherese myths. In a very blatant attempt to try to maintain the Netherese religion relevant in light of new discoveries, I may add, but that is my personal opinion.

Anyways, the beings the primordials fought against were originally known as "estelars". The sages identified them as the gods currently worshiped by the Faerunians, but perhaps they were different entities originally. The proto-deities maybe?

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Eldacar
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438 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2022 :  12:58:07  Show Profile Send Eldacar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

As for Maegera, it seems he willingly decided to slumber beneath the place that would later become Gauntglrym. It seems he preferred that to be banished to Abeir. So, I guess he has some deal with the gods or something. It would not be the only one who did that.


Magaera may simply be too weak to be of any particular concern to the pantheon - it is "small" enough to fit inside an Iron Flask in the Storm King's Thunder adventure, when a bunch of drow steal it as part of a deal with some fire giants. I cannot see an Iron Flask being able to contain something of genuine divine power, unless it was maybe the original one created by Tuerney on Oerth (and there's no indication of the flask in the adventure being that one). So as a primordial, Magaera would seem to be solidly on the lower end.

"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1170 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2022 :  14:37:58  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Since we are talking about primordials here, can a primordial create avatars?

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 18 Jul 2022 :  15:49:37  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes. At least, in the 4e core sources they can. You can fight against avatars of certain primordials in a pair of adventures.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 18 Jul 2022 :  20:04:44  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Primordials should never create avatars.

True gods create avatars
Archetypes create aspects
Primordials are just primordials

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TheIriaeban
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Posted - 18 Jul 2022 :  22:33:06  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the reason I asked is that George had mentioned before that the Shadevari in the books were probably avatars of some type since there were so weak compared to what else we know about them. That made sense to me and it seemed, given when they came to be, they could be primordials so they would need to be able to create avatars. If they aren't primordials, it would seem that they would have to be estellars. That would give them the ability to create avatars.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 19 Jul 2022 :  17:42:32  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gary was right... Sort of. What primordials have are "shards", that is small versions of them created from discarded bits from their bodies. They function like avatars, however.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 19 Jul 2022 17:43:08
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 19 Jul 2022 :  18:05:13  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Should they function like avatars though?

Gods have avatars because they are supposed to be confined to the outer planes, they are part of their divine realms and therefore a nebulous being of thought and belief.
Avatars serve the purpose of allowing these gods to enact change on the mortal realm (which is difficult if you dont have a body - gods should not have physical form), the gods can create multiple avatars and control them all simultaneously precisely because they have ascended beyond the mortal form. If a god is killed its realm (its body) drifts on the astral plane but can be reborn with enough power (belief). Avatars can be destroyed and created again and again as long as the god has enough power.

Archetypes are beings imbued with the power of an outer plane. They are a physical being, but are tied to the plane that powers them. In order to interact with the material plane they allow others to become aspects of themselves. These aspects are not the same as the archetype, they are independent beings but in order to become an aspect and imbue themselves with the power of the archetype they must have originally had many goals and traits in common with the archetype. If an archetype is destroyed (demogorgon for instance) then another being can become the archetype (the plane seems to choose for itself). If an aspect is destroyed another will choose to become an aspect eventually, sometimes multiple aspects can exist at once.

Primordials i'm not entirely sure about but they seem to be super beings of the material plane and possibly the inner planes (elemental energy perhaps). They have a single physical form, if it is killed they die but otherwise they live forever.
Never heard of these primordial shards before, but i would be tempted to make them be used to create a similar being but not the same, like primordial reproduction. Just may take on it, but if primordials were similar to gods or archetypes we would not need a separate category, because we have a separate category we might as well make them distinct.


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TheIriaeban
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Posted - 19 Jul 2022 :  18:36:21  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks, guys. That helped a lot. So I would guess that the Shadevari are indeed primordials. Probably the first in the FR crystal sphere. The Shadevari depicted in the books are shards: separate beings created by a portion of the original but are connected to the original so that the original sees and hears everything the shard experienced. Because the originals are trapped off of the prime, the only way they can interact with the prime is via these shards, they can create only one at a time, and they can only be created if called on by the owner of The Shadowstar.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 19 Jul 2022 :  20:12:06  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Should they function like avatars though?



At least, mechanically they worked as avatars in 4e. Lorewise, that's another thing. But the few shards one meet in the couple of times 4e adventures that have them are enemies only. So, there isn't lore about them.

If it helps, most primordials are either sealed off in dimensional prisons or chained in the Elemental Chaos or slumbering in magical prisons, and the shards can act out outside those boundaries.

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Primordials i'm not entirely sure about but they seem to be super beings of the material plane and possibly the inner planes (elemental energy perhaps)



Primordials are beings that originated from the Elemental Chaos, that is the origin/fulcrum of the Inner Planes (according to 5e). You can say that they are beings from Elemental Planes, as opposed to the gods, who are beings from the planes of the mind.

According to the current mythology used in 5e,the super beings from the Material Plane are the Primordial Dragons.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 19 Jul 2022 20:23:06
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 19 Jul 2022 :  20:19:09  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe the shards are just tiny minions (relatively speaking in power terms, not even on the divine power level spectrum)

I vaguely recall the soul shards of Telos, they tend to act more like golems or automatons.

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TheIriaeban
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Posted - 19 Jul 2022 :  21:40:25  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, so shadevari are not from the elemental planes. How about they are another type of being? Lets call them "espacions" and they similar to "estelars" in that they are proto-god-like in some ways but they can be permanently killed and they have shards instead of avatars like primordials.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 19 Jul 2022 :  22:18:10  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I dont think there is need for another category.

We have archetypes for super powerful beings from the outer planes, which covers the likes of Bahamut, tiamat, maybe even primus, and the rulers of celestial etc.

But shadevari dont seem to be aspects as they are not independent of whatever they are linked to.

So that leaves a primordial. Now we have material plane primordials that seem to be linked to the inner planes which makes sense because the elemental stuff of the inner planes is what makes up most of the material plane.
We also have other planar versions of primordials. There is a sidebar in one book that talks about netherese encounters with an impossible large far plane entity that morphs them all into something weird. It wasnt a god, it probably wasnt an archetype, so that leaves primordial.

We also have some outer planar creatures that may be primordial related - maram of the great spear came from another plane to Faerun but it is possible he could have originated from the material plane first. I'm not sure I like outer planar primordials but certainly far plane, shadow plane, etc all work as a place for primordial origins.

Thus shadevari could work as shards of a primordial creature that we havent encountered yet.

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PattPlays
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Posted - 20 Jul 2022 :  02:52:48  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Well thats a take i never expected. Especially given that we have a date for first arrival of elves (although not necessarily wild elves) and dwarves in Toril.

"In realmspace" implies that elves and dwarves were located on other planets. So either the elves and dwarves have a homeland of sorts in Realmspace (Faerie) that we know nothing about or that does not exist anymore (Faerie), or they arrived in spelljammers but did not continue onto Toril for whatever reason, and then the "gods" decided to have a fight with primordials, presumably to carve out a new world.

I wonder how the spellweavers fit into this.


on the "or they arrived in spelljammers", when the spellweavers blew everything up I'm sure it made some people look for new homes. Toril was iirc always supposed to be a very old world, though. And a big powerful glowing one. Ancient societies existing before the spellweaver affair may have already known about Toril and had gates already set up to it and other locations in realmspace.

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Baltas
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Posted - 20 Jul 2022 :  16:26:23  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
With Primordials becoming gods, there might be an example, Brian James did suggest Tiamat (and by extension, Bajamut) are Primordials who became gods, by stating Lotan (daughter of Tiamat) was a primordial:
https://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=1&TOPIC_ID=19136#448466

Io himself is complicated - Ed confirmed Io and Asgoroth/Asgorath are one and the same:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/the-symbol-of-the-all-dragon-world-dragon/

Which is interesting as Asgorath is described as a Primordial in most Realm sources.

Io though, even in Nerath were he is described as a God/Estelar, has a deep connection to the elemental planes, and indeed had pretension to authority over Primordials, which caused his conflict with (other?) Primordials. Io was also stated to among gods, fought as the only primordials himself alone, and defeating many of their number, with Erek-Hus victory being suggested as possibly only happening due to Zehir's betrayal, and very possibly fatigue and wounds of Io (from past battles) (or rather divine/primordial equivalent, damaging his essence and expending to much energy).
Draconomicon 2: Metallic Dragons, p.6:
quote:
Foremost among the gods in valor and physical power, Io fought and defeated many primordials in the Dawn War.


4E Monster Manual p.74:
quote:
Io's arrogance was his downfall. While the other gods banded together to combat the primordials, Io spurned the help of other gods.


This would though fit with how powerful Io was stated to be in the past lore. There is also a possibility Io was from the start a is a liminal being between a primordial and god.

Though as I noted in past, some Primordials are or were at least semi-draconic themselves, like the mentioned Rorn.

Changing the topic a bit, Rorn himself is a very interesting character, as he is a primordial who seemingly cared about his followers (even specifically being noted as compassionate, when not lost in fury), and despite his temper, was among the only, or only voice during the Dawn War advocating for peace between Gods and Primordials, but gods couldn’t accept his suggestion, due to fearing and hating him to much for the deaths he caused among the gods. In general, he was a bit underutilized in 4E, and I would like him to reappear or be mentioned in some form.

[EDIT]

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I wonder how the spellweavers fit into this.




This is quite interesting - 4E Nerath lore has Spellweavers claim their civilisation predates both gods and primordials, or even time when the Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos were not separate but one (or in a Great Wheel perspective - I would guess before Inner Planes, Outer Planes, Astral Plane and Ethereal Plane were separate entities.)

It is also stated Spellweavers fought against the earliest incursions from the Far Realms, as welll as tried to stop "the Seed of Chaos" (possibly the obyrith’s Shard of Pure Evil?) from entering the young cosmos - the Weavers ultimatelly failed, and the Seed's incursion caused the separation I mentioned, as well as shattering of the Spellweaver empire (4E Monster Manual 3).

Though it is stated in-universe most scholars think that at least the Spellweavers claim of predating gods and primordial is not true.

Edited by - Baltas on 20 Jul 2022 17:49:00
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 20 Jul 2022 :  17:44:33  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Primordials to gods make sense. All it takes is worship (and ascension), and let's face it, mortals are naturally going to worship the biggest most impressive thing they can find, which is a primordial.

In all previous editions Bahamut and Tiamat have been Archetypes. I see no reason to change that. It may be that they were primordials first and were then became the archetypal representatives of dragons. But they definitely shouldn't be considered the same as gods because even the FR lore, muddled as it is, matches more closely with archetypes than gods.

Bahamut and Tiamat have no meaningful worship for 30000 years and then suddenly reappear for mortals to worship. Archetypes require no worship and can allow aspects to arise anywhere anytime (providing someone or thing wants to become and aspect).

Tiamat and Bahamut existed multiple times on Toril at the same time. We have the Tiamat the 3 headed dragon queen of Unther and Tiamat the 5 headed dragon queen . For Bahamut we have both Bahamut and Marduk.

Then we have the multiple different names, Bahamut, Xymor, Marduk, each with seemingly different goals. Marduk was a defender of humans and Unther but Bahamut would never have condoned the slavery and slaughter that Unther practised ( even before Gilgeam was king).

Primordial to god and primordial too archetype makes sense and almost certainly happened many times in the distant past.

Archetype to god makes no sense because an archetype has all the power and advantages of a god (huge power, can create multiple aspects across the multiverse, can donate their power in the form of spells etc) but none of the weaknesses (do not die if no one worships them).

God to archetype is seemingly unlikely as a god represents its worshippers and is rarely going to be the perfect example of what a plane represents. However I would argue that Lolths silence represented her changing from a deity into an archetype because she had always been slightly unwelcome in her own plane (being attacked by spontaneously forming oozes etc) and is the only way I can see her increasing in power after losing so many worshippers (the abyssal plane she occupies imbued her with its power and she became a true demon lord.

Just my thoughts though

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