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loldrup
Acolyte

5 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  08:08:22  Show Profile Send loldrup a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Illefarn is said to have existed since -22900 DR ( http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Illefarn )
Yet their capital Aelinthaldaar wasn't founded until -8500 DR ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illefarn )

What did they use as "capital" until they got Aelinthaldaar going?

A few 'notable locations' of Illefarn is mentioned on the forgottenrealms.wikia page:

Capital: Aelinthaldaar
Ardeep: Ardeep Forest
Iliyanbruen: Neverwinter Wood
Rilithar: Kryptgarden Forest
Illefarn Mountain
The Laughing Hollow
Arvahn

Did any of these locations serve as their primary place more than others? Which of these places was most capital-ish?

Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  09:02:44  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Never noticed that before, good spot.

If i remember rightly illefarn was occupied and annexed by the vyshaan empire and its original capital may have been razed during that time or abandoned after the occupation.

Capitals are also changed regularly in real world history so perhaps with every dynastic change there may be a capital change.

And last of all is certain elven subraces (wild and possibly wood) may have been more nomadic which means the capital moved with the ruling clan. I dont know if we know what the racial mix of illefarn qas before the crown wars but that mix may have determined why we have no defined location for a capital until moon elves became more dominant.

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The Masked Mage
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USA
2396 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  09:09:13  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is because Illefarn had a couple of incarnations. Aelinthaldaar was for the newer one. I don't think we know much about the older one due to the name confusions.
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loldrup
Acolyte

5 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  16:42:00  Show Profile Send loldrup a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps there simply isn't much lore about Illefarn before -8500 DR?

The only bit of lore I've found is that "In -11800 DR secret safe havens were provided to former Miyeritari citizens by elves of Illefarn" ( http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Illefarn ).

Can we agree that there simply isn't much lore to find?

That's okay with me - it means I can make stuff up without risking conflict with existing lore sources that are unknown to me ;)
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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
2288 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  17:50:01  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wasn't Illefarn originally a city, before becoming a kingdom?

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Markustay
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  19:30:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Since Eric isn't around (in these halls) anymore, I would imagine Krash will be along to give more details. I could... but its not my place (or my lore) to do so.

There were several iterations of Illefarn. It was a kingdom, part of a couple of kingdoms (IIRC), and then its own kingdom again (don't quote me on all of that, but it did go something like that - I am purposely avoiding referencing Under Illefarn Anew).

At least one of the iterations was a multi-cultural thing that included humans, dwarves, halflings, and gnomes. That fell apart, and then it was just humans and elves for a time (IIRC). It was also know as the Realm of Five Crowns, and also the Fallen Kingdom (once again, IIRC). The Shining Vale (lands surrounding Daggerford) was once considered the 'human element'. The Moorsedge Keeps (in the High Moor) were once part of the dwarven element (and BTW, Dragonspear itself was a refurbished Moorsedge Keep, which is why it connects to the fallen dwarven settlement of Kanaglym and the gnomish settlement of Rivergem). 'The Shining Kingdom' was HUGE at its highest point.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 19 Feb 2018 19:31:50
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The Masked Mage
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USA
2396 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  21:09:14  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The House of Stone was also of that multipart kingdom... That all is WAY later though. Post Crown Wars later, not first flowering time at all.
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 19 Feb 2018 :  23:55:22  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-You'll notice, this is a common thing regarding all those ancient Elven empires. Combined with the fact that there's only a limited amount of information about them, many also had different "eras" (ie, small settlements that eventually grew, different leaderships, revived by other parties, and so on).

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Hoondatha
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USA
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Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  03:38:51  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Did Eric decide to leave Candlekeep? If so, I missed it, and will be duly sad now...

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  05:02:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
He didn't leave Candlekeep - he got a new job a little over a year ago, and had to move as part of that, and the new house needed work, so he's spent all this time "doing real-life stuff". New home, family, new job - its keeping him too busy ATM for him to do anything else.

I'm still waiting over a year (probably going on two years now) for him to get back to me about releasing the High Forest Map. But I won't nag him about it because I know what he has on his plate.

You know what the real shame here is? Both he and Ed were churning out lore just a couple of years ago like crazy, and just before WotC starts this DMsGulid thing (where all of that could have found a home), both of them got busy with other things. Just terrible timing is all - all that great stuff the two of the were producing (some of which I've seen) could be on the DMsGuild now.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2018 05:04:48
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6498 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  14:21:25  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The capital of Illefarn was never mentioned in any sources until Roger E Moore did his Perilous Gateways - "Voices of the Lost" web article series (which can still be found on the WotC site with a bit of digging). All of a sudden I had to account for Illefarn having its capital at the site of present-day Waterdeep. I named it and dated it in my North Timeline.

The date I chose was due to a few factors. Firstly, I didn't think that Illefarn's capital would have been in the same place for over 20 millennia given the Crown Wars. Therefore, the dates I came up with for my North Timeline (subsequently adopted in Lost Empires of Faerūn and Grand History of the Realms) were a reflection of the fact that Illefarn only came away from Vyshaan control in -9000 DR. Knowing that elves do things slowly, I thought 5 centuries was sufficient time for them to pick a place and build a capital. I always knew that I would have to come up with a pre-Vyshaan capital, but never got around to it.

So where was Illefarn's capital before -9000 DR? The sources don't tell us and likely never will. So, if you'll indulge me, here is my take: The capital of Illefarn before the Vyshaan destroyed it in c. -9900 was located at the site of present-day Conyberry. The Auglathlas were the ruling family of Illefarn at the time and slain to an elf by the ruthless Vyshaan. The Banshee of the Neverwinter Wood is the undead remnant of the last queen (her title was Iyilitara) Maerindra. The site was razed by High Magic and so no actual remnant of the city remains.

And if you'll indulge me one last time, my name for the city is Iilorivaedon (literally "place of peace and light").

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 20 Feb 2018 14:24:42
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
6090 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  14:24:16  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Awesome lore as always, going in my archive for future use.

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sleyvas
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USA
11267 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  14:26:25  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Never really thought about it before, but with a name like Ilefarn and the neverwinter area being known as Iliyanbruen..... I wonder if it had ties to the Ilythiiri which changed out over several millennia with other races arriving... After all before Aryvandaar "annexed" it in -9900 DR, there were also Llewyrr there (and the neverwinter wood was called the Llewyrrwood). The "green elves" which joined them could very well have been from Ilythiir, as it would have been 300 years after the arrival of the Ilythiiri.

BTW, read this canon article on the web about Ilefarn and its portals by Roger E. Moore

http://wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20010131b

I submit based on this section from it that the idea we were having about some portal network connecting the Moonshaes, Neverwinter wood, Shandaular area in the council Hills, Shandaular area in the Ashanath area... and possibly some other areas like the Ajmer forest above Ulgarth, and maybe some areas down in the shining south, the vast, etc... Interestingly, note that a lot of these portals used song magic to open them. Also, not all of these portals need be in the same "network". In fact, its noted that there are in fact 3 "networks" of Ilefarn's portals that still exist. So, maybe the one in council hills and Ashanath has a third termination in Ruathym (and maybe long ago the elves of Ilefarn dwelt on Ruathym when Ruathym was still part of Faerun prior to the elven sundering in -17600 DR). This may be WHY there's a portal from say the council hills to Ruathym.... its how the Ilythiiri traveled north to meet with the elves of Ardeep and create Ilefarn. A second separate portal network may be the one from Llewyrrwood/Neverwinter wood to the Moonshaes and maybe the Ajmer Forest of Ulgarth (because the Leshay are noted in both the Moonshaes and interacting with the Imaskari). The third portal network??? No clue.



Illefarn possessed numerous portals, but not to the extent that Myth Drannor later knew. This proved to be Illefarn's blessing, as it was not invaded (as was Myth Drannor) by extradimensional monstrosities who turned the vast number of interplanar portals to their own advantage. In addition, Illefarn's portals were nearly all teleportation devices joined to other places on Toril, not true gate spells leading to other worlds or planes. The natural world and its endless cycles were Illefarn's focus, and the elves believed the living world would go on forever. Still, Illefarn's elves understood that their kingdom, grand as it was, would eventually fall and be forgotten. Their weighty consideration of history, time, and divination magic revealed no other outcome. This news provoked a melancholy that influenced much of Illefarn's art and literature, even touching the architecture of Illefarn's dwarves, who carved somber visages on their statues. Militarism was never strong in philosophical Illefarn. Though its armies were excellent, Illefarn relied on diplomacy and astute political maneuvering (aided by divination spells) to keep peace with its neighbors.
One of the more esoteric uses of portals in Illefarn was for artistic purposes, particularly for what the elves called song paths. Great works of poetry were written so that they could be sung for hours at a time, and portal networks were created that would be activated as each singer walked over certain large, flat, enchanted stones set in the ground. The singer would be transported from place to place in rhythm with the song, the scenery in keeping with its message and tone. Minor portal systems, independent of each other, were created linking numerous spots in Illefarn's vast forest and the lands around it. Few song paths spread farther than this, and many were purposefully deactivated after a few decades of use. Those few portal systems reaching well beyond Illefarn were the province of the occasional mage, sage, or priest who investigated the larger world around.

<snip to lower in the same article>
Only three portal networks of Illefarn have survived to the present day. The least of them is described here. One of Illefarn's most famous song paths was not deactivated when the kingdom was abandoned. The elven noble in charge of disenchanting this song path could not bear to carry out his orders, and instead he simply took with him all available copies of the poetic work that activated the portal system so that no one but the elves would make use of the portals. He further separated all copies of the poem into smaller parts, so no whole version of it remained in existence, then scattered them across various elven libraries. This song path was called "Voices of the Lost" after the song that activated it, the song that the portal system was meant to showcase. It fell into disuse for millennia, completely forgotten* until now.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6498 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  14:37:04  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My view has always been that the portal network between Ruathym, the Council Hills and Shandaular was created by the Ba'etith and pre-dated the elves. You'll note that GHotR doesn't give a Faerūnian location for the grand aerie of Viakoo on Mount Havraquoar other than to note that it is "in the west". I've always wondered whether Viakoo wasn't located on present-day Ruathym with the aearee coming there from continents further to the west. Just my 2 cp.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 20 Feb 2018 14:47:21
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11267 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  14:40:16  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BTW, for those interested in elven histories.... check out the work of Phasai aka Snowblood (which if anyone knows his true name, I'd love for him to get credit... he did really good stuff).

https://phasai.deviantart.com/art/Illefarn-of-the-Lost-Voices-140974708

It is NOT canon, but it draws heavily on canon. He has several PDF's for the various elven communities up on DeviantArt. You will also see where George got some of what he just posted as well. Hmmm, on that Rilithar and the westwood... Ruathym... maybe could work. Based on the lore in that PDF, I'd agree with the concept that the idea of a capital moved with time.

from said NON-CANON source
-22800 DR
At the first Conclave of Lords Savrael Moonglaemer is elected the first Iylitar of the newly independent realm of Illefarn, that at this stage is just a loose collection of villages and clan holdings around the newly established city of Sarthandor (Sword Mountains to north bank of Dessarin River)

-22650 DR
The Green Elf community of Everanshee, (Westwood) is founded as the population of Sarthandor begins to swell with newly arrived Green, Dark, Star, Ghost and Moon migrants from Aryvandaar. It becomes the seat of Illefarn’s Armathors and Duskblades. The principality of Rilithar is proclaimed.

-22300 DR
Green, Moon and Ghost Elf Selu’taar establish a High Magic circle north of Illefarns border, joining a Dark and Green
Elf community already living there, they lay down a mythal renaming the place in honour of the Dark Elven Laranlas who established the colony, Illyanna Melarn, Myth Iliyannar (Longsaddle) is born. The principality of Iliyanbruen is created.
-22245 DR
Iyilitar Savrael Moonglaemer passes peacefully onto Arvanaith whilst out riding with his family through the Starmorn meadows, later after much deliberation the Conclave chooses his fourth daughter Sheaern Moonglaemer to become the new Iyilitar.
-21763 DR
Iyilitar Sheaern Moonglaemer dies suddenly of an unknown illness that devastates many families within the city. After isolating the cause (a noxious species rat of Feywild), Sheaern’s niece, Tell’aran Moonglaemer becomes Iyilitar upon the death of her aunt.
-21698 DR
Iyilitar Tell’aran Moonglaemer opens negotiations with the southern realms of Orishaar and Ilythiir by sailing south to talk with their rulers over trade in timbers, metals, gems, manufactured goods, horses and most importantly, spices.
-21548 DR
A horde of orcs and gnolls lead by a fiendish frost giant named Hrothgar Ullaefson pours out of the Sword Mountains and lays siege to Aluvindaar, Tell’aran Moonglaemer leads the forces of Illefarn, along with Moon Elf knights of Ardeep led by Laranlor Arytha Taurntyrith. The climactic battle at Aluv’s Ford sees the horde of nearly 90000 beings driven into the raging waters of the Dessarin River, and drowned by the druid summoned water elementals.
-21156 DR
Shyraeia Kilvarin Ghost/Green Elf leads Green, Ghost and Moon Elf clans migrating from Aryvandaar north of the Sword Mountains, establishing the settlement of Sharandar (Conyberry). Amongst the first acts of the Clan Selu’taar is to raise a theur-crystal and granite, many spired fortress to protect the fledgling settlement against the roving bands of orcs, goblins, gnolls and trolls





Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6498 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  14:45:23  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, for those interested in elven histories.... check out the work of Phasai aka Snowblood (which if anyone knows his true name, I'd love for him to get credit... he did really good stuff).

https://phasai.deviantart.com/art/Illefarn-of-the-Lost-Voices-140974708

It is NOT canon, but it draws heavily on canon. He has several PDF's for the various elven communities up on DeviantArt. You will also see where George got some of what he just posted as well.



Just to be clear, I've never read any of Snowblood's work - not that it isn't deserving of being read by all accounts. That was a conscious decision on my part as I didn't want to plagiarise any of his stuff unconsciously when doing my own thing re the elven realms of Faerūn. If there are parts of his work that reflect some of the stuff that I say or have said, then he's got that material from me, and not vice versa. I was the one who stated that the ruler of Illefarn's title was Iyilitar in my GHotR sidebar for the Descent of the Drow (-10000 DR).

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6090 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  14:59:01  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ooh, and some aearee lore that could be used as a possible explanation for that norse world tree placement in ruathym in 4e.

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loldrup
Acolyte

5 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  19:43:32  Show Profile Send loldrup a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos


So where was Illefarn's capital before -9000 DR? The sources don't tell us and likely never will. So, if you'll indulge me, here is my take: The capital of Illefarn before the Vyshaan destroyed it in c. -9900 was located at the site of present-day Conyberry. The Auglathlas were the ruling family of Illefarn at the time and slain to an elf by the ruthless Vyshaan. The Banshee of the Neverwinter Wood is the undead remnant of the last queen (her title was Iyilitara) Maerindra. The site was razed by High Magic and so no actual remnant of the city remains.

And if you'll indulge me one last time, my name for the city is Iilorivaedon (literally "place of peace and light").



What does it mean to be 'slain to an elf'?
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6090 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  19:50:41  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Assuming this is a genuine inquiry then slain to an elf is an elvish form of the real world saying "slain to a man" which if english is not your primary tongue means that all of them were killed so there are no auglathlas of illefarn left alive (there are some undead though it would seem)

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loldrup
Acolyte

5 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  19:54:52  Show Profile Send loldrup a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos


So where was Illefarn's capital before -9000 DR? The sources don't tell us and likely never will. So, if you'll indulge me, here is my take: The capital of Illefarn before the Vyshaan destroyed it in c. -9900 was located at the site of present-day Conyberry.



Why would they place the capital at the very northern border of their empire?

To quote wikipedia:
"...stretching from the present-day Kryptgarden Forest to the Trollbark Forest"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illefarn

Conyberry lies west/north-west of Kryptgarden Forest, as can be seen here:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Agatha
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loldrup
Acolyte

5 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  19:58:44  Show Profile Send loldrup a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Assuming this is a genuine inquiry then slain to an elf is an elvish form of the real world saying "slain to a man" which if english is not your primary tongue means that all of them were killed so there are no auglathlas of illefarn left alive (there are some undead though it would seem)



Thanks
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  20:02:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, for those interested in elven histories.... check out the work of Phasai aka Snowblood (which if anyone knows his true name, I'd love for him to get credit... he did really good stuff).

https://phasai.deviantart.com/art/Illefarn-of-the-Lost-Voices-140974708

It is NOT canon, but it draws heavily on canon. He has several PDF's for the various elven communities up on DeviantArt. You will also see where George got some of what he just posted as well.



Just to be clear, I've never read any of Snowblood's work - not that it isn't deserving of being read by all accounts. That was a conscious decision on my part as I didn't want to plagiarise any of his stuff unconsciously when doing my own thing re the elven realms of Faerūn. If there are parts of his work that reflect some of the stuff that I say or have said, then he's got that material from me, and not vice versa. I was the one who stated that the ruler of Illefarn's title was Iyilitar in my GHotR sidebar for the Descent of the Drow (-10000 DR).

-- George Krashos

Same here. I was going to base some of my Imaskar stuff on what he did, but then I decided his stuff might influence mine. What I may do is read his after I have a rough draft of my own completed (which may never happen), and THEN cherry-pick his stuff to tweak my own (and I've already discussed this with him, a LONG time ago, and he was fine with that).

My biggest concern with history and lore is plausibility and RW science (despite "it's magic!" being an all-to common reasoning for stuff). For example, PLEASE don't ever stick Underdark stuff anywhere near volcanoes or any sort of geothermal activity (Hotsprings, etc.) In regards to Imaskar - even if the desert was cuased by magic, I still have to ask why? Magic has its own logic, and unless the Imaskari and/or the Mulan gods cast a very specific epic spell called "make all the water go away and never return", I have to assume the magic affected some natural phenomena which is keeping the once-fertile basin dry. (or, conversely, that magic was involved originally, perhaps even pre-Imaskar, making the region fertile, and that was disrupted... which probably makes more sense, given the rest of the history I have cobbled together).

Thus, any historic map I do for the region would include a very large lake and intricate river-system. This whole "it looked the same but green" thing others have done (I'm looking at YOU, GHotR maps!) is ignorant.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36254 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  20:07:59  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by loldrup

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos


So where was Illefarn's capital before -9000 DR? The sources don't tell us and likely never will. So, if you'll indulge me, here is my take: The capital of Illefarn before the Vyshaan destroyed it in c. -9900 was located at the site of present-day Conyberry.



Why would they place the capital at the very northern border of their empire?

To quote wikipedia:
"...stretching from the present-day Kryptgarden Forest to the Trollbark Forest"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illefarn

Conyberry lies west/north-west of Kryptgarden Forest, as can be seen here:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Agatha



It could have been the most prominent or a highly prominent city already, or it was one of the original cities that everything else spread out from.

Just look around at the real world. A lot of capitals are in odd, non-centralized locations.

Besides, going that angle gives a reason for a banshee with a distinctly non-elven name to be hanging out in an odd location.

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
6090 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  20:19:51  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, for those interested in elven histories.... check out the work of Phasai aka Snowblood (which if anyone knows his true name, I'd love for him to get credit... he did really good stuff).

https://phasai.deviantart.com/art/Illefarn-of-the-Lost-Voices-140974708

It is NOT canon, but it draws heavily on canon. He has several PDF's for the various elven communities up on DeviantArt. You will also see where George got some of what he just posted as well.



Just to be clear, I've never read any of Snowblood's work - not that it isn't deserving of being read by all accounts. That was a conscious decision on my part as I didn't want to plagiarise any of his stuff unconsciously when doing my own thing re the elven realms of Faerūn. If there are parts of his work that reflect some of the stuff that I say or have said, then he's got that material from me, and not vice versa. I was the one who stated that the ruler of Illefarn's title was Iyilitar in my GHotR sidebar for the Descent of the Drow (-10000 DR).

-- George Krashos

Same here. I was going to base some of my Imaskar stuff on what he did, but then I decided his stuff might influence mine. What I may do is read his after I have a rough draft of my own completed (which may never happen), and THEN cherry-pick his stuff to tweak my own (and I've already discussed this with him, a LONG time ago, and he was fine with that).

My biggest concern with history and lore is plausibility and RW science (despite "it's magic!" being an all-to common reasoning for stuff). For example, PLEASE don't ever stick Underdark stuff anywhere near volcanoes or any sort of geothermal activity (Hotsprings, etc.) In regards to Imaskar - even if the desert was cuased by magic, I still have to ask why? Magic has its own logic, and unless the Imaskari and/or the Mulan gods cast a very specific epic spell called "make all the water go away and never return", I have to assume the magic affected some natural phenomena which is keeping the once-fertile basin dry. (or, conversely, that magic was involved originally, perhaps even pre-Imaskar, making the region fertile, and that was disrupted... which probably makes more sense, given the rest of the history I have cobbled together).

Thus, any historic map I do for the region would include a very large lake and intricate river-system. This whole "it looked the same but green" thing others have done (I'm looking at YOU, GHotR maps!) is ignorant.



Its the honking great whirlwind of destruction that continually whirls across the region. Those 200 mph winds will erode anything after a hundred years and its had thousands to strip everything down to dust. At least that's what I'm doing with it.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  20:24:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

My view has always been that the portal network between Ruathym, the Council Hills and Shandaular was created by the Ba'etith and pre-dated the elves. You'll note that GHotR doesn't give a Faerūnian location for the grand aerie of Viakoo on Mount Havraquoar other than to note that it is "in the west". I've always wondered whether Viakoo wasn't located on present-day Ruathym with the aearee coming there from continents further to the west. Just my 2 cp.
Just a local 'node' of a MUCH larger network, eh? (*cough* Road of Stars & Shadows *cough*)

My thoughts here is that the Batrachi, Sarrukh, and Aeree all had their own networks (which likely tapped into something more natural, like a Weave/Leylines thing), and when the Ba'etith started working together, the Batrachi (being the best at it) made modifications so that they could easily cross from one network to another, using the proper components (mostly verbal, but somatic and even material components - 'Keys' - may have been required for some places).

The thing that folks like Elminster, Larloch, and probably Halaster know that most others don't is that you can use any portal/gate to access any other permanent translocation platform, if you know 'the formula'. The Imaskari likely discovered this (hence Halaster's superior knowledge), and built massive Stargate-like devices that you could just 'dial-in' your desired destination. We actually saw Elminster do this in Elminster's Daughter; in fact, he changed his destination mid-travel (and I think even Larloch and Halaster would be VERY impressed by that).

The RoS&S is kind of like the NY subway system. To those unfamiliar with it, its a frightening, over-complicated mess, and you can very easily get lost (and end up somewhere where no-one ever finds you again... so NYC is VERY much a 'dungeon' LOL). To those that use it every day, its like second nature (those people are like the Imaskari), and they know how to 'tweak' their routes to get to where they want efficiently. Thus, with known 'portal networks' (like the one you've mentioned above), those are ones that have just been left on a preset set of coordinates, and without any sort of controller, they often have random glitches (they are trying to 'figure out' where the person wants to go without the person providing the proper 'sequence' of components). They are basically on 'auto-pilot', and stuck that way until an Imaskari portal-Lord (or a Batrachi Archificer) comes along and 'fixes' it. Some fey - especially archfey - can temporarily commandeer any gate and use it to go to and from Faerie (their own 'essence' acts as the correct 'key'). UNLESS the Gate is purposely warded against such a usage.

Just more of my 'random thoughts' I've had over the years, because I have found too many 'weirdnesses' regarding Gates/Portals for that 'tech' to be set in stone, as people think it is. Especially in Ed's writings... and he created the system.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2018 20:26:46
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36254 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  20:58:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

In regards to Imaskar - even if the desert was cuased by magic, I still have to ask why? Magic has its own logic, and unless the Imaskari and/or the Mulan gods cast a very specific epic spell called "make all the water go away and never return", I have to assume the magic affected some natural phenomena which is keeping the once-fertile basin dry.



My assumption is that the magic created the original, dry conditions, and those dry conditions changed the local weather patterns. Once the magic was taken out of the picture, the land was already dry and the weather had already changed -- so it became self-sustaining.

It's like drying a wet piece of cloth. That cloth may have initially been in water, but when you take it out of the water, it's going to dry. And as long as it stays in its new, non-watery locale, it's going to stay dry.


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The Masked Mage
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USA
2396 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  21:21:18  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Couple alternate possibilities:

1) Perhaps their magic had an unintended defiling effect like Dark Sun

2) Perhaps they chose to take the sources of water elsewhere. They have numerous demiplanes as well as Deep Imaskar. Perhaps they stole the water in a sort of short-cut to making those places capable of long term sustenance. This would then feed into Wooly's dry condition scenario.

3) Perhaps the Imaskari were the original creators of the Lifedrain and Draindoom magics of the phaerimm - or other similar magics - with the alternate explanation that they were draining the life from the land in order to power their magical creations. This is kind of a combination of the previous two possibilities.

4) Perhaps the Imaskari transplanted the land that was Imaskar into their little dimensions - bodies of water and all - piece by piece. These pieces then became "earthmotes" floating about huge demiplanes. They ripped it all away and left only bedrock and substrate in their magic's wake. Over a thousand years this became a desert.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  22:49:26  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

In regards to Imaskar - even if the desert was cuased by magic, I still have to ask why? Magic has its own logic, and unless the Imaskari and/or the Mulan gods cast a very specific epic spell called "make all the water go away and never return", I have to assume the magic affected some natural phenomena which is keeping the once-fertile basin dry.



My assumption is that the magic created the original, dry conditions, and those dry conditions changed the local weather patterns. Once the magic was taken out of the picture, the land was already dry and the weather had already changed -- so it became self-sustaining.

It's like drying a wet piece of cloth. That cloth may have initially been in water, but when you take it out of the water, it's going to dry. And as long as it stays in its new, non-watery locale, it's going to stay dry.
But that's not how weather - or any 'natural process' - works. Once you remove the artificial stimulant, it will revert. Irrigation canals are just one tiny version of that; the islands the crazy Kuwaiti built are a major example (they are finding the sea is 'taking them all back').

The Raurin is a 'basin' (its been called the Raurindi Basin in canon). Thats a depression - a place where water collects. Ergo, I surmise a big lake must have existed, and the capitol was located on it. If you look at any map of ancient cultures, you'll see all the major settlements where always near sources of water - mostly rivers, but many on the coast as well (at the mouths of rivers, usually). Back before plumbing, this was THE primary concern. From this lake (the 'collection point' for water) came at least one major river. Now, this may have had the same name as the river that took its place - The Athis, from Desert of Desolation. I surmise that the survivor states managed to keep themselves viable for some centuries by artificially providing the waters to the dry river bed that the lake used to provide for (because that's pretty much exactly what DoD says).

I wanted to say the mountain range to the south - The Dustwall was created as a direct result of the God war, because that would totally explain the weather change and why the 'basin' no longer collects water. But because of the stupid Gate of Iron, I CAN'T say that. I wish I could just ignore that one piece of lore - it would make everything so much easier.

So now I am left with two options. One works very well but goes much deeper into my personal homebrew - the Taan region was the old 'stomping grounds' of the Realms fey. There is a LOT of evidence to this effect. I think the Fey cast some sort of uber-ritual during the days of thunder, and created their own little 'paradise'. I think it had to do with warming Yal Tengri (The Great Ice Sea), thus melting the ice (providing tons of moisture to the region) and also warming the surrounding lands. I think the (canon) Mountain of Iron has something to do with this (perhaps a center-point/focus). And the battle between the gods and Imaskari disrupted that ancient magic, and the land has now returned to how it was meant to be.

A less obtrusive and more realistic version would be much simpler, and only require a little bit of lore-hacking. The actual center-point fr the basin is Gbor Nor (Brightstar Lake), which makes a lot of sense when you stare at the (non-3e) maps long enough. A major river(The Athis?) branched off of that, and ran south (creating at least one decent sized lake), and off of that we had an entire river system/basin going on all over the Raurin. IN FACT, The Athis River - which was dried up at the time of 2e - ran THROUGH the Dustwall Mountains - its all part of the DOD adventure path, You follow that dry river to get to the various adventure sites. So if the original (theoretical) Athis River followed the same path as the later, artificial one (and there would be no reason for the survivor-states to have done otherwise), then we have clear evidence of a river system that is defunct because of the Imaskari God War.

And I think THAT is the way I would go if I ever got around to writing it all up. Its simpler than involving some ancient, broken mythal-like regional effect. Picture the Plains of Purple Dust (right now) as a very large, shallow crater (caused by the conflict). Craters have 'walls'. Sure, on a global scale they may not even show up on maps, but there should be enough of an incline around the perimeter to cause any water that once leeched off of the Gbor Nor to no longer do so. It wouldn't take much - slow incline of fifty feet or more spread over 300 miles; even if it was 100', that would still only be an incline of 1' every THREE MILES - not even visible with the naked eye! And we get up around the Gbor Nor - which does appear to be somewhat wrapping around a very large circle near the bottom - and we have cliffs there, where the water meats the 'desert' (this is the part that isn't canon, but by putting cliffs there, we resolve EVERYTHING).

Something like this. It's very rough - Inupras should be a tad more south, and that means the red circle would be bigger. I just wanted you guys to see what I am talking about.

Then the water is 'stuck', and like water will always do as it collects, it will find the easiest path to the sea - in this case, going down the Rauthenflow. I think maybe only half that river existed - the tributaries flowed into Gbor Nor, but then water began traveling the other way (back-flow) down the Rauthenflow as the lake exceeded its normal boundaries, and carved-out the western end of the river (which is why we still had rapids there 2e/3e, and waterfalls, etc - now its a clear path). All the water that used to empty in the Golden Waters (and then into the Great Sea) now dumps into the Sea of Fallen Stars (which also 'wasn't always there', and THAT is canon). This could mean the SoFS has risen slightly since the days of Imaskar (which would lead to such things as the widening of the Lis, etc.).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2018 22:55:43
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  22:57:11  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, did I go off-topic! DAMN... APOLOGIES.

On-topic:
Elves are NOT humans, they may not build - or think of things - in the same ways we do. Perhaps a capital 'outside' (or on the edge) of a nation isn't strange to them at all. There are MANY countries where the capital is nowhere near 'the center' (like Washinton D.C). We really can't be sure of what was considered 'Illefarn' at the time the capitol was where Conyberry is now.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2018 23:02:33
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11267 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2018 :  00:57:25  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, for those interested in elven histories.... check out the work of Phasai aka Snowblood (which if anyone knows his true name, I'd love for him to get credit... he did really good stuff).

https://phasai.deviantart.com/art/Illefarn-of-the-Lost-Voices-140974708

It is NOT canon, but it draws heavily on canon. He has several PDF's for the various elven communities up on DeviantArt. You will also see where George got some of what he just posted as well.



Just to be clear, I've never read any of Snowblood's work - not that it isn't deserving of being read by all accounts. That was a conscious decision on my part as I didn't want to plagiarise any of his stuff unconsciously when doing my own thing re the elven realms of Faerūn. If there are parts of his work that reflect some of the stuff that I say or have said, then he's got that material from me, and not vice versa. I was the one who stated that the ruler of Illefarn's title was Iyilitar in my GHotR sidebar for the Descent of the Drow (-10000 DR).

-- George Krashos



Actually, I was thinking the part about Conyberry... never heard of it before, but maybe its in something else like LEoF. Or maybe its one some map.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11267 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2018 :  01:04:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

My view has always been that the portal network between Ruathym, the Council Hills and Shandaular was created by the Ba'etith and pre-dated the elves. You'll note that GHotR doesn't give a Faerūnian location for the grand aerie of Viakoo on Mount Havraquoar other than to note that it is "in the west". I've always wondered whether Viakoo wasn't located on present-day Ruathym with the aearee coming there from continents further to the west. Just my 2 cp.
Just a local 'node' of a MUCH larger network, eh? (*cough* Road of Stars & Shadows *cough*)

My thoughts here is that the Batrachi, Sarrukh, and Aeree all had their own networks (which likely tapped into something more natural, like a Weave/Leylines thing), and when the Ba'etith started working together, the Batrachi (being the best at it) made modifications so that they could easily cross from one network to another, using the proper components (mostly verbal, but somatic and even material components - 'Keys' - may have been required for some places).

The thing that folks like Elminster, Larloch, and probably Halaster know that most others don't is that you can use any portal/gate to access any other permanent translocation platform, if you know 'the formula'. The Imaskari likely discovered this (hence Halaster's superior knowledge), and built massive Stargate-like devices that you could just 'dial-in' your desired destination. We actually saw Elminster do this in Elminster's Daughter; in fact, he changed his destination mid-travel (and I think even Larloch and Halaster would be VERY impressed by that).

The RoS&S is kind of like the NY subway system. To those unfamiliar with it, its a frightening, over-complicated mess, and you can very easily get lost (and end up somewhere where no-one ever finds you again... so NYC is VERY much a 'dungeon' LOL). To those that use it every day, its like second nature (those people are like the Imaskari), and they know how to 'tweak' their routes to get to where they want efficiently. Thus, with known 'portal networks' (like the one you've mentioned above), those are ones that have just been left on a preset set of coordinates, and without any sort of controller, they often have random glitches (they are trying to 'figure out' where the person wants to go without the person providing the proper 'sequence' of components). They are basically on 'auto-pilot', and stuck that way until an Imaskari portal-Lord (or a Batrachi Archificer) comes along and 'fixes' it. Some fey - especially archfey - can temporarily commandeer any gate and use it to go to and from Faerie (their own 'essence' acts as the correct 'key'). UNLESS the Gate is purposely warded against such a usage.

Just more of my 'random thoughts' I've had over the years, because I have found too many 'weirdnesses' regarding Gates/Portals for that 'tech' to be set in stone, as people think it is. Especially in Ed's writings... and he created the system.



It very well could be this, and then the elves turn around and take over this portal network, but they put their own stamp on it.... they change the means by which you open it by "keying" them to song magic. Thus, the batrachi may have intertwined other folks networks, and then the elves simply "put a new lock on the doorway" and called it their own.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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