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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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36141 Posts

Posted - 27 Jun 2020 :  18:42:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We've seen your posts. Even if they're not protagonists or antagonists, you still voice your dislike of them and do everything you can to pretend they don't exist.

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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1122 Posts

Posted - 27 Jun 2020 :  18:50:06  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Depends, really, on how they are used. Maybe the original dwarf prayed to Moradin and Moradin didn't think the dwarf worthy enough for the gift. The dwarf then prayed to Abbathor so Abbathor twisted it into a curse. Moradin had been watching (since the dwarf had already gotten his attention) and decided to use this as a teaching moment so he gave the dwarf an out once the dwarf realized it was a curse: A prophesy that the curse would be lifted when a dwarf of his line had named a drow his best friend, had a human as his offspring, taught an enemy everything he knew, and reclaimed his home. Bruenor may not even know about that but it gave his ancestors hope and it could be that he would only know of it when a priest of Moradin showed up and said "Behold! The great wisdom of Moradin makes itself known." The losing the desire to create anything again is gone but the gift at making great items remains. That seems like something a god would do and also gives the gods that air of mystery while also putting a framework around seeming random events.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6026 Posts

Posted - 27 Jun 2020 :  19:09:59  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The moradin and abbathor thing sounds plausible for either/both gods, but what lore did it add to the realms itself, any new characters or history or items.

In order to beat the gods curse you need another god. Whereas the curse of a living creature can be broken by a suitable quest, by fulfilling whatever contract was made originally or by bargaining with more powerful individuals. All of this could add to the realms itself, some great quest, some new item, some powerful new antagonist.

Beating the god requires a more powerful god and just leads to that power creep problem that resulted in Ao.

I like the gods in the realms, I have detailed more on their churches than most other organisations, they provide relics, people, power, motivation. But when a god turns up and solves or causes a problem directly it adds very little to the realms itself which has always been about real people.

Name your favourite realms events. Time of Troubles many people hated because of the gods (some loved it but it divided the fanbase). Who loved the lolth going silent and the killing of selvetarm, vhaeraun, eilistraee, and the destruction of loads of drow cities without any detail. Who loved Shar doing so much evil in the realms. Who loved the bit where cyric killed mystra and caused the spellplague.


Whereas, who liked or found interesting the death of azoun and the war in cormyr. Who was interested in the manshoon wars or the Harper schism. If you didn't like these events did you hate them so much that you ignored them completely (because many ignored the god events completely or wish they had never happened).

A player can take part in the manshoon wars or the Harper schism, what can he do about cyric killing mystra and helm marrying whoever.

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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1122 Posts

Posted - 27 Jun 2020 :  19:54:18  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, I am just spit-balling. If desired, the Moradin/Abbathor thing could be filled out with the members of Bruenor's line, the item(s) that each of them made, and maybe even some events where they tried to "move the prophesy along" by marrying a human or being killed because they thought they had found a drow they could trust. You asked for suggestions so this is what popped into my head.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6026 Posts

Posted - 27 Jun 2020 :  22:53:44  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I did ask, and you gave a good suggestion, I'm just setting out the limitations I like to work under, my response was more towards Wooly.

I will be looking for any connection between abbathor and the likes of ammarindar, delzoun, oghrann, and any other dwarven state in the realms because while a hag is most likely able to provide the gift/curse to a dwarf I do not think any self respecting dwarf would accept such a thing from a hag. However he might accept help from a priest of abbathor (even a disguised being posing as a priest) if all other avenues of help were exhausted.

It may be that the original bruenor battlehammer was to prideful to be given divine aid in the final days of his people and so feeling he had been abandoned he turned to abbathor. The current bruenor is very proud and it leads him astray several times.

I vaguely recall a group of abbathor worshippers near the labyrinth in the underdark. It's a growing possibility.

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3715 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2020 :  00:18:28  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Slightly related, I found the Novel Index that was started on the WoTC boards. A lot of it wasn't indexed it seems like, and only the basic things in the first post, but it's something for a couple of locations and characters.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090430101828/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1062902

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36141 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2020 :  03:10:21  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I like the gods in the realms, I have detailed more on their churches than most other organisations, they provide relics, people, power, motivation. But when a god turns up and solves or causes a problem directly it adds very little to the realms itself which has always been about real people.



And yet, despite this one claim to like the gods, you constantly bitch about every single mention of them and go out of your way to remove them from everything you possibly can.

Religion is a very real thing in the Realms. Even without gods directly turning up (which is quite rare, despite your assertions otherwise), there is still a lot that happens due to divine influence -- usually, people acting on behalf of the gods they worship, or in ways they think their deity will want. Your constant efforts to remove everything divine is robbing the setting of one of the things that makes things happen.

You can say the Realms is about people, but it's more accurate to say that the Realms is about its characters. Human, elf, dwarf, orc, lich, dragon -- and deity. It's all one huge, complex mix of elements. Each of those elements influences others in countless, ever-changing ways. It's a melting pot of motivations and causes and effects and every taste is going to contain a different combination of flavors.

The gods of the Realms are as much a part of the setting as any mortal characters are. We knew about them before we knew about most of the mortal characters of the setting -- because they are an intrinsic part of it.

Constantly trying to ignore them or write them out doesn't add to the setting -- it detracts from it.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6026 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2020 :  14:49:24  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Streams of Silver (1356 DR)

Shimmergloom
Shadow dragon, part of an attack on dwarves, Shimmergloom devoured the bulk of the dwarven army that fought its allies?.
Now attended by a host of slaves, given regular sacrifices.
Referred to as a demon spawned dragon by the dwarves of Mithril Hall. Shimmergloom broke open the walls of the Hall of Dumathoin, breached many other dwarven defences and slew 9/10 of all dwarves.
Duergar servants
Shadow Hound servants.
When Mithril Hall fell, Shimmergloom slew the majority of dwarves in the mines but could not finish the job as many dwarves fled to the western halls of the upper levels where Shimmergloom could not fit.
A powerful entity on the shadow plane (lord???) before coming to Mithril Hall (why???)
Supposedly slain by the companions, fell burning into the depths of Garumn’s Gorge with Bruenor atop his back.


Icewind Dale
Barren tundra
Wind always blows from the east
Once past the Spine of the World its a hundred miles or so to Luskan
Fender Mallot – one of the dwarves of Icewind Dale, best fighter in Icewind Dale (after Bruenor)
Grollo – one of the dwarves of Icewind Dale


The Ten Towns
Right of Possession – anything left abandoned for more than a week can be claimed by the next to find it.


Bruenor Battlehammer
Red hair
Notched axe
Shield emblazoned with a foaming mug
Horned helm, dented a lot


Artemis Entreri
Best assassin in Faerun
Tracked Regis the halfling since he fled Calimport, all the way to the Ten Towns of Icewind Dale.
Carries a jewelled dagger


Regis
Halfling thief, served Pasha Pook in Calimport
Kept a signet ring that identified him as a thief in Pasha Pook’s service.
Owns a ruby pendant that can implant suggestions. Victims of the suggestion become angry after a short time.


Cattie-Brie
Auburn hair, blue eyes, beautiful
Orphaned by a goblin raid a dozen years ago, adopted by Bruenor Battlehammer.


Luskan
The City of Sails
Home to 15000 people
Encompassed by a wall with guard towers at regular intervals.
Gates are open for merchants, regular travelers are turned away
Dislikes non humans, including dwarves and elves.
Nightkeepers man the gates after sunset. Daykeepers man the gates after dawn.
Jierdan, guard at the Northgate of Luskan, accompanied Sydney and Entreri to look for Drizzt and companions. Stabbed in the back by Entreri
The merchants of Luskan pay the wage of the guards of Luskan.
Last lane (called Half Moon Street before the piers along the north wall by the docks is where the Cutlass lies, the Cutlass is an inn. It is a place for thieves, criminals, and vagabonds.
Luskan’s streets tightly packed with 3 story buildings, people want to stay safe within the city walls so build up rather than outward.
Dock section is the roughest part of the city Perpetual fog blows in from the sea to cover the alleys and streets.
Rat Alley, a street in Luskan, just off the piers, parallel to the sea. Warehouses on both sides. Whisper (a young woman) can be contacted in Rat Alley. Whisper is a fence of information (including maps, has a map with Mithril Hall on it). Stabbed in the back by Artemis Entreri
City code states that travelers must leave their horses with the stables inside the wall.

Hosttower Arcane
Sydney, 25 years old, not pretty, lesser mage in the hosttower arcane, uses Jierdan (guard) as a contact to monitor people coming into Luskan. Sydney serves under Dendybar the Mottled. Keeps Harkle Harpell (in Longsaddle) as a contact pretending to like him, they communicate through scrying devices (magic mirror, etc)
Dendybar the Mottled, Master of the North Spire, uses Jierden as a contact and Bok as his guardian against other rival wizards.
The Hosttower Arcane secretly controls all activity in the city of Luskan. Captains of the guard are only appointed with consent from the Hosttower
The Hosttower Arcane has one of the finest conjuring rooms in the North.
Morkai the Red created the conjuration room in the North Tower of the the Hosttower. Morkai the Red was once the Master of the North Spire (before Dendybar the Mottled arranged for his murder)
Trial of Succession used to choose new masters of the spire (when previous masters are dead or no longer capable)
Dendybar is scared that Drizzt wants to bring the Crystal Shard to the Drow and start an uprising of Drow against the surface.
Bok, a flesh golem made by Dendybar the Mottled


The Crags
Wild and orc filled
A narrow stretch of broken mounds and rolling hills.
Uthgardt ancestor mound in the Crags
3 days ride can cross the Crags.

Sky Pony Tribe
Uthgardt barbarians, warriors paint their cheeks white, single braid in their hair, worship Tempus and Uthgar. Carrying weapons near the ancestor mound is punishable by death.
Valric “High Eye”, shaman of the Sky Ponies. Wears an eye patch with a large green gemstones sewn into it.
Jerek Wolfslayer, chief of the Sky Ponies
Torlin son of Jerek, largest and strongest warrior, never before defeated, slain by being transformed into the Sky Pony by Valric
Pegasus is the sacred totem of the Sky Ponies
Shaman can bestow part of the spirit totem to their warriors. The spirit totem animal itself can also possess a warrior, morphing him into a half human, half animal hybrid.


Longsaddle
Home of the Harpells
Protected by Longriders that patrol the roads in groups of 5 mounted men.
Ivy mansion resides just north of the town on a hill, it is the home of the Harpells and is comprised of three buildings on a hillock. Two are farm buildings (one houses experimental animals), the third is a building full of sharp angles and dozens of spires and windows everywhere (the great house), filled with scrying rooms, conjuring rooms, alchemy rooms, meditation chambers.
A force barrier protects the entire outer edge of Ivy Mansion. Roads and fences are painted onto the wall to look real. Gaps exist in the wall with illusory fences in place.
All animals entering Ivy Mansion are shrunk to the size of cats.
Regweld Harpell, fat wizard with some bad luck in magical experiments (has made him grumpy and unhelpful)
Harkle Harpell – contact with Sydney in the Hosttower Arcane.
Chardin Harpell, incredibly old, once a great wizard, he made the stream of Ivy Mansion flow up the hill. For 20 years he has been obsessed with the invisibility field under the bridge (everything under the bridge is invisible except to things under the bridge and vice versa – may be a tear in reality).
To get to the Ivy Mansion you must pass under the bridge (reverse gravity field) that crosses the stream flowing up the hill.
DelRoy Harpell, eldest Harpell in Longsaddle at the moment. Former adventurer. Body is failing.
Matherly Harpell, accidentally turned himself into a stone statue when mixing potions
Bidderdoo Harpell, second cousing to Harkle Harpell, turned himself into a dog while mixing potions.
To leave Ivy Mansion one must pass over the bridge that crosses the stream flowing up the hill.
The Fuzzy Quarterstaff, the visitors inn at Ivy mansion, a scrying gemstone on each table is used to order food and drinks, magical prestidigitation provides entertainment, floating forcefields deliver drinks and food to the table. Interesting patrons are allowed to stay for free if they provide information, tales, riddles, etc.


Mithril Hall
Known as “the mine where silver rivers run”
Founded after Citadel Adbar (which was old when Mithril Hall was settled)
The Hall of Dumathoin, a large decorated chamber used to display the greatest works of smithing art to future generations of Clan Battlehammer.
Less than 3 generations of dwarves ever lived in Mithril Hall
Rarely did they let anyone visit Mithril Hall. The dwarves emerged in the dark of night via a complicated series of tunnels and a secret and intricate chain of dwarven agents to bring goods to market.
Settlestone was used as part of the secret trail to bring Mithril goods to market.
King Garumn – King of Mithril Hall, Bruenor’s grandfather, died fighting Duergar as the last of Clan Battlehammer escaped.
King Elmor – King of Settlestone in the time of King Garumn
Settlestone – known as Dwarvendarrow to the dwarves. Lay north of Nesme and the Evermoors on the southernmost peak of the southernmost spur of the Spine of the World. Abandoned for more than 100 years. Constructed of great slabs of stone laid to form dwellings.
Mithril Hall lies in Keepers Dale, a valley situated between several mountains. Can be accessed only by carved steps running down the side of a cliff.
Keepers Dale entrance guarded by huge stone monoliths, they were ancient even before the dwarves ever founded Mithril Hall. A secret door in the mountain side allows entry into Mithril Hall, a password must be spoken to open the door, the password expires after a time, striking the door with a magical weapon will also open the door.
Mithril Hall abandoned around 200 years ago.
Duergar fought the dwarves of Mithril Hall. A great battle fought at the entrance to Mithril Hall between the Duergar and the fleeing Clan Battlehammer. King Garumn and Bangor Battlehammer fell covering the retreat, the Duergar did not return to loot the dead (Garumn laid a curse upon the place/Duergar)
Bangor, Bruenor’s father, died fighting Duergar as the last of Clan Battlehammer escaped
Bruenor – the name of a hero of Clan Battlehammer (founder perhaps???) King Garumn died bearing the weapons and armour of Bruenor (magic relics???), mithril armour, a golden shield (deflects magic), a mithril axe, a jewelled mithril helmet (the crown of the king of Mithril Hall).
Bruenor claims the title of 8th King of Mithril Hall.
The top level of Mithril Hall was trapped and contained habitable chambers for King Elmor and the dwarves from Settlestone when they came to collect works for market.
Shadows (the monster) haunt the halls of Mithril Hall. Shadows used to ally with the drow of Menzoberranzan.
Centre of the top level is a series of 10 rooms with 10 doors, each door can be bolted from the other side to prevent exit. The centre room has a trapdoor leading to a cubby hole for resting.
Garumn’s Gorge (now Shimmergloom’s Run), lies beyond the Entrance Hall and the habitable areas and the defensive alcove, a one way exit from Mithril Hall lies at the end of the Gorge over the bridge, as well as stairs leading further down into the mines.
The Halls of Gathering, a meeting place where the dwarves of Clan Battlehammer would assemble to meet visitors or hear the words of King Garumn. On the top level, before Garumn’s Gorge. The Halls of Gathering had many concealed passages to the lower levels.
The Hall of Dumathoin on the top level, accessed from the Halls of Gathering. Holds all the great crafting works of the dwarves as well as any gifts from friends of the dwarves. The metal doors are magically sealed to only allow those of Clan Battlehammer entry and it is guarded by a hundred or more traps. The walls had been breached and the treasures despoiled by the duergar.
Taulmaril the Heartseeker, a bow crafted by Lady Anariel “Sister of Faerun”, a longbow (of elven make???), undamaged by 200 years (magic???). The quiver replenishes arrows when used, the bow can fire arrows into solid stone (fire damage???)
The Undercity of Mithril Hall. Lies atop the mines, with one side of the wide gorge carved to hold huge steps leading right down to the gorge bottom, with rows of doors (and dwellings) carved into the gorge-side.
At the bottom of the gorge lies the central forges of Mithril Hall, hot enough to melt mithril ore from the stone.


Evermoors
Known as the Trollmoors
Everyone salutes the bravery of Nesme for keeping the trade route along the Surbrin open.
Prone to violent weather and storms (lots of rain and lightning) rolling down from the Spine of the World.
Riders of Nesme venture into the Evermoors each spring and light long lines of fires to keep the monsters away from the borders of the town.
Huge acid spitting worm, decades old, sleeps in the riverbed beside the moors.


Griffon Tribe
Uthgardt barbarians
Worship at Shining White ancestor mound

Other Lore
King Harbromm and the dwarves of Citadel Adbar went looking for Mithril Hall (west of Silverymoon) a few years ago, but came back convinced it was lost or destroyed.
Old Night and the Heralds Holdfast has not entertained visitors (except for Alustriel and a few select scholars) for decades
Bausin saumine, arcane words for to open doors

Silverymoon
Inn of Wayward Sages, near the centre of the city.
Mizzen, wizard of the Second School of Knowledge
Gavin, one of the Knights of Silver
Potion of memory recall, often used by elves

Heralds Holdfast
A squat stone tower in a small dell against a steep hill. The tower appears ruined
Old Night, an ancient looking man with skin like wooden (his face had not hollowed)
The Chamber of Man, the largest chamber in Heralds Holdfast (except for the library), filled with tapestries and weapons and armour from the ancient history of the kingdoms of humans.
Contains the greatest library in the North.
Book of Mithril Hall written in High Dwarven (a script nearly lost in the Realms today)
The Chamber of Dwarves
Magical wards prevent people from approaching (were they lowered to allow Drizzt and companions through, do they only affect evil people, did Drizzt carry a key to the wards???)

Duergar
Serve Shimmergloom
Helped slaughter the dwarves of Mithril Hall
Live in the mines (ignoring the Top level)
Clan Bukbukken
Mucknuggle, duergar of Clan Bukbukken

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6026 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2020 :  15:03:42  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Getting really tired of the fight scenes now. The monster has an attack and nearly kills the party, then they all attack it at once with renewed vigour and it just sits there and gets pummeled to death. The dragon, the worm, Bok (although it was a stupid golem so thats allowed).



One thing that bothered me about Mithril Hall's history. Its supposed to be an accident that the dwarves stumbled upon the dragon by digging too deep and presumably discovering a rift to the Plane of Shadow. Shimmergloom then forces his way through and slaughters 9/10s of the dwarves of Mithril Hall and the Duergar finish off the rest.

The issue is that at the start it states that Shimmergloom played his part in the fall of Mithril Hall, killing the bulk of Mithril Hall's army for his allies. Now presumably the Duergar are his allies, but that is not true because they are actually Shimmergloom's servants. But the Duergar did kill the rest of the dwarves in the western end of the top level (where Shimmergloom couldnt fit), so at what point where they subordinate to Shimmergloom.


I'm wondering if the fall of Mithril Hall was not actually orchestrated by some other power and these are the unnamed allies of Shimmergloom. Shimmergloom certainly rampaged through the lower levels of Mithril Hall and slew most of the dwarves, but did the duergar just happen to be there at that moment in time, or were they sent there at that exact time to finish off the dwarves Shimmergloom could not reach.

I'm initially thinking the drow of Menzoberranzan were the unnamed third party. It is implied in Crystal Shard that the drow were working with Errtu to destroy a svirfneblin community (presumably Blingdenstone) and so perhaps the Drow have been working with other powers to try and destabilise dwarven powers in the Northdark so that they can dominate.
The drow ally with Shimmergloom (who is apparently a powerful ruler of sorts in a region of the Shadow Plane) who dwells in the shadowy analogue of the mines of Mithril Hall. They send duergar mercenaries to breach the dwarven mines and allow Shimmergloom in. So when Shimmergloom is freed the duergar are already there and he enslaves them (they probably werent aware of what was to happen, they were just exploiting a lower entry into the fabled mithril mines) and then uses these duergar to finish the dwarves he can't get.


That way Mithril Hall and Blingdenstone are linked not just by Drizzt but by the drow of Menzoberranzan that are trying to destroy these powerful allied communities (i wouldnt be surprised if they were involved in the fall of Citadel Felbarr as well somehow).

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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1122 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2020 :  17:31:14  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or, it could be another group trying to counter the moves of Menzobarranzan. I am not that familar with post-2E drow events but I do seem to remember that there was a fight between Menzoberranzan and another drow city. Maybe this was the first move of their plan and Bruenor reclaiming the Halls threw a wrench into that group's plans?

Edit: Fixed horrible grammar. I obviously need more caffeine.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents

Edited by - TheIriaeban on 28 Jun 2020 17:34:29
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6026 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2020 :  17:36:08  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well that was an interesting journey through history looking for lore on Abbathor.

I found a mention of a priest in the Waterdeep 3e book.

There is a big temple on the eastern side of Anauroch that was the home of Ragflaconshen.

There is the sceptre of Drakkalor from Shanatar that was inscribed with a rune of abbathor.

There is a cult to Abbathor known as the Wyrm Cult (priests are called Noroghor i think) that is concentrated in the North and that associate themselves with dragons and other creatures that amass wealth.

Then lastly in Eric's excellent Under Illefarn Anew is Delg "Hellhorns" Dragonsteel who is a maeluth (a kind of dwarven tiefling) who was looking for his grandmothers shrine, and that shrine details there were a few worshippers of Abbathor among the dwarves of Dardath.


So these hooks led me to look up Dardath and Hunnabar which were part of the various versions of Phalorm and the Fallen Kingdom. I also noted that dwarves from Ironstar fled to Dardath (or could be found there).

So i looked up Ironstar and bam, it was located in the Frost Hills and had three mountains Firstpeak, Secondpeak, and Thirdpeak. These are all located in the same place as Mithril Hall, which was located under Fourthpeak. And Ironstar officially fell in 200 DR ish while Mithril Hall was founded around 0 DR.

Lightbulb moment, Clan Battlehammer split off from Clan Ironstar and founded Mithril Hall beneath Fourthpeak while Ironstar was falling. They made sure their new home was completely disconnected from the mines of the the realm of Ironstar (presumably mining the huge mithril lode from a new side / angle).

When the last holds of Ironstar fell, Mithril Hall survived thanks to its secrecy and defences.

The link to Abbathor already exists. I'm guessing Ironstar was founded by dwarves from Drakkalor and so included a number of followers of Abbathor. When Ironstar falls the followers of Abbathor fled to Dardath and after that Hunnabar, but there was already a number of them in Clan Battlehammer.

Gandalug was the first king of Mithril Hall, Bruenor was the 2nd, Bruenor fashioned the regalia of Mithril Hall (his helmet served as the crown) so i would be willing to bet he was the first king to be officially declared and crowned while Gandalug was Mithril Halls founder and first ruler.

Bruenor fakes his own death to go off adventuring, not exactly diligent and dutiful behaviour that you would expect from a dwarf (but entirely in keeping with the behaviour of his descendant Bruenor Battlehammer the 8th and 10th king) so it is possible Bruenor did a deal with a priest of Abbathor from Ironstar to grant him the power to retake the fallen kingdom, however the achievement drains him of all desire to finish his goal and he flees in shame.

What Bruenor didnt realise is that this priest of Abbathor was part shadow dragon (a maeluth) and it is the descendants of that priest that continued in Dardath and Hunnabar and survive in Delg Dragonsteel.



Quite bizarrely i also discovered the Blingdenstone survives underneath Firstpeak. That makes Menzoberranzan an even greater culprit as being behind the fall of Mithril Hall, it seems like it was actively trying to remove all the dwarves and other races from the region possibly so they could get hold of the mithril for themselves. Menzoberranzan could have even arranged for the fall of Ironstar. Shimmergloom could have been around for a lot longer in the depths of the mines and helped destroy Ironstar from beneath and then lay around until Clan Battlehammer disturbed him (they might not have ever known he existed if they split off from Clan Ironstar before Shimmergloom got involved).


Just a few thoughts and research, i really need to speak to the experts about this.

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 28 Jun 2020 :  20:19:55  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Apologies, this is a set of notes from when i read the Moonshae novels a year or more ago, they are unorganised and i can't be bothered to reread the novel to see if i missed anything or to organise them properly.

Darkwell (1346 DR)

Stone breakwater protects Llewellyn Harbour
Kendricks ruled only Corwell for 2 centuries – ruled another kingdom or started a new dynasty?
Sacred Grove of the Earthmother becomes the new Darkwell – Heart of Kazgoroth creates the Darkwell?


Norland longships – Northwind, Redfin
Grunnarch off raiding shores far from Moonshae Isles – towns of Amn and northern Calimshan

Lodi – town in Amn – possessed 4 scrolls of incredible value
Scrolls of Arcanus - contain runes of power similar to druidic runes used by druids of the Moonshae Isles. - ancient, from before the time of Cymrych Hugh – possibly scrolls from the talfir of Ebenfar???

Robyn – increasing in strength and beauty despite not eating for days – LeShay / fey ancestry?

Old fishing dispute between Kythyss and Llewellyn.

The Defiant, best ship in the ffolk kingdoms, with the best crew
Dansforth, captain of the Defiant, old greybeard sailor

Heart of Kazgoroth can be used to reanimate petrified beings and corrupt them to the will of Bhaal – or to the will of the one that used the Heart.

Grunnarch the Red wields a battleaxe

Children of Bhaal – Thorax the owlbear (dimwitted but ferocious), peryton flock (guards), Shantu the displacer beast and king of Bhaal’s children.

Northmen outlaws raiding cantrev Dynatt and Koart (survivors from the Darkwalker campaign)

Corwell local custom to drink ale warm

When Genna’s grandmother was young there was a moonwell in every village, with hundreds of druids roaming the land.

Kressilacc is built into a sea canyon wall
Ysalla, priestess of sahuagin, carries golden dagger, worships bhaal
Sythissal, king of sahuagin


Silver chainmail of Tristan, light , unblemished – mithril perhaps

Daryth’s scimitar, enchanted to remain keen and sharp long ago by a forgotten weaponsmith, it glows in the dark

Taggar, shaman of Norland, worships Tempus

Grunnarch always raids late into the season – storms limit the raiding season?

Bay of Norland

Ingra, Grunnarch’s woman

Sahuagin army, the Claws of the Deep – crusading arm of sahuagin bhaal worshippers.

Koll and Gwen of Codscove – northmen fisherfolk
Codscove claimed a century ago by the northmen

Why did the Darkwell not expand when in the Fens of the Fallon – druids, elves, the Moonwell was depleted?

Ground of Myrloch Vale begins to crack and subside, green, red yellow gasses, sulphur, and something more sinister – weakness in the Underdark?
Tar pit, new to Myrloch Vale – volcanic activity in the Underdark?


Strait of Oman can be traveled in 8 hours (a single day or night)
Ramshorn on Oman is the settlement opposite Codscove.

Yak, firbolg from the Fens of the Fallon
Old fortress in the Fens of the Fallon had a medallion symbol of Chauntea on it, and magic glasses

Sword of Cymrych Hugh moves to its owner’s hand by a will of its own – intelligent, flight, teleportation?

Hobarth traveled across the sea using a transitive plane, nether plane filled with evil – Shadow Plane?

North wind, icy cold
winter storms strike the Sea of Moonshae with rough seas.

Ironkeep stood for 100 years as a symbol of northern might.

Council of Winternight, gathering of the northmen
Eric Graybeard, Urk Bearstooth, favoured lieutenants of Grunnarch the Red

People of Codscove are half ffolk, half northmen

Gate to Faerie beneath a tree, troll guarding the gate called Honkah-Fah-Snooei.

Garanday, command word for Tavish’s folding boat

Corwell town, inn of the Great Boar

Crown of the Isles emits a large aura of antimagic – fake crown to prevent identification?

Gnarhelm have skis for walking on snow.

Volumes of lore from the time of Cymrych Hugh in Caer Allisynn


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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 29 Jun 2020 :  10:56:57  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looks like i'm way off the mark with Clan Battlehammer, just read Hall of Heroes (thanks George) and Clan Battlehammer are from Delzoun.

So Ironstar and Mithril Hall overlap in time and geography without any apparent connection.

I'm still certain Clan Battlehammer is cursed though and it seems a story worth exploring.


Onto the Avatar series now, and Shadowdale is up next. I'm only 18 pages in but there is as much lore in here as there is in Spellfire or the Azure Bonds, and i've deliberately ignored the god stuff focusing only on actual lore of Toril.


It would seem that i can find justification for my mass hysteria theory even in the very books that detail the Time of Troubles as a god centric event. The first few pages mention how people declared themselves prophets all over Faerun (and that they are in regular communication with the gods) and one man even declared that his cat Pretti is Oghma herself. Others performed great miracles likely owing to the instability of magic at the time (a simple cure spell could heal a thousand men and restore others to life or it could burn down an entire temple). So exacerbate that a hundred fold and how would anyone truly know if the gods walked the earth or not.

Its not a bad read either, i quite like the language of this book (far more than Streams of Silver or the Crystal Shard).

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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
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Posted - 29 Jun 2020 :  13:31:46  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gary - just wanted to say again thanks for these posts, I really enjoy your lore snippets and they are bringing some good dialogue about lore. Keep it up please.
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 29 Jun 2020 :  18:41:14  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, Shadowdale is a good read so far. I've got the names of 15 inns in various cities, a variety of npcs and even a subplot about a group trying to sabotage the Arabel to Dalelands trade route with hidden traitors among the Arabel guard (i reckon its the Iron Throne)

Supposedly magic goes awry at every casting, sometimes magnifying the result dangerous, sometimes doing nothing at all, sometimes doing something wild and unpredictable. It even affects Midnight who has access to a shard of Mystra herself.

But Bane manages to imprison Mystra the blob in shackles of enchanted fire and summon a hakeashar, and teleport himself and another mage to Castle Kilgrave, and create a scrying pool to speak to Myrkul, all of which happens without error of any kind.

In order to explain this away i think it might be that Castle Kilgrave is situated on a former site of Bane's power from when he was alive. The chains and the scrying pool and summoning circle could all be pre-existing to the god nonsense and relics from his mortal existence, magic items it would seem are less affected by the magical chaos.

I also wonder if wild talents are affected. Magic items are less affected by the magical chaos possibly because their magical effects are already moulded and predetermined, if that is the case then wild talents are already moulded and predetermined inside the person (i mean wild talent in regards to Ed's use of wild talents, not the psionic stuff, although i consider psionics to be just wild talents and specialised form of magic).

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TheIriaeban
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Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  00:03:26  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Did it say anything special that Bane did? Maybe he used rune, blood, candle, table, etc magic? Since they do not utilize the Weave, they would be stable during this time.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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bloodtide_the_red
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Posted - 30 Jun 2020 :  02:31:20  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison



But Bane manages to imprison Mystra the blob in shackles of enchanted fire and summon a hakeashar, and teleport himself and another mage to Castle Kilgrave, and create a scrying pool to speak to Myrkul, all of which happens without error of any kind.


The magical chaos effects the gods far less then mortals. For mortals it's like 1 of 3 spells, for gods it's more like 1 of 10.
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 01 Jul 2020 :  21:27:32  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm wondering where lyonsbane keep was located. I know it's never been stated officially that anyone can find but there are a few hints lying around.

Kelemvor starts off in Arabel in Cormyr and certainly seems to know the place, geography, customs, people. He has a longstanding association with Cyric and Adon who are also based in Cormyr (Cyric seemingly joined a thieves guild in Cormyr and later left).

In Prince of Lies the Chaos Hound follows his trail all over the Heartlands after he leaves Lyonsbane Keep. I take the Heartlands to mean Cormyr, Sembia, Dalelands, etc

There is mention of a man in Shadowdale called Hawksguard who knew Kelemvor when he was younger.


Im thinking that Lyonsbane Keep is one of the Border Barons keeps guarding the other side of the stormhorns.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 03 Jul 2020 :  09:36:30  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shadowdale (1358 DR)

Helm, of the Unseeing Eye, God of Guardians
Mystra appeared as a blue white amorphous cloud in Castle Kilgrave
Tymora in Arabel
Gond in Lantan
Bane in Zhentil Keep
Loviatar in Waterdeep


Zhentil Keep
Trannus Kialton, low ranking priest of Bane, having an affair with Angelique Cantaran
Angelique Cantaran, wife of a wealthy spice importer in the city.
Streets and alleys often hid thieves and cutthroats and strange monsters
The Dark Temple, a temple of Bane, made of black stone with spires like jagged teeth. Destroyed by a flaming sphere
The Black Throne of Bane inside the Dark Temple
A jade circlet in the treasure room of the Dark Temple, allows the wearer to permanently alter form and shape (permanently), used to mould hands into claws, char the skin, etc
Trannus Kialton assumes command of the entire city (who believe him to be Bane)
Tempus Blackthorne, pale ivory skin long jet black hair and wears a black metal breastplate with a fist sized blood red gem in its centre, a mage of great power, arrives in Zhentil Keep with news of Mystra at Castle Kilgrave. Bane and Tempus teleport to Castle Kilgrave and find her weakened. Mystra sent some part of herself to find Midnight. Tempus Blackthorne chased after the shard of Mystra. Blackthorne was a childhood friend of Ronglath Knightsbridge.
Blackthorne supposedly died during casting an emissary spell that allowed him to deliver a message to loviatar in Waterdeep (he transformed into a black gem)
Bane imprisoned Mystra under Castle Kilgrave using chains of enchanted fire, he then called a hakeashar (magic eater) to guard her. Bane had made a pact with this creature long ago, it can release the magical energy it consumes (and give it to Bane???).
Black Guard, the watch of Zhentil Keep
Quicksal, an evil little thief, unwashed hair with traces of dye of every colour in it (from the disguises), thin hawklike face, extremely long fingers, knew Cyric. 25 years old now.
Banites were moving between Castle Kilgrave and Zhentil Keep while Bane was at Castle Kilgrave.
Thurbal (captain of arms in Shadowdale) caught trying to infiltrate Zhentil Keep and the Black Network under an assumed identity. Dragged through the streets and tortured. (was he a Harper???)
Ronglath Knightsbridge, 40 years old, 6 feet tall, impressive build, warrior, served Zhentil Keep all his life
Order of assassins trained from birth, wear bone white armour, bleach their skin, paint the symbol of Bane in black dye on their face, associated with the Church of Bane.
Fzoul became Bane’s second in command after the death of Blackthorne
Mordant DeCruew, Leetym, and Rusch are temple guards and soldiers in Bane’s army to attack Shadowdale
Bane sent his armies to die in Shadowdale as Myrkul would bind their soul energy to Bane to make him stronger.
Myrkul knew the Celestial Stair was in Shadowdale next to the Temple of Lathander.


Other Lore
The Jewelled Gauntlet of Bane
A blue/white star pendant of Mystra
Brehnan Mueler and his daughter Analee Mueler (his wife died nearly 10 years ago), live in a cottage west of Calanter’s Way on the edge of a forest. Brehnan Mueler is a cleric of Tymora
Tymora herself can be seen between highsunfeast and eveningfeast in Arabel
Many self proclaimed prophets appeared declaring they had contact with the gods (an old man in Arabel declared Oghma had possessed his cat Pretti)
Mass hysteria breaks out whenever magic is used, people panic at the chaotic results.
Followers of Bane have used Bane’s favourite hakeashar on many occasions.
Celestial Stairway at Castle Kilgrave
Celestial Stairway in Shadowdale
Elminster collects magical harps from Myth Drannor
Geryon’s Death spell, opens a dark rift with twinkling lights along the periphery, normally kills everyone nearby within moments. Geryon died 50 years ago (presumably casting the spell???). Elminster is summoned any time it is cast. Casting of this spell is forbidden and all written copies destroyed (presumably the weave prevents its casting)
Forest appears and then rots away to nothing on the road to castle kilgraves
mountains move in Shadow Gap
One of the Tablets of Fate is in Tantras (why???)
Elminster opened a rift and summoned the “Eye of Eternity” when he was 140 years old, he used it again to fight the forces of Bane in Sahdowdale

Protective Spells and Sayings
Chiah, Warden of Darkness?"
"Of Elki, of Apenimon, draw from thy power —"
Elminster grinned. "The dream dance of Lukyan Lutherum?"
Midnightfelt her lips tremble. She recited the incantation perfectly, yet Elminster
stopped her before she could finish.
"Read for me now, from the sacred scrolls of Knotum, Seif, Seker..."

Company of the Lynx
Company of the Lynx from Immersea.
Led by Knorrel Talbot
Searching for the remains of a dead dragon slain by the Wyvernwater - the dragon had attacked a diplomatic envoy crossing Anauroch and swallowed all the treasure – in truth the dragon swallowed a scroll containing a list of Red Wizard agents in Cormyr and Talbot intended to sell that information.
Goulart, a burly fighter
Parys and Bartholeme Guin, twins and magic users

Midnight
25 years old
Originally from Deepingdale, trained by Sunlar (head priest of Mystra in Deepingdale). Sunlar took personal interest in the training and welfare of Midnight (why???)
Travelling to Arabel in Cormyr
mage
A member of the Company of the Lynx, fled after hearing they planned to kill her after she opened the scroll containing the list of Red Wizard agents in Cormyr. Took the scroll with her and ran to Arabel via Calanter’s Way.
Mystra referred to Midnight as “my daughter”
Real name Ariel Manx

Kelemvor Lyonsbane
Warrior, lives in Arabel.
A guardsman (purple dragon militia???)
Battled Ronglath Knightsbridge atop Arabel’s walls and was thrown from the battlements but did not die (Ronglath Knightsbridge was the traitor in Arabel???)
On a mission to hunt traitors in the Purple Dragon militia of Arabel, hired by Evon Stralana
Adventurer that had worked with Cyric and 7, just returned to Cormyr after a failed mission to recover the Ring of Winter (only Kelemvor and Cyric survived from an company of 8), it was a false trail to the Ring of Winter, they fought a frost elemental and his giant thralls in a cave in Thar (from Prince of Lies)
Cannot accept charity (must take payment)
Sexist
Cursed bloodline, the Lyonsbane Curse
Werepanther, changes form if he receives no reward for a quest or abandons a quest. Change in form literal splits his previous form apart and the new form emerges from within.
Grew up in Lyonsbane Keep
Seventh generation descendant of Kyle Lyonsbane (175 years ago, ish for Kyle to be alive)
Kendrel Lyonsbane, Kelemvor’s father was a cruel tyrannical man
Killed his own father and fled
Burne Lyonsbane, Kelemvor’s uncle, a burly warrior like Kelemvor, saved Kelemvor as a child but Kelemvor let him die.
Torum Garr, red haired man, an exiled warrior king that died fighting drow while attempting to reclaim his kingdom, Kelemvor could not help because of his curse.
Vance, childhood friend of Kelemvor. (therefore also a noble). Kelemvor watched as he was slain by assassins, Kelemvor could not help because of his curse.
His grandfather was executed (for a crime???)
Kyle Lyonsbane started the curse, a true mercenary, ruthless in extracting payment. Could have defended a fallen sorceress or continue on to the enemy fortress to plunder its riches, the sorceress would have objected to the plundering so he left her to die at the hands of the enemy and so she cursed him.
The Lyonsbane curse was originally to transform into a mindless beast whenever payment was taken for a service, In his son the curse mutated into transforming into a beast (not mindless) whenever payment was not received, and he had to kill someone to return to normal.
Lukyan Lyonsbane, Kyle’s grandson, discovered his father was senile and cursed and turned into a murderous beast whenever he performed a good act without reward. Lukyan slew his father and so all Lyonsbane children slew their fathers when they reached 50 years of age.
Not every generation receives the curse. Kendrel Lyonsbane and Burne Lyonsbane were unaffected. kendrel’s four sons were affected.

Arabel
The Lady’s House, Temple of Tymora in Arabel destroyed after a cleric cast a healing spell and it went awry (the church disavowed him as a heretic). A woman walked out of the flaming temple and was declared to be Tymora herself.
Local butcher chased by his formerly dead stock
Local mage cast levitation and floated high into the atmosphere
The Black Mask Tavern, a mage trapped himself in a prismatic sphere and died of thirst a week later (then the spell vanished)
Ronglath Knightsbridge, a guard in Arabel, wields a spiked mace, working for the Zhentarim.
House of Gelzunduth, a merchant of questionable repute who officially sold hand crafter jewellery, costume weapons, and books of forgotten lore. Rumours are that he dealt in forged documents and information on official events (troop movements, etc). Has thus far escaped Purple Dragon attempts to entrap him. Gelzunduth was providing false documents for traitor guards in Arabel
The Hungry Man Inn, a street away from the House of Gelzunduth, serves hearty meals. Run by Zehla (an elderly woman), frequented by Kelemvor. Zehla has contacts in the black market and a hidden supply of healing and other potions.
Evon Stralana, thin dark haired man with a pallid complexion, minister for defence of Arabel (appointed by Myrmeen Lhal), hired mercenaries (on orders of Myrmeen Lhal) to infiltrate the Purple Dragon militia and root out traitors. The traitor was believed to be working with those plotting the economic downfall of Arabel by sabotaging trade routes (Sembia perhaps, Iron Throne, Zhentarim, or Cormyrean nobles???). Hired Kelemvor, Cyric, and Adon to uncover the traitor (Ronglath Knightsbridge who has now fled).
Caitlan Moonsong, a child waif in Arabel, malnourished, owns a red gem that allows her to read the mind and memories of a person (must come into contact with their blood), has only 1 charge. Wants Kelemvor, Cyric, Midnight, and Adon to travel to Castle Kilgrave and rescue her mistress.
Night Wolf Inn
Arabel has one defence that is made strong by magic (the wall???) now made unreliable by the crisis.
The Gentle Smile, a feasthall, serves poor quality (sometimes rancid) food
Marek, senior thief in the Thieves Guild of Zhentil Keep, wants Cyric to rejoin the guild
Pride of Arabel Inn, expensive, practice social airs and graces, visiting nobles sometimes stayed here (when there were no more rooms at the Citadel/Palace)
Tensyl Durmond (young man), recruiter for Iardon’s Hirelings
High Moon Inn, pays serving staff poorly.
The Scarlet Spear inn near the Pride of Arabel
Thurbrand of the Stonelands, an old companion and now rival (after a disagreement when many companions died on a mission) of Kelemvor. 30 odd years, balding, lined face, green eyes, starting to get fat, no longer an active mercenary instead runs a mercenary band of 10 (7 males, 3 female), they frequent the Pride of Arabel. Mercenary band is known as the Company of Dawn and are hired to capture Kelemvor.
The Company of Dawn (Tymora sponsored company) dispatched from Arabel to pursue Kelemvor etc after the battle at Castle Kilgrave
Tymora suffered a panic attack / episode of pain and fits, became unresponsive for a while after.

Adon
Cleric of Sune
Vain, considered himself to have the fairest skin in the Realms.
Works at the temple of Sun in Arabel
A well known philanderer
Seduced a contact of Ronglath Knightsbridge and discovered details of an attack on Arabel.
Praises Sune at every opportunity
Gets a scarred face, loses his faith

Cyric
26 years old
Thin, dark haired
Paranoid but kind (gives to the poor)
owns a cloak of displacement
Mentored by Marek (a thief and assassin)
Former member of the thieves guild of Zhentil Keep.
Mother fell in love with a Zhentilar officer. He abandoned her when she fell pregnant. She lived among the poor and homeless for a time, Cyric’s father murdered his mother soon after he was born and sold Cyric to slavers (who sold him to a Sembian family)
Orphaned as a baby in Zhentil Keep, bought by Sembian family and raised in Sembia until he was 10, then returned to Zhentil Keep
Trained by Marek in Zhentil Keep as a thief from 11 until 16 years old. Cyric left the Thieves’ Guild and fled Zhentil Keep, they put a bounty on his head.
Cyric spent 8 years on the road
Returned to Zhentil Keep at 24 years of age, the Thieves’ Guild offered to allow him to rejoin but he refused (bounty is still on his head). He fled to Arabel.



Castle Kilgrave
Became home to Bane/Trannus Kialton
Enchanted chains of fire used to bind Mystra
A scrying pool used by Bane to speak to Myrkul.
A ruin now but once a magnificently simple castle
Perfectly square keep with cyclindrical towers
The Castle was 3 stories high
The moat had dried up long ago
Tapestries all depict monarchs sitting upon thrones of skulls, or battles with huge titans. No pictures of kindness or joy.
Something in the castle makes people delusional and ultimately insane, Bane turned the castle into an illusion nightmare
Mystra is freed, Bane escapes, Mystra climbs the Celestial Stairway and is killed by Helm, the fallout from this creates the Helmlands.
Mystra rewards the heroes with gold and a magic harp before her death. Methild’s Harp, a harp from Myth Drannor, known to open all locks, part all webs, and break all bonds when played.

Myrmeen Lhal
Azure gown that moves on command and dries the commander, a gift from a powerful and amorous wizard one year ago.

Shadowdale
Thurbal, captain of arms and warden of Shadowdale, sent to infiltrate Zhentil Keep.
Celestial Stairway in Shadowdale, just outside the temple to Lathander.
Yarbro, guard in the Twisted Tower of Ashaba, overly zealous guard. Was found on the outskirts of Myth Drannor 2 years ago by the Knights of Myth Drannor and brought to Shadowdale.
Mayheir Hawksguard, acting Captain of Arms in Shadowdale while Thurbal is away. Came from a similar background to Kelemvor Lyonsbane (gentry nobility???) knew of Burne Lyonsbane and the stories of Lyonsbane Keep. Slain by Bane during the battle of Shadowdale.
Neena, servant girl in the Twisted Tower of Ashaba
Old Skull Inn owned by Jhaele Silvermane
Renee, serving girl in the Old Skull Inn,crimson, curly hair, blue eyes, attractive
Temple of Tymora clerics slaughtered by Zhentil Keep agents.
Hundreds of volunteers came through Shadow Gap to aid in the defence of the dale against the forces of Zhentil Keep
Sulcar Reedo’s farm on the opposite side of the road and slightly further east to Jhaele Silvermane’s farm, near Old Skull Inn.
Weregund the trader has a warehouse near Old Skull Inn.
Forester (the name) of a large man
Temple of Lathander building layout is in the shape of a Phoenix
Rhaymon, priest of Lathander
Connel Greylore, archer in Shadowdale’s army (forester normally???), slain during battle for Shadowdale
Mawser, thin man in Shadowdale’s army, devout worshipper of Tymora, slain during battle for Shadowdale.
Drizhal, 20 years old, bright yellow hair, in Shadowdale’s army.
Bishop, field commander in Shadowdale’s army, older than Kelemvor, dirty blond hair, fair complexion.
Elminster opened a rift and Mystra as a Magic Elemental emerged and slew Bane. Elminster fell into the rift and closed it. The rift destroyed the Celestial Stair.
Temple of Lathander destroyed by the rift.

Tilverton
Flagon Held High, inn
Dim lighting, unhelpful staff, sullen mood
Innkeeper no longer cares about his business, always drunk
Temple of Gond, entrance constructed in the form of a great anvil, all of the temple devoted to a single great chamber. Huge stone anvil serves as the altar with giant stone hands either side and a gigantic hammer in one of the hands. Support pillars carved in the form of swords, windows framed with interlocking hammers
Lots of blacksmiths near the Temple of Gond
Pilgrims of Gond from Tilverton travelled to Lantan but were turned away and two were slain when they refused to leave
City is devoted to worship of Gond, heartbroken that Gond has not appeared in Tilverton. May turn away from religion after the troubles.
Phylanna, priestess of Gond
Rull, high priest of Gond, able to heal using crystals.
Torrence, a jackalwere stalking Tilverton. Slain by Kelemvor

Company of the Dawn
Formed by Thurbrand, who is the leader
Gillian, 16 years old, tanned, dry skin, stringy brown hair, ordinary looking but not unattractive.
Cleric of Tymora
Brion, albino, thief, young (16 or younger)
Zalanz, fighter
Welch, fighter
Bohaim, young mage from Suzail
Isaac
Vogt
All slain in Spiderhaunt Woods except Thurbrand, Isaac, and Vogt

Spiderhaunt
Filled with ambush spiders, black bodies with orange spots, pale green legs. Other spiders with black and red bodies and bloated crimson legs. Other spider with black body and sleek sharp legs and greater agility than the others.
Large white spider, larger than any others, all other spiders avoid it.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6026 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2020 :  09:47:27  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shadowdale wasnt a bad read overall.

I much preferred Cyric to any of the other characters (except maybe Adon after he got scarred), i dont know if this was intentional on the part of the writer but Cyric seemed like a genuinely nice person who had a tough start in life. He gave to the poor rather than a greedy church, he regretted killing people even though they tried to kill him, he stuck by his friends even though it put him in mortal danger.


As for the god nonsense. If it wasnt in a way that spelled out the thoughts and actions of the gods, the whole event could be interpreted just as magic gone wild and people taking advantage of the hysteria by pretending to be gods. Cyric could find nothing about Tymora that made him think she was a god. Bane had to eat and sleep and was just as flawed as any man trying to pretend to be a god, there was mention of obvious imposters (Oghma as a cat). The gods themselves acted like jerks most of the time. Mystra using a child for her own purposes (to the death of that child), Mystra and Tymora refusing to help people that didnt believe in them.

Curiously the magic gone wild and random effects that affected geography seemed to only affect wilderness areas. If the mountains turning to glass or a forest appearing and everything rotting away had happened in a major urban area there would be thousands dead and utter chaos. But all urban areas were largely unaffected and it seems later sources completely ignored this aspect of the ToT.


One thought i have had is the Celestial Stairs. They appeared to be placed at random (Shadowdale, Waterdeep, Castle Kilgrave), and yet also have powerful magic users in residence nearby. I'm wondering a few things, what exactly causes a Celestial Stairway to come into being, and does its existence have a benefit that allows nearby magic users to take advantage of (perhaps easier summoning, divination, and teleportation magics). It would appear that only divine beings and uber powerful mages (who may be semi divine anyway) are only able to see them.


Lots of random bits of lore in this book. The Geryon's Death spell, Elminster's summoning of the Eye of Eternity when he was 140 years old, Kyle Lyonsbane and his curse 7 generations ago.

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neutrondecay
Acolyte

United Kingdom
37 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2020 :  10:50:12  Show Profile Send neutrondecay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How much of the family tree of the Lyonsbanes is it possible to reconstruct from what we're told in the book?

Thanks,

nd
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6026 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2020 :  11:51:05  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
7 generations starting with Kyle Lyonsbane and ending with Kelemvor.

Kyle had the curse where he would become a beast whenever he took payment for an action. He became a recluse living of friends and family and lost everything.

His son is unnamed but was innocent and the curse altered so that he became a beast whenever he performed an altruistic action.

Lukyan Lyonsbane (Kyle's grandson) was forced to slay his father (Kyle's son) when his father became 50 and brain addled. This established a tradition of sons slaying their fathers at 50 in the family (presumably a form of early onset alzheimers due to the curse is also hereditary and strikes in late 40s).

Then we have 3 unknown generations of Lyonsbane until Kendrel and Burne Lyonsbane were born. Neither of them carried the curse.
Kendrel had 4 sons, the last of whom was Kelemvor (one of his brothers was Gunther who slew burne and kelemvor slew gunthar).
All of kendrels sons were cursed.

It doesnt mention any females of the line, perhaps the curse affected only male children and perhaps also only allowed male children to be born.




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neutrondecay
Acolyte

United Kingdom
37 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2020 :  12:00:58  Show Profile Send neutrondecay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

7 generations starting with Kyle Lyonsbane and ending with Kelemvor.

Kyle had the curse where he would become a beast whenever he took payment for an action. He became a recluse living of friends and family and lost everything.

His son is unnamed but was innocent and the curse altered so that he became a beast whenever he performed an altruistic action.

Lukyan Lyonsbane (Kyle's grandson) was forced to slay his father (Kyle's son) when his father became 50 and brain addled. This established a tradition of sons slaying their fathers at 50 in the family (presumably a form of early onset alzheimers due to the curse is also hereditary and strikes in late 40s).

Then we have 3 unknown generations of Lyonsbane until Kendrel and Burne Lyonsbane were born. Neither of them carried the curse.
Kendrel had 4 sons, the last of whom was Kelemvor (one of his brothers was Gunther who slew burne and kelemvor slew gunthar).
All of kendrels sons were cursed.

It doesnt mention any females of the line, perhaps the curse affected only male children and perhaps also only allowed male children to be born.


Thank you!

nd
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6026 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2020 :  12:21:02  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now assuming an 20 year generational gap and is the minimum for fathering a child that means the earliest Kyle Lyonsbane could have been operating in the Heartlands region would be 1210 DR ish which is around the time of King Dhalmass the warrior king of Cormyr who had so many wars that he caused at least 1 noble house to go extinct.

a 25 year generational gap means that Kyle Lyonsbane could have been around between 1210 and 1180 DR ish. However nobles in rich nations could have much greater life expectancy and still father children, but there is a mention of Lyonsbane children slaying their fathers when they reached 50 years of age which means the children would most likely be an adult by this time so i think the maximum generational gap would be 30 years

So Kyle Lyonsbane could have been around anywhere from 1150 DR to 1210 DR. This puts him in the time frame for the troubles between Cormyr and Espar as well as in the wars of King Dhalmass. There is also plenty of trouble in Westgate. Lots of opportunity in either area for a mercenary to gain a noble title. I'm still thinking Kyle Lyonsbane was made a Border Baron of Cormyr for his services. He then lost everything and became a recluse but his son or grandson could equally have reclaimed that land due to their mercenary activities.
A Border Baron keep would be out of the way so as not to be noticed. They would not be considered hereditary nobility (having to repurchase the rights to their land with each generation) so Kelemvor could not claim to be noble himself. He would therefore have lots of knowledge and contacts in Cormyr (as he does) and his family name could be well known in the Heartlands, but not important enough to carry any weight in Cormyr itself (because he is now a commoner).

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6026 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2020 :  17:38:04  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, within the first 10 pages of Tantras, Cyric has gone from a cynical hero to murdering psychopath. That won't do at all, I think Cyric shall be my first detailing of where belief shaped the "personality" and behaviour of a divine being.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
942 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2020 :  19:11:51  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, Cyric's shift was unexpected.

When I first read Shadowdale, I was surprised Cyric is so likable.
I though then Tantras was possibly written by another writer using the pen name "Richard Awlinson" (like Troy Denning also did writing Waterdeep), but it seems both Shadowdale and Tantrad were written by Scott Ciencin.

With Cyric though, I would prefer him becoming evil as a mortal, if not as evil as he became as a god but slower so, like Walter White did for example in Breaking Bad.

but indeed I think he would only become as evil as was a god, after he became a Power, due to essentially taking place of, and accepting prayers and belief of 3 very malicious gods.

With the gods, like Mystra's and Tymora's behavior, it seems the writer wanted to indeed show their punishment by Ao is deserved, although it does end up with gods behaving OOC for their characterizaton in other works and Alignment.

Still, for this reason, I heard and read the Avatar series was rather controversial.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1180 Posts

Posted - 05 Jul 2020 :  00:18:48  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Avatar series, at least the first 3 books, are very badly written. But they contain so much lore and as they are the catalyst for the change from 1st edition to 2nd edition, they're must reads. But they have so many problems as literature (for a lot of reasons that are documented).

I'm always surprised on the FB group when you get people who just love these books. I usually chalk it up to nostalgia, as they were very good selling when they came out 30 years ago. To each their own, but my god, if they love these books what do they think of books that are actually well written?

Edited by - Seravin on 05 Jul 2020 00:19:45
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36141 Posts

Posted - 05 Jul 2020 :  06:34:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The way I see it, Cyric was already on the path to evil in the first book. He wanted to be good, and almost managed it -- but when he had to make the call between doing the right thing and doing the easy thing, he went the easy route.

It's part of why I've never liked Cyric. He had a chance to be good, but wasn't strong enough. Sometimes, in fiction, when we see a good guy go bad, it's because of some major event -- someone was murdered, or a vile criminal walks free, or something like that. They were good, and then they fell, not intending to, still trying to do the right thing, but going at it the wrong way. Cyric? He didn't have that. He didn't have the strength of character to stand up to do the right thing. To paraphrase Neil Gaiman, Cyric didn't fall so much as vaguely saunter downwards.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
942 Posts

Posted - 05 Jul 2020 :  07:19:01  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, it can be argued that indeed Cyric was on the path to evil in and it was the authors intent, seeing TSR did plan on Cyric becoming evil.

But with him, I would argue not having the "strength of character to stand up to do the right thing" can also be presented as sympathetic and even tragic.

Of course, Your Millage May Vary.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36141 Posts

Posted - 05 Jul 2020 :  15:07:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Well, it can be argued that indeed Cyric was on the path to evil in and it was the authors intent, seeing TSR did plan on Cyric becoming evil.

But with him, I would argue not having the "strength of character to stand up to do the right thing" can also be presented as sympathetic and even tragic.

Of course, Your Millage May Vary.



Tragic, mayhaps, but I've no sympathy for someone who just shrugs their shoulders and commits murder, just because it's easier. Especially when that character then embraces his new path and happily charges down it.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Jul 2020 15:10:01
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