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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 21 Apr 2022 :  18:43:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Dungeons & Dragons Will Return to Dragonlance and Spelljammer This Year

Okay, it looks like I was wrong on Spelljammer. They are bringing it back, though from this page, it looks like it's not space travel any more, it's Astral travel. I can't claim enthusiasm about that, though I'll reserve further judgement until I have more info.

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Brimstone
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Posted - 21 Apr 2022 :  18:46:59  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looks like you beat me to it Wooly!

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 21 Apr 2022 :  19:10:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

Looks like you beat me to it Wooly!



I saw the news in a Kobold Press Facebook group, of all places!

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Azar
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886 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2022 :  22:50:07  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am scared.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.

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maransreth
Learned Scribe

Australia
155 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2022 :  23:32:44  Show Profile Send maransreth a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I have to agree with Wooly - I think WotC is trying to "simplify" things and get rid of phlogiston and replace it with the Astral plane. Which sux.

So shall reserve judgement until we know more.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 21 Apr 2022 :  23:38:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are minis, too: https://www.dndmini.com/collections/spelljammer-adventures-in-space

I'm noticing a lot of the original Spelljammer designs in these ships, though some of them -- like my beloved Hammership! -- appear to have been renamed. This is an improvement for some of them, like the Man-O-War and the Tradesman, but others, like my Hammership and the Deathspider, I'm neutral on.

On DNDBeyond, they say "Spelljammer: Adventures in Space presents the Astral Plane as a Dungeons & Dragons campaign setting unlike any other. Home of the stars and gateway to the heavens, the Astral Plane teems with excitement and possibility. With the help of magic, spelljammers can cross the oceans of Wildspace, ply the silvery void known as the Astral Sea, and hop between worlds of the D&D multiverse."

So unless I'm reading this wrong, wildspace is now in the Astral. And while that may be better than the prior approach of "it's space, but not space as you know it," I'm not hugely enthusiastic about the change. It has the potential to be a huge improvement, but it's not the Spelljammer that I fell in love with lo these many many moons ago.

I hope they fix spelljammer helms -- the old concept of "Your butt touches the seat, you've got no spells" really needed to be revised.

Also, I hope they do something to keep spelljamming from potentially breaking ground-based campaign settings by allowing for ready air travel/suborbital hops.

It looks like the Rock of Bral is going to be pretty prominent; this pleases me. Always liked the Rock.

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HighOne
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Posted - 22 Apr 2022 :  01:58:40  Show Profile Send HighOne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
About time!
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Seethyr
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Posted - 22 Apr 2022 :  02:09:58  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My guess, phlogiston is still used as a word but Terran folks just never realized its actually an extent of the Astral Plane. This way, contradictions can be handwaived away. The flammability issue will be the only thing I wonder how they will handle.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 22 Apr 2022 :  02:10:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azar

I am scared.



I hear you. Spelljammer was my first love of D&D settings -- hence my username. And of late, the only time WotC has impressed me was when I was in utter awe of how badly they handled something.

Still, though, it's Spelljammer -- so I'm going to be laying some money aside for that. I can't not get it!

Also gonna have to find a way to buy singles of some of them minis, too. I think a "Hammerhead" would look good on the dashboard of my car.

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Ayrik
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Canada
7714 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2022 :  03:13:15  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
... Planescape envy ... mutter mutter grumble phlfbt ...

[/Ayrik]
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PattPlays
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452 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2022 :  03:42:47  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
The Astral Adventurer’s Guide, a 64-page hardcover book for players and Dungeon Masters that presents the Astral Plane as a campaign setting and includes space-based character options, spells and magic items, deck plans and descriptions for spelljamming ships, and more
Boo’s Astral Menagerie, a 64-page hardcover book for Dungeon Masters that presents game statistics and descriptions for over 60 creatures found in Wildspace and the Astral Sea, including astral elves, cosmic horrors, lunar and solar dragons, murder comets, and space clowns.
Light of Xaryxis, a 64-page hardcover adventure for Dungeon Masters that is set in the Astral Plane and designed for characters of levels 5–8
Double-sided poster map of the Rock of Bral, an asteroid-city that can serve as both an adventure location and a campaign hub in the Astral Plane
Sturdy, four-panel Dungeon Master’s screen designed for use with the books in this set


I'm sorry, where's the Spelljammer? What, spelljamming ships wedged into a DM book about the astral sea? There's not even an adventure for the rock of bral, just some fluff-up of the old city map. Are you freaking kidding me wotc?

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 22 Apr 2022 :  04:14:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

... Planescape envy ... mutter mutter grumble phlfbt ...



Honestly, I expected the revisited settings to be Dragonlance and Dark Sun, with Planescape being a strong possibility. I've long felt that Spelljammer was just too problematic, and even when it was going strong, it wasn't as popular as most of the other settings -- so this move really surprises me.

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PattPlays
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Posted - 22 Apr 2022 :  06:04:05  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just watched the animated trailer, which depicts the rock of bral floating in a pink astral mist. They're really going to depict a satellite asteroid as an astral object, not in the material plane. I bet you these spelljammers will get a magic item entry as a wonderous vehicle that "allows you to plane shift into the astral" and that's it. So much for sailing to Greyhawk or Krynn without ever leaving the material plane. Candlekeep mysteries has a rocketship, Baldur's Gate III has nautiloids with space-illithid, but the Tears of Selune are too complicated for a mass fantasy audience?

They advertise Sun and Moon dragons in the bestiary, which are NOT astral creatures. I just hope that astral background for the Rock of Bral in the trailer isn't canon. They claim to take you through Wildspace.. but I don't see how they're going to have a monster entry that says "this creature lairs on the surface of suns" and then call the Rock of Bral a city in the plane of dreams. Maybe they just plane-shift the city there for an adventure.. That'd be entirely forgivable.

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Ayrik
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Canada
7714 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2022 :  07:46:12  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Honestly, I expected the revisited settings to be Dragonlance and Dark Sun, with Planescape being a strong possibility. I've long felt that Spelljammer was just too problematic, and even when it was going strong, it wasn't as popular as most of the other settings -- so this move really surprises me.

Dark Sun is a post-apocalyptic setting. Which denies players the ability to play with a lot of magical toys. I understand the appeal of no-magic or low-magic gaming. But I also understand that it's a niche few people will enjoy for long - so I'd expect any new Dark Sun will fail unless it is very different (almost unrecognizable) from old Dark Sun.

Dragonlance is a very generic fantasy-medieval trope setting. A good fit for D&D ... except that the Realms also exists, is hugely popular, is supported by countless publications, and basically does all the same high-fantasy stuff better.

Planescape has long been my fave, of course. It was definitely a more refined product than the Spelljammer attempt which preceded it. But I admit it's sort of burdened by too much weirdness and complexity. And, after you play it long enough, it's also burdened by how obviously contrived all the DM railroading has to be. Spelljammer has other problems - namely the really long and tedious travel times - but it also has amazing imagery based on flying ships and space pirates, very compelling stuff. Too bad Wizbro didn't push Spelljammer out when all those pirate movies were popular, they missed the boat.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 22 Apr 2022 :  10:52:10  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

I just watched the animated trailer, which depicts the rock of bral floating in a pink astral mist. They're really going to depict a satellite asteroid as an astral object, not in the material plane. I bet you these spelljammers will get a magic item entry as a wonderous vehicle that "allows you to plane shift into the astral" and that's it. So much for sailing to Greyhawk or Krynn without ever leaving the material plane. Candlekeep mysteries has a rocketship, Baldur's Gate III has nautiloids with space-illithid, but the Tears of Selune are too complicated for a mass fantasy audience?

They advertise Sun and Moon dragons in the bestiary, which are NOT astral creatures. I just hope that astral background for the Rock of Bral in the trailer isn't canon. They claim to take you through Wildspace.. but I don't see how they're going to have a monster entry that says "this creature lairs on the surface of suns" and then call the Rock of Bral a city in the plane of dreams. Maybe they just plane-shift the city there for an adventure.. That'd be entirely forgivable.



I'm ASSUMING that shortly after takeoff, ships automatically phase into the "near Astral" or something, and that's where wildspace is. I'm also assuming that wildspace will basically be the Astral, as it's been described in the past, with cosmetic changes to look like space.

I'm further ASSUMING that crystal spheres and the phlogiston are no longer a thing.

And the race once known as the Arcane will be getting another name change.

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George Krashos
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Posted - 22 Apr 2022 :  13:49:33  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looks like they've borrowed off the old Voidjammer Dragon article.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 22 Apr 2022 :  15:07:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Looks like they've borrowed off the old Voidjammer Dragon article.

-- George Krashos



Which was in one of the issues with a lot of Spelljammer content -- #159. I think that was the same one that put the Rock of Bral in the Tears of Selûne.

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Balmar Foghaven
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Posted - 22 Apr 2022 :  20:07:49  Show Profile Send Balmar Foghaven a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Given how its being directly tied to the Astral Plane, I'm wondering if this is not some sort of fusion of Spelljammer and Planescape settings... Jammers that can plane shift to any of the inner or outer planes, anyone?
That said, I wonder how this will affect the lore surrounding crystal spheres...

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 22 Apr 2022 :  20:22:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven

Given how its being directly tied to the Astral Plane, I'm wondering if this is not some sort of fusion of Spelljammer and Planescape settings... Jammers that can plane shift to any of the inner or outer planes, anyone?
That said, I wonder how this will affect the lore surrounding crystal spheres...



Like I said, I think crystal spheres and the phlogiston are going to be removed from the equation.

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Storyteller Hero
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Posted - 23 Apr 2022 :  00:03:00  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It might be possible to have the Astral Plane thing while also preserving the crystal spheres + phlogiston at the same time, but it might only be in DMsGuild Community Creations, like the Realmspace project I've been working on and off with (I have a gap bridge in mind, but it depends on how the fine details are described in the official text).



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Outlander
Acolyte

USA
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Posted - 23 Apr 2022 :  00:32:29  Show Profile Send Outlander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So first off, I saw on FB that Jeff Grubb wasn't consulted or asked about any part of this. So, that's already a little disappointing. That aside:

My main issue with this is not that the Phlogiston is gone. It admittedly had issues. The main issue is that it makes the Astral Plane into a place that can be accessed by physically traveling "up".

Previously, there was an elegant hierarchy of infinite planes, starting at the entirely physical, and going toward the entirely spiritual:

- Inner Planes (Physical)

- Ethereal Plane (Transitive)

- Material Plane (Physical/Spiritual)

- Astral Plane (Transitive)

- Outer Planes (Spiritual)

With these new changes, if I understand them correctly, it's now structured like this:

- Inner Planes (Physical)

- Ethereal Plane (Transitive)

- Astral Plane (contains crystal spheres, which are finite pockets of Material Plane)

- Outer Planes (Spiritual)

And spelljammers go from a planet to wildspace, then cross the barrier of a crystal sphere to reach the Astral Plane. From there, if they're just going to another planet, they can head to another crystal sphere and go back in. But the Astral Plane is not the Phlogiston, and there are key things to note:

- In the Astral Plane, nothing ever ages, hungers, thirsts, or needs to breathe. This creates inherent difficulties for spacefaring races, and inherent nuances. Children cannot grow up in the Astral Plane- they have to spend their childhoods outside of it, in crystal spheres. Air envelopes are redundant; food and water stores are unnecessary. Literally everyone you meet will live indefinitely until killed, leading to vastly different social dynamics.

- The Astral Plane has color pools. These glowing portals lead to the Outer Planes, the homes of the gods, celestials, and fiends. The afterlife is now directly accessible to space pirates who are willing to search the plane for a whole 1d4x10 hours, give or take. This is a major, major difference from the old Spelljammer, which was rather disconnected from the gods. All spacefaring races will have direct access to the Outer Planes, which would have major implications for religiosity.

- The Astral Plane sees frequent use and travel by "wandering angels, demons, devils, night hags, yugoloths, or other planar travelers" (per the DMG). As such, the encounters you're likely to have have been mixed quite a bit with the sorts of encounters you might have in a Planescape campaign.

Overall, I really, truly wish they had kept the old structure. It remains to be seen exactly how they execute this new concept/structure, but my default assumption is that they'll simply fail to address the above nuances (or worse, retcon them- which would contradict the DMG of the same edition).
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PattPlays
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Posted - 23 Apr 2022 :  03:03:37  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Agreed, outlander- and welcome to the forum.

We cried and yelled and shouted and eventually, an executive heard us. What was heard was: "we will buy product if its named spelljammer" and so they set their teams to make "spelljammer" with nobody knowing what it is or why we want it.
Pray for Dragonlance- who knows how much it will be butchered. If Jeff Grubb wasn't consulted for this then that just makes me think that Dragonlance's upcoming 5e modules will have blurbs of flavor quotes in the margins by famous Krynn characters without the novel writers getting consulted on anything. I mean, no products are actually out yet, but the decisions have clearly already been made for both products and WOTC won't turn back. I see no downside to getting all the anger out while we wait. Might help me enjoy this not-at-all-spelljammer suite as an independent astral package unrelated to this whole thing.

Maybe we should all find some quotes from last year and before about various users really really wanting spelljammer in 5e, and then get a side-by-side reaction of their disappointment. Quick, someone play Little Dark Age over a slideshow of original Spelljammer art! Get those worst-timeline vibes going.

Also, RIP the planets of Toril. We will never hear tale of them again. Because the planets no longer exist and Toril is more or less a Flat World like I've heard Greyhawk described as. Above the world is the astral, and selune doesn't exist, the dawn heralds don't exist, the rock of bral is in the astral, and the space-faring illithid are now just illithid.
Rejoice, for your prayers have been answered. Whereas Realmspace lore was once forgotten it shall now be unmade and a dummy shall be gilded and dangled from the pole of the hype that we generated for their pockets.

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:


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Edited by - PattPlays on 23 Apr 2022 03:04:14
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Ayrik
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Canada
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Posted - 23 Apr 2022 :  03:51:55  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, well ... if they're going to reinvent Spelljammer then they can just as easily reinvent Planescape. Which is to say that all of our 2E-inspired expectations for the rules and "terrain features" built into either setting can be completely discarded or transformed.

Of course it's no easy task to shift Spelljammer vessels into the Astral. Whatever new version or metaphor of the Astral Wizbro has decided applies to this edition.

But Gith Pirates have already been doing this since Spelljammer's inception. According to later retro-canon, they'd even been doing before 2E-era Spelljammer rules existed, in older times with older rules, when things worked differently. If Spelljammers adapted to fundamental changes before then they can probably adapt to fundamental changes again.

Not trying to draw into complicated pedantics about the technical intricacies inherent to the settings. Just trying to point out that since the settings (and rules within them) are entirely invented, it's not so hard to imagine them being reinvented again.

They certainly can't do much worse than old Spelljammer in terms of pubnlishing quality. But they certainly could mess things up even more without figureheads like Grubbs on the prow.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Apr 2022 03:56:30
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 23 Apr 2022 :  03:53:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Outlander

So first off, I saw on FB that Jeff Grubb wasn't consulted or asked about any part of this. So, that's already a little disappointing. That aside:

My main issue with this is not that the Phlogiston is gone. It admittedly had issues. The main issue is that it makes the Astral Plane into a place that can be accessed by physically traveling "up".

(snip)




We don't know ANYTHING other than that space is now in the Astral Sea. We don't know that that works, at all -- so we don't know that up goes to the Astral.

My personal SPECULATION is that there's a limit to how high a ship can go, over a planet. I think ships will phase out of the Prime and into the Astral. It may be that it happens at a particular altitude, it may be that it happens X rounds after a helm is activated. And if it is altitude-based, then there will likely be some limitation in place to make sure it's only ships that this happens to; anything else will only get so high before it can't generate enough lift to keep going up.

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PattPlays
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Posted - 23 Apr 2022 :  03:57:09  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Outlander

So first off, I saw on FB that Jeff Grubb wasn't consulted or asked about any part of this. So, that's already a little disappointing. That aside:

My main issue with this is not that the Phlogiston is gone. It admittedly had issues. The main issue is that it makes the Astral Plane into a place that can be accessed by physically traveling "up".

(snip)




We don't know ANYTHING other than that space is now in the Astral Sea. We don't know that that works, at all -- so we don't know that up goes to the Astral.

My personal SPECULATION is that there's a limit to how high a ship can go, over a planet. I think ships will phase out of the Prime and into the Astral. It may be that it happens at a particular altitude, it may be that it happens X rounds after a helm is activated. And if it is altitude-based, then there will likely be some limitation in place to make sure it's only ships that this happens to; anything else will only get so high before it can't generate enough lift to keep going up.



Hasbro: "The moon and sun don't exist stop asking to go there. Also here are some Sun and Moon dragons. They live in the astral sea, and not on the sun or the moon because the sun and moon aren't real stop asking."

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:


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Edited by - PattPlays on 23 Apr 2022 03:58:05
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 23 Apr 2022 :  04:04:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

Agreed, outlander- and welcome to the forum.

We cried and yelled and shouted and eventually, an executive heard us. What was heard was: "we will buy product if its named spelljammer" and so they set their teams to make "spelljammer" with nobody knowing what it is or why we want it.
Pray for Dragonlance- who knows how much it will be butchered. If Jeff Grubb wasn't consulted for this then that just makes me think that Dragonlance's upcoming 5e modules will have blurbs of flavor quotes in the margins by famous Krynn characters without the novel writers getting consulted on anything. I mean, no products are actually out yet, but the decisions have clearly already been made for both products and WOTC won't turn back. I see no downside to getting all the anger out while we wait. Might help me enjoy this not-at-all-spelljammer suite as an independent astral package unrelated to this whole thing.

Maybe we should all find some quotes from last year and before about various users really really wanting spelljammer in 5e, and then get a side-by-side reaction of their disappointment. Quick, someone play Little Dark Age over a slideshow of original Spelljammer art! Get those worst-timeline vibes going.

Also, RIP the planets of Toril. We will never hear tale of them again. Because the planets no longer exist and Toril is more or less a Flat World like I've heard Greyhawk described as. Above the world is the astral, and selune doesn't exist, the dawn heralds don't exist, the rock of bral is in the astral, and the space-faring illithid are now just illithid.
Rejoice, for your prayers have been answered. Whereas Realmspace lore was once forgotten it shall now be unmade and a dummy shall be gilded and dangled from the pole of the hype that we generated for their pockets.



Here's a couple more "maybes": Maybe it won't be all that bad. Maybe we could do this absolutely crazy thing of waiting until it actually comes out, and judge it based on what it actually is, instead of condemning it based purely on your own uninformed expectations.

And yes, "uninformed". The product isn't out yet, no previews have been released, no one has been given advanced copies to discuss. As of now, IT DOES NOT EXIST. So you have NO information beyond an advertisement, and yet you're trash-talking it.

You want to speculate? That's fine, I encourage it. And I encourage actually looking at the product when it comes out.

I have been utterly sick, for years now, of people rushing to condemn new products the second they're announced. This is one of the things that drives fans away and encourages companies to entirely drop product lines.

All I ask for is one simple thing: Have an INFORMED opinion. Judge something when you can actually lay hands on it and see what it is. Until then, enough with the "this thing doesn't exist yet but it sucks!" crap.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Apr 2022 04:07:26
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Here's a couple things I've noticed from looking at the video that was released, and looking at the minis that are coming out.

It still looks like space. It may be the Astral, but they kept the original thing of standing outside on a wooden ship while in space.

The Rock of Bral is clearly recognizable. Someone went back to the original material for that.

Sure, they renamed some of them, but several of the ships that we're getting minis of are from the original boxed set. One of them, a beholder ship, was one that was just a line drawing in that set and never had a deckplan.

At least two of the other ships come from Lost Ships -- a wonderful Spelljammer product by our own Ed Greenwood. Honestly, I rate that book right behind the original boxed set, and well above any of the -space books, including Realmspace.

And things like dohwar, space swine, zodar, and of course the giant space hamster, are all from the Monstrous Compendium entries.

They may not have consulted Jeff Grubb, but I don't see an issue with that. They consulted his work, which is just as important (and easier than involving someone who is now an outsider).

Changes have obviously been made, but I've already seen more effort to incorporate old material than anything WotC has given us for a long time.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Apr 2022 04:26:13
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Ayrik
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Posted - 23 Apr 2022 :  04:45:13  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

And things like dohwar, space swine, zodar, and of course the giant space hamster, are all from the Monstrous Compendium entries.

They may not have consulted Jeff Grubb, but I don't see an issue with that. They consulted his work, which is just as important (and easier than involving someone who is now an outsider).

Changes have obviously been made, but I've already seen more effort to incorporate old material than anything WotC has given us for a long time.

Giant Space Hamster, of course. Never saw one myself (at least not outside Candlekeep), perhaps I am fortunate in that regard.

I liked Xixchil, Kreen, Rastipedes, Scro. Scro are awesome.
Never really liked Dracons and Hadozee, at least not how illogical and ill-fitted they would seem onboard ships.
I disliked Giff. Utterly implausible and ridiculous. I simply replaced them with Space Minotaurs, it made everyone at my table happy.

But very good observations about consulting the work itself, not the creator of the work. If you're interested enough to appreciate the merits of the work then anything you derive from it will also have merit.
Though I admit I'm skeptical about WotC's intentions (or competence). This is the sort of product I'd examine carefully at the store before buying (or not buying). I hope for the best but must also expect more of the worst.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Apr 2022 04:48:35
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Wooly Rupert
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik


Though I admit I'm skeptical about WotC's intentions (or competence). This is the sort of product I'd examine carefully at the store before buying (or not buying). I hope for the best but must also expect more of the worst.



Yeah, they don't have the best track record, of late... I've seen enough to be hopeful, but I've been hopeful before and they've let me down.

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PattPlays
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Posted - 23 Apr 2022 :  06:09:36  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

Agreed, outlander- and welcome to the forum.

We cried and yelled and shouted and eventually, an executive heard us. What was heard was: "we will buy product if its named spelljammer" and so they set their teams to make "spelljammer" with nobody knowing what it is or why we want it.
Pray for Dragonlance- who knows how much it will be butchered. If Jeff Grubb wasn't consulted for this then that just makes me think that Dragonlance's upcoming 5e modules will have blurbs of flavor quotes in the margins by famous Krynn characters without the novel writers getting consulted on anything. I mean, no products are actually out yet, but the decisions have clearly already been made for both products and WOTC won't turn back. I see no downside to getting all the anger out while we wait. Might help me enjoy this not-at-all-spelljammer suite as an independent astral package unrelated to this whole thing.

Maybe we should all find some quotes from last year and before about various users really really wanting spelljammer in 5e, and then get a side-by-side reaction of their disappointment. Quick, someone play Little Dark Age over a slideshow of original Spelljammer art! Get those worst-timeline vibes going.

Also, RIP the planets of Toril. We will never hear tale of them again. Because the planets no longer exist and Toril is more or less a Flat World like I've heard Greyhawk described as. Above the world is the astral, and selune doesn't exist, the dawn heralds don't exist, the rock of bral is in the astral, and the space-faring illithid are now just illithid.
Rejoice, for your prayers have been answered. Whereas Realmspace lore was once forgotten it shall now be unmade and a dummy shall be gilded and dangled from the pole of the hype that we generated for their pockets.



Here's a couple more "maybes": Maybe it won't be all that bad. Maybe we could do this absolutely crazy thing of waiting until it actually comes out, and judge it based on what it actually is, instead of condemning it based purely on your own uninformed expectations.

And yes, "uninformed". The product isn't out yet, no previews have been released, no one has been given advanced copies to discuss. As of now, IT DOES NOT EXIST. So you have NO information beyond an advertisement, and yet you're trash-talking it.

You want to speculate? That's fine, I encourage it. And I encourage actually looking at the product when it comes out.

I have been utterly sick, for years now, of people rushing to condemn new products the second they're announced. This is one of the things that drives fans away and encourages companies to entirely drop product lines.

All I ask for is one simple thing: Have an INFORMED opinion. Judge something when you can actually lay hands on it and see what it is. Until then, enough with the "this thing doesn't exist yet but it sucks!" crap.



I'm sure it will be surprising and satisfying and everyone will have fun with it. I'm just kind of excited in a confused way. I'm not mad but I am suspicious. It's a fun time! The last dozen books have been coming along fine (except MPMM which.. definitely gives credence to some doomsday beliefs about rewriting monsters to be simpler and the further erasure of the Ecology of Monsters) and this one is probably going to be similar. The april fools announcement had us all feeling down, and then surprise! They're actually doing it.

Honestly I am having more fun pointing out the monkey's-paw nature of it than anything else. Though the Rock being in the Astral, as someone who is currently running and researching a Realms game where I had a few realmspace pies in the oven, makes me feel like I'll actually get nothing that calls out to the specific setting- despite using the Rock- it's confounding. I had this plan involving a rogue plant from Garden crash-landing in a player's druid grove and encountering a Space-Faring Illithid. It would have been nice for that scene, in a few months, to coincide with official rules for the solar system and the kinds of things you can bump into up there. Some nice full tables like from Fizban's about Coliar and the many mysterious and bewildering objects in orbit around the sun in the official 5e setting. I don't think they're even going to acknowledge it even though they're using Bral. it's just so weird right now. I know we gotta wait, but I'm not really trashing it. I said up front- I think this project started as an Astral project and someone said "make it spelljammer". That's not trashing the core content. I think we will get mostly original monsters (as seen by the new previews, save for the poor clockwork horror) and mostly original plot because that stuff was probably already written before they slapped spelljammer on.
It all looks so mixed up and disassociated and yet is advertised as a cohesive whole.

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Edited by - PattPlays on 23 Apr 2022 06:13:24
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 23 Apr 2022 :  16:14:02  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I find it curious that all the discussion is about Spelljammer, and no one is paying attention to the return of Dragonlance... While I've often said that Spelljammer was my first love of D&D settings, Dragonlance was my introduction to D&D settings (and fiction!), and it was seeing a blurb saying something like "from the publishers of the Dragonlance saga" that caught my eye and led to my first purchase of anything Forgotten Realms-related.

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