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Erikor
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Norway
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Posted - 13 May 2022 :  20:50:37  Show Profile Send Erikor a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
RAS's new book, Glacier's Edge, is released in august this year I think.
Starlight Enclave wasn't particularly well recieved among fans on this site, including myself.
Do you guys think it's gonna be any good?

Edited by - Erikor on 13 May 2022 20:57:12

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 13 May 2022 :  22:33:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We're far from being the largest FR fan community around, and we can be a bit more particular on certain topics than some of the other Forgotten Realms groups.

Regardless of whether or not we like that particular book, he's got a rather large fanbase, and they are a dedicated bunch.

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sno4wy
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Posted - 13 May 2022 :  23:38:29  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm reading the ARC for Glacier's Edge and I've had to put it down. I haven't returned to it. I'm about 75% of the way through and it's... yeah. I mean his fanbois will love it as usual.

Edited by - sno4wy on 13 May 2022 23:38:59
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sno4wy
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Posted - 14 May 2022 :  02:21:12  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't talk about it in detail at this point, but I do plan on writing a very detailed analysis/review after the book officially releases. In the meantime, I can answer some general questions.

I'd also like to do some research about lore things I'm unsure about here. To start off with: Is it ever established in any of the sourcebooks/canon materials that in the earliest Lolthite societies (or the societies that were on the verge of becoming Lolthite), that most of the warriors were female drow on account of them being bigger than male drow?
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Kentinal
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4657 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2022 :  02:53:06  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

I can't talk about it in detail at this point, but I do plan on writing a very detailed analysis/review after the book officially releases. In the meantime, I can answer some general questions.

I'd also like to do some research about lore things I'm unsure about here. To start off with: Is it ever established in any of the sourcebooks/canon materials that in the earliest Lolthite societies (or the societies that were on the verge of becoming Lolthite), that most of the warriors were female drow on account of them being bigger than male drow?



I do seem recall that Females were larger in FOR2 than males, however the females were mostly Clerics.

From https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/16829/FOR2-The-Drow-of-the-Underdark-2e I found this that might be useful for research
quote:
FOR2: The Drow of the Underdark (1991) was the second release in the new prestige Forgotten Realms series, and the first by setting creator Ed Greenwood. It was published in July 1991.

A Shared History. Drow follows on from the history of FOR1: Draconomicon (1990), as it was the second book in a series meant to expand upon "elements" of the Forgotten Realms that went beyond the geography of the "FR" series (1987-1993). It also has the same gloss-on-matte cover treatment. Like Draconomicon, this is a book about a singular monstrous culture - but it actually spends a lot more time on that culture than its predecessor because it doesn't include variant monster types nor adventures (as Draconomicon did).

About the Drow. By 1991, the drow already had a rich history, much of which Greenwood explicitly referenced when writing this new book about drow in the Forgotten Realms. The drow were first mentioned in the Monster Manual (1977), but they didn't actually appear until the famous GDQ adventure series (1978, 1980) by Gary Gygax & David C. Sutherland III. D3: "Vault of the Drow" (1978) was particularly important because it depicted a society of warring, Lolth-worshiping drow that later became the archetype for the species.

Other notable sources referenced by Greenwood are as follows: "Children Of the Spider Goddess," by Eric Oppen, in Dragon #129 (January 1988), the first "point of view" article for the drow; "Entering the Drider's Web," by C.E. Misso, in the same issue, which gives a bit more detail on the spider-drow; and of course R.A. Salvatore's Drizzt Do'Urden stories, beginning with The Crystal Shard (1988), which made drow important to the Realms.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 14 May 2022 :  04:00:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From page 24 of The Vault of the Drow (a pdf, not the original print copy):

quote:
Male drow are of thin build, about 5' tall, have dead black skin and dead white hair, and the irises of their eyes are orange to orange-yellow. Females are slender and shapely, about 5 1/2' tall, and have glossy black skin and shining silvery hair. The eyes of female Drow are amber, though a few are said to possess irises of lambent violet.

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Kentinal
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Posted - 14 May 2022 :  04:52:05  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wooly thank you for finding that.

sno4wy

To your question, RAS did stay with 2nd Edition even when source books moved to 3rd.

The one thing to remember was 1st and 2nd had multi-class for all non-human so fighter/clerics were clearly possible and in some ways desired as opposed to single class.

There though are bugs I forgot about. From Demihuman Deities

quote:
The clergy of Lolth includes dark elves (94%) and
chitines (6%). Of the dark elves, 96% are female; there are male
priests of Lolth (4%), but the Spider Queen very rarely allows them to
rise above 7th level of experience. Lolth's clergy includes spe-cialty
priests (40%), clerics (30%), fighter/clerics (20%), and crusaders
(10%), although the relative fractions of each vary from city to city.


When the Edition changed either the few male clerics were killed or was effected by gender change, that I never saw addressed.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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TKU
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Posted - 14 May 2022 :  15:11:00  Show Profile Send TKU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Always found that an interesting blurb. The clergy of Lolth having a more gender balanced ratio of male to female clergy than the other members of the Dark Seldarine, including Vhaeraun and Eilistraee.
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sno4wy
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Posted - 17 May 2022 :  05:33:22  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Female drow are still larger than male drow on average in 5e. I've only ever read about them being primarily priestesses, and it seems like based on the answers so far that the most that female Lolthite drow would be fighter-wise were multiclass cleric and fighter.

Is it the case that there's no precedent in existing lore for Lolthite societies (specifically Menzo) in which pure fighter classes or fighter/other multi-classes without any cleric thrown in were primarily composed of female drow?

Edited by - sno4wy on 17 May 2022 05:34:19
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George Krashos
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Posted - 17 May 2022 :  10:24:48  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't recall him ever featuring a female drow fighter in any of his books.

But I haven't been paying much attention in the last several years.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 17 May 2022 10:25:51
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Kentinal
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Posted - 17 May 2022 :  12:29:04  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
https://www.dnd-gate.de/gate3/page/index.php?id=420 offers a list of Drow NPCs, going back to AD&D and while most fd listed are Clr,P or other clergy most of Lolth, some mult class , there are listed a few fd fighters as single class of mult- not P/Clr.

Out of 209 I pulled these 36 from the list.


Maigneth (fd, *Ftr?) one Captain of the House Guard
Liriel Baenre (fd, F8/M9 - F8/M10 - *Ftr1/Clr3/M11) renegade, wandering surface
Xandra Shobalar (fd, Wiz?) 3rd daughter of Hinkutes'nat, Mistress of Magic, instructor of Liriel Baenre
Haleera Shundyl (fd, M) known to have used the "wingless wonder" - form, FU
Alyss (fd, F) potter & sculptor
Calauthe Mez'talyth (fd, F) poison, information dealer
Drythaera Bryn'Tereth (fd, T) information & Underdark maps
Infinyl Mestpar (fd, F) mercenary, gemtrader
"Nal" Xalyth (fd, F) trader, 1371 DR
Phaeril (fd, F) weapon master, weapon trader, scout
Rhauvais del'Ygana (fd, F) weapon trader
Sheeress (fd, M) moneylender
Prellyn Teh'kinrellz (fd, Rgr )
Norendia Melarn (fd, ?) sister of Halisstra, killed by the latter
Jawil Melarn (fd, ?) sister of Halisstra, second oldest daughter after Halisstra, killed by the latter
Relirva Indagley'Belash (fd, F) scout of House Teh'kinrellz, 1371 DR
Belarbreeza Jaelre (fd, Wiz) Co-Leader of House Jaelre
Ginafae (fd, Rgr)
Drisinil (fd, Wiz)
Krystarn "Fellhammer" (fd, Wiz?) explorer in Cormanthyr's ruins (Lost Library of Cormathyr)
Tleobar T'Enorgh (fd, F/M) wife of Raaghar
Ilmra Tanor'Thal (fd) cousin of Kesra (see Skullport)
Olorae Tanor'Thal (fd) cousin of Kesra (see Skullport for more info)
Loghala Thenduk (fd wererat, Rog)
Harammamyl H'tithet (fd, *Rog/Ftr) leader of the drow traders
Nathglaryst (fd, Wiz more likely Sor) Queen of an unnamed kingdom
Susprina Arkhenneld (fd, Eilistraee) former apprentice of Elminster
Cierre (fd, Rgr of Auril)
Shurdriira Helviiryn (fd, Tra - *Tra) Master of Alteration
Felyndiira T'orgh (fd, Ill - *Ill) Master of Illusion and Phantasm
Lucia Calefar (fd, Rog/Nightmask Deathbringer) possibly of Westgate
Eraun (fd, F)
Milfal (fd,F)
Xi'an Vrasl (fd, *Ftr/Sor/Arachnomancer) sister of Karu'shon
Gudren Myrinn (fd keening spirit,) divine champion of the Revenancer


The list last update according to site: Last Update: 12. 2006

Edited two typing errors

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon

Edited by - Kentinal on 17 May 2022 12:31:22
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TKU
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Posted - 17 May 2022 :  14:08:29  Show Profile Send TKU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
House Baenre had its elite female guard. But individually they were never really important. Outside of the novels, I can only think of the example of 'Dessa' from 'City of the Spider Queen' as an example of a drow woman who is described as a physically imposing melee fighter(cleric/barbarian). Doesn't really seem to come up in the novels from what I recall. Male drow are overwhelmingly much more likely to be noted for having exceptional physiques and combat skill.

One would have thought we'd have seen at least one female house weapon's master by now, or at least some priestesses that were competent in hand to hand combat. It does seem like a rather glaring omission. If drow women are on average larger than the men, where are the female Uthegentels and Rylds hiding all these years?
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 17 May 2022 :  15:55:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TKU

House Baenre had its elite female guard. But individually they were never really important. Outside of the novels, I can only think of the example of 'Dessa' from 'City of the Spider Queen' as an example of a drow woman who is described as a physically imposing melee fighter(cleric/barbarian). Doesn't really seem to come up in the novels from what I recall. Male drow are overwhelmingly much more likely to be noted for having exceptional physiques and combat skill.

One would have thought we'd have seen at least one female house weapon's master by now, or at least some priestesses that were competent in hand to hand combat. It does seem like a rather glaring omission. If drow women are on average larger than the men, where are the female Uthegentels and Rylds hiding all these years?



It's because the females were all clergy, and they left the fighting to males.

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TKU
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Posted - 17 May 2022 :  18:33:10  Show Profile Send TKU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not all though, surely. There were plenty of female drow soldiers (as well as commoners, wizards etc) in the novels and other books. The aforementioned Baenre elite guard as an example. Just not anyone I can think of who's distinguished by being a capable fighter on par with the many examples of male warriors, or who is described as particularly physically strong, despite the greater average size of female drow. It seems odd.
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Kentinal
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Posted - 17 May 2022 :  20:08:00  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had the impression that all elves tended to have Priestesses rather than Priests. You might be hard pressed to find many eleven Priests of any version, Gold, Silver, Green and even Sea Elves. Oh there might be some of course, though I do not recall seeing any right now.

As for the Lolth elves not only would mostly female Priestesses appears common, those with Wisdom clearly choose that path as safest way to power and survival.

As for single class Fenale Drow Fighters I did find a few in the above posted list. Drow fighters however are not that important in Lolthian society, their roles are guarding the females, the city or go on raids, the Fighters most important job is to protect the female Priestesses of their House/organization. Rarely would they be the star, at best a supporting role. As such would not feature in many novels or even source books.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Kentinal
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Posted - 17 May 2022 :  20:19:52  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

Is it the case that there's no precedent in existing lore for Lolthite societies (specifically Menzo) in which pure fighter classes or fighter/other multi-classes without any cleric thrown in were primarily composed of female drow?



I can not find any example of any Drow Society that did include mostly female fighters, it might be possible that the commoners females that out number the leaders might be fighters. After all there are the slaves to control and many ways a fighter is better suited to put down revolts. Even there I would not expect to find more female fighters then male fighters.
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Delnyn
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Posted - 17 May 2022 :  20:26:18  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erikor

RAS's new book, Glacier's Edge, is released in august this year I think.
Starlight Enclave wasn't particularly well recieved among fans on this site, including myself.
Do you guys think it's gonna be any good?



Good? Not to me.
Will it sell well? Most likely yes.
As long as there is a community of readers who enjoy the latest rehashes of The Purple-Eyed Cuisinart's adventures, we have not heard the last of Drizzt novels. I'm happy for those fans. Drizzt lost my interest when he one-shotted Demogorgon.
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redking
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Posted - 18 May 2022 :  05:41:11  Show Profile Send redking a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Drizzt lost my interest when he one-shotted Demogorgon.


That was awful. All I can do to fix it in my own mind is to make excuses and sat "well, that wasn't Demogorgon in his true form, just a minor aspect". Definitely not RAS' intention however.
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sno4wy
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Posted - 18 May 2022 :  09:30:48  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks to everyone who helped answer my question about female drow fighters.

My next lore question is about copper dragons:

1) At what age are they considered ancient?
2) How big specifically is "gargantuan" when it comes to them? D&D's guidelines for "gargantuan" includes quite the range.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 18 May 2022 :  11:11:21  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

I had the impression that all elves tended to have Priestesses rather than Priests. You might be hard pressed to find many eleven Priests of any version, Gold, Silver, Green and even Sea Elves. Oh there might be some of course, though I do not recall seeing any right now.



I don't recall his name, but in Elfsong, there was an elven priest that Danilo spoke with a couple of times.

And we had Vartan Hai Sylvar, from the old DC/TSR comics.

Plus the guy in the Last Mythal trilogy, the one that brought Fflar back.

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George Krashos
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Posted - 19 May 2022 :  00:14:19  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

Thanks to everyone who helped answer my question about female drow fighters.

My next lore question is about copper dragons:

1) At what age are they considered ancient?
2) How big specifically is "gargantuan" when it comes to them? D&D's guidelines for "gargantuan" includes quite the range.



Your answer is game edition dependant. What version of the D&D game are you playing?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sno4wy
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Posted - 19 May 2022 :  02:27:33  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Your answer is game edition dependant. What version of the D&D game are you playing?

-- George Krashos



Those questions pertain to Glacier's Edge, so I guess 5e? Although who knows what RAS is thinking. Based on what Kentinal said earlier, 2e? Heck if I know. Give it to me for 5e I guess.
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Erikor
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Posted - 22 May 2022 :  02:10:55  Show Profile Send Erikor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

I can't talk about it in detail at this point, but I do plan on writing a very detailed analysis/review after the book officially releases. In the meantime, I can answer some general questions.


Where can I read your review when it's done?
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sno4wy
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Posted - 22 May 2022 :  09:49:16  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erikor

quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

I can't talk about it in detail at this point, but I do plan on writing a very detailed analysis/review after the book officially releases. In the meantime, I can answer some general questions.


Where can I read your review when it's done?



I'll link it in this thread.
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 22 May 2022 :  15:03:45  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-A few from the 2e NPC Collection:
Aswansea (Under Ilefarn)
Argus Hawkmoon of Sehanine (Powers & Pantheons)
Wistari Stargazer (Lands of Intrigue)
Silvanestri (Ruins of Adventure)
Jromin (Shining South)
Treespeaker Rhothomir (Lands of Intrigue)
Vatarn Wahrim (Empires of the Shining Sea)

-The ratio seemed to be about 70/30 or 60/40 female-to-male. Obviously, we have had like 20 years of various products since then, so that might be way off at this point with so many new novels, adventures, and sourcebooks.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
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Tanthalas
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Posted - 26 May 2022 :  21:21:45  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TKU

If drow women are on average larger than the men, where are the female Uthegentels and Rylds hiding all these years?


Well, in the previous Drizzt trilogy I remember it being mentioned that Drizzt's oldest sister was the daughter of Uthegental, but she was still a Cleric.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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sno4wy
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Posted - 05 Jun 2022 :  22:39:03  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Alrighty, so I've finished the ARC now, and am processing through my notes. I'm sure I'll have other lore questions, but here's the most pressing one:

It was very surprising that RAS mentions Eilistraee by name in Glacier's Edge, even confirms the suspicions of some that the paladin of a previously unnamed deity is a follower of Eilistraee. However, to me at least, this character doesn't seem to actually understand what her patron goddess represents, not to mention that all of that wouldn't exist in how RAS retconned drow history. That being said, ignoring the last part, this was said of Eilistraee, with a comparison to Mielikki: "Their faiths were not so different, both centered in deities that exalted the natural world and the harmony of the cycle of life and death."

That honestly had me doing the Jackie Chan wtf meme. Sure, part of Eilistraee's portfolio is the hunt, but what part of it concerns the harmony of the cycle of life and death?
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 05 Jun 2022 :  22:51:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That also contradicts his "Mielikki is genocidal towards goblins!" thing.

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Kentinal
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Posted - 06 Jun 2022 :  00:31:32  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eilistraee does also call for return to the surface (nature) and glades and forests are locations for temples. A return to nature from the underdark is a main part of her dogma, that also calls for peace (harmony) on the surface. Rangers are some of her followers. There are links to cycle of life and death that she calls for. Not as much of as some deities, however more then other deities.


"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Irennan
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Posted - 06 Jun 2022 :  04:29:55  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

Eilistraee does also call for return to the surface (nature) and glades and forests are locations for temples. A return to nature from the underdark is a main part of her dogma, that also calls for peace (harmony) on the surface. Rangers are some of her followers. There are links to cycle of life and death that she calls for. Not as much of as some deities, however more then other deities.




Sure, Eilistraee uses nature to teach her people how to thrive on the surface, but she has nothing to do with some druidic life/death balance thing. As Ed said, she owes mainly to the bard and mother archetypes.

But whatever, it's already a huge surprise that RAS mentioned her, and I'm not seeing him giving her or her faith/followers any relevant role in the story. That means people who are curious about her will just go read the lore and understand what she actually does.

I'm curious whether RAS introduces her as Lolth's daughter, though. That's a cool aspect of the Dark Seldarine that WotC seems to have ignored in 5e.

Edited by - Irennan on 06 Jun 2022 04:41:32
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TKU
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Posted - 06 Jun 2022 :  05:18:52  Show Profile Send TKU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is interesting. I am curious about the context though of course. The amount of times other members of the Dark Seldarine have been mentioned in RAS' work is pretty small indeed. As they existed outside the Salvatore books....doesn't really mesh well with how he & wotc's vision for the drow-the whole thing about the other drow cities seemingly being retconned, for example. All this stuff with social/religious change in Menzo without involvement of the other dark seldarine members that one would expect-as if drow religion outside Menzo until the recent revelation of the Aevendrow was basically a void with a few scattered & unorganized renegades from Menzoberranzan.

So I'd be very interested in the context at play here. Is she portrayed as a 'new' goddess that the Menzo-born drow haven't encountered before, only worshipped by the Aevendrow in isolation or what. Does she still hold her previous focus on foiling Lolth and saving the drow from her mother's corruption? Is the familial connection between her and her mother mentioned? Or is she just some drow Diana expy, a sorta generically good nature goddess of the hunt?

A reconciliation between the Salvatore side of drow lore and the rest(particularly in regards to the Dark Seldarine) has been a long time coming, but my impression is the rift between the two seems bigger than ever right now in 5e, in no small way due to the aggressive retcons RAS has pursued recently in regards to the drow. I am concerned with what in regards to Eilistraee and the rest of the Drow deities has the potential to be reshaped to fit his divergent vision for the drow now that he might finally be willing to address some of what he has left behind, to be blunt.
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