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sleyvas
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USA
11220 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2020 :  22:41:37  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Was thinking about something else, got to thinking about the "dragon laser" that shot up from the Hill of Seven Lost Gods (according to the GHotR entry) and shot the moon. Can't believe I never hit on this before, but do you think this is where the batrachi Zhoukhoudien performed the ritual that released "several primordials" that had been locked away, causing the sundering. I know we've had it said that the Hill of Seven Lost gods were a bunch of primordial entities (like Borem of the Boiling Mud, etc..), and we've also had it named as a place related to several modern deities.

I could easily see it where the gem dragon who is trying to uncover the history just got it wrong, where he says they were trying to blast the king killer star. Then again, if this is how the moon got blasted once, perhaps the dragons came along later and thought they knew how to use it and tried to blast the king killer star later and shot the moon again.

Either way, I figure there's some kind of amazing power source under the ground there of some sort.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2277 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2020 :  16:44:02  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What if this is the site were Asgorath was summoned to Abeir-Toril by the batrachi? This could explain why the draconic deities are too active in an area that has been controlled by human deities in the last few millennia.

The place may be connected to the Dracofont (see Dragon Magic sourcebook).

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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sleyvas
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USA
11220 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2020 :  18:10:46  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

What if this is the site were Asgorath was summoned to Abeir-Toril by the batrachi? This could explain why the draconic deities are too active in an area that has been controlled by human deities in the last few millennia.

The place may be connected to the Dracofont (see Dragon Magic sourcebook).



Yep, we're saying the exact same thing. Zhoukhoudien released the primordials, Asgorath/Asgoroth was one of them. There's also the rumor by the gem dragon that they fired at the "king killer star" from this spot. Maybe he just got it wrong as to when it happened OR they did something here twice.

Just to note as well, this is the same place that was used to create Alias. Not sure what to do with that, but if this place has some kind of divine power source, or if it somehow contains souls/spirits, there might be something we can do with it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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USA
11220 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2020 :  18:35:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's 2 dragon magic sourcebooks I know of (one in 3.5 and a 2e one that's for dragonlance). I didn't see dracofont in them. I'm curious about it though. Did I just overlook it, or is there another sourcebook with same name?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
2277 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2020 :  18:58:02  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The 3.5 one. I didn't knew aboutthe one from Dragonlance!

You should check the sample adventure that is a the end of the 3.5 book. I maybe mistralating it to English. In Spanish was named "Dracofuente", so bear that in mind.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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sleyvas
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USA
11220 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2020 :  21:43:53  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
gotcha, it's called dragonfont where I'm at, and interesting... yeah, it definitely could fit the dragonlaser storyline where its a point for cooperative dragon casting. Doesn't necessarily go along with the release of primordials storyline, except for the fact that Asgorath is known as "the world shaper". The idea that there's a dragon skeleton here and a "weaveghost" type dragon form makes me think that in the original perhaps the original dragon caster sacrificed themselves for the casting. It also reminds me of the "air dragon" from Coliar.

I just got an image in my head of seven "primordial" dragons here casting a spell here that shoots a blast of power into the sky, destroys one "moon" made of ice full of frozen dragon eggs, continues on... hits another mass and tears it into orbiting earth and water islands that we would now call Coliar... and then maybe "etches" magical glyphs onto the crystal sphere opening portals to the plane of radiance (effectively creating new stars). Maybe it even hits the sun. Afterward, survivors from Coliar, in the form of bird folk, "fly" some of their earth islands to Toril to check out where the big light that just destroyed their world came from, and thus the start of the Aearee civilization on the world. Maybe this was all a way to attack Ao himself by trying to set bindings on him via the crystal sphere itself or somesuch. Maybe it was a way for the dragons to "free" themselves from enslavement by the dawn titans by duplicating the world and creating something like the Imaskari Godswall around the new world.

Wonder if the elven sundering was cast at the same place with elves whose High Magic somehow allows them to cast like a dragon.

I'm also forced to wonder if perhaps it could be worthwhile to note that in 1357 multiple beings worked from this same site to create life in the form of Alias by tearing into the soul of a sauroid creature known as Dragonbait, and then months later Ao comes up with some excuse to kick the gods out of the heavens (he says to punish them, I say because he had to do some technical maintenance that involved a "reboot" of some sort that required them out of the way). This also involved Moander getting freed from imprisonment at around the same time (a primordial like entity tied to the hill of seven lost gods and an entity known for "splitting" things into two).
The Dragonfont
This vast, rough chamber of rock seems neither fi nished nor abandoned, as the rest of the shrine does. A rich azure light illuminates the room, emanating from a glowing form in the middle of the chamber. The form seems to be a dragon made of pure blue energy, but its shape and size constantly shift and fl ow. The form seems almost liquid, and deep within it you can see small motes of bright, white light. Beyond the glowing form, an enormous draconic skeleton lays on the floor, unmoving.

This is the dragonfont, the ancient relic forgotten by most of dragonkind. It still can combine the powers of multiple dragons in limited ways, though it no longer has the worldchanging influence that caused elder dragons to hide it away eons ago. When multiple creatures that are of the dragon type or the dragonblood subtype, or that have draconic feats, gather to cast a spell at the dragonfont, they can combine their mystic powers. A single creature is selected to cast a spell, and every other creature present makes a DC 15 Spellcraft check to aid in this endeavor. For each successful check, increase the caster level of the creature engaged in spellcasting by 1 (only for the purpose of a spell cast immediately at the dragonfont). Aiding the caster in this way is exhausting, dealing 1 point of Constitution damage to each otrher participant. This damage represents the energy taken from the participant and infused into the draconic spellcaster. Any effect that prevents a participant from taking this damage also prevents it from granting a caster level boost.



Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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PattPlays
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Posted - 10 Aug 2020 :  03:34:28  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This comes at my just days after learning about the Hills of the Seven Lost Gods, but it's still confusing.
I don't have enough draco-magic information (especially with the wiki's information siding with this Gem Dragon's dracorage mythal theory) to talk about the nature of this mega-laser, but my mind immediately imagines the silly idea of "What if it was a tractor beam?" XD

Still, what's the deal with the two sets of seven? I naturally am obsessed with figuring out the Ghaunadaur temple outside of Westgate, but I can't figure out what is the deal with the two different sets of Seven Gods.
The lost gods of antiquity, and the lost gods of westgate as the wiki calls them.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Seven_Lost_Gods

Not to expand the scope of an already very nebulous theory thread, but what is the deal with these damn hills and the strange choices of primordials that are associated with them? It boggles my mind that these seven hills have survived for so long..

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BadCatMan
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Australia
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Posted - 10 Aug 2020 :  11:19:33  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wrote that wiki article. There's nothing very special about the term "Seven Lost Gods", save that the name has supposedly appeared several times in Realms history and causes confusion (which only arises because the sources insist on talking about them all together). It applies to different groups

The earlier Seven Lost Gods (of Antiquity, as I used to distinguish them) are the primordials or demigods defeated by the Dark Three and later serving Bane. They have no connection to Westgate or the hills that I could find.

The later Seven Lost Gods (of Westgate) are seven deities banned for a time in Westgate's history. During that time, they had temples at the seven hills outside the city.

I could find no connection whatsoever between them, except some speculation that the hills outside Westgate may have been the site for worship of other gods dating back to the time of Jhaamdath. These might be the earlier Seven Lost Gods, but it would be a surprising coincidence if so. Or they might be Auppenser or Murdane or others of a Jhaamdathan pantheon. No one knows.

The lore even suggests there are other groups of Seven Lost Gods, and they might not necessarily be seven, but lots more.

But the two Seven Lost Gods are most likely unrelated, and a lot more is made out of the Westgate hills than they really warrant.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11220 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2020 :  12:35:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And oddly enough, "seven" in relation to the realms is something that occurs in relation to gods a lot. Selune has 7 stars in her symbol, so does Mystra. There's the seven sisters who are all chosen of Mystra. Not saying that that's related to these lost gods, but there may be some "power" to a conjuction of seven things.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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PattPlays
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434 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2020 :  21:26:03  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I believe Ed would call greatly upon the notion of 7 being the most magical number in western folklore.
Maybe there are strange draconic magic sources that could power our omega-space-draco-laser in odd ways, like how Stormkeep heals/empowers dragons for some reason. Although, do we have a combo of Seven Dragons or Seven Promordials in any other instances that we could call upon?

If you had to place seven creatures (or power sources) that would have existed at this time, who would you have firing the laser? There are tons of combinations of Five dragons, but seven? Just spitballing, I want to learn more about this Dracofont as well. Font being a thing to draw or pool power from/into..

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:


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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 12 Aug 2020 :  22:20:21  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

And oddly enough, "seven" in relation to the realms is something that occurs in relation to gods a lot. Selune has 7 stars in her symbol, so does Mystra. There's the seven sisters who are all chosen of Mystra. Not saying that that's related to these lost gods, but there may be some "power" to a conjuction of seven things.





Also the seven Skulls of Skullport, or Tashara of the Seven Skulls...

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11220 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2020 :  22:44:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

I believe Ed would call greatly upon the notion of 7 being the most magical number in western folklore.
Maybe there are strange draconic magic sources that could power our omega-space-draco-laser in odd ways, like how Stormkeep heals/empowers dragons for some reason. Although, do we have a combo of Seven Dragons or Seven Promordials in any other instances that we could call upon?

If you had to place seven creatures (or power sources) that would have existed at this time, who would you have firing the laser? There are tons of combinations of Five dragons, but seven? Just spitballing, I want to learn more about this Dracofont as well. Font being a thing to draw or pool power from/into..



The questionable part on answering that is "existed at this time". In the past, I have thought about this possibly being the same place that the gem dragon Sardior and his six thanes (thanes being representatives of each gem dragon race) ascended to godhood.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Sardior

Sardior kept a court of five thanes, one for each of the various breeds of gem dragons. They were Aleithilithos (an amethyst dragon), Hrodel (a crystal dragon), Smargad (an emerald dragon), Charisma (a sapphire dragon), and Tithonnas (a topaz dragon). Sardior once had a sixth thane, Seradess, (an obsidian dragon), but he destroyed her and banished the obsidian dragons from his court. Even his own clergy didn't know the exact reason behind this decision.

Also, just to note some other notes about him

Sardior's demesne was a huge floating castle named the Ruby Palace, which orbited the world and always lay in the shadows from the sun. On the nights it was seen, viewers often mistook it for a small red moon.
Periodically, Sardior moved his fortress through the planes, visiting the djinni Citadel of Ice and Steel, and Uroboros, the realm of Jazirian

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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PattPlays
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Posted - 13 Aug 2020 :  01:26:01  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My first reaction to that destroyed and banished event is me thinking someone failed to pull their weight and lead to the failed targeting of their blast out into the sky, hitting the planet of the air dragons instead of the intended target. Would that be a sabotage that an obsidian dragon would attempt to accomplish?

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:


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sleyvas
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USA
11220 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2020 :  12:20:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the obsidian dragon, we don't know WHY he killed her at all. We do know that they are neutral evil now. We know that they may be black, but they also aren't "darkness dragons", because they're inclined towards volcanos and fire.

So, the more I think on it, the more I think that perhaps the best thing we can do is accept the idea that this place DOES have some kind of cooperative magic point that works with draconic beings and any other being doing a form of epic magic, and further accept that there have been multiple instances of its use as a point in which some kind of "blast" has been hurled from Toril skyward. I kind of like the idea that perhaps instead of trying to link the formation of the tears and coliar that perhaps these are separate.

Perhaps it might be best to throw out some possibilities to give examples

First Possibility: Light is brought to the crystal sphere by Selune. We know the stars are "portals to the plane of radiance opened on the shell of the crystal sphere". So, perhaps those portals were opened via a light beam shot from this point and hitting the shell of the crystal sphere. Perhaps the great glyphs carved in the shell of the crystal sphere were engraved from here. There may be several similar points where similar acts were done, such that this is just one of many, and they may not all be on Toril either

Second Possibility: A heavenly body is set ablaze by Selune by reaching across planes, breaking off a fragment of "ever-living flame", and in her pain setting the sun on fire. This is during the start of the gods and the separation of Selune and Shar. This heavenly body becomes the sun. in order for this to have occurred, perhaps this place was used as a place for an epic ritual to open the portals to the plane of fire. Since "red dragons" didn't exist yet, perhaps it was obsidian dragons that helped, especially since said beings have ties to the elemental plane of fire. This awakening of fire portals could have just as easily have happened ON the surface of the Celestial body itself though.

Third Possibility: The Shadow Epoch. Toril is darkened by "The Night Serpent" taking the sun from the sky. An ice age starts. Most life goes extinct. So, perhaps this is when Shar is "snuffing out all light and life" in the crystal sphere. Maybe Shar shatters Coliar, and the resulting dust cloud between Toril and the sun ushers in a short ice age that kills most beings on Toril. It also kills most life on Coliar, which maybe consisted mostly of an avian race and a sauroid folk created by a primordial (possibly Ubtao). Maybe this was accomplished at the Hill of Seven Lost Gods. Maybe some other way. However, in an act of desperation, Selune "rips" a portion of her essence and hurls it through Shar. We also hear that Ubtao the Deceiver helps by "turning on his fellow primordials" and helping imprison or destroy them. So, perhaps a ritual is performed at the Hill of Seven Lost Gods. It pulls radiant energy from one moon, and redirects this energy at a black moon of ice and crystal in orbit around Toril. These become the ORIGINAL tears of Selune. This blast also "etches" a new constellation on the crystal sphere, a constellation of seven Stars related to Mystryl (and later Mystra) (note, seven stars, seven lost gods on the seven hills). When a new moon passes through this constellation, in modern times this has become known as "the night of Myrkul's eye", and its a time of powerful death magic (see dungeon #73). So, perhaps at this point, some being (possibly Ubtao the Deceiver) worked with Selune to enact revenge for the destruction of Coliar. They entrap the Night Serpent and six other powerful primordials at the Hills of Seven Lost Gods. One such primordial entity is perhaps Moander. Another such primordial entity is perhaps Pandorym (of which Entropy is a component). Another such primordial entity is the Night Serpent. Another such primordial entity might be Ghaunadaur. Another such primordial entity is perhaps a draconic entity Asgorath/Asgoroth the World Shaper (also known as Io), though this could be an aspect of the World Serpent instead and it reacted as a result of the Primordial's release.

Fourth Possibility: The Sarrukh empire rises and falls, and the empire of Okoth discovers the Athora. The Batrachi empire rises, above Okoth's ruins in Kolophoon, where they too begin study of the Athora. Another batrachi empire of Zhoukhoudien forms to the west and a war starts with the titans of Annam's Brood. Zhoukhoudien discovers the Hill of Seven Lost Gods, and he foolishly releases the primordials. Perhaps even these batrachi become avatars for these beings. Perhaps one of these batrachi becomes/binds with Hargut of the Gray Pestilence (see Haask, Voice of Hargut, in relation to the Jathiman dagger and the rise of the dark three). Moander infects Ourobouros, forcing it to fragment. Asgoroth sets fire to an ice moon filled with frozen dragon eggs, which rain down upon Toril in the Tearfall. Perhaps Ao twins the world into Abeir and Toril. Perhaps the fragmenting of the World Serpent causes the "twinning" of Abeir and Toril. Perhaps even multiple worlds are created (including earth), but people only KNOW of Abeir and Toril.

Fifth Possibility: The elves uncover a similar place of powerful magic in the icy north. Perhaps its where a fragment of the ice moon fell to earth. Perhaps it has ties to Ulutiu and his ice necklace. Perhaps both. Perhaps its a place of the lost Aearee empire that rose up after the Tearfall, and the Aearee empire teaches the avariel elves to harness the magic. In the end, the avarield enact a ritual that involves a comet that will come to be called "The King Killer Star". Why they choose this comet is unknown, but perhaps it holds a portion of the moon that once held the dragon eggs, and it was the destruction of said moon that turned it into a comet. Later, the elves come across a similar place of power with the Hill of Seven Lost Gods. They discover it has enormous power, and they draw upon it to create the Elven Sundering which creates a separated Merrobouros and draws Evermeet to Toril from they plane of Faerie. This also creates a copy of Evermeet in Abeir, but the elves use Worldfire to draw all magical energy from THAT Evermeet to make THEIR Evermeet extremely magical. Perhaps this Sundering/"corruption of the world" involved Moander tricking the elves and freeing him. Perhaps they drew upon the power of "the World Shaper" in order to make the changes.

Sixth Possibility: The creation of new godsflesh…. also known as the creation of the being known as Alias. Following this act, merely a year later, Ao kicks all gods out of heaven. Why? Because perhaps something involved with this act has kicked off what will come in the form of the worlds colliding during the spellplague. Why do I call her new godsflesh? She is literally immortal, unaging. This act of immortal creation involves the sacrifice of the soul of a sauroid creature, Dragonbait, but his soul is only splintered. We also find out that Alias is not the ONLY creation created, as many more bodies were created by Phalse, an aberration like creature that somewhat resembles a beholder whose eye stalks end in mouths (possibly having ties to Leira and/or Savras?). Could these Alias clones (which were given false memories) have been the bodies that some of the gods inhabited during the ToT? I find it particularly interesting that Alias had a severe distrust of gods.

This thought process has put in my head questions about the groups behind the creation of Alias, and whether those organizations don't have deeper ties to a primordial being that the lesser members don't know about. We already know that two beings involved (Moander and Phalse) were aberrant beings of a sort. We also know that it involved a lich (perhaps with ties to a death god, such as Jergal, especially given his sign of 3 rings?), the Fire Knives (perhaps there is some tie to a fire entity at the high end that people don't know about? Perhaps even ties to the Jathiman dagger which is a dagger meant to kill the divine?),

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Aug 2020 15:20:09
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 13 Aug 2020 :  20:17:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


This thought process has put in my head questions about the groups behind the creation of Alias, and whether those organizations don't have deeper ties to a primordial being that the lesser members don't know about. We already know that two beings involved (Moander and Phalse) were aberrant beings of a sort. We also know that it involved a lich (perhaps with ties to a death god, such as Jergal, especially given his sign of 3 rings?), the Fire Knives (perhaps there is some tie to a fire entity at the high end that people don't know about? Perhaps even ties to the Jathiman dagger which is a dagger meant to kill the divine?),



I'm disinclined to think this was the case. Not only do I not see any reason to assume anyone else was involved, there's also the fact that places of power don't always get used for the same purpose.

Ed has said the Realms has ley lines. I'd say that hill was a ley line convergence, and that's why multiple groups have used it for different reasons -- there is power there, waiting to be tapped, and that power lets them do more than they could if they were elsewhere.

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PattPlays
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Posted - 13 Aug 2020 :  20:42:09  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


This thought process has put in my head questions about the groups behind the creation of Alias, and whether those organizations don't have deeper ties to a primordial being that the lesser members don't know about. We already know that two beings involved (Moander and Phalse) were aberrant beings of a sort. We also know that it involved a lich (perhaps with ties to a death god, such as Jergal, especially given his sign of 3 rings?), the Fire Knives (perhaps there is some tie to a fire entity at the high end that people don't know about? Perhaps even ties to the Jathiman dagger which is a dagger meant to kill the divine?),



I'm disinclined to think this was the case. Not only do I not see any reason to assume anyone else was involved, there's also the fact that places of power don't always get used for the same purpose.

Ed has said the Realms has ley lines. I'd say that hill was a ley line convergence, and that's why multiple groups have used it for different reasons -- there is power there, waiting to be tapped, and that power lets them do more than they could if they were elsewhere.



Have these leylines been left up to DM's since the dawn of the setting or has there ever been any information about specifics for Toril's leylines? I would assume the former.

Also- those are six awe-striking ideas. I wonder if the seventh theory will bring it all together.

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:


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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 13 Aug 2020 :  22:50:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's nothing that's been published; we only know it from comments made here.

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
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Bit of a thread resurrection here. Looking at the dragon coast and noticed some interesting things that it would appear everyone else also noticed as well.

Dragons are very concentrated in this region for some reason. Gem dragons as well. We have the dragon laser and a ton of dragons.

Evil also seems to be attracted here, and undeath (vampires, undead giants, etc). Even some great ancient evils like Dagon.

I'm thinking of tying it all together somehow and bear with me.

So batrachi summon asgorath to fight the likes of Omu and for some reason asgorath blasts a nearby ice moon into toril surface.

As always not taking that literally I have a thought and that thought is stellar dragons. What if the batrachi did literally summon the most powerful being they could contact in toril and that most powerful being was asgorath who also happened to be a child stellar dragon in its egg in orbit above toril. The egg smashes into toril and creates the sea of fallen stars and the foetal asgorath inside, his essence causes the creation and proliferation of draco forms.

The reason I'm thinking above is if asgorath was an actual dragon blasting an ice moon, where is he now, plus the dragon creation myths all involve someone or something killing Io/asgorath and using his fallen body to make dragons. If asgorath were a foetus inside the crystal egg gotha then it fulfills all the myths somehow.
Also the dragon laser supposedly blasts an asteroid to bits and is fired at the hill of seven lost gods, but what if they used the same spot as the batrachi summoned asgorath and used the same magic but in reverse and so actually moved another rock into the king killer star in reverse how th batrachi did. Adds consistency to past events and reuse of magic which seems more believable to me.

More to follow.

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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 21 Nov 2021 :  20:20:11  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Since we're resurrecting, just some notes that pop in my head to go along with some newer lore

On the "Ice Moon" Zotha, it should be noted that earlier references are that Asgorath uses its breath on a "crystal sun". This sun shatters, and the shards of it kill Asgorath, but the result is the tearfall and the dropping of dragon eggs from the sky. So, seeing where you're going in the above, I would probably spin it a little different. Maybe these red dragon egss are entrapped within an ever regenerating sphere of ice in orbit, as a means to contain them so they aren't birthed. Within the sphere, some of the dragons are "warding away the cold" using their fire breath and maybe even fire magics, but they can't get out. This creates a "fire within the ice" look ..... or a crystal sun.... in orbit above the planet.


So, in that idea, Asgorath may fly up there to free its brethren, but having to give its life in order to do so. To note, the "fiery" dragons that might be in containment could be several kinds.... golds, reds, and obsidian all are concerned with fire. Alternatively or additionally, some of the dragons may have been more involved with radiance than fire.

To go along with this idea, we are told that in Shyr on Abeir there is Karshimis the primordial tyrant, and he lives in "County Sized Citadel of Burning Ice"..... so perhaps a portion of the "ice moon"/"crystal sun" fell to earth. It was repurposed into building a fortress for a primordial?

from 4e FRCG
Other such structures are rumoured to exist, such as the county-sized citadel of burning ice that brooded over the savage continent of Shyr to the east, before the Blue Breath of Change altered the world forever and Shyr faded to obscurity. What has become of Shyr and its primordial despot Karshimis is unknown and perhaps unknowable.

Also, IF Zotha is a "being of ice" and IF he is related to Ulutiu.... there might be a relation in all of this to giantkind as well and the fight between Annam and Ulutiu.... a bit of a stretch though. For instance, perhaps the "Hidden Realm" that Annam went to is Abeir, a few thousand years after the tearfall/sundering, and perhaps even he took up a name like "Karshimis" and began pushing dragons off the continent of Shyr on Abeir. Maybe he took to breeding a new race of genasi whom he ruled over. Or maybe he's the "rumored primordial" that's been in the 2 mile high "fang" known as Dawn Titan's Spire in Laerakond, possibly having repurposed say a fang of Asgorath.


So, Fizban's treasury of dragons does have some hints to some of these ideas as well that might not be immediately apparent to some

For instance, the idea of the hidecarved dragons can be directly tied to this idea in The Grand History of the Realms and the "dragon laser"

The following transcript is a translation of some Draconic runes inscribed on the scaled corpse of Kisonraathiisar, which was
hidden in a secret subbasement below Castle Thalavar in the city of Westgate.

For five days I have struggled against these eldritch bonds, but I have been unable to move a muscle thanks to my tormentor, Saldrinar—a mewling meat wizard from the South. Each day, another of his infernal spells is triggered by the previous one, granting me a brief moment of agonizing lucidity before I lapse back into a timeless sleep. I suspect that I can last no more than another day or two, but knowing that my time is nigh, I try to use these brief moments to manifest my last thoughts as runes upon my scales.

While Saldrinar’s two-legged ants swarm across my kingdom and slaughter the tribes of dragonkin that I have carefully nurtured into stewards of my demesne, I see Null’s dull claws inexorably crushing the future that I had hoped to create.



Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 21 Nov 2021 22:19:34
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 21 Nov 2021 :  22:20:48  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I was actually trying to link it more to the apocryphal legend in the draconomicon 2e.

Tear fall happens, dracoforms appear, evolve into eodraco and then some magic transforms them into true dragons and also links them to the weave.

Dragons dont generally go into space that we know of, even dragon gods. Dragons are also not powerful enough to take on a primordial like Omu.

Stellar dragons do go in space and are 1200 ft in size as a base (they can be bigger) and they are powerful enough to destroy most things. Their breath weapon is a gravity well that sucks creatures into a black hole (sphere of annihilation) that is their stomach.

However that breath weapon doesnt tally with the legend but legends are often factually inaccurate and corrupted with many other legends and tales.

Stellar dragons also grow gems on their skin that contain ideas, gems of all different varieties.

So ice moon zotha is actually a stellar dragon egg containing a stellar dragon. Given the legends of dragons have Asgorath as the name but he ends up being confused with Io the head of the draconic pantheon I wonder if the egg didnt contain twins.

Batrachi summon Asgorotha and split the egg in half. Asgorotha and his half slam into toril and rain down blood drenched gems that hatched into dracoforms. Io and his half spin off into the cosmos and become the king killer star (comets are made of ice and the king killer star has been described as a comet).

The Hill of Lost Gods is a landing site for a major chunk of Asgorotha and becomes a weave node and a major site of significance for dragon kind.

Xymor and Nagamat do their ritual here with a bunch of other dragons to make the true dragons by imbueing themselves with Asgorothas blood, and of course it goes wrong and makes them different colours and breeds according to the gems used in the ritual, but links them all to the weave through the weave node.

I would even guess that much later some other red dragon tried to repeat or reverse the ritual Xymor and nagamat performed and ended up creating gem dragons.

The dragon coast is supposed to be crawling with dragons and I wonder about the reason. Neighbouring cormyr also has it's own dragon like mythal. That's a lot of uber dragon magic around the dragon mere.

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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
2277 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2021 :  02:09:26  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Also, IF Zotha is a "being of ice" and IF he is related to Ulutiu.... there might be a relation in all of this to giantkind as well and the fight between Annam and Ulutiu.... a bit of a stretch though. For instance, perhaps the "Hidden Realm" that Annam went to is Abeir, a few thousand years after the tearfall/sundering, and perhaps even he took up a name like "Karshimis" and began pushing dragons off the continent of Shyr on Abeir. Maybe he took to breeding a new race of genasi whom he ruled over. Or maybe he's the "rumored primordial" that's been in the 2 mile high "fang" known as Dawn Titan's Spire in Laerakond, possibly having repurposed say a fang of Asgorath.



Last year Ed revealed some info about Zotha, from the perspective of lore compiled a few dragons followers of Asgorath. Acording to these lore, Zotha is not a being made of ice in these tales, but actually something akin a manta ray. Seens to be that he is the precursor of many races that later would be known as "aberrantions" or are related to the Far Realm, or at least according to the followers of Asgorath.

I won't be surprised if Zotha was actually some "elder evil".

https://web.archive.org/web/20210516212012/https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1199108030299885568


quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Xymor and Nagamat do their ritual here with a bunch of other dragons to make the true dragons by imbueing themselves with Asgorothas blood, and of course it goes wrong and makes them different colours and breeds according to the gems used in the ritual, but links them all to the weave through the weave node.

I would even guess that much later some other red dragon tried to repeat or reverse the ritual Xymor and nagamat performed and ended up creating gem dragons.

The dragon coast is supposed to be crawling with dragons and I wonder about the reason. Neighbouring cormyr also has it's own dragon like mythal. That's a lot of uber dragon magic around the dragon mere.



I don't think dragons are actually tied to the Weave (or at least, to Mystra's Weave). The book only says that dragons are tied to the Material Plane, and get their powers from that connection (something that is also said in Fizban's). I understand this as that dragons don't depend on the Weave and can even bypass Mystra if needed, tho perhaps only the most powerful dragons would dare to do that.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 22 Nov 2021 :  06:45:05  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I shall have to look up this zotha thing, holds interesting parallels with the dragon creation myth and almost on it's own proves that these myths should never be taken as fact because they get corrupted and mixed with other tales.

Regarding fizbans treasury of dragons it is in fact totally wrong regarding dragons being more closely tied to the weave, and I dont think anyone bothers with the new lore trumps old.

Dragons have been said to be more closely tied to the weave in multiple sources (along with elves) and to my mind this is manifest by their innate casting ability, they can cast spells from the weave without any schooling, and every one of them can do it.

Yes dragons can bypass the weave, so can everyone on toril, just dont use the weave and use raw magic instead. But you have to be aware that such a possibility exists, and only the most ancient of races and individuals would know of this, dragons being one of them. But why use raw magic except in the most dire of circumstances (like trying to destroy the king killer star where you would need magic without limits).


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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 22 Nov 2021 :  13:51:30  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary DallisonRegarding fizbans treasury of dragons it is in fact totally wrong regarding dragons being more closely tied to the weave, and I dont think anyone bothers with the new lore trumps old.


Well, I was saying that Fizban's is just repeating some stuff that was published in the 2e Draconomicon, including that bit about dragons tied directly to the Material Plane. So, its more a case of "the new bringing back the old".

As for dragons being tied to the Weave, I guess this is said in 3e sources?

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
But why use raw magic except in the most dire of circumstances


Anything to escape the tyranny of Mystra, that is something that a being so full of himself (like a dragon) would do instinctively.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 22 Nov 2021 13:53:18
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 22 Nov 2021 :  14:13:49  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the tyranny of Mystra is more of an interpretation on our part as outsiders. Ed has said repeatedly that Mystra almost never stops people using the weave, and there are many thousands of spells stored in it for people to do whatever they might desire.

The weave is cheap, easy, and far less dangerous to use than raw magic. Raw magic can and will kill users for a simple mistake and sometimes kill them when no mistake is made because it burns beings from the inside.

If Mystra extracts no price for the use of her weave and merely asks that people play nicely with it and use what is available (not trying to access the dangerous and hidden magics) then one can hardly perceive her as a tyrant.

That being said i view Mystra and the Weave as a deliberately created monopoly at the expense of many other types of magic, and such a monopoly can only be detrimental in the long run (especially when the weave / windows keeps going out of warranty and being replaced)

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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 22 Nov 2021 :  14:47:02  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I think the tyranny of Mystra is more of an interpretation on our part as outsiders. Ed has said repeatedly that Mystra almost never stops people using the weave, and there are many thousands of spells stored in it for people to do whatever they might desire.



Perhaps. But is something a dragon, a being that believes the world and all in it is his by birthright, would think. Why pay deference to some human god when you can use it by yourself on in your own terms?

And in the case of dragons, being intrinsically linked to the Material Plane perhaps mean they have a wsy to avoid the risks of using Raw magic directly?

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
If Mystra extracts no price for the use of her weave and merely asks that people play nicely with it and use what is available (not trying to access the dangerous and hidden magics) then one can hardly perceive her as a tyrant.



As someone who lives next door to an actual, real life tyranny, I can assure you that this is something that depends on who you ask.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 22 Nov 2021 :  17:51:25  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You have a point, but again its using our knowledge and not theirs.

Dragons have had innate spellcasting since long before mystra existed, so if someone were to say all magic comes from mystra they would eat them and ignore their words because dragons have had magic for 30000 years. They dont know that their innate spellcasting uses the weave because at the dawn of their species their ancestors linked them and all their descendants to a weave node in order to grant all these awesome spell like abilities and innate spellcasting that they enjoy.

I believe the quote about dragons being closely linked to the weave comes from cormanthyr. Most people regard draconomicon 2e as apocryphal at worst and very unreliable at best (on a par with the netheril boxed set). I've even seen Eric Boyd say to ignore a piece of lore In that book and Eric's motto is always try to include every piece of lore. So for me cormanthyr is the better quality realmslore and beats Fizban (my used toilet paper beats Fizban) and Draconomicon 2e.

However the two sentences are not incompatible. Being closely tied to the material plane is very vague. Nothing is ever tied to matter as that is solid and immutable. Being tied to a plane often refers to the energy withing it.
The material plane has two fairly unique energies associated with it. Magic and life/positive energy. The two are cooperative In Ed's FR almost to the point that they cannot be separated.
The weave is that magical life energy tamed into a constant, reliable, and safe form such that beings can link themselves closely to it. I suspect trying to do the same to raw magic would result in squishiness of an explosive nature.

So In Toril, being closely tied to the material plane means being closely tied to the weave.


Just my thoughts though, as divergent and heretical as they are

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 22 Nov 2021 :  18:32:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I think the tyranny of Mystra is more of an interpretation on our part as outsiders. Ed has said repeatedly that Mystra almost never stops people using the weave, and there are many thousands of spells stored in it for people to do whatever they might desire.



Perhaps. But is something a dragon, a being that believes the world and all in it is his by birthright, would think. Why pay deference to some human god when you can use it by yourself on in your own terms?




But it's also been established that paying deference to Mystra to be able to use the Weave is not required. A lot of wizards don't pay deference to her, especially non-human ones.

Personally, I would just say that dragons have a deeper connection to magic, in general, and this deeper connection mitigates the need to use the Weave.

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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 22 Nov 2021 :  19:33:14  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I think the tyranny of Mystra is more of an interpretation on our part as outsiders. Ed has said repeatedly that Mystra almost never stops people using the weave, and there are many thousands of spells stored in it for people to do whatever they might desire.



Perhaps. But is something a dragon, a being that believes the world and all in it is his by birthright, would think. Why pay deference to some human god when you can use it by yourself on in your own terms?




But it's also been established that paying deference to Mystra to be able to use the Weave is not required. A lot of wizards don't pay deference to her, especially non-human ones.

Personally, I would just say that dragons have a deeper connection to magic, in general, and this deeper connection mitigates the need to use the Weave.



I think of this situation kind of as a Krynnish Paladine / Fizban the Fabulous relationship. Mystra is a goddess. Not a human. She has a human face. She likely has other faces as well. We just don't know how the dragons see her dragon face.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 23 Nov 2021 :  00:52:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I think the tyranny of Mystra is more of an interpretation on our part as outsiders. Ed has said repeatedly that Mystra almost never stops people using the weave, and there are many thousands of spells stored in it for people to do whatever they might desire.



Perhaps. But is something a dragon, a being that believes the world and all in it is his by birthright, would think. Why pay deference to some human god when you can use it by yourself on in your own terms?




But it's also been established that paying deference to Mystra to be able to use the Weave is not required. A lot of wizards don't pay deference to her, especially non-human ones.

Personally, I would just say that dragons have a deeper connection to magic, in general, and this deeper connection mitigates the need to use the Weave.



I think of this situation kind of as a Krynnish Paladine / Fizban the Fabulous relationship. Mystra is a goddess. Not a human. She has a human face. She likely has other faces as well. We just don't know how the dragons see her dragon face.



As Kereska the Wonderbringer...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 23 Nov 2021 :  01:04:41  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I asked Ed once about this, and he considers Kereska as a different being than Mystra.

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
6026 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2021 :  06:43:28  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As an aside, has anyone ever looked at just how much lore there is on Westgate. I've searched every reference I can find in my archive and have over 1mb of text, that is more than some entire regions get.

Oh and does anyone know if the hill of thorns / fangs is the same as the hill of lost souls. I hope it is, or at least an extension of it.

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