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ericlboyd
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Posted - 12 Jul 2021 :  01:43:52  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Greetings,

Has anyone ever put together a map of the undersea kingdoms of the Trackless Sea?

Off the top of my head, likely sites include:

Kyrasti, capital of the Coral Kingdom. Located east southeast of Belintholme.

Thunderfoam, capital of Aluchambolsunvae. Located due north of Evermeet and due west of Uttersea. (Demihuman Deities, page 106. FOR8 - Pages from the Mages, page 30.)

Citadel of the Seven Seas. Located in the heart of the Mintarn archipelago. (Demihuman Deities, page 106.)

Nindrol. Located around the island of Toaridge-at-the_Sun's Setting. (Dragon #267, page 83.)

Ondroth. Located off the coast of the Dragon's Head peninsula. (Dragon #267, page 83.)

What sites am I missing?

--Eric

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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/

louis_bowwow
Acolyte

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Posted - 12 Jul 2021 :  05:12:45  Show Profile  Visit louis_bowwow's Homepage Send louis_bowwow a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is Itzcatli, Realm of the Sea People just north of the Gulf of Cordell near Maztica. It’s a sahuagin kingdom, I think it only barely gets touched on in the Maztica boxed set.
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 12 Jul 2021 :  15:28:10  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will set my search engine to finding something tonight. Nothing springs to mind off the top of my head at the moment.

Are you only interested in the trackless sea, not the sea of swords or the sea of moonshae. I'm going to guess everything west of the sword coast up to Evermeet or Maztica

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 12 Jul 2021 :  19:16:23  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A major sea elf city between the Coral Kingdom and Evermeet is called Iumathiashae ("Mother of Oceans") - Demihumans of the Realms pg 5 and Race of Faerun pg 28 (which also said there are many additional aquatic elf colonies off the coast of Tethyr)

Slarkrathel has desires to create his own kingdom according to Cloak and Dagger so one can only assume he has a few settlements he has conquered around Ascarle.

Tir Faoi Thoinn - from Mike Schley's map of the Moonshae Isles

Land Under Wave - from Realms Bestiary I pg 97 (i think this might be the same as Tir Faoi Thoinn)

Maelstrom, the citadel of Hekaton deep within the Trackless Sea - Storm King's Thunder pg 9

Thats from the first pass through.

Do you want to include locations in the Sea of Swords and the Great Sea or is it just the Trackless Sea

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 12 Jul 2021 :  21:35:59  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just in case you want the Sea of Swords


The Knights of the Killer Whale are an order of Sashelan crusaders dedicated to the destruction of the evil races of the sea, including ixitxachiti, koalinth, krakens, merrow, scrags, and sahuagin. The order is based in the Citadel of the Seven Seas, a great hollowed-out undersea volcanic plug encircled by the Mintarn archipelago in the Sea of Swords - Demihuman Deities - pg 129

The Legacy of Deep Death is the only temple of Myrkul established after the Time of Troubles. The temple was constructed through magic by a trio of Myrkulyte clerical liches (whose spells are believed to be granted by Cyric or Velsharoon, or who may have discovered a lich state enabling them to cast priest spells without a deity) on the sea bed of the Sea of Swords. The sea floor in a 5-mile-radius around the temple is permanently tainted by Myrkul's dying essence. The brown murk rained down from the sky after the Lord of Bones was dimension doored by Midnight away from the city of Waterdeep while in his final death throes. Myrkul's legacy is an ever-expanding horde of lacedons, sea zombies, and countless other aquatic undead horrors that prey on ships passing overhead and denizens of the deep traveling through the region. The temple itself is guarded by a monstrous undead kraken and wildly mutated sahuagin. - Faiths and Avatars pg 128

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ericlboyd
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Posted - 13 Jul 2021 :  00:07:27  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wanted Sea of Swords and Moonshae local seas as well.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Jul 2021 :  01:36:00  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not sure what you're looking into Eric, but something that's always hit me... the rockfire disaster that forced dwarves towards Maztica. It occurred beneath the ocean technically. I've often wondered if there might not be some dwarven or drow cities beneath the ocean, perhaps thriving on the heat of a lava tube even.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 13 Jul 2021 :  11:12:54  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Itzcali as mentioned before, a nation of sahuagin near Maztica - Gold and Glory pg 10

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 13 Jul 2021 :  16:23:10  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm sure i saw a place called Oberon's Maw which i think was south of the Moonshae Isles, but i can't find the reference. I think there were a lot of whirlpools there.

If i can locate it i'll update this.

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Divinity
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Posted - 13 Jul 2021 :  23:38:17  Show Profile  Visit Divinity's Homepage Send Divinity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wish there was more info on the seas outside the Inner Sea. I've considered mapping the depths of the rest of the seas as best I could (like I got from the Seas of Fallen Stars), but that seems like a lot of hunting individual references and guessing for most of the rest. My map only goes just west of the Moonshaes so I can't reach what's near Evermeet, but I'd love to add what's found here to my map. I think Maelstrom is the only thing listed here that I found when I peeked around for stuff.

- Craig Vincent
My Faerûn Continent Map
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ericlboyd
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Posted - 14 Jul 2021 :  03:43:21  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Not sure what you're looking into Eric, but something that's always hit me... the rockfire disaster that forced dwarves towards Maztica. It occurred beneath the ocean technically. I've often wondered if there might not be some dwarven or drow cities beneath the ocean, perhaps thriving on the heat of a lava tube even.



I suspect there is a deep N/S rift that severed the undersea tunnels. Probably somewhere between the Moonshae Isles and the Emerald Isles (including Evermeet).

--Eric

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 14 Jul 2021 :  09:30:01  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kressilacc, a realm of sahuagin in the sea of Moonshae, nominally a vassal of the Coral Kingdom.

Deepvale - an aquatic elf nation mentioned in the Coral Kingdom novel, not given a location but the presumption is that it lies around the Moonshae Isles.

Regarding the Coral Kingdom, it is noted as existing 1000 miles south of Corwell, which puts it near Calimshan / Chult (George theorised tidal bore gates open periodically to allow scrags from the south to come through and impose their rule on the sahuagin.

The Coral Kingdom is also noted in other places as existing near Evermeet. However, i've seen one mention of the Coral Kingdom being home to aquatic elves. I reckon that the Coral Kingdom was an ancient and very large aquatic elven nation that has gradually fallen apart over time. The scrags must have taken on the name for themselves when they conquered its southern portions, then spread to the Moonshae Isles via gates, and very recently conquered portions of it near Evermeet (Kyrasti sounds elvish more than it does trollish). Weaker support of this is in Elfshadow when Arilyn uses a contact in the Relay to pass information all the way to Evermeet in 12 hours, implying the loose network now was once more closely allied with Evermeet (through an aquatic elven nation that dominated large parts of the Trackless Sea and the Sea of Swords) and left the infrastructure of gates and other magic to aid communication over such a vast distance

Just my thoughts.

I've pretty much exhausted my searches so you have everything i could find. Apologies for not being able to locate Oberon's Maw again. I'll keep looking and update here if i find anything else in my reading.

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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 14 Jul 2021 09:35:16
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ericlboyd
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Posted - 14 Jul 2021 :  12:46:17  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's an interesting point about the "location" of the Coral Kingdoms, given that the novel of the same name also places Kyrasti near Belintholme.

There's some implied undersea topology / fallen kingdoms in the first Threat from the Sea novel. Perhaps that could be tied into a sprawling Coral Kingdom?

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 14 Jul 2021 :  13:43:55  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Unfortunately I've not read that far in the novels. Did you purposefully use Coral KingdomS rather than the singular. It could be that the aquatic elves controlled a vast undersea empire of multiple kingdoms in the past or that a confederation of multiple races joined together to ally against undersea perils (like kraken and iakhovas) known as the Coral Kingdoms. The Relay being a remnant of these fallen kingdoms and the collapse of that confederation.

I'll put threat from the sea on my next set to read.

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ericlboyd
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Posted - 14 Jul 2021 :  14:10:37  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just a typo. Although a ocean-spanning empire that collapsed slowly would be consistent with elven behavior elsewhere.

Also see what George and I said about the origins of at least some Trackless Sea sea elves in Havens of Miyeritar.

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ericlboyd
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Posted - 14 Jul 2021 :  17:36:32  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Deepvale - an aquatic elf nation mentioned in the Coral Kingdom novel, not given a location but the presumption is that it lies around the Moonshae Isles.


I might quibble with this one. I think it's a merfolk kingdom.

===

“They assumed the water would stop you. I need more secure restraint." With a tight smile, the merman gestured with his fishy tail in case Tristan missed the point. "I am Marqillor, of Deepvale," added the prisoner.”

...

“Marqillor smiled wryly. "And I am the Crown Prince of Deepvale," he concluded.”

...

“Deepvale is not terribly distant [from Kyrasti], though admittedly it would be a costly venture to send our army against Kyrasti.”

===
quote:

Regarding the Coral Kingdom, it is noted as existing 1000 miles south of Corwell, which puts it near Calimshan / Chult (George theorised tidal bore gates open periodically to allow scrags from the south to come through and impose their rule on the sahuagin.


I might also quibble with this one.

===
“A legendary place, the Coral Kingdom-at least, so I had always thought," announced Tavish, the most well traveled of them all.

"Where is it?" demanded Alicia.

"Hundreds of miles to the south of here, somewhere across the Trackless Sea," explained Keane when no one else answered.

"There's nothing for a thousand miles," objected Alicia. "Barely a few tiny islands!"

"You heard it was a legend. That's because no human has been there to prove its existence. The Coral Kingdom lies a hundred fathoms beneath the sea," concluded Keane, grimly quiet.”

===

That suggests it's a few hundred miles, not 1,000. So maybe SSW of Flamsterd Isle by 400 miles? And the islands she's discussing include Lantan?

quote:

The Coral Kingdom is also noted in other places as existing near Evermeet. However, i've seen one mention of the Coral Kingdom being home to aquatic elves.


I'd like to find this reference. That would be pretty significant.

--Eric

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Edited by - ericlboyd on 14 Jul 2021 17:39:41
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 14 Jul 2021 :  17:51:41  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I cant say I enjoyed the moonshae novels terribly so I may have become a little inattentive when taking my notes. My bad.

I'll set my laptop to searching for all instances of the coral kingdom and see if I can find it again. Although I didn't have much luck searching for Oberons Maw so fingers crossed.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 14 Jul 2021 :  18:51:22  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Found it in Demihumans of the Realms pg 5

quote:
Major Homelands: Many nomadic groups widely scattered through open saltwater seas. The largest settled regions is the Coral Kingdom in the Great Sea (Trackless Sea). A major sea elf city between the Coral Kingdom and Evermeet is called Iumathiashae ("Mother of Oceans"). Many sea elf colonies also lie off the coast of Tethyr. Some sea elves now inhabit the Sea of Fallen Stars.


It doesnt specifically say the Coral Kingdom is an aquatic elf nation but describing a Scrag realm as a settled region seems a bit of a stretch (claimed or occupied would work better for several thousand filthy sea trolls). And the fact that the nomadic groups are mentioned in conjunction with the Coral Kingdom implies they live there (nomadically). I cant imagine anyone would willing enter scrag territory unless they had no other choice and the aquatic elves have a whole ocean to enjoy.

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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 14 Jul 2021 18:52:38
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ericlboyd
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Posted - 14 Jul 2021 :  20:54:47  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's coming back to me.

The original reference to Iumathiashae was in Elves of Evermeet, page 28. I then built on that in Demihuman Deities.

My guess is that the "Coral Kingdom" refers to a vast region dominated by scrags and merrow. It's a large area stretching from 400 miles SSW of Flamsterd's Isle to within a few days of Evermeet south of Belintholme.

Neighboring realms include the merfolk kingdom of Deepvale and the sea elf city of Iumathiashae. I suspect the Deepvale is also a geographical feature, part of which exists within the borders of the Coral Kingdom and is considered part of that realm. (This explains the additional reference to scrags / merrow assembling in Deepvale earlier in the novel.)

I don't think this precludes a fallen sea elf kingdom, but it doesn't require one.

Note also the intro chapters of the first novel of the Threat from the Sea trilogy.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 14 Jul 2021 :  21:12:03  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Doesnt require an elvish kingdom, but the naming is the unusual thing, the Coral Kingdom sounds like a work of art, something beautiful, not a land full of trolls.

Kyrasti could even be translated into something elvish approximating to "completely flawless" - Kyre being flawless, and ast being "full". Not a description you would make of a city made by trolls.

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ericlboyd
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Posted - 01 Jul 2022 :  20:23:53  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Deepvale is apparently off the coast of Whitefish Bay. See Dungeon #196, page 5, and Dragon #376, page 63, for maps by Mike Schley. (The latter does not actually show Deepvale.)

To be honest, I think this is in the wrong place, given the text in the novel. I would have put Deepvale off the west coast of the Moonshaes so that you could have scrags and merrow assembling there.

Given the mapping though, I think it can stay. One just has to assume that the weird reference to the scrags and merrow assembling in Deepvale was a mistake in the novel (which it did seem to be) and should have been "assembling in the Coral Kingdom."

--Eric

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 01 Jul 2022 :  20:51:36  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You could have deepvale split into several places.

The same tidal bore gate that links calimshan to the moonshaes (for the scrags to come through) could be part of a much larger network. We have lots of surface elven gate networks that connect far off elven places, why not undersea gate networks.

If I remember correctly there was a mention in one of the elaine cunningham novels about an undersea network of intelligent creatures that were able to a message from waterdeep to Evermeet in a single day, which is impossible even with magic communication (no creature or sound could travel so far) unless gates were used to skip the distance.

So deepvale might exist in whitefish Bay and on the west side of the moonshae isles. The Deepvale could be an actual place in the waters west of the moonshae, while the nation of deepvale is home to several clans of sea elves of common descent or alliance that flit between the Deepvale and Whitefish Bay (I doubt a coastal bay would have a deep underwater vale in it so the name is inappropriate for the location, and the frequent sahuagin incursions in the past when they killed one of the high kings mean it is unlikely that a permanent sea elf presence is here long term)

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ericlboyd
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Posted - 04 Jul 2022 :  11:51:33  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gary, good ideas. However, since Tom already did the "realm split into many locations" in Bestiary #1 for the Land Under Wave, I think it works to keep Deepvale a deepwater valley off Whitefish Bay off the eastern coast of Alaron, as shown on Mike Schley's map. It's consistent with the novels as I re-read them.

Likewise, despite the name, the most consistent use of the Coral Kingdom is to describe a region of wandering scrags and merrow between Evermeet / Iumathiashae from 400 miles SSW of Flamsterd's Isle to within a few days of Evermeet south of Belintholme.

However, I did rediscover one cool thing missing from the above: "The River" (think the Gulf Stream).

Here's how Elaine described it in "Tangled Webs."

“To Liriel's chagrin, the Elfmaid did not head directly for Ruathym. Hrolf set course for Neverwinter, a coastal city some three hundred miles to the north. The Ruathen wished to trade some of their stolen gold for Neverwinter crafts, but there was another, more practical reason for the diversion as well. Neverwinter was named for its unusually warm climate and a harbor that remained free of ice year round. This was in part due to the River, a current of warm water and air that swept eastward from Evermeet, over the island of Gundarlun, and narrowing until it touched Neverwinter's shores. So early in the spring, sailing the River was far safer than taking their chances against the ice floes that dotted the open sea. Hrolf planned to take to the River at Neverwinter, sail to Gundarlun to fish for spring herring, then travel due south to Ruathym. The expected profit was considerable, but this added time to the journey that Liriel had not considered."

--Eric

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 04 Jul 2022 :  12:26:37  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That river could act as a "hotspot" for life in the watery depths.

Warmer water would encourage the growth of smaller creatures that others feed upon and would likely benefit undersea plants as well. So you may see a strip of relatively abundant life along this course.

The question of course is what causes this "river". The gulf stream is an analogue from the real world but that winds through oceans and doesnt terminate at a land mass (I think). Which means this river might have its source in a volcanic rift that stretches across the ocean (neverwinter being sat atop a volcano). Or it could be something magical - what better way to leave a clue for people to find a lost island than with a huge oceanic super highway for seafarers to follow, if they know what to look for.

Imagine when the high mages created Evermeet and nobody knew where it was, the only clue left behind was to "follow the River across the Great Sea".

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hashimashadoo
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Posted - 07 Jul 2022 :  13:11:10  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Did Mel Odom ever name the Sahuagin settlement where Laqueel and Huaanton were from?

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