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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3664 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2022 :  05:53:11  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
All this stuff with social/religious change in Menzo without involvement of the other dark seldarine members that one would expect-as if drow religion outside Menzo until the recent revelation of the Aevendrow was basically a void with a few scattered & unorganized renegades from Menzoberranzan.


I think he's just throwing a bone, and won't involve any drow deity in any way relevant enough to warrant exploring what they stand for. I also personally don't think Menzo is undergoing any meaningful change, since they just established it as the only relevant Lolth settlement, so a religous/cultural shift would be the same as getting rid of Lolth as an even remotely threatening villain, and we all know that Lolth's WotC's universal fallback villain. Unless they intend to change Lolth into a villain that makes sense and can offer stuff to followers, and justify why a whole culture can stay with her. Which wouldn't be bad, but it's unlikely. At most I expect a few factions from Menzo to walk away (after overcoming the obvious opposition) and go live somewhere on the surface.

quote:
A reconciliation between the Salvatore side of drow lore and the rest(particularly in regards to the Dark Seldarine) has been a long time coming,


I personally don't see that happening, and there has been no sign of anyone caring about this matter. Or about any continuity matter at all.

Regardless, Eilistraee can very well continue doing her thing with the new drow: her focus will narrow down to the udadrow, but her aspect of reaching to the people who feel like they don't have a place/future (or have been denied it), and that have been forgotten by the world, would even be reinforced (with most drow now being good and well, reaching to a minority like the udadrow would carry a strong feeling of "no one gets left behind"). She will just have a better time easing refugees on the surface.

The problem isn't reconciling Eilistraee's role with the new drow (or Vhaeraun's for that matter), that's super easy, since you don't need to change anything. The problem is reconciling their history. Then again, the MToF already made a mess out of that, so it's not a recent problem, and it's probably not a problem at all in WotC's eyes.

Edited by - Irennan on 06 Jun 2022 06:00:49
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TKU
Learned Scribe

USA
128 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2022 :  15:32:28  Show Profile Send TKU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In regards to Lolth, there are some rumblings to the tune that WoTC might be changing how clerics work in FR-we might even be getting 'athiest clerics' like they already sorta did with paladins, or the idea that deities can't/won't revoke the powers of disobedient/wayward clergy. From the synopsis/analysis of RAS's last few books+ an interview or two I have read with him, it sounds to me that he doesn't really like how deities work in FR, that he's sorta spitballing ideas for what he wants to roll with, but ultimately something is going to change with Lolth. He might not kill her, but personally I wonder if something is going to happen in that department in the next few years. If/when he does eventually retire, I imagine he'll want some sort of legacy on the series, so I imagine he's going to save Lolth's ultimate fate for that, which could be another trilogy or so off.


As for Eilistraee, I think context and portrayal will make a lot of difference. What she is beyond 'benign elven nature goddess' would be omitting a big part of her role. It would also be significant if she's portrayed as the goddess of the Aevendrow and/or if she's a portrayed as a 'new' goddess to our outsider characters- Drizzt, Zak, Quenthel, Jarlaxle, etc that learn of this. Basically, does and have Eilistraeen's reached out to the other drow to proselytize to them and lead them from Lolth, or are they just the local flavor of nature goddess worshipped by the Aevendrow? Lolth never interacts or mentions any of the other DS members in any of the RAS books, so It would IMO be significant if the Lolth/Eilistraee relationship is referenced- 'Lolth's daughter that fights her influence over the drow' vs 'elven nature goddess'
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Irennan
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Posted - 06 Jun 2022 :  15:50:34  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TKU

In regards to Lolth, there are some rumblings to the tune that WoTC might be changing how clerics work in FR-we might even be getting 'athiest clerics' like they already sorta did with paladins, or the idea that deities can't/won't revoke the powers of disobedient/wayward clergy. From the synopsis/analysis of RAS's last few books+ an interview or two I have read with him, it sounds to me that he doesn't really like how deities work in FR, that he's sorta spitballing ideas for what he wants to roll with, but ultimately something is going to change with Lolth. He might not kill her, but personally I wonder if something is going to happen in that department in the next few years. If/when he does eventually retire, I imagine he'll want some sort of legacy on the series, so I imagine he's going to save Lolth's ultimate fate for that, which could be another trilogy or so off.


That's how clerics worked in 4e AFAIK (gods couldn't revoke powers), hardly a new thing. As for Lolth, Idk, remember that WotC are ultimately in charge. They're letting RAS roll with his retcons for now because they align with a response to the backlash they received about evil races, but I doubt they're going to erase Lolth drow as we know them anytime soon. They like the Underdark way too much for that to happen. And I mean, what would be the point of building all the new lore about Lolth, of downplaying her and introducing the new civilizations as the majority of drow, of all the talk about how the udadrow are oppressed by her that RAS did in the dragon mag, if then they were going to delete her? They could just have had a story about deleting her and be done with it.

"But the consequences of killing or changing Lolth while she is the main drow deity". Like WotC give a flying about exploring even the most surface and immediate consequences of anything. WotSQ, the whole Lolth society, the recent drow civilizations, or the chain of back to back apocalypses in 5e with no meaningful consequence explored speak volume about their storytelling. When they have a change in mind, they'll rain it on the setting without thinking how to make it make sense, or what the implications could be. Things magically rearrange to what they want to see.

quote:

As for Eilistraee, I think context and portrayal will make a lot of difference. What she is beyond 'benign elven nature goddess' would be omitting a big part of her role. It would also be significant if she's portrayed as the goddess of the Aevendrow and/or if she's a portrayed as a 'new' goddess to our outsider characters- Drizzt, Zak, Quenthel, Jarlaxle, etc that learn of this. Basically, does and have Eilistraeen's reached out to the other drow to proselytize to them and lead them from Lolth, or are they just the local flavor of nature goddess worshipped by the Aevendrow? Lolth never interacts or mentions any of the other DS members in any of the RAS books, so It would IMO be significant if the Lolth/Eilistraee relationship is referenced- 'Lolth's daughter that fights her influence over the drow' vs 'elven nature goddess'



Salvatore already had Drizzt passingly mention Eilistraee in a couple of his past books, so she definitely won't be portrayed as a new deity. And Salvatore *for sure* isn't going to have Eilistraee be the deity of the Aevendrow that he's so proud of.

Honestly, I think you're expecting way too much--the mention of Eilistraee is probably just RAS throwing a bone. I remember having a talk with him last year, and he said that there could very well be Eilistraee worshippers among the Aevendrow, just like worshippers of most other deities. What we see here aligns with what he said, I wouldn't read more than that into it.

And as for context, I don't see the problem. The drow as a whole are no longer a thing, so it doesn't make sense to talk about Eilistraee's role in regards to drow (at least no more than talking about her role in regards to the elves as a whole). She has different roles in different cultures, like it's to be expected, and that doesn't require changing anything, really.

Eilistraee already has elves and humans and other races who worship her for a variety of reasons unrelated to freeing the drow from Lolth. The Aevendrow would fall under that category, thoguh perhaps some might be more invested in the "freeing the drow" thingy. They would be like elves worshipping Eilistraee, and Eilistraee would probably be interested in rebuilding bridges between the udadrow and the other drow, like she wants to rebuild bridges between udadrow and elves. Eilistraee would still oppose Lolth because Lolth still oppresses the udadrow (I mean, that was always the reason why Eilistraee opposed Lolth), but since Lolth only oppresses Udadrow now, Eilistraee would be mainly reaching to the Udadrow. More niche? Maybe, but it makes perfect sense without changing anything about her character. It also reinforces the "no one gets left behind" feeling to her character, since she'd be going out of her way for a narrow minority--her efforts towards single individuals would be highlighted more, like Elaine did in her books, opposed to the current writeups that highlight more the "saving a race". While the worldbuilding behind the new drow isn't good quality and I'm not a fan of it because of that, I can dig this aspect at least.

Among the Aevendrow Eilistraee would probably be a deity of arts and nature (as well as bringing comfort to those who feel lost, though I doubt they're going to play this aspect of her for the Aevendrow). Among the Udadrow, she has her usual role of reaching to the people that were denied a place in the world and empowering them to look for what nurtures them, rather than staying in survival mode. It can be that simple, really.

Edited by - Irennan on 06 Jun 2022 16:10:44
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 06 Jun 2022 :  16:58:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't help but wonder if this is going to backfire on WotC.

While I agree that the drow needed to be revamped, the issue was more a thing of "this doesn't make sense" and the fact that for an intelligent race, their slavish adherence to Lolth was pretty unintelligent. The race didn't need to be rebuilt from the ground up, and they certainly didn't need to be retconned -- they just needed to shift the focus from Menzoberranzan and use some of the lore that already existed. If WotC had been willing to explore what they already had and emphasize that -- especially the followers of Vhaeraun and Eilistraee -- then it would have provided some much-needed nuance to the drow and put the Lolthites in a different perspective.

This new approach greatly downplays the "renegade good guy from a widely feared race" angle that was a large part of the appeal of Drizzt and his clones.*

Not for the first time, WotC is saying "how do we make this more appealing?" and then drawing exactly the wrong conclusion. (Also, WotC has a proven reluctance to back down from anything that they've decided to sink their claws into, especially if they've milked it for all its worth and then continued milking it)

*Admittedly, part of his appeal has long been the "slicing and dicing his way through anything" gig that caused me to dub him "Lord Ginsu" but that really didn't come into play until the Dark Elf trilogy came out. It certainly wasn't a factor, initially, when we first meet Drizzt getting taken down in a random encounter and needing to be rescued.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 06 Jun 2022 17:00:38
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Irennan
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Posted - 06 Jun 2022 :  17:31:36  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eh, the quality problems run way deeper than stuff that you can solve by just giving more spotlight to Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. It's an approach problem--when you plan a narrative with "these guys are evil so they do X", rather than "these guys believe X because it was their survival system, and it helped them thrive despite all", you're going to have problems like "ok, but why is everything these guys do so hilariously self-destructive, or outright nonsensical?"
Basically, you're failing to plan your narrative from within their point of view, which is the only way to go. You're not trying to understand them and what motivates them, and that what they do is the result of a long time of consolidating values that are succesful in their environment, and to satisfy "human" needs that every race that talks, reproduces, and rises children like humans has (but that the Lolth drow apparently don't have? Example: one of the reasons why humans have empathy and are so good at mirroring others and being mirrored feels good, is that human children are helpless af, and they need constant care to survive. Drow/elven children are the same, so a drow society where empathy is disregarded, like Lolth, would face gigantic problems).

But heck, the underdark civilizations themselves are quite underwhelming. They're handled in the same exact way as surface civilizations, but with underground scenery. Even their food production is the same as surface civilizations, to the point that you have friggin' cows, but underground. With that said, WotC isn't solving the problem at all, they're just adding more poorly thought out civilizations.

In short, the problem lies with how the worlduilding was approached, and it'd require much more than just retconning stuff here and there to be solved. It'd require a whole re-evaluation of the very groundwork of the drow as a concept. Now, would this be well received? I don't think so, people are familiar with the drow as they are, and a couple new civilizations are already way too much for a lot of people to accept. Regardless, if quality is your goal, then rewriting is the only solution. Of course, quality isn't the goal here, and hasn't been in a long time, but maybe it's the right thing in this case (in that if people like the drow, it wouldn't be right to just reinvent them altogether).

Edited by - Irennan on 06 Jun 2022 18:21:42
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sno4wy
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Posted - 06 Jun 2022 :  18:57:05  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TKU


So I'd be very interested in the context at play here. Is she portrayed as a 'new' goddess that the Menzo-born drow haven't encountered before, only worshipped by the Aevendrow in isolation or what. Does she still hold her previous focus on foiling Lolth and saving the drow from her mother's corruption? Is the familial connection between her and her mother mentioned? Or is she just some drow Diana expy, a sorta generically good nature goddess of the hunt?



I'm afraid that all that's said of her is what I quoted above. There's nothing else. It appears that, like in the previous time that he's actually name-dropped her, it's done so only to misrepresent her.
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sno4wy
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Posted - 06 Jun 2022 :  19:07:01  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't say too much about anything now, but I'll for sure do so after the book's release date to address the questions and speculations in this thread. For now, thanks to everyone for answering my lore questions and thanks in advance for answering questions I'll post in the future.
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RK
Acolyte

8 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2022 :  04:54:44  Show Profile Send RK a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mielikki’s sister-goddess was mentioned in Starlight Enclave. Galathae was a devotee.

I only know of one sister-goddess, “datha” to Mielikki.

Want to learn how to make $50,000 in the first month? Me too.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
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Posted - 07 Jun 2022 :  05:25:11  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RK

Mielikki’s sister-goddess was mentioned in Starlight Enclave. Galathae was a devotee.

I only know of one sister-goddess, “datha” to Mielikki.



Yeah, but while in the previous book her identity was up in the air, now RAS mentioned her by name (Eilistraee), which is something he has stated to be adverse to, since he has stated to dislike Eilistraee. Hence all the surprise and comments.

With that said, while Eilistraee and Mielikki are indeed close friends, they only share an affinity for nature. They're fundamentally different deities/faiths, despite RAS' statement in this current book.

Edited by - Irennan on 07 Jun 2022 05:27:32
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sno4wy
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Posted - 11 Jun 2022 :  19:33:02  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Alrighty, I've got another lore question:

Is it true that dragons can go decades without eating?
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 11 Jun 2022 :  20:47:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

Alrighty, I've got another lore question:

Is it true that dragons can go decades without eating?



Considering that they can sleep for centuries, they must be able to go without eating for a while.

I should think that a bigger question would be if such a long sleep required preparation (like a bear preparing to hibernate), or if a dragon could just decide "You know what, I'm bored. Think I'll take a nap for a few decades and see what the world looks like when I wake up."

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sno4wy
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Posted - 11 Jun 2022 :  23:00:42  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Considering that they can sleep for centuries, they must be able to go without eating for a while.

I should think that a bigger question would be if such a long sleep required preparation (like a bear preparing to hibernate), or if a dragon could just decide "You know what, I'm bored. Think I'll take a nap for a few decades and see what the world looks like when I wake up."



Good point. I guess I should've clarified that I meant can dragons go without eating for decades, without entering a state of hibernation? Basically go about their activities while awake and maturing/growing without eating for decades?
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Kentinal
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Posted - 11 Jun 2022 :  23:22:51  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well 3rd Edition rules appeared to indicate no one can starve to Death, just get weak until deciding or getting access to food.

It clearly should be possible for Dragons to go for a time not eating. Do not recall much discussion of eating habits or needs of Dragons.


As far as Dragons go they are magical beings and clearly have many more option then mere mortals.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 12 Jun 2022 :  01:47:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I could be mistaken, but I seem to recall something saying that dragons needed to eat to recharge their breath weapons (I could be thinking of dracoliches, though).

Given the way some dragons happily consume things most critters would consider inedible (including metals and gems), I'd think that a dragon's digestive system can handle pretty much anything -- and extract some form of nutritional value from it.

It's possible, thinks I, that dragons don't always need physical sustenance -- maybe for a dragon, a stimulating intellectual activity can be just as filling as a few rothé. Actual food may be more for a change of pace, or to affect others, than something actually needed.

This could also be a learned thing, or something that develops with age -- the ability to live from mental sustenance rather than physical. And some dragon types may be better at it than others.

If this is the case, a dragon involved in research, or avidly spying on mortals, or running a business empire, or any of that stuff, might go years between physical meals without even realizing it. And similarly, the dreams of a sleeping dragon may offer their own sustenance.

There is likely a magical angle to it, as well, and I should think that even the most intellectually stimulated dragon would still need to grab a bite every now and again, but not often, by human standards.

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sno4wy
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Posted - 12 Jun 2022 :  02:04:04  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Wooly, those are all good and interesting points.

I'm dropping off some more questions, but to anyone who visit this thread later, please feel free to contribute your thoughts to earlier questions as well. I just want to make sure that I get all of these asked.

1. Is there a druid spell from 2e, 3, and/or 4e that calms violent raging blizzards?

2. Counting epic level stuff, is there a wizard ability to summon multiple steeds?
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George Krashos
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Posted - 12 Jun 2022 :  02:24:05  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
3E - Control Weather (7th level Druid spell).

There have been many single mount spells through the editions of D&D (Mount, Spectral Steed, etc.) - no reason you can't adapt one of those to be a higher level spell that provides for a mount for every 2 caster levels, or something like that.

-- George Krashos


"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sno4wy
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Posted - 12 Jun 2022 :  02:35:40  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
There have been many single mount spells through the editions of D&D (Mount, Spectral Steed, etc.) - no reason you can't adapt one of those to be a higher level spell that provides for a mount for every 2 caster levels, or something like that.



Yeah, I getcha! I'm just wondering if such a thing existed in the official spells?
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Kentinal
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Posted - 12 Jun 2022 :  03:05:54  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
2. Counting epic level stuff, is there a wizard ability to summon multiple steeds?

There are Summon Monster or Summon Nature’s Ally spells, some of which could be mounts in a group. Providing steeds for short duration, however the are ways the spells can be enhanced (Metamagic). The higher level spells do allow for more then one to be called. Also as indicated researched spells can always improve on core spells.


"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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sno4wy
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Posted - 20 Jun 2022 :  06:37:33  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Alrighty, got another lore question. In Starlight Enclave, an Underdark phenomenon called the "breathless rooms" was introduced, which are:

"'...vast chambers of great heat and energy, though few are anywhere near to Menzoberranzan. We call them the breathless rooms, because if you remain in one, the heat of it will burn your lungs so that you will never again be able to speak, or perhaps even to draw breath. Huge, vast chambers full of crystals. Beautiful, like flowering gardens of stone, but deadly. Crystals the size of the tallest trees of the Crags. Even the svirfneblin, who value such pretty baubles above all else, cannot mine them, because the heat is too much for them. Their priests would have to work harder than the miners simply to protect them from the burning energy of the massive crystals.'

"'I have heard of drow priestesses whose faith was doubted being locked into such a chamber, where only their fealty to Lolth could grant them enough spells of protecction to survive the duration,' Zak added."

Has there been any precedence in canon for any of the above?
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George Krashos
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Posted - 20 Jun 2022 :  11:39:05  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

Alrighty, got another lore question. In Starlight Enclave, an Underdark phenomenon called the "breathless rooms" was introduced, which are:

"'...vast chambers of great heat and energy, though few are anywhere near to Menzoberranzan. We call them the breathless rooms, because if you remain in one, the heat of it will burn your lungs so that you will never again be able to speak, or perhaps even to draw breath. Huge, vast chambers full of crystals. Beautiful, like flowering gardens of stone, but deadly. Crystals the size of the tallest trees of the Crags. Even the svirfneblin, who value such pretty baubles above all else, cannot mine them, because the heat is too much for them. Their priests would have to work harder than the miners simply to protect them from the burning energy of the massive crystals.'

"'I have heard of drow priestesses whose faith was doubted being locked into such a chamber, where only their fealty to Lolth could grant them enough spells of protecction to survive the duration,' Zak added."

Has there been any precedence in canon for any of the above?



No.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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TheIriaeban
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Posted - 20 Jun 2022 :  15:50:12  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
There have been many single mount spells through the editions of D&D (Mount, Spectral Steed, etc.) - no reason you can't adapt one of those to be a higher level spell that provides for a mount for every 2 caster levels, or something like that.



Yeah, I getcha! I'm just wondering if such a thing existed in the official spells?



There is the level 5 Mass Mounts spell that summons one mount per level of the caster with a duration of 1 hour/level of the caster. It is on page 539 of the 2e Wizard's Spell Compendium Vol II.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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sno4wy
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Posted - 21 Jun 2022 :  00:39:08  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
No.

-- George Krashos



Thanks George, I loved the succinct and to the point response! It made me chuckle IRL.

It's pretty [insert Jackie Chan wtf meme here] to me that he invents this "natural phenomenon", which is actually the entire reason that Callidae exists in the first place. Unbeknownst to its residents, Callidae isn't overwhelmed by the brutal arctic temperatures because the heat of the "breathless rooms" beneath keep the city viable. The city is threatened because its enemies are attacking and destroying those rooms, which have already caused a section of the city to be reclaimed by the arctic.

The whole thing is just so cringe to be honest, with how they're suddenly pulling this huge utopian city of 40k people that no one's ever heard of before (except the illithids apparently but they didn't care about them), and it's viable because of this natural phenomenon that's supposedly existed all this time also but that we're only hearing about now. Go figure, I guess. (P.S. All of this except the illithid part was revealed in Starlight Enclave).

Edited by - sno4wy on 21 Jun 2022 00:39:55
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Irennan
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Posted - 21 Jun 2022 :  00:49:54  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The most puzzling part is that this is a phenomenon with massive effects, but over the course of a 40 books series, a lot of which involved the Underdark, nobody noticed it. Exactly like the civilizations coming out of nowhere, and leaving 0 traces/effect on their environment despite being big and (magically) hyper-advanced. And hyper-advanced civiliaztions always leave huge marks in their environment, due to all the energy the "harvest" from it, so magically hyper-advanced civlixations should leave massive traces in the Weave, which would have given them away to any magic competent individual. Heck, even with no sign in the Weave, the physical effects of using magic to do stuff should eventually show up in the environment, especially in FR, where (as Ed explained) the Weave seems to be a way to make the energy of natural phenomena easily usable by people (so extensive use of magic should leave substantial traces in the environment).

Edited by - Irennan on 21 Jun 2022 00:53:43
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 21 Jun 2022 :  03:23:59  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I no longer have my copy, but I wonder if something like that was in the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide, back in the day.

Honestly, the phenomenon seems pretty reasonable, to me, assuming you've got the requisite source of geothermal energy nearby. Obviously I'm no geologist, but I do know there are some warm spots below our feet.

While the reference cited here does seem kind of out of left field -- especially since we've never had mention of it before -- the explanation that there are none near Menzoberranzan does give some explanation for that. While we've had some sources on the Underdark, they generally fall into two categories: 1) MOAR Menzoberranzan! or 2) Quick overview of rest of the freaking continent. Given page count limitations and TSR/WotC ignoring anything that isn't monsters/classes/backgrounds/adventures with token references to the Realms, something like these "breathless rooms" could easily go unmentioned. It's entirely possible that they were first described for a 2E product, got cut, and never saw print until now.

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Irennan
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Posted - 21 Jun 2022 :  03:44:34  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure Toril's Underdark fits the bill, or works anything like Earth's underground. Honestly, I've always been puzzled by it. Does Toril even have a core? How does it stay warm?
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sno4wy
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Posted - 21 Jun 2022 :  03:49:50  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

The most puzzling part is that this is a phenomenon with massive effects, but over the course of a 40 books series, a lot of which involved the Underdark, nobody noticed it. Exactly like the civilizations coming out of nowhere, and leaving 0 traces/effect on their environment despite being big and (magically) hyper-advanced. And hyper-advanced civiliaztions always leave huge marks in their environment, due to all the energy the "harvest" from it, so magically hyper-advanced civlixations should leave massive traces in the Weave, which would have given them away to any magic competent individual. Heck, even with no sign in the Weave, the physical effects of using magic to do stuff should eventually show up in the environment, especially in FR, where (as Ed explained) the Weave seems to be a way to make the energy of natural phenomena easily usable by people (so extensive use of magic should leave substantial traces in the environment).



This hasn't been addressed, but the thing I'm afraid of is that RAS has been hinting at the Weave not applying to the aevendrow, because they're too far up north or whatever. They have an entire period of time in which magic is dead, it doesn't work at all. It also seems like their magic is tied heavily to their aurora borealis. God I really hope that this isn't what's going on, but knowing RAS...
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Irennan
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Posted - 21 Jun 2022 :  04:20:07  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Even if RAS goes with something like that, whatever their magic source is, it's bound to left signs on the environment. There should still be tons of visible results for a civilization. Heck, even caveman left modification in the environment, even animals do it (for example, that's how we can be 100% that megalodons are extinct, the effect that such a predator would inevitably have on the ecosystem aren't there). Now think a civilization able to have infinite energy and resources and able to shape their environs thanks to magic.

Moreover, you'd guess an alternative magic source able to power a whole utopian civilization would have been detected at some point during over 10k years. Especially if it's tied to a phenomenon that should also be visible in Icewind Dale and other inhabited areas near the aevendrow.

Edited by - Irennan on 21 Jun 2022 04:25:58
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TheIriaeban
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Posted - 21 Jun 2022 :  04:53:07  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I no longer have my copy, but I wonder if something like that was in the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide, back in the day.



I just looked in my copy of the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide and it doesn't mention anything like this.

However, the description did ring a bell. I found this in Demihuman Deities concerning where Garl found the Gnomes:

"Gnome folklore holds that the first gnomes were born from gems discovered by Garl and Arumdina in a fashion similar to that ascribed to the gods. The Watchful Protector discovered a sealed cavern whose walls and ceiling were studded with countless gems embedded in veins of valuable ore. When Garl polished the gems and breathed on them, the jewels opened like a blossom to release the first gnomes."

Perhaps that "sealed cavern whose walls and ceiling were studded with countless gems" was a cooled off breathless room? Is there any indication that these breathless rooms are older than 25,000 years?

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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sno4wy
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Posted - 21 Jun 2022 :  05:18:56  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Is there any indication that these breathless rooms are older than 25,000 years?



Nope, the only thing we know is that they're at least as old as Callidae, and here it becomes unclear.

RAS claims that Menzo was founded 4 millennia ago according to Lolthite history, but "what actually happened" was that it was founded 2 millennia ago. At the same time, so was Callidae founded.

The thing is, in Relentless/Starlight Enclave, more lore retcons suggested that the descent of the drow immediately preceded the founding of Menzo. Wasn't the descent something like 11500 ago as of the current timeline?
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TKU
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Posted - 21 Jun 2022 :  06:24:01  Show Profile Send TKU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes. Something like that. The Descent happened in the Crown wars which were somewhere around that ballpark ago. Menzo used to be a relatively 'new' Drow city- basically a 'third generation' city. Menzo was founded by Golothaer which was itself founded by the original drow capital, Telantiwar. Telantiwar collapsed like 10k years ago, which means cities like T'Lindhet would be significantly older than Menzo. (T'Lindhet was an outpost of Telantiwar, and Telantiwar was destroyed some ten millennia ago.)

Had to does check some dates and spelling of city names, but yeah, it does contradict basically everything regarding drow history prior to the new books.

From what I have read/heard it looks like the aim of the new books is to put Menzo as the first drow city/center of Lolth's worship from the beginning. Other drow/udadrow cities (if they still exist, which afaik is still up in the air since they haven't been mentioned since this development afaik? good question IMO) would logically then be descended from Menzo....basically a reversal of the prior canon where it was a newer city.

One thing I noticed is that the figure of 2k years means that Menzo is also around as old as Matron Yvonnel, meaning that she basically has *always* ruled Menzo. IDK if that means there were no prior First Matrons (Baenre or otherwise) But that does seem in line with the developing trend that personally I am not a fan of-that house Baenre is the only house that matters, that Menzoberranzan is the only drow house that matters, that Yvonnel is *the* big leader of the drow and always has been. Makes the setting feel too small, makes Lolth and the drow far too focused on house Baenre IMO. I wonder if in this new vision for the drow with its founding so heavily retconned if Menzoberra is still canon as the founder of the city or if that's Yvonnel too. Is (was) Ched Nassad still a thing, or was Menzoberranzan always the sole (uda)drow settlement in Toril now?
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