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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  02:38:26  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I won't be expanding on Velsharoon when I work on Mellifleur, as there's already a write-up for him, and the events that I would mention regarding Mellifleur would be both old and non-concrete. I don't plan to say any specific event was involved in the creation of Mellifleur, only that certain events may have been.

One of the issues with merging Mellifleur and Velsharoon is that Mellifleru is multispheric and more powerful--there's little reason to believe Velsharoon would be the dominant personality. IMO, if one were subsumed, it would be Velsharoon.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
763 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  02:46:42  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Isn't the only thing linking the two that Velsharoon has used "Mellifleur" as an alias? I had just imagined that Velsharoon performs the same sort of divine role on Toril as Mellifleur does on other planes, and sometimes uses the name of Mellifleur to try and riff off some of the older god's glory. We have other examples of gods on Toril doing this sort of thing - we know Umberlee sometimes grants spells under the alias Panzuriel to make use of that gods' worshippers, as Panzuriel is not active on Toril.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1443 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  05:10:32  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My own personal thoughts are that the two powers have a decent working relatioonship; Mellifleur uses Veelsharoon's name to deflect attention from his own enemies, while Velsharoon uses the older god's name to break into the untapped worship of new prime worlds and get out from under Mystra's thumb as a single sphere power. He'll probably end up as a general power of necromancy, in particular black necromancy.

Worship isn't actually that necessary for a god to maintain his deific strength. Urdlen and Kanchelsis are both Intermediate Powers on par with Lolth, and Kanchy in particular has no priests. Likewise, Mellifleur has no priests, but teaches prospective and worthy candidates for lichdom. Evening Glory is effectively the goddess of necrophilia and she's a lesser power.
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sleyvas
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USA
11217 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  15:56:27  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Isn't the only thing linking the two that Velsharoon has used "Mellifleur" as an alias? I had just imagined that Velsharoon performs the same sort of divine role on Toril as Mellifleur does on other planes, and sometimes uses the name of Mellifleur to try and riff off some of the older god's glory. We have other examples of gods on Toril doing this sort of thing - we know Umberlee sometimes grants spells under the alias Panzuriel to make use of that gods' worshippers, as Panzuriel is not active on Toril.



Right, so in theory, whatever hold Mellifleur had in Toril is gone. His separate "deific energy" here doesn't necessarily copy back to the other versions of him in other crystal spheres. So, if Velsharoon subsumes it (or is subsumed by it... or they merge... or they separately control it... or godly schizophrenia occurs... or whatever weird cosmic thing happened), the other "Mellifleurs" elsewhere aren't affected. Just like Tyr being blinded in the realms doesn't blind him elsewhere, nor does his "death" in the realms mean he died elsewhere.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1443 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2017 :  08:46:35  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or Mellifleur isn't worshiped in Toril. Really, Mellifleur isn't worshipped anywhere. Neither is Kanchelsis.

Mellifleur seems to be making a name for himself as a mentor-figure for liches, while Kanchelsis draws power from vampires and vampirism. Chances are that liches deviated to Myrkul, Jergal and other undead-friendly deities before Velsharoon's ascension. It could explain why Velsharoon's using Mellifleur's name; Ao's decree constrains him, so he's looking into ways to expand as a multispheric deity of black necromancy.
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sleyvas
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USA
11217 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  02:38:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Or Mellifleur isn't worshiped in Toril. Really, Mellifleur isn't worshipped anywhere. Neither is Kanchelsis.

Mellifleur seems to be making a name for himself as a mentor-figure for liches, while Kanchelsis draws power from vampires and vampirism. Chances are that liches deviated to Myrkul, Jergal and other undead-friendly deities before Velsharoon's ascension. It could explain why Velsharoon's using Mellifleur's name; Ao's decree constrains him, so he's looking into ways to expand as a multispheric deity of black necromancy.



Couple problems with that. Mellifleur is noted as being in Toril in the document where he's first created with a relation to Bane. So, he was here. Many liches may have worshipped some other deity besides Mellifleur (hell, why not Shar, Hoar, Talos, etc...), but it wouldn't have been Myrkul or Jergal really at the time of Velsharoon's ascension, since that was 1368 and Myrkul was dead and Jergal was little known.

The part where Mellifleur would have lost power due to lack of worshippers would have only been after the ToT (1358). Prior to that, at least in Toril, he would have been able to survive SOMEHOW just because he was a god (guessing Ao gave out divine welfare to those beings which became a god but couldn't support themselves in the years prior to the ToT). I can actually see vampires and hags worshipping Kanchelsis and Cegilune (they'd be lean mind you, but...), whereas in theory liches are a lot more rare AND a lot more likely to choose a different deity.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
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USA
503 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  03:12:35  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mellifleur could have been known, but not worshiped widely enough to have access to Realmspace, with his followers being limited to 2nd level priest spells. That's not an issue if most of his followers are wizards and wizardly liches.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  04:43:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sleyvas, that whole thing read like a fantasy soap-opera, and I got completely lost (turns out Richard had a secret twin brother he never knew about, who had a one-night stand with Wanda twenty years ago, in which she conceived John, who has now returned to Genericville and doesn't realize Paula is his long-lost half-sister...) You and I are usually on the same page with a lot of things, but that was like a 'who's who' of obscure Faerunian personages and quasi-outsiders.
Sometimes the simplest answer is the best one (Occam's razor... and Occam was an original member of the Circle of Nine... before it became 'Eight')

So, I'm going to have to side with 'Velsharoon ascended, and is (sort-of) subsumed by Mellifleur'. I think the story about how Melifleur came to be - that he was doing some sort of ritual and stole some power from Nerull or whoever - is the original Mellifleur. I think this somehow turned him into an 'archtype' god (just like there are many versions of Corellon, etc, on different worlds). The way I picture 'archtypes' working is that they are like a 'god of gods', in that the gods that are individuals on their own worlds are really just avatars (I've dubbed these Ubertars) of the archtype. I really came up with a bunch of that to explain non-human deities back in the day, and then with all the 4e cr... stuff, I was able to fine-tune it regarding Bane.

As some of you know from my other posts, I picture there being a 'First Bane' (which may have been FR's) - he was 'THE Bane'. Then he went multispheric, and has trysts with mortals on various worlds, and thus creates little 'demigod copies' of himself all over the place (Iyatchu Xvim on Toril). Eventually, these exarchs (demigods, Chosen, Agents, 'Saints', etc) build up their own following (once again, Xvim), and when they get strong enough, 'Big daddy Bane' returns in all his bloody glory, bursting out of the chest of his offspring (he's the ultimate 'dead-beat dad). Who knows? There may have even been a few female 'Banes' running around on some worlds.

Anyhow, I came up with all that to try and explain some of the weirdness with Core Bane and FR Bane (who are slightly different), and also fold the Iyatchu Xvim stuff into it. I even compared it to how Doctor Doom went off for awhile in Marvel comics (world/planes hopping, of all things), and most of the beings of the Marvelverse were unaware of this because he left a clone and some robots in charge (who didn't know they were clones and robots). Then he shows back up, bitch-slaps his wayward 'toys', and says, "Honey, I'M HOME!" I picture Bane working very much the same way. Except Doom sired little extra-dimensional 'Kangs' all over the place... same difference.

But I think Mellifleur is using a similar mechanism. Multispheric deities are these 'archtypes', and as such they can 'seed' worlds they want to get a foot-hold in. It could even be using these 'lesser phylactories' (*cough* Horcruxes *cough*) - he sends an avatar to these worlds, and each avatar has their own phylactory. Then some mortal finds that (as Mellifleur planned), and working with a local god (because of the 'whispering' coming from the phylactory), he gets sponsored to become the new 'lich deity' on that world. Except one problem, just as Bane's kids had a little piece of daddy inside of them (divinity), the phylactoy does the same thing for Mellifleur, and just like Bane, he can 'assume control' whenever he wants.

However, in a LOT of cases, Archtypes allow their sphere-specific manifestations (my 'ubertars') to retain a semblance of independence and autonomy (just as gods sometimes do this with their Avatars). Velsharoon still thinks he is Velsharoon, and for all intents and purposes, he is. Unless Vel becomes extremely powerful in his own right (something I doubt a god of liches could do, considering the lack of appropriate worship), Mellifleur could 'reel him in' at any time, and subsume him. There are many reasons why he wouldn't do that (not the least of which Overgods probably not liking gods using this 'back door' to get established in a Crystal Sphere), just as I am sure there are tons of deities all over the D&Dverse who are completely unaware that they are part of other Archtypes - gods work best when their enemies (and friends, who can become enemies on a dime) don't know all the cards they are holding.

Which is how I explain a lot of all this 'they are the same god, but yet they're not' BS we get in D&D. It means that all versions of a story can be true (including multiple 'creation Myths').

So Mellifleur is Mellifleur and Velsharoon is Velsharoon... for now. It doesn't mean Vel is doomed, though (well... no more 'doomed' than having become a lich) - if he comes to realize his situation he might be able to break-free from his primary (as I am sure many gods have done throughout the universe) with the help of other gods, or even an artifact or three. In the case of 'good' deities, some of them may simply 'cut the strings' voluntarily.

And for some reason, now I am reminded how vampires work in most settings (a 'creator vamp' that controls all the ones beneath him/her, like some sort of dark 'Pyramid/Ponzi scheme'). Hmmmmmm... vampires are really selling Amway. LOL

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Apr 2017 18:26:38
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  04:56:26  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That was longer than I wanted it to be.

Bottom line is, the hazy 'maybe they are, maybe they aren't' explanation works for me, when it comes to things cosmological. And if you just ignore all my explanations of the 'why' it works that way (why its canon that things don't actually need to be 'canon'), it just boils down to that, which is what Jeff and Tom said (minus my headache-inducing cosmic corporation theory).

No need to drag Karsus, Orcus, Merlin's cousin, by sister's ex-husband, half of Tatooine, etc, into it (although I was a little disappointed you left out Elvis Presley - FR needs a good 'Elvis Sighting').

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1443 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  08:13:47  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Or Mellifleur isn't worshiped in Toril. Really, Mellifleur isn't worshipped anywhere. Neither is Kanchelsis.

Mellifleur seems to be making a name for himself as a mentor-figure for liches, while Kanchelsis draws power from vampires and vampirism. Chances are that liches deviated to Myrkul, Jergal and other undead-friendly deities before Velsharoon's ascension. It could explain why Velsharoon's using Mellifleur's name; Ao's decree constrains him, so he's looking into ways to expand as a multispheric deity of black necromancy.



Couple problems with that. Mellifleur is noted as being in Toril in the document where he's first created with a relation to Bane. So, he was here. Many liches may have worshipped some other deity besides Mellifleur (hell, why not Shar, Hoar, Talos, etc...), but it wouldn't have been Myrkul or Jergal really at the time of Velsharoon's ascension, since that was 1368 and Myrkul was dead and Jergal was little known.

The part where Mellifleur would have lost power due to lack of worshippers would have only been after the ToT (1358). Prior to that, at least in Toril, he would have been able to survive SOMEHOW just because he was a god (guessing Ao gave out divine welfare to those beings which became a god but couldn't support themselves in the years prior to the ToT). I can actually see vampires and hags worshipping Kanchelsis and Cegilune (they'd be lean mind you, but...), whereas in theory liches are a lot more rare AND a lot more likely to choose a different deity.




It's worth noting that Monster Mythology states he may have siphoned power from Bane, not that he's actually worshipped in Toril. Mellifleur is called out as being a deity without any priests, so Torilian liches probably know him as an abstract figure rather than a true god.

Mellifleur may not even want to be worshipped in Toril, since it'd put him in Bane's crosshairs. Nerull is at least far more distant, and hates Mellifleur the way he hates everybody else.

Maybe, however, the truth is something else: Mellifleur arranged for Velsharoon's divinity, because as god of liches, Mellifleur is empowered by successful lichdom. Velsharoon doesn't actually compete with Mellifleur, but his portfolio complements Mellifleur's.

Or maybe they're just housemates who don't see each other much other than a muttered 'hello" when they come out of their tower/crypt for a cup of larva coffee.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  18:15:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, to reference my above post (where I forgot to make this point therein) - there are (at least) TWO Banes, technically (some might say three, counting Iyatchu Xvim).

Archtype 'Mellifleur' may have borrowed power from archtype (Core) 'Bane', and 'scholars' could just be assuming the Bane involved was FR's Bane (who may - and probably is - the 'original' {primary} Bane). Or a 'Bane' from yet another world (that would actually make more sense, because the only time FR's Bane wouldn't have been 'THE Bane' would be during Xvim's tenure).

The only other way this all makes sense is if Talos was Bane (another avatar/aspect?) On some levels that would also make Bane Gruumsh, and although thats a fun possibility, its starting to become convoluted again. I personally like toying with the idea that the original Bane (FR's Bane) was the offspring of Orcus and a human female (thus his half-orc visage). Of course, that's not relevant to the conversation (although it could be, if we tried to also bring Orcus back into this, in some sort of relative way).

Which is funny, because I've always toyed with the idea of Orcus having originally been part of the Orc pantheon (just because of the name). It may be possible to reconcile everything if we also say Orcus is either another aspect/Ubertar of Gruumsh who was killed-off on some world, but managed to somehow stay in a half-life state, and HE is actually the Archtype, and Mellifleur AND Velsharoon are both aspects of him. Or Orcus was the original 'Bane', who was killed, and now all the 'little Banes' (including FR's) are now autonomous because of the weird set of circumstances surrounding a deity and undeath (something that should not be possible - just look what having an undead clone did to Manshhoon's own clones). This reminds me of an episode of Buffy, when 'The Slayer' died, and a new one was activated... except Buffy was brought back and there was a 'glitch' that enabled two slayers to be active at once.

So maybe when Gruumsh was Talos for a time, thats when he 'helped' Velsharoon (although the timeline would be off). Still not perfect, because Grummsh is not Bane (even if there is a 'familial' resemblance).

Just checked Wikipedia - what if Nerull was the first 'Bane' ("The bane of mankind")? It says that The Raven Queen killed him in 4e. What if the baneling (*ugh*) that he seeded on Oerth then took up his Bane mantel, in much the same way Xvim did on Toril? Timeline-wise that works, I think. Nerull has all these little 'Banes' running around, similar to how Asmodeus has all his archfiends under him, and then he gets blind-sided by the Raven Queen (who may or may not be in FR in 5e), and all his offspring are freed to do as they please. Some continue to work under the guise of 'Bane', while others try to make changes to their religions (heck, one may have even 'gone good' for all we know). The makes being 'a Bane' more like a title, and some have just chosen to keep it now (as FR's Bane has - it works because we really don't know if that was his real name while mortal... I doubt it).

So... ummm... did I just figure out that Velsharoon may have been a 'failed Bane'?

And if so, does that make Mellifleur one as well? And why? Could it be Nerull was killed by the Raven Queen (sometime just prior to 4e) while he was raising these two up? Is that why they wound-up as 'undead gods'? Now I want to connect him to Orcus even more (after poking fun at Sleyvas for going this route ) The only way I can see all of this working is that when she killed Nerull - probably sometime in the 1e/2e/3e era - he had contingencies in effect, and also because of his multispheric status he couldn't truly 'die', so instead he was cast back in time and became Orcus.

And if I wanted to weave all of this further together, and use some of my 'Theory of everything' Over-cosmology, then Nerull might be Gruumsh's father, making him Mćlkith the Accursed (all Dökkálfar - the proto-orcs, NOT drow). Considering his temperament, that makes prefect sense to me. Thus 'Orcus' is actually the 'father of orckind', which is really cool. I guess Nerull and Orcus always avoided each other to avoid any paradoxes. LOL

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Apr 2017 18:29:27
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  18:40:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Holy crap!!! Guess what I just found on Wikipedia regarding Orcus?

quote:

The article "Setting Saintly Standards" by Scott Bennie in Dragon #79 (November 1983) mentions on page 29 that Saint Bane the Scourger attacked and nearly slew Orcus on his home plane; for his valor, Bane was rewarded with sainthood.


What the heck... its almost like they had this planned all the way back in 1983!

If the 'Banes' were his seeded offspring, one of them - Saint Bane - may have helped The Raven Queen kill Nerull, thus causing part of the paradox that created Orcus.

Do I win an original signed copy of Chainmail now? I solved D&D.

EDIT:
Further reading now has me wanting to reconcile Kiaransalee with The Raven Queen (in my homebrew stuff I have it where Graz'zt was originally Auraushnee's {Lotlth} brother, so I really like where all of this is taking me now).

EDIT2: I need to start a new/separate scroll. This is getting just TOO GOOD. Orcus is Tenebrous, and Tenebrous killed and absorbed an aspect of an ancient love goddess named Tomeri. What if THAT goddess was the archtype for the love/beauty goddesses I was talking abut in another thread? Maybe Sune getting involved in cosmic politics and helping to imprison Cyric wasn't so out-of-character as I had thought.

EDIT3:
...and Orcus and The Raven Queen hate each other's guts - how could a fairly 'newly arisen power' like the RQ have 'ancient enmities' with Orcus? The deeper I dig, the more my wild theories are making sense. Both of them have had other names, and they are enemies with all the right people for much of this to work (not that it takes much to be enemies with an archfiend LOL).

All these 'undead gods' are all part of some sort of looping paradox, and thats how they can exist when they shouldn't.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Apr 2017 04:38:06
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11217 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  02:54:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Holy crap!!! Guess what I just found on Wikipedia regarding Orcus?

quote:

The article "Setting Saintly Standards" by Scott Bennie in Dragon #79 (November 1983) mentions on page 29 that Saint Bane the Scourger attacked and nearly slew Orcus on his home plane; for his valor, Bane was rewarded with sainthood.


What the heck... its almost like they had this planned all the way back in 1983!

If the 'Banes' were his seeded offspring, one of them - Saint Bane - may have helped The Raven Queen kill Nerull, thus causing part of the paradox that created Orcus.

Do I win an original signed copy of Chainmail now? I solved D&D.

EDIT:
Further reading now has me wanting to reconcile Kiaransalee with The Raven Queen (in my homebrew stuff I have it where Graz'zt was originally Auraushnee's {Lotlth} brother, so I really like where all of this is taking me now).

EDIT2: I need to start a new/separate scroll. This is getting just TOO GOOD. Orcus is Tenebrous, and Tenebrous killed and absorbed an aspect of an ancient love goddess named Tomeri. What if THAT goddess was the archtype for the love/beauty goddesses I was talking abut in another thread? Maybe Sune getting involved in cosmic politics and helping to imprison Cyric wasn't so out-of-character as I had thought.

EDIT3:
...and Orcus and The Raven Queen hate each other's guts - how could a fairly 'newly arisen power' like the RQ have 'ancient enmities' with Orcus? The deeper I dig, the more my wild theories are making sense. Both of them have had other names, and they are enemies with all the right people for much of this to work (not that it take much to enemies with an archfiend LOL).

All these 'undead gods' are all part of some sort of looping paradox, and thats how they can exist when they shouldn't.



Yeah, I went there with the Raven Queen and Kiaransalee for a while too. I was playing with the general idea that she forgot who she was and had a made up identity come into play against her own will.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  05:05:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Re-reading all of that, its almost like 'Banes' are multi-spheric, anti-Chosen.

And just like what they did in the 4e/5e Sundering (which I really dislike), there could be all different powered 'Banes' running loose in the multiverse, just as there are Chosen. There's quite a bit of room within the title 'demigod' (the levels 0-5 DvR). A zeroeth level 'Bane' (or Chosen for that matter) would be little more than a 'Superhero' type character, a'la Hercules, while a 5th lvl DvR would be practically a lesser god (with all the 'bells & whistles' that go with that). Very few of them would be Mystra-class Chosen (who were probably all lev. 5's back in the day). It takes a lot of power to create chosen (I would imagine its something akin to loosing one of your avatars), so most gods would not have the power to spare like that (as Mystra would have had).

I really wish the Sundering novels would have used something other than 'Chosen', which now means the same thing as exarch, I suppose. It basically just means 'larger than life' (more than mortal) - demipower status levs 0-5 DvR. We could have created five or six specific names for each 'rank' within the exarch tier. For example, maybe lev 0 should be 'Exalted', and level 1 could be 'Ascended', etc. They should have saved 'Chosen' for level 5.

0 Exarch
1 Exalted
2 Ascended
3 Saint
4 Seraph
5 Chosen

Something like that could have worked, but two of those have become generic for the whole group. Too bad 'Archon' is in use elsewhere. What was that word in PS - 'Proxie'? Except I'm thinking that would have to be the highest level, even over 'Chosen'. Then we can ditch Exarch and push the others down. Each level would require different amounts of power-expenditure on the part of the 'investing' god. I suppose more than one god could work together (maybe thats why Mystra gets so many - she works with the other deities that are part of the Harper sponsors).

So now I am wondering if a Magister would fit in there, maybe as a Saint or Seraph? I'm pretty sure they fall below 'Chosen'.

Thus, with this new format, Exarch would just = 'Agent' (of a god).

EDIT:
Looking it over, now I'm thinking that perhaps Chosen shouldn't be at the top, Saint should be, and maybe a 'Proxie' is just the planer term for Saints. Of course, that means I am (at least) one title shy again.

EDIT2:
Thesaurus is my best friend.

0 Favored (Blessed)
1 Paragon/Exemplar (Sacrosanct)
2 Exalted (Ascended)
3 Seraph (Transcendent)
4 Saint/Prophet (Hallowed)
5 Proxie/Demigod/Archite (Anointed)

Thus, 'Exarch' and 'Chosen' can be used for the entire spectrum, but the former is more often used for the low end of the tier, and the latter for the high end of the tier (but any position would be still considered correct - they are generic terms for the whole group).

Now I feel better and can go to bed.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Apr 2017 05:50:01
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
763 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  08:56:35  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd argue if anything an Exarch is exponentially more powerful than a Sundering Chosen - for instance, Fzoul was an exarch, and very powerful; yet check out this quote on the Sundering Chosen from Legacy of the Crystal Shard:
quote:
The Chosen active in the Sundering are not necessarily powerful, high-level characters—in a time such as this, even the least servants can make significant differences. Most of them have only minor abilities granted by their deities. A Chosen of Amaunator might have darkvision or be able to stave of the worst of the effects of the cold. A Chosen of Moradin might have enhanced dwarf racial abilities. Being a Chosen shouldn’t be unbalancing to the game.

I'm currently half-way through The Adversary, and at one point a character makes it very clear she doesn't like the term "Chosen" for those favoured by the gods during the Sundering. They're special, but they're not THAT special.

I definitely don't think Sundering Chosen and the word "demipower" should be mentioned anywhere near each other. Even favoured seems a bit much for some of these folks, because the deities' attentions are all spread so thinly - perhaps "The Very Slightly Favoured" might be a better term.

Exarchs were also more powerful entities than even all the pre-Sundering Chosen (who weren't exarchs themselves), as pointed out on p72 of the 4e FRCG. I would argue that almost all exarchs would be considered demigods if using that term (or perhaps Planescape-style "proxies" in some cases), but I don't think any non-exarch Chosen could be considered demigods.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 21 Apr 2017 09:09:05
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LordofBones
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Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  10:19:15  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*massages temples*

Saint Bane is a paladin of Pelor who was elevated to hero-deity status after slaying a powerful servant of Orcus and heavily wounding Orcus himself, and the patron of all those who hunt the undead. He's a Flan power and saint, and has nothing to do with the greater power Bane - no more than the 4e Bane has anything to do with the Faerunian Bane.

I mean, this has meandered into the ridiculous now. Nerull was still alive and well until 4e decided to wipe him off the map alongside Istus, Boccob, Hextor, Wee Jas and so many others, and he's back again in 5e, with the Raven Queen no longer mentioned.

Also, that "ancient goddess Tomeri" is a Zakharan goddess, if I'm not mistaken.
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 01 May 2017 :  17:01:27  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Stillsong the Singing Sphere: http://bit.ly/2pAAh5J

Stillsong is a very unusual entity, apparently transitioning from one state to another. What he was before, and what he is to become is unknown. He grants no spells and has no priesthood, and represents a wandering benevolent force throughout the planes.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Markustay
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Posted - 01 May 2017 :  18:58:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very cool - is that something new you've come up with, or was it from something?

If I used IMG, I'd also add something akin to Ghost Rider's 'Penance Stare' for evil creatures hearing its song.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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AuldDragon
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Posted - 01 May 2017 :  20:50:15  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Stillsong has an entry in Monster Mythology (if I don't mention a source for a deity, it's likely from DMGR4), and gets a discussion in *I think* the Planes of Conflict boxed set for Planescape. He's in one of them, I just can't remember exactly which one.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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TBeholder
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Posted - 01 May 2017 :  21:35:55  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

and gets a discussion in *I think* the Planes of Conflict boxed set for Planescape. He's in one of them, I just can't remember exactly which one.

planewalker.com refers to Monster Mythology, Planes of Conflict and On Hallowed Ground.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 02 May 2017 :  02:45:30  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

planewalker.com refers to Monster Mythology, Planes of Conflict and On Hallowed Ground.



Ah good, I remembered correctly. :)

He's only mentioned in On Hallowed Ground in the lists in the back.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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LordofBones
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Posted - 03 May 2017 :  05:46:28  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Stillsong is certainly one of the weirder powers out there.

I was thinking a bit more on Mellifleur; one of the thoughts I have is that while Mellifleur isn't worshipped, he's actually respected among liches as a sort of senior professor among their kind. To a lesser extent, so is Velsharoon (though Faerunian liches acknowledge Velsharoon above Mellifleur). The worship of the undead is a tepid thing, but Mellifleur and Velsharoon, as academic deities who cheerfully encourage no-holds-barred, anything-goes research, are especially attractive not just to liches but to any serious undead spellcaster.

It's also why nobody likes Kyuss, because I can't see intelligent undead having anything other than disdain for a god of undeath who encourages them to annihilate the cattle/research subjects.

The Complete Book of Necromancers is actually set in Toril, and though Velsharoon isn't mentioned, an ascended baatezu by the name of Thasmudyan is mentioned to be a god of undeath living in Carceri. His decline in prominence seems to be tied to Velsharoon's rise; did the Archmage of Necromancy subsume him?
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sleyvas
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Posted - 03 May 2017 :  17:57:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Stillsong is certainly one of the weirder powers out there.

I was thinking a bit more on Mellifleur; one of the thoughts I have is that while Mellifleur isn't worshipped, he's actually respected among liches as a sort of senior professor among their kind. To a lesser extent, so is Velsharoon (though Faerunian liches acknowledge Velsharoon above Mellifleur). The worship of the undead is a tepid thing, but Mellifleur and Velsharoon, as academic deities who cheerfully encourage no-holds-barred, anything-goes research, are especially attractive not just to liches but to any serious undead spellcaster.

It's also why nobody likes Kyuss, because I can't see intelligent undead having anything other than disdain for a god of undeath who encourages them to annihilate the cattle/research subjects.

The Complete Book of Necromancers is actually set in Toril, and though Velsharoon isn't mentioned, an ascended baatezu by the name of Thasmudyan is mentioned to be a god of undeath living in Carceri. His decline in prominence seems to be tied to Velsharoon's rise; did the Archmage of Necromancy subsume him?



Wow, that's weird that you mention Thasmudyan and Velsharoon. Some of the early history that I had worked up for Velsharoon BEFORE he helped start the red wizard uprising had him actually visiting the isle of Sehu (sp?). I had it that that's where he learned the skills of a dread necromancer (the 3.5e version, as I had his mortal form to be a triple classed non-specialist wizard/dread necromancer/binder with anima mage and some other prestige class that built both arcane school <maybe ultimate magus>). I didn't ever build more into him for the location..... and man, I just realized I started writing a short story back in 2011 and never finished it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 01 Jun 2017 :  17:00:49  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Syranita, Mistress of the Aarakocra: http://bit.ly/2qFphWC

The only non-aquatic member of Deep Sashelas’s asathalfinare, Syranita is the protector-goddess of the aarakocra. She is an excellent diplomat, and is always on the look out for new allies to help protect her gentle race.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 01 Jun 2017 :  17:32:32  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I continue to be amazed by your work. Kudos for your patience and persistence!
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 01 Jun 2017 :  17:49:21  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh

I continue to be amazed by your work. Kudos for your patience and persistence!



Thanks! :D

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
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Posted - 02 Jun 2017 :  00:25:15  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Syranita, Mistress of the Aarakocra: http://bit.ly/2qFphWC

The only non-aquatic member of Deep Sashelas’s asathalfinare, Syranita is the protector-goddess of the aarakocra. She is an excellent diplomat, and is always on the look out for new allies to help protect her gentle race.

Jeff



Hmmm, thank you. I had not noted Krocaa before. I'm naming him "the golden-feathered god of defense and aerial combat". Only source I saw him in was dragon #124.

BTW, offhand, is there any particular deity for harpies that you've seen? I want to say there were some demon lords (maybe the ones for succubi.. maybe Demogorgon), but was wondering if there was any evil fey or somesuch you've seen associated with harpies, as they seem less fiendish and more fey.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 02 Jun 2017 :  00:32:44  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is interesting in that it ties in nicely to my 'lava-light theory' of godhood. That the 'stuff' of godhood is actually finite, so in order for one to arise, another must fall (there is only so much 'divine power' to go around). But its even more complicated than that - all of that 'divine stuff' that floating around in the universe is much like that crap floating around inside a lava-lap - it breaks apart, it reforms, it makes smaller pieces, it combines into greater ones - that how I picture godhood working. All these gods absorbing/combining with each other, and breaking apart (Tyche into Beshaba and Tymora, for example), and also all those 'conjoined/tripartite deities. Thus, the cosmology is a lava-lamp. forever evolving into new things, some of which may be reminiscent of older things, and some 'brand new', but the truth is, it all part of the some glob of stuff that just keeps swirling around and reforming.

Thasmudyan is an older globlet that got absorbed into the newer velsharoon, is all. So while mortals may think one took the place of the other, the truth is that Thasmudyan is still in there somewhere, and could respawn again at some point. Similar things have happened many times before, like in the case where Selvetarm absorbed Zanassu (and he was corrupted by it).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Stillsong is certainly one of the weirder powers out there.

I was thinking a bit more on Mellifleur; one of the thoughts I have is that while Mellifleur isn't worshipped, he's actually respected among liches as a sort of senior professor among their kind. To a lesser extent, so is Velsharoon (though Faerunian liches acknowledge Velsharoon above Mellifleur). The worship of the undead is a tepid thing, but Mellifleur and Velsharoon, as academic deities who cheerfully encourage no-holds-barred, anything-goes research, are especially attractive not just to liches but to any serious undead spellcaster.

It's also why nobody likes Kyuss, because I can't see intelligent undead having anything other than disdain for a god of undeath who encourages them to annihilate the cattle/research subjects.

The Complete Book of Necromancers is actually set in Toril, and though Velsharoon isn't mentioned, an ascended baatezu by the name of Thasmudyan is mentioned to be a god of undeath living in Carceri. His decline in prominence seems to be tied to Velsharoon's rise; did the Archmage of Necromancy subsume him?



Wow, that's weird that you mention Thasmudyan and Velsharoon. Some of the early history that I had worked up for Velsharoon BEFORE he helped start the red wizard uprising had him actually visiting the isle of Sehu (sp?). I had it that that's where he learned the skills of a dread necromancer (the 3.5e version, as I had his mortal form to be a triple classed non-specialist wizard/dread necromancer/binder with anima mage and some other prestige class that built both arcane school <maybe ultimate magus>). I didn't ever build more into him for the location..... and man, I just realized I started writing a short story back in 2011 and never finished it.
'Sahu'

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2017 :  01:01:03  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, thank you. I had not noted Krocaa before. I'm naming him "the golden-feathered god of defense and aerial combat". Only source I saw him in was dragon #124.


That's the only source I've seen, even among later material that often scoured old publications for information. I see Krocaa encompassing hunting as well, so while he isn't aggressive by any means, he's very much a martial type deity.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, offhand, is there any particular deity for harpies that you've seen? I want to say there were some demon lords (maybe the ones for succubi.. maybe Demogorgon), but was wondering if there was any evil fey or somesuch you've seen associated with harpies, as they seem less fiendish and more fey.


I would go with the Greek goddess Eris, as she was sometimes depicted as harpy-like. Otherwise, the Queen of Air and Darkness or Cegilune could suffice.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2017 :  01:09:52  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

This is interesting in that it ties in nicely to my 'lava-light theory' of godhood. That the 'stuff' of godhood is actually finite, so in order for one to arise, another must fall (there is only so much 'divine power' to go around). But its even more complicated than that - all of that 'divine stuff' that floating around in the universe is much like that crap floating around inside a lava-lap - it breaks apart, it reforms, it makes smaller pieces, it combines into greater ones


My view is that since the planes are infinite, there are an infinite number of mortal inhabitants of those planes, and they have an infinite number of deities.

BUT, there are also infinitely more infinite mortals than there are infinite deities. And yes, it should make your brain hurt. :D

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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