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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3715 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  03:24:44  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I've only skim read parts of the Evermeet novel. Until starting this thread I'd only ever read the moonshae novels in full to mine for information while I was developing that region.

Evermeet is a long way off.

-Ah, OK. Well Evermeet has more about Kymil, his motivations, his associates, and his fate.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1180 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  10:04:13  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And you're going to need to buckle in because it's got more lore than Candlekeep in that novel. Of course, again, there's a load of problems in that book with the "current day" plot that somehow a huge armada is assembled on the Sword Coast and launched and sails all the way to Evermeet without ANYONE knowing about it. I guess "a wizard did it" or all the elven spy network and resources on the mainland "just kind of forgot" to look at this or "made a mistake" or whatever anyone wants to say to defend this horrible plot contrivance.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36141 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  15:27:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

And you're going to need to buckle in because it's got more lore than Candlekeep in that novel. Of course, again, there's a load of problems in that book with the "current day" plot that somehow a huge armada is assembled on the Sword Coast and launched and sails all the way to Evermeet without ANYONE knowing about it. I guess "a wizard did it" or all the elven spy network and resources on the mainland "just kind of forgot" to look at this or "made a mistake" or whatever anyone wants to say to defend this horrible plot contrivance.



With cities that are weeks of travel time apart, I don't see any issue at all with picking some isolated spot on the map and gathering naval forces there.

It could have also been that the fleet sailed from different ports at staggered intervals and then gathered in one spot.

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3715 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  16:56:03  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-They also had, if I am not mistaken, divine intervention (rather than Kymil having divine inspiration). Would not be hard to believe that the deity in question assisting them would be able to assist in cloaking the ships from prying eyes and the wards of Evermeet.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1180 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  22:18:53  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wooly - you don't amass ships and an army on the Sword Coast without someone catching wind of it. An army and fleet that size would take months and months to assemble. Sorry, logistics don't work. SOMEONE would catch wind of it and go ... wtf is there an army and massive fleet being put together. Unless it was magically conjured up by a god out of no where, which - fine. That's bad writing, but whatever.

Travel times don't really matter in a world where a goddamn SILVER DRAGON is what spots the fleet. You have giant eagles and gryphons and magic of all kinds to let people know what is going on. There are harpers, Lords Alliance, and elves and elf allies up and down the sword coast. The minute an army and ships were ordered, someone would get wind of it.

The amount of defending bad writing on this board is a bit sad to me.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1180 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  22:21:54  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, who is paying for all of this? Kymil's assets would have been frozen and all his connections would have been investigated, apparently this is the reason you guys all like that he was spared is because he knows things about who is plotting to kill the Moonflowers. So was he just locked up and no leads? Did Lloth give him enough money to buy all these ships and mercenaries?

And were NO elven diviners present on Evermeet looking out for threats? Wouldn't there be a whole contigent of elven archmages whose sole purpose would be to be looking out for threats to Evermeet? And somehow everyone missed a massive fleet being gathered and sent out towards them until it was within striking distacne? Despite that taking at least a few months to get together and sail?

Don't worry, we won't get such any answers or logic. But yes, it's all great writing. A god did it. Sigh.


Edited by - Seravin on 23 Aug 2020 22:26:00
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1180 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  22:30:16  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-They also had, if I am not mistaken, divine intervention (rather than Kymil having divine inspiration). Would not be hard to believe that the deity in question assisting them would be able to assist in cloaking the ships from prying eyes and the wards of Evermeet.



And to be fair Lord Karsus, this is the only explanation that works for me is that massive divine intervention came into play to launch the attack. And if your plot only works if you have divine intervention/deus ex machina, I don't really like it personally, but at least it somewhat holds up in this world.

HOWEVER - don't the GOOD elven gods in the seldarine have I dunno somewhat of a vested interest in Evermeet not being sacked and destroyed by agents of Lloth? Why do the evil gods get to intervene directly and attack mortals that are loved by the good gods, but the good gods do nothing but let it happen? This is also very problematic for me. I think I'm applying too much logic to what is essentially teenage fiction, but I hold Elaine to very high standard cause she's so good.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36141 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  22:34:19  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Wooly - you don't amass ships and an army on the Sword Coast without someone catching wind of it. An army and fleet that size would take months and months to assemble. Sorry, logistics don't work. SOMEONE would catch wind of it and go ... wtf is there an army and massive fleet being put together. Unless it was magically conjured up by a god out of no where, which - fine. That's bad writing, but whatever.

Travel times don't really matter in a world where a goddamn SILVER DRAGON is what spots the fleet. You have giant eagles and gryphons and magic of all kinds to let people know what is going on. There are harpers, Lords Alliance, and elves and elf allies up and down the sword coast. The minute an army and ships were ordered, someone would get wind of it.

The amount of defending bad writing on this board is a bit sad to me.




It is not bad writing. All you'd have to do is have a few dozen agents -- they gather the ships and the armed forces without telling anyone what they're being hired for. Then they sail, no more than one or two ships at a time, from multiple locations. They gather the ships in some isolated spot -- some stretch of the coast 100 miles from anywhere, or some little island 100 miles offshore. And it's done.

Even if your theoretical random dragon spots them, what's he going to do? Swoop down and politely ask if they're planning on invading somewhere, then hightail it for the nearest major city to warn someone? No, he's going to see them, wonder casually what the smallfurs are up to, and maybe make a note to mention it to a wizard friend, the next time they talk -- six months from now.

This is not at all implausible... Just look at real world history. Even as recently as WWII, with aerial reconnaissance and radars and KNOWING there were hostiles about, there were still surprise attacks from ships that the enemy did not know was coming.

Secretly building an invasion fleet in a fantasy world is not bad writing, unless real world history is also bad writing.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Aug 2020 22:37:49
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

845 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  22:43:10  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

... unless real world history is also bad writing.



Real world is f****d up, who even wrote the stuff we are living through?
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1180 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  22:49:28  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh Wooly. You can't compare WW2 earth with Faerun and I'm sad you're making that case.

1) Divination magic from some of the most powerful mages in Faerun would be constantly looking for threats? Oh right a god did it.
2) Once Kymil was freed from prison did the Harpers not immedately go on the alert for the regicidal prisoner? Oh right a god did it.
3) How did Kymil amass the money to pay for this fleet? He's not the nation of Japan, he's one elf fugitive with no money? Oh right a god did it.
4) How did not one Harper/elf/lord alliance/good faction hear about any of the ships being amassed or mercenaries being bought in the months it would take them to get this together? Oh right a god did it.

It is objectively bad writing or we would have gotten some information as to how Kymil got all this together in the book. We didn't get any of that information, it was just there after Lloth freed him.

Your comparison to real world is stupid, let's see in today's world if any nation could build a giant navy and not have NATO know about it. That's much more apt given the powers at the hands of Evermeet who can directly speak with the Seldarine when required, and command Silver Dragons to protect them among a hundred other powerful protections.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3663 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  22:53:55  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Secretly building an invasion fleet in a fantasy world is not bad writing, unless real world history is also bad writing


Real world is indeed bad narrative, though the reason is not related to logic or to things making sense. The reason is that a story is meant to provide a link between events not only in terms of logic but also of delivering a statement about a theme; RW doesn't really do that (well, it rarely does anyway, or only does so over a far far longer period of time than a story covers, in that history followw certain patterns).

Edited by - Irennan on 23 Aug 2020 22:56:17
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1180 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  22:55:51  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It would have been so much better if Lolth had just resurrected an executed Kymil, then opened a gate to Evermeet and sent demons through it that Kymil lead along with his gold elf sympathizers. You get the same story of a brutal assault on Evermeet with none of the plot holes. The good Seldarine could have been spending their time trying to close the gate or sending agents to fight the demons to show they were actually capable of doing something other than letting evil attack their prized realm.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3663 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  22:57:39  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

It would have been so much better if Lolth had just resurrected an executed Kymil, then opened a gate to Evermeet and sent demons through it that Kymil lead along with his gold elf sympathizers. You get the same story of a brutal assault on Evermeet with none of the plot holes. The good Seldarine could have been spending their time trying to close the gate or sending agents to fight the demons to show they were actually capable of doing something other than letting evil attack their prized realm.




This raises the question of how can a portal created by an intermediate power (at best) not be immediately shut down by a whole friggin' pantheon in a split second.

Edited by - Irennan on 23 Aug 2020 22:58:05
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1180 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  23:02:33  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
This raises the question of how can a portal created by an intermediate power (at best) not be immediately shut down by a whole friggin' pantheon in a split second.


Agreed with you. Writing in a shared setting with Gods and magic is hard.

Edited by - Seravin on 23 Aug 2020 23:03:04
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3663 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  23:07:13  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is why, IMO, when you make a setting like this, creatures like gods should either be immeasurably powerful but unable to directly intrude mortals affairs, or able to directly intervene in the world but not as powerful.

Magic has counters (divinations can be countered by a variety of spells, for example), but gods being able to intervene directly AND being so powerful creates a scenario where high stakes must inevitably require some contrived setup of checking a certain god with another equally powerful thing to keep them distracted and unable to stop the massive threat or whatever.

Points like the one I made occurred quite a few times over the history of FR (why X god didn't stop Y disaster; they should obviously have been able to do so). It's the result of the slippery slope towards hypermeddling gods. And while I do like the gods to actually do stuff, otherwise I don't even see the point of having them as actual characters, that shouldn't be in the form of creating this cold war scenario where nothing happens or the apocalypse happens, because that corners writers into a setup where they can never have high stakes stories without involving a convoluted explanation on why a certain countermove that should have been made wasn't.

Edited by - Irennan on 23 Aug 2020 23:17:09
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2683 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  23:19:46  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or consistency about when the gods can directly interfere (for example, saving a population or something). I like divine interference, but perhaps a clearer cut definition on what circumstances allow them to interact directly (and what counts as directly. Eilistraee appears and dances with her followers, Torm appears to help defend a stronghold--or their avatars, do, anyway). When is direct "too direct", and when does it count as indirect (Talos sending a storm)? Clearer cut definitions may have helped stem confusion.

Some gods are also just more likely to interact with their followers than others.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 23 Aug 2020 23:20:31
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3663 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  23:31:41  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not referring to "fluff" intervention (like dancing or helping someone with everyday life and so on that you pointed out for Eilistraee), I'm referring to things that can impact plots in dramatic ways (well, a conforting presence or direct help can affect a story about the sturggles of an individal in a massive way, so let's say I was referring to plots like the invasion of Evermeet. Bigger picture plots).

If you want a god(dess) appearing to save a population, you should cut their power down significantly, otherwise you can never have high stakes plot without putting that protector god(dess) "in jail" (o to speak) first. Or you have them intervene only through blessings and stuff, and not directly. More powerful gods generally referain from directly intervening because of the understanding that, if a conflict that involved followers of one deity constantly came with the intervention of that deity (and the opposing deity too), the world would eventually become a smoking crater.

I'd say demigods (the lower end spectrum lesser deities at most) can be acceptable for direct intervention, because powerful mortals can stand a chance against them, and the kind of stories that involve massive elements where you'd expect gods to show up also include powerful mortals.

Edited by - Irennan on 23 Aug 2020 23:32:41
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2683 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  23:46:16  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I enjoy "fluff" intervention, myself lol. But okay, bigger picture stuff. I would still say there should be a clear definition of what counts as direct vs indirect. An avatar appearing is obviously direct, but if, say, Corellon sent up a storm to protect Evermeet (he isn't a god of storms, but w/e), and waves washed invading ships away. You don't have the god himself appearing, but you do have him directly "touching" the mortal world via the storm. I think this kind of thing should be allowed, but I bring it up because, to me anyway, the line between direct and indirect intervention can blur. Acting through clerics and such is indirect, but other things can be a "gray area", at least that is how it seems to me.

I agree that two deities directly appearing and conflicting would result in the world being a crater lol, I just think there are instances of "gray."

Sweet water and light laughter
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36141 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  23:53:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Oh Wooly. You can't compare WW2 earth with Faerun and I'm sad you're making that case.

1) Divination magic from some of the most powerful mages in Faerun would be constantly looking for threats? Oh right a god did it.
2) Once Kymil was freed from prison did the Harpers not immedately go on the alert for the regicidal prisoner? Oh right a god did it.
3) How did Kymil amass the money to pay for this fleet? He's not the nation of Japan, he's one elf fugitive with no money? Oh right a god did it.
4) How did not one Harper/elf/lord alliance/good faction hear about any of the ships being amassed or mercenaries being bought in the months it would take them to get this together? Oh right a god did it.

It is objectively bad writing or we would have gotten some information as to how Kymil got all this together in the book. We didn't get any of that information, it was just there after Lloth freed him.

Your comparison to real world is stupid, let's see in today's world if any nation could build a giant navy and not have NATO know about it. That's much more apt given the powers at the hands of Evermeet who can directly speak with the Seldarine when required, and command Silver Dragons to protect them among a hundred other powerful protections.




1) They did have divine assistance, but even if they didn't, how many mages are sitting around actively trying to scry for hidden invasion fleets? Most scrying magic, you need to know what you're looking for.
2) Who says the Harpers didn't look? It doesn't take divine magic to defeat scrying, and it's not like the Harpers had nothing else to do.
3) Who said Kymil had no money? He was very wealthy before he was busted -- it's quite likely that even if the Harpers were actively looking for all of his funds that they missed some. And he clearly had allies -- if he couldn't bankroll everything, his allies could.
4) Again, if it's spread out and done in intervals by different trusted parties, who is going to notice that? "Oh, this ship was hired by an elf in Baldur's Gate, and this one was hired by an elf in Waterdeep two tendays later -- those are obviously related!" . Besides, show me where it's written that every single coastal city knows the full details of all seaborne activities in other cities.

And we're not talking about the real world of today. We're talking about a fantasy world where you insist its impossible to launch a secret attack by sea, and I'm pointing out that even with known hostilities, better means of finding the enemy, and better means of communication, the same thing still happened in the real world less than a century ago.

The fact that you don't think it's possible -- even though it clearly is -- does not make it bad writing.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3663 Posts

Posted - 24 Aug 2020 :  00:08:24  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I enjoy "fluff" intervention, myself lol. But okay, bigger picture stuff. I would still say there should be a clear definition of what counts as direct vs indirect. An avatar appearing is obviously direct, but if, say, Corellon sent up a storm to protect Evermeet (he isn't a god of storms, but w/e), and waves washed invading ships away. You don't have the god himself appearing, but you do have him directly "touching" the mortal world via the storm. I think this kind of thing should be allowed, but I bring it up because, to me anyway, the line between direct and indirect intervention can blur. Acting through clerics and such is indirect, but other things can be a "gray area", at least that is how it seems to me.

I agree that two deities directly appearing and conflicting would result in the world being a crater lol, I just think there are instances of "gray."



Direct acts that don't require the deity to show up can lead to disaster too, though. If you start sending massive storms, then another deity may feel it's ok to make volcanoes erupt to protect (or favor) their followers, then yet another deity will see earthquakes as an acceptable course of action, etc... Even without going into explosive catastrophes, you may have famine and plagues come into play. It would be a mess tbh. For such deities, I feel that direct involvement could open the floodgates to ever escalating divine conflict, so the only way to prevent that is the system of agreeing to not directly intervene in this sense that On Hallowed Ground proposed. Only demipowers and a few lesser powers were excluded from it.

I tend to agree with it, in that only gods who can't cause damage on this masive scale, or singlehandedly wipe an army should be allowed to intervene directly. Otherwise, you will never be able to have high stakes plots without including massively powerful gods constantly trying to one-up each other.


Edited by - Irennan on 24 Aug 2020 00:11:24
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2683 Posts

Posted - 24 Aug 2020 :  00:41:48  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I enjoy "fluff" intervention, myself lol. But okay, bigger picture stuff. I would still say there should be a clear definition of what counts as direct vs indirect. An avatar appearing is obviously direct, but if, say, Corellon sent up a storm to protect Evermeet (he isn't a god of storms, but w/e), and waves washed invading ships away. You don't have the god himself appearing, but you do have him directly "touching" the mortal world via the storm. I think this kind of thing should be allowed, but I bring it up because, to me anyway, the line between direct and indirect intervention can blur. Acting through clerics and such is indirect, but other things can be a "gray area", at least that is how it seems to me.

I agree that two deities directly appearing and conflicting would result in the world being a crater lol, I just think there are instances of "gray."



Direct acts that don't require the deity to show up can lead to disaster too, though. If you start sending massive storms, then another deity may feel it's ok to make volcanoes erupt to protect (or favor) their followers, then yet another deity will see earthquakes as an acceptable course of action, etc... Even without going into explosive catastrophes, you may have famine and plagues come into play. It would be a mess tbh. For such deities, I feel that direct involvement could open the floodgates to ever escalating divine conflict, so the only way to prevent that is the system of agreeing to not directly intervene in this sense that On Hallowed Ground proposed. Only demipowers and a few lesser powers were excluded from it.

I tend to agree with it, in that only gods who can't cause damage on this masive scale, or singlehandedly wipe an army should be allowed to intervene directly. Otherwise, you will never be able to have high stakes plots without including massively powerful gods constantly trying to one-up each other.



Oh definitely. My point in bringing it up is because I think there is some inconsistency (both for readers and authors) on what constitutes as "direct interference". A storm or a volcano can be seen as indirect by some, as the god itself isn't actually there, and is acting through a "natural" agent. Others would see it as direct, because, while the god isn't there (as an avatar), they are directly "touching" the world and affecting the outcome of the conflict. This is why I pointed out it can be a "gray area". I agree that greater gods using weather or volcanoes would be just as catastrophic as them physically fighting on the prime material, but I think the idea of what is "direct vs indirect" interference isn't always cut and dry, which is why you have some instances, like only lesser powers being able to interfere, but in other instances, a greater god will send a storm to save a population from enemies (for example). Which, of course, isn't the same as the "fluff" intervention of a deity sending a rain storm to end a drought.

Sweet water and light laughter
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maransreth
Learned Scribe

Australia
150 Posts

Posted - 24 Aug 2020 :  13:09:38  Show Profile Send maransreth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Also, who is paying for all of this?



If I remember correctly it was something along the lines of "the island is full of magic and treasure and you can loot what you like, so no need to pay you, aarrhggghhh".

or no need for payment, just as long as I can get back at those filthy elves for what they have done to me.

Then again I might be wrong.
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
6026 Posts

Posted - 24 Aug 2020 :  15:49:22  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Partway through the Canticle, just got to some kind of weird kinky sex scene in a library between Cadderly and Danica that was shockingly unexpected.

My mind is running away with an Orcus heresy within a Talona sect at Castle Trinity.

My reading of the book so far indicates that Druzil manipulated Aballister all along into summoning him and working on the Chaos Curse, it doesnt appear to have anything to do with Talona (yet). It sounds like Druzil found the ancient recipe in some Jhaamdath or Chondathan text in his old master's library and then escaped to find a new master with greater resources. it would have been quite easy for the resourceful imp to invade the dreams of Aballister and whisper Druzil's name, or to disguise himself as some old hag and claim to be the avatar of Talona.

Thankfully there have been no really long fight scenes yet, and quite a lot of lore about the Edificant Library and Castle Trinity, but i doubt very much if that matches with the rest of the realms (the Most Fatal Horror being a title of the high priest of Talona i'm highly suspicious of). But all the details are easily sorted because its clear the sects of Talona, Deneir, and Oghma are isolated sects and therefore do not conform to the wider churches.

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maransreth
Learned Scribe

Australia
150 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2020 :  08:12:54  Show Profile Send maransreth a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Gary,
Will you be going through the short stories in the "Realms of ..." anthologies looking for lore? Or are the stories too short?

I recently started reading Realms of Valor - only two stories in so far. The first is the infamous Elminster at the Magefair. The second is a story from Douglas Niles about Pawldo the halfling. Interesting story about a castle that appears only on certain nights.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6026 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2020 :  08:15:20  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm intending to do them all, at least as far as the advent of 4e, I might go to the advent of 5e.

I'm having a bit of a break at the moment to develop the church of myrkul and keep my creative juices flowing. Another few weeks and I'll get back to reading the Canticle.

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Thojan Ralwens
Acolyte

Belgium
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Posted - 03 Sep 2020 :  10:34:31  Show Profile Send Thojan Ralwens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Delicious, delicious work so far. Thank you again. :)
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6026 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2020 :  12:30:41  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Canticle (1361 DR)

Aballister Bonaduce
Aballister was powerful in 1358 DR during the ToT but directionless until Talona appeared to him [prologue]
Druzil the imp, his familiar, sent by Talona with a recipe for the Chaos Curse. Toothy smile, long potty teeth.[prologue, 2]
Has a ring of protection against cold [prologue]
Has a mirror of scrying that will also transport him to far flung places of the realms (like the Great Glacier [prologue,5]
Aballister is searching the Great Glacier (travels by magic) for the last ingredient for the Chaos Curse (Yote)[prologue]
Has killed 100 men in his quest to gather the ingredients for the Chaos Curse. Has aged with every stage of his quest, inflicting pain on himself whenever he failed. Is obsessed with the Chaos Curse [prologue].
Talona instructed Aballister (how, through dreams, a random old hag appeared) to summon Druzil the imp, who would give him a recipe for entropy.[2]
Uses a golden, everburning brazier on a tripod in his room. This is his gate to the lower planes (through which he summoned Druzil). Creates an interlunar gate when certain powders throne into the brazier.[2]
Once handsome, now hollow and worn out after his 2 year quest. Bony fingers, hawkish nose, thinning hair.[2,5]
Allowed Barjin to rise to power in Castle Trinity, needs his support and finances to hold Castle Trinity together (internal or external strife recently???) and to finance the creation of the Chaos Curse [2]
Once studied at the Edificant Library but was asked to leave because of his fascination with the lower planes and his inability to distinguish between good and evil.[5]
Was at the Edificant Library 20 years ago, intelligent, always experimenting (often called a Gondsman by Avery). Was sent away and returned only once to deliver his son to the library.[9]

Druzil
Former master was another wizard (a century ago).[2]
Discovered the ancient recipe for the Chaos Curse in an obscure manuscript. He kept it secret from his former master.[2]
Smarter than most imps, and most humans.[2]
All other members of Castle Trinity think Druzil is a statue, he stands still whenever they enter Aballister’s chambers.[2]
Can use telepathy, plane shift, suggestion.[4]

Chaos Cure
Yote (grey brown mushroom from the Great Glacier region.[prologue]
Eyes of an umber hulk.[2]
Blood of a druid.[2]
Pentads of a displacer beast.[2]
Should not be imbibed, the consequences are too grave. Combined with the smoke of an Eversmoking Bottle to release its effects “safely”.[2]
Those affected lose all inhibitions and follow their desires without compunction.[2]

Other Lore
Arcite, Newander, Cleo, initiate druids, rarely travel to the Edificant Library unless they discover a rare tome or a new recipe for potions. Last time these 3 visited Edificant Library was 14 years ago with a powerful druid named Shannon (she died peacefully several years ago.[1]
Cacasa nut, available at the Edificant Library (grows in Erlkazar or nearby???)[1]
Artefact museums of Caliport.[1]
Oil of impact, made from hill giant fingernails and crushed oxen horn.[1]
Most Fatal Horror is a title referring to the highest ranking and most devout priests of Talona.[2]
Priests of Talona, usually undergo grotesque tattoos and scarification.[2]
Clerics of Oghma fancy themselves as wrestlers.[3]
Ribotan monks not celibate.[3]
Priests of the Edificant library not celibate.[3]
Stone chuck, an ancient and archaic halfling weapon from southern Luiren, a crystal yoyo.[3]
Talona’s symbol, a triangle with 3 teardrops inside it.[4]
Edificant Library symbol for Talons is a triangle with a trident inside and each prong tipped by teardrop shaped bottles.[4]
Carradoon, human settlement, near Impresk Lake on the southeastern edge of the Snowflake Mountains.[4]
Grandmaster Penpahg D’ahn of the Ribotan monks of Ashanath, died 500 years ago. Studied fighting and concentration techniques.[5]
Arcite takes the form of a bear, Cleo takes the form of a tortoise.[9]
Priest of Ilmater engage in self flagellation as a minor ritual [11]
Drow sleep poison becomes useless when exposed to sunlight [12]
the renown housekeeping skeletons of Maid Land [13]
Ghouls are attracted to the raising of corpses, especially undead [14]

Great Glacier
Taer, white, primitive, humanoid, carry crude spears, gather in large groups [prologue]
Yote (a grey, brown mushroom) can only be found on the Great Glacier, growing in mountain caves (often inhabited by taer) [prologue]

Cadderly
21 years old, average height and build, more muscular than most priests, grey eyes, curly brown locks.
Wears a tan-white tunic and trousers (robes of a priest of Deneir). Wears a light blue silken cape, a blue wide brimmed hat banded in red (with plume on the right hand side). Porcelain and gold pendant in the centre of the band depicting a candle burning above an eye (symbol of Deneir) [1]
Priest of one of the sects of the Edificant Library [1]
Has a silver handled walking stick with the handle sculpted into a ram’s head.[1]
Mother died when he was 5 years old, father was too busy and neglected the child.[1]
Eidetic memory [1]
Recently inscribed a spellbook from memory for a wizard (his original spellbook was inscribe by Cadderly and he lost it in a fire.[1]
Low ranking priest.[1]
Impulsive, impatient.[1]
Is making a replica of a drow hand crossbow with darts covered in Oil of Impact.[3]

Newander
Bearded, gentle features, thick blonde shoulder length hair [1]
Druid, follows Silvanus.[1]
35+ years old
Cannot shapechange yet.[9]
Slain by Barjin [15]

Edificant Library
High in the Snowflake Mountains.[1]
Rarely take children before the age of ten.[1]
Thobicus, current Dean of the Edificant Library, has been Dean for at least 16 years (allowed Cadderly into the Edificant Library.[1]
Stood for 600 years and never been closed to scholars (except perhaps evil ones)[1]
Ivy veiled stone. Huge, a self contained town, secluded in the Snowflake Mountains, 400 ft across, more than 200 ft high. It has 4 aboveground levels (how many below ground).[1]
Rumours of miles of storage tunnels and catacombs.[1]
Has survived orc attacks, giant boulders, and brutal mountain winters.[1]
Is open to all as long as they do not use knowledge for baneful purposes. [1]
Has alchemy and herbalist shops, a small topiary garden. Well manicured grounds.[1]
Dedicated to Deneir and Oghma [1]
A place for study, poetry reading, painting, sculpting, and discussion.[1]
Recently recovered treatise on woodland mosses. Druids have been invited to study it.[1]
Vicero Belago, alchemist in the Edificant Library.[1]
Histra, priestess of Sune, visiting the Edificant Library, housed in the southern wing on the third floor. 41 years old, alluring, wears a crimson habit cut to show her curves.[1]
Headmaster Avery Scheil, rotund, red faced.[1]
Kierkan Rufo, 22 years old, toothy smile, matted black hair. Cadderly’s friend and rival. Likes Danica. Latest game involves getting each other into trouble[1]
Holds many scrolls written by Grandmaster Penpahg D’Ahn[3]
Severl headmasters.[2,3]
Headmaster Penelope, knows a lot about Drow, prizes here collection of art above all else, has hazel eyes.[3,6]
Brother Chaunticleer, perfect soprano voice, leads prayer song (canticles). Likes fishing. Among the most devout priests of Deneir, his job was leading the midday canticle.[3,8]
Warded so that uninvited people cannot enter by any known entrance, except for an ancient tunnel into the catacombs below the wine cellar.[5]
Mullivy, groundskeeper, dirty, stubbly face wrinkled sun-browned skin. Been groundskeeper for 4 decades.[5]
The catacombs are the original structure of the Edificant Library (it has been expanded a lot since then). The Edificant Library was originally built underground (easier to defend). A medium sized chamber in the catacombs was once the original library room.[5] Original builders were orderly and designed the catacombs and tunnels well with layered stonework (for defence).[7]
Catacombs are filled with jewelled casks and sarcophagi.[5]
The Order of Deneir.
4th floor, normally reserved for novices of the host sects (Order of Deneir, etc), servants, and for storage. Visiting druids like to be placed here as well.[9]
Priests of Ilmater at the Edificant Library, only visiting [11,16]
Half goblin servant died several years ago [12]
All priests at the library are required to train with a weapon.[12]
A small mining town once existed a few short miles (less than 10???) from the Edificant Library (now abandoned or destroyed???)[13]
The Edificant Library has been overrun twice in its history, both times the priests retreated to the cellars and held out (the heavy oaken cellar doors stopped the goblins getting in).[13]
Main doors blessed and heavily warded against undead.[14]
A year quest, a year long period of study, an honour usually given only to the top ranking priests of Deneir (usually only the high priests)[16]

Danica Maupoissant
Danica, 5 ft tall, brown eyes, shoulder length strawberry blonde hair.[3]
Owns a pair of daggers with crystal blades, one has a golden tiger’s head hilt, the other has a silver dragon hilt. Both are enchanted to make them as strong as steel.[3]
Raised in Westgate by Master Thrkel since she was 13 and her parents died. The daggers were a gift from Master Turkel.[3]
Her father Pavel, small, grey eyes, hair white at the temples. was reputedly the finest wagon maker in Westgate, originally from far eastern lands (possibly Tabot) and maybe related to Turkel Bastan. Her parents were assassinated by the Night Masks ,hired by rival wagon makers jealous of Pavel’s skills. [3,13]
Mother also called Danica, raven black hair, looked like Danica. [13]
Apprenticed aged 12 to Turkel Bastan, 80 years old at least, a potter in Westgate from the far off eastern land of Tabot. Also a Ribotan monk, a disciple of Grandmaster Penpahg D’Ahn. He trained Danica to be a monk and achieve harmony of soul and body for 6 years before declaring he could teach her no more.[3,13]
Does not trust Kierkan Rufo.

Trinity Castle
At the northeastern edge of the Snowflake Mountains, built atop an unnatural mountain spur.[2]
A dozen separate tunnels lead under the castle, and to death (trapped).[2]
A fortress for an evil brotherhood obsessed with power.[2]
For many years has desired to conquer the Shilmista Forest and the nearby settlement of Carradoon.[2]
Barjin, Most Debilitating Horror (a lesser title than Most Fatal Horror), the clerical leader of Castle Trinity, and his priests. Barjin and his priests had been at Castle Trinity for only a year. Travelled from Damara after Paladin King banished his deity (Orcus???). Claims to have encountered Talona’s avatar and she directed him to Castle Trinity. Commanded armies across the plains of Vaasa[2,15]
Barjin brought many treasures with him (artefacts of old Damara???), was welcomed by the triumvirate. Is charismatic, frowns upon worship of Talona, has not undergone scarification like many priests. Has risen to leadership of the castle clerics despite his beliefs. Lost his army, his prestige, and several magic items in his flight from Damara.[2]
Ragnor, orc faced, ogrillon, and his brutish warriors.[2]
Aballister commands 2 other wizards.[2]
Aballister, Barjin, and Ragnor make up the triumvirate that rules Castle Trinity.[2]
Haverly, young fighter, arrogant, ambitious, desires Ragnor’s position.[2]
Dorigen, female wizard, darting amber eyes, long greying black hair always unbrushed, middle aged, thin, drawn.[2,9]
Men, orcs, and a few giants serve as fighters at Castle Trinity.[2]
Barjin served another master (Witch King) in Damara as a wizard, lead an army and had many exploits in Narfell.[4]
Barjin claimed 3rd priest title within a month of arrival in Castle Trinity. Within several months he was the head priest (killed the others???)[4]
Barjin does not believe in Talona and lied about meeting her avatar during ToT.[4]
The Screaming Maiden, a magical mace owned by Barjin, it obsidian head takes the form of a pretty girl or a fanged maw opening wide (switching between the two). Forged in the lower planes (Abyss, Baator, Tarterus), hungers for blood. Terrible power. The fanged maw opens and sprouts venomous spikes when it strikes a foe. Has enchanted, purple silken robes as strong as armour. The Screaming Maiden is sentient, capable of biting at foes of its own volition, can emit a cone of frost[4,5,15]
Barjin owns a gold brazier and tripod like Aballister’s, a gem encrusted bowl of beaten platinum, a fist sized black sapphire (a necromancer’s stone used to contact and summon the dead), and an urn containing the ashes and spirit of a long dead Prince Khalif, he discovered the ashes of Prince Khalif among some ancient ruins when he was an apprentice to a long dead wizard way before his time in Vaasa. (how many of these treasures are stolen from Damara???).[4,5]
Barjin and his priests now revere the Chaos Curse elixir as if it were a high priest.[4]
A few weeks earlier a conspiracy had been discovered in Castle Trinity. Barjin persuaded the traitor to give up his co conspirators, and then bashed his skull in. (who is trying to infiltrate Castle Trinity???)[4]
Creating the Chaos Curse has depleted Castle Trinity’s resources.[4]
Ragnor joined Castle Trinity 5 years ago after the elves of Shilmista defeated his tribe and drove the refugees far from the wood.[4]

Ivan and Pikel Bouldershoulder
Dwarf brothers, yellow beards.[3]
Pikel is several years older than Ivan, dyes his beard and braids it into his hair so it hangs over his shoulder and down his back.[3]
Pikel likes druids, wears sandals (a gift from Newander).[3]
Pikel is the cook at the Edificant Library.[3]
Originally hail from the Galena Mountains.[3]
Had been at the Edificant Library for over a decade.
Gave up adventuring long ago, have armour dusty from decades of idleness. Ivan wields an axe, Pikel a four foot long black club [11,12]

Shilmista
Elf prince Elbereth, skilled warrior and archer, owns a finely crafted sword. [Epilogue]
Elves of Shilmista are not numerous, their magic is on the wane.[Epilogue]
Elves fought a scouting party of trained and armoured bugbears.[Epilogue]

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6026 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2020 :  12:33:09  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Canticle took a while to get through, and i can't be certain i got the chapter numbers correct because my copy didnt have a table of contents or any chapter numbers.

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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2263 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2020 :  03:13:52  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Dallison,

First of all: thank you for your endeavors in this regard!

I will make a humble request to tear into Tymora's Luck with great zeal! ;)

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe

434 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2020 :  04:08:07  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Canticle took a while to get through, and i can't be certain i got the chapter numbers correct because my copy didnt have a table of contents or any chapter numbers.


My heart.... my heart bleeds for that, damn. That sounds so painfull..

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