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Elren_Wolfsbane
Learned Scribe

USA
111 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2017 :  20:40:57  Show Profile Send Elren_Wolfsbane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks AuldDragon for this treasure trove of information. I've always wondered about other monster Pantheons.

Aa' lasser en`coialle n`natula brown.

(May the leaves of your life tree never turn brown)

-Elren Wolfsbane
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2017 :  06:39:15  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Elren_Wolfsbane

Thanks AuldDragon for this treasure trove of information. I've always wondered about other monster Pantheons.



Thanks, glad you like them!

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2017 :  03:33:20  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Koriel the Vigilant: http://bit.ly/2kszfGg

Koriel is the patron of the ki-rin and t’uen-rin, as well as other powerful paragons of law and good. He is a wandering power, constantly working to foil the forces of evil throughout the outer planes, while sending his followers to face evil on the Prime Material Plane. He has only a small number of humanoid followers, who look to Koriel as a model of their behavior.

I’ve also revised my previous Jazirian entry and added a shamanistic humanoid cult: http://bit.ly/1UmSlo6

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2017 :  18:44:32  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Anguileusis the Abiding One: http://bit.ly/2lcZsdz

Anguileusis is the imprisoned patron deity of the Anguiliians, eel-like deep sea humanoids with some sort of connection to Sahuagin. The Anguiliians were first presented in the product Sea Devils, but there wasn’t a great deal about them in that book; they received more details in the last of the adventures that accompanied that product, Sea of Blood, which also introduced their imprisoned patron. Anguileusis can be used in a time-traveling campaign, or he could be released through the above-mentioned adventure.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
763 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2017 :  23:30:10  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great work as always.

I don't know if you take requests, but I'm quite interested to read your Diirinka write-up when you get to him. Admittedly it's purely because it's one of the few deities that made it into the monster list in Faiths and Pantheons that we know little about - it's not for a game or anything, so hardly a matter of urgency.

Keep up the good work!

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2017 :  03:37:48  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks, glad you're enjoying them! Right now I'm working through "sections," since it is easier for me to focus on certain themes and play off of existing alliances and such, so Diirinka is a ways off, sadly.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2017 :  18:49:33  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Surminare the Selkie Queen: http://bit.ly/2nsA7cU

Surminare is the peaceful and gentle goddess of the selkies. She is a member of the asathalfinare, the loose alliance of aquatic deities headed by Deep Sashelas. She is not a warrior, but fights bravely to defend those she loves.

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2017 :  19:26:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And now you have me singing 'Selkie Queen' to the tune of ABBA's 'Dancing Queen'.

Love all the stuff you are doing here, BTW.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Apr 2017 19:26:45
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2017 :  19:41:10  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And now you have me singing 'Selkie Queen' to the tune of ABBA's 'Dancing Queen'.

Love all the stuff you are doing here, BTW.



I take no responsibility for earworms. :D

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
871 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2017 :  13:09:01  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jeff, great stuff as always. Don't know why I didn't think of this sooner, but if you are interested in the power range sheet we worked off of for writing Demihuman Deities, I can send you that. Just ping me with your email address. Tom
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2017 :  17:58:48  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

Jeff, great stuff as always. Don't know why I didn't think of this sooner, but if you are interested in the power range sheet we worked off of for writing Demihuman Deities, I can send you that. Just ping me with your email address. Tom



That would be awesome! I'll send you a PM shortly, thanks!

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11211 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2017 :  22:54:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aulddragon,

I've loved this project since you've started it. I'm especially glad for this link where I can keep track of what you've done

http://blog.aulddragon.com/monster-mythology-update/

I'm particularly interested in some of the ones that you haven't done yet, and I'm wondering if you have sources for where the names came from in the first place. In particular, the centaur deities have kind of caught my eye.

BTW, I could have sworn you did Cegilune and the Seelie already?? Maybe I'm losing it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2017 :  07:30:59  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Aulddragon,

I've loved this project since you've started it. I'm especially glad for this link where I can keep track of what you've done

http://blog.aulddragon.com/monster-mythology-update/

I'm particularly interested in some of the ones that you haven't done yet, and I'm wondering if you have sources for where the names came from in the first place. In particular, the centaur deities have kind of caught my eye.


Of those, Chitza-Atlan is from the adventure C1 Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, where a mummified centaur was described as the "remains of a sacred offspring of Chitza-Atlan," who is the guardian of the gateway to the underworld. There really weren't any further details, but it was listed as a deity in the list of deities available for the Living Greyhawk campaign through the RPGA. Kheiron is from Greek mythology, the centaur who taught Hercules and many other heroes. His Latinized name is Chiron. Brilros, Fanthros, Linroth, and Naharra are from an article on centaurs in Dragon 103:

"Centaurs also have various minor deities and demi-deities of their own. These include Naharra (goddess of fertility and love), Fanthros (god of the sky and weather), Brilros and his sister Linroth (twin demi-deities of strength and speed), and others concerned with health, singing, cattle, and other important aspects of centaur life."

Krocaa is from Dragon 124; I will probably make him into Syranita's mate, who is a deity of hunting.

Klikral is the god of the insectare, an elf-like insectoid race from Spelljammer.

Ilxendren and Piscaethces (The Blood Queen) are from Night Below and Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark (you're probably aware of that, but I figured I'd mention it just in case).

There's also some deities that I'm almost certainly going to do that aren't in that list (as Anguileusis wasn't): Cador the dwarven god of revenge (Dungeon #2, Caermor); the dozen or so lesser elven deities from multiple Dragon magazines (Darahl Firecloak, Sarula Iliene, etc.); the Neogi pantheon (Dragon 214, which may come earlier than I planned since I'm now running a Spelljammer campaign on Twitch); various demons (Shami-Amourae, Orcus, etc.); the Mantis God of the Eternal Lotus (Spelljamming Thri-kreen); etc. There's also some nameless deities (such as those of grippli and grung, kercpa, etc.), the dracon pantheon, the grommam pantheon, the "savage" gods of Al-Qadim, Ravanna of the Rakshasas, etc. that I might do as well.

So much to do! :)

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, I could have sworn you did Cegilune and the Seelie already?? Maybe I'm losing it.



Nope, only Fionghualla. I've popped into some discussions here about Cegilune, though.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11211 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2017 :  13:23:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
now that you mention it, I was just looking for deities for the bullywugs/grippli/sivs/grung/froghemoth people that I'm putting in Katashaka. I had come up with the following to use with them, but if you know of more???


Frog Folk (bullywugs,grippli, grung, sivs, etc...
Ramenos (monster mythology) - wants sacrifices
Azul - Maztican rain god,
Nula - Maztica animals
Heqet - Egyptian variation of Hathor with a froghead


I'm using Hathor across a lot of these animal cultures, as I found she appeared throughout their religion as slightly different names with different animal heads (Nekhbet was vulture headed... using for my stork and vulture folk, Heqet was frog headed, Hathor was cow headed and using for my yak folk and minotaurs). I'm going with the idea that she and Ptah were here long before the Mulan peoples were dragged here, and that's why she didn't have a royal family and incarnation (much like Mask didn't either, but he was part of the pantheon)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2017 :  19:57:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You just made me think of something that pertains to a back-burner type of deific question I've purposely been avoiding tackling with my 'Theory of Everything' (Unified Mythology). The question is, "Why aren't the 'beast lord' types more powerful?" True, most of their 'flock' aren't the worshiping types, but they are so universal - so spread throughout the multiverse, one would think they'd still be at least greater gods. Think of the shear number of insects there must be!

But now you made me think of something else - ASPECTS. They ARE that powerful... but they keep splitting. Baast and Asl... err.. Nobanion both have 'cats' (aside from a bunch of other stuff), and we have a couple of other feline deities around Toril, but they are for specific groups/ (Nobanion I would imagine *might* be the 'Lord of Beasts' and actually be THE archtype feline god... but I would think he cared more about large predators as opposed to domestic cats, as Baast would be). So I'm thinking every time a sub-species breaks-off from the main species (which happens all the time), a new 'species Overmind' forms and creates the separate aspect. Thinking creatures like humans make a conscious decision about who or what to worship, or even whether to have faith in anything at all. But animals don't have that luxury - they have a very basic 'us & them' mentality when it comes to other creatures, and thus, their 'gods' would have the same simplistic paradigm. The moment one group starts to think of itself as something different than the main group, this happens automatically, and completely subconsciously (since beasts wouldn't put any thought into it what-so-ever).

So suppose Nobanion is the 'Big Cheese' in the cat world. It would make some sense, considering who we know he really is. That would make him uber-powerful... except every time a new sub-species of cat appears - across the board (and across untold myriad worlds), a little piece of him 'breaks off' and goes its separate way. Now, on some level these are all self-aware avatars of the god, and I suppose there may be some way to force all of them to return (although I think once ANY of them begins to get intelligent worshipers - which may be why they do it - it becomes much harder to 'reel them in', so to speak), but for all intents and purposes they become separate deities as far as most of the universe is concerned. So what this does is create a never-ending cycle of attrition for these animal archtypes - they would indeed be more powerful than human(ish) gods, except that they have hundreds - perhaps thousands - of aspects all operating independently of them. Its basically like having a super-computer, and the archtype would be a single program that would run amazing on its own, except you are also running ten thousand other apps in the background, which sucks all the 'power' right out of the system. I think something along these lines is precisely what happened to the World Serpent.

And its because you were talking about your version of Hathor being multi-aspected with different heads that I got this idea. And he/it would have the big problem of having some intelligent worshipers, making all those aspects far more independent than they would have otherwise been (the difference between a normal avatar, and one of those self-aware, 'Manifestations' like we have down in The Old Empires). This would also make the power of animal archtypes inversely proportionate to the animal animal itself - strong, powerful, majestic creatures are far more likely to gain 'beast cult' status then say, ladybugs. Thus, those more powerful/beautiful creatures would have their aspects splintered the most (as in the case of felines). Nnuuurrrr'C'C (King of Insects from the Melnibonean mythos), on the other hand, probably doesn't have much of a problem with people worshiping his individual aspects. True, you do get the occasional group worshiping a giant centipede, and then there are all the bee and antfolk around, but for the most part, he gets to keep much of his power (unlike his cousin spider-guy, who has one of the worse cases of multiple-personality disorder in the cosmos, plus he has to contend with so many real gods -and archfiends - stealing his thunder).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Apr 2017 20:03:17
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2017 :  06:03:05  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

now that you mention it, I was just looking for deities for the bullywugs/grippli/sivs/grung/froghemoth people that I'm putting in Katashaka. I had come up with the following to use with them, but if you know of more???


Frog Folk (bullywugs,grippli, grung, sivs, etc...
Ramenos (monster mythology) - wants sacrifices
Azul - Maztican rain god,
Nula - Maztica animals
Heqet - Egyptian variation of Hathor with a froghead


I'm using Hathor across a lot of these animal cultures, as I found she appeared throughout their religion as slightly different names with different animal heads (Nekhbet was vulture headed... using for my stork and vulture folk, Heqet was frog headed, Hathor was cow headed and using for my yak folk and minotaurs). I'm going with the idea that she and Ptah were here long before the Mulan peoples were dragged here, and that's why she didn't have a royal family and incarnation (much like Mask didn't either, but he was part of the pantheon)


Froghemoths aren't intelligent enough to worship anything, but I think they have a connection with Ramenos. Possibly, in the past when he was more active, he created them as a prime servitor. That's all my own idea, rather than based on anything published on them. Also, another amphibian race that could be included are advanced blindheims (common members are animal intelligence); they're said to mostly worship slaadi though.

The grippli and the grung likely worship different deities, given their different outlooks (and the grippli have a pantheon that includes evil snake gods and spider goddesses). For some information on grippli religion, check the adventure Trial of the Frog, Dungeon Magazine #78, pg.60. Haven't seen too much about the Grung's deity, unfortunately. While certainly possible that Grung worship Ramenos, I feel that generally a race described as a specific alignment are often that alignment because of the influence of their deity. That's also why I resist having the lawful neutral spider-like k'r'r'r from Spelljammer worship Lolth. I like the grippli and the grung having their own deities as well because it makes a remnant "amphibian pantheon" more viable, regardless of whether they are connected in any given campaign. My issue right now is naming them--to my knowledge, they're totally unnamed. Ideally, I prefer to pull names from canon, but have seen none in my research.

Laogzed of the troglodytes appears as a disgusting toad/reptile cross (but the reptile elements are stronger than the amphibian), so he could work as an amphibian deity.

I can see amphibian-related deities of human pantheons as imports, especially if they fill societal niches, but I don't think they'd be native. Being associated with a type of creature (i.e. frogs, cats, birds, etc.) shouldn't be seen as a sign they are a deity worshipped by those types of creatures in my opinion. I tend to like non-humans having their own unique deities whenever possible. Regarding Heqet, her association with Hathor is fairly late in Egyptian mythology; I'd tend to keep such deities separate in my own works.

The only other amphibian-like deity I'm familiar with is Wastri, from Greyhawk. He's a human deity, though, and his toad-like form and nature are because his belief in the supremacy of humans twisted him into that form. He is worshipped by bullywugs, though.

It's quite unfortunate that there's such a major lack of amphibian deities.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2017 :  06:42:02  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

You just made me think of something that pertains to a back-burner type of deific question I've purposely been avoiding tackling with my 'Theory of Everything' (Unified Mythology). The question is, "Why aren't the 'beast lord' types more powerful?" True, most of their 'flock' aren't the worshiping types, but they are so universal - so spread throughout the multiverse, one would think they'd still be at least greater gods. Think of the shear number of insects there must be!


Are you referring to the animal lords of the Beastlands? I think it's a misconception to see them as divine. I would treat them as more akin to the eladrins, guardinals, and non-lord tanar'ri and baatezu. They're powerful and archetypical, but mortal. Any time one dies, another one of the regular creatures on the plane is elevated to be the new animal lord, and I suspect some die relatively frequently (i.e. the prey animals), while the predator and megafauna herbivore lords die relatively rarely (usually in conflicts with visitors to the plane or some such).

Sometimes one or another gets a big head and starts to gather worshippers, but they would be limited to 1st and 2nd level spells from their own faith and belief until they become widespread enough to elevate the animal lord to true godhood (which would usually cause a new animal lord to spawn on the beastlands). I think this is actually the likely origin of Gorellik, the former primary gnoll god, given the noted lack of a creation myth that involves him. Its possible Nobanion was once an animal lord, and Varae, but I would need some convincing. Other deities I could see having been animal lords are Trishina, Remnis, and Sekolah, although they shouldn't all be (just having animal traits or an animal form shouldn't be seen as an automatic connection to/origin from the animal lords, IMO).

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11211 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2017 :  14:47:04  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

You just made me think of something that pertains to a back-burner type of deific question I've purposely been avoiding tackling with my 'Theory of Everything' (Unified Mythology). The question is, "Why aren't the 'beast lord' types more powerful?" True, most of their 'flock' aren't the worshiping types, but they are so universal - so spread throughout the multiverse, one would think they'd still be at least greater gods. Think of the shear number of insects there must be!

But now you made me think of something else - ASPECTS. They ARE that powerful... but they keep splitting. Baast and Asl... err.. Nobanion both have 'cats' (aside from a bunch of other stuff), and we have a couple of other feline deities around Toril, but they are for specific groups/ (Nobanion I would imagine *might* be the 'Lord of Beasts' and actually be THE archtype feline god... but I would think he cared more about large predators as opposed to domestic cats, as Baast would be). So I'm thinking every time a sub-species breaks-off from the main species (which happens all the time), a new 'species Overmind' forms and creates the separate aspect. Thinking creatures like humans make a conscious decision about who or what to worship, or even whether to have faith in anything at all. But animals don't have that luxury - they have a very basic 'us & them' mentality when it comes to other creatures, and thus, their 'gods' would have the same simplistic paradigm. The moment one group starts to think of itself as something different than the main group, this happens automatically, and completely subconsciously (since beasts wouldn't put any thought into it what-so-ever).

So suppose Nobanion is the 'Big Cheese' in the cat world. It would make some sense, considering who we know he really is. That would make him uber-powerful... except every time a new sub-species of cat appears - across the board (and across untold myriad worlds), a little piece of him 'breaks off' and goes its separate way. Now, on some level these are all self-aware avatars of the god, and I suppose there may be some way to force all of them to return (although I think once ANY of them begins to get intelligent worshipers - which may be why they do it - it becomes much harder to 'reel them in', so to speak), but for all intents and purposes they become separate deities as far as most of the universe is concerned. So what this does is create a never-ending cycle of attrition for these animal archtypes - they would indeed be more powerful than human(ish) gods, except that they have hundreds - perhaps thousands - of aspects all operating independently of them. Its basically like having a super-computer, and the archtype would be a single program that would run amazing on its own, except you are also running ten thousand other apps in the background, which sucks all the 'power' right out of the system. I think something along these lines is precisely what happened to the World Serpent.

And its because you were talking about your version of Hathor being multi-aspected with different heads that I got this idea. And he/it would have the big problem of having some intelligent worshipers, making all those aspects far more independent than they would have otherwise been (the difference between a normal avatar, and one of those self-aware, 'Manifestations' like we have down in The Old Empires). This would also make the power of animal archtypes inversely proportionate to the animal animal itself - strong, powerful, majestic creatures are far more likely to gain 'beast cult' status then say, ladybugs. Thus, those more powerful/beautiful creatures would have their aspects splintered the most (as in the case of felines). Nnuuurrrr'C'C (King of Insects from the Melnibonean mythos), on the other hand, probably doesn't have much of a problem with people worshiping his individual aspects. True, you do get the occasional group worshiping a giant centipede, and then there are all the bee and antfolk around, but for the most part, he gets to keep much of his power (unlike his cousin spider-guy, who has one of the worse cases of multiple-personality disorder in the cosmos, plus he has to contend with so many real gods -and archfiends - stealing his thunder).



Yeah, the more I've played with Hathor... the more I like her as playing alias as a mother goddess to a lot of things. I also prefer her as a primordial who is playing at goddess. I picture her as being the original Audumbla (sp?) from Norse Mythology (the great cow that fed Ymir from her teats). I've even adopted her as the true face of Bhalla in the Rashemi pantheon (Bhalla being a twist on Audumbla), and the Rashemi believe that Bhalla infiltrated the Mulans (which from my standpoint... she did).

Now, take that same goddess, and stick her as a mother/fertility/harvest type goddess to minotaurs, yak folk, and ibixians and she'd fit quite well.

Anyway, don't want to hijack the thread. Gonna start another thread just to list out some ideas I'd thrown down quickly for "Katashakan" racial/regional pantheons/god groupings. People can add to it or give me some ideas as they like.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1443 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2017 :  15:26:00  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey AuldDragon, given that Mellifleur and Velsharoon share Death's Embrace, what's their opinion of the other?
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

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Posted - 11 Apr 2017 :  19:23:27  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In P&P, Mellifleur is made an alias of Velsharoon and their origins are not so different as to not be compatible. Of course, you can choose to keep them as separate.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 11 Apr 2017 :  22:53:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

In P&P, Mellifleur is made an alias of Velsharoon and their origins are not so different as to not be compatible. Of course, you can choose to keep them as separate.



There's a glaring issue with that though, in that Velsharoon uses the power of Talos explicitly to become a god. In monster mythology, its very much noted that Mellifleur accidentally stole his power from Bane (it specifically says "in Toril, they say Bane").

My fix for that on Toril was that Velsharoon took over Mellifleur's portfolios on Toril. I have it that Velsharoon used Mellifleur's phylactery in the act to become a lich (recovered during/ possibly after the ToT, whenever Mellifleur's avatar had to come to Toril). I also have it that Velsharoon was a binder who bound Karsus' vestige during the ritual (so he had two mortals who'd ascended to godhood, plus the aid of Talos). You'll find a couple threads around here where I've discovered that concept. The big question is whether or not Velsharoon controls the "godhood", or does Mellifleur actually, OR is there some shared control OR are the two gods totally unaware of the other OR are they going insane (think Azuth and Asmodeus kind of). In fact, one of the ideas I've played with is the idea that Velsharoon went to Abeir and Mellifleur was in Toril (and thus, it was actually Mellifleur killed by the Simbul).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TomCosta
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Posted - 12 Apr 2017 :  00:59:39  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's intriguing.
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TomCosta
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Posted - 12 Apr 2017 :  01:01:53  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm also a fan of the idea that we never quite know with the gods. So it could have been Talos and Bane --both hate Mystra, perhaps the story of Mellifleur is only half the story. Perhaps Velsharoon's full name is Velsharoon Mellifleur or vice versa or Mellifleur means something in another language.
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BARDOBARBAROS
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Posted - 12 Apr 2017 :  07:31:45  Show Profile  Visit BARDOBARBAROS's Homepage Send BARDOBARBAROS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Awesome work...I will subscribe to this topic! Congrats!!!

BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!


"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2)
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LordofBones
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Posted - 12 Apr 2017 :  11:31:15  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

I'm also a fan of the idea that we never quite know with the gods. So it could have been Talos and Bane --both hate Mystra, perhaps the story of Mellifleur is only half the story. Perhaps Velsharoon's full name is Velsharoon Mellifleur or vice versa or Mellifleur means something in another language.



It's heavily implied that Mellifleur hijacked Kyuss's divinity, actually. The divine power that Nerull expended to elevate Kyuss to godhood was altered in some way that Kyuss ended up being stuck in an obelisk, it stands to reason that Mellifleur accidentally rerouting Kyuss's divinity to him is actually what happened. Monster Mythology mentions that Mellifleur hijacked divine power from Bane, true, but it's likely that the author pulled a name from a hat. The illithids imply that Mellifleur actually hijacked divinity from several evil deities, all of which are now less than pleased at him. AuldDragon mentions Falazure, only Falazure may have done so deliberately.

That said, Lathander and Ushas also share Morninglory, Waukeen shares the Marketplace Eternal with three other gods, and Auril and Loki share Winter's Hall.

Personally, I like to think that Death's Embrace itself is divided into two regions: the city of Hopelorn, where Mellifleur rules, and the vast necropolis-mausoleum of the Forsaken Crypt, where Velsharoon dwells.

Edited by - LordofBones on 12 Apr 2017 11:34:38
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 12 Apr 2017 :  22:19:16  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will probably try to write Mellifleur in such a way that he can be interpreted as being the same deity as Velsharoon, or not, as appropriate for a DM's campaign. Either way, I'm not sure Mellifleur was truly worshiped in the Realms prior to Velsharoon's elevation, as that makes it easier for the pair to co-exist.

I may tie Mellifleur's apotheosis to Iyachtu Xvim, as that brings in a the mentioned Bane connection.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  00:46:18  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

I'm also a fan of the idea that we never quite know with the gods. So it could have been Talos and Bane --both hate Mystra, perhaps the story of Mellifleur is only half the story. Perhaps Velsharoon's full name is Velsharoon Mellifleur or vice versa or Mellifleur means something in another language.



It's heavily implied that Mellifleur hijacked Kyuss's divinity, actually. The divine power that Nerull expended to elevate Kyuss to godhood was altered in some way that Kyuss ended up being stuck in an obelisk, it stands to reason that Mellifleur accidentally rerouting Kyuss's divinity to him is actually what happened. Monster Mythology mentions that Mellifleur hijacked divine power from Bane, true, but it's likely that the author pulled a name from a hat. The illithids imply that Mellifleur actually hijacked divinity from several evil deities, all of which are now less than pleased at him. AuldDragon mentions Falazure, only Falazure may have done so deliberately.

That said, Lathander and Ushas also share Morninglory, Waukeen shares the Marketplace Eternal with three other gods, and Auril and Loki share Winter's Hall.

Personally, I like to think that Death's Embrace itself is divided into two regions: the city of Hopelorn, where Mellifleur rules, and the vast necropolis-mausoleum of the Forsaken Crypt, where Velsharoon dwells.



Actually, we have an answer for that as well straight forward in monster mythology.

"What he did not know was that a major god of evil - who varies from pantheon to pantheon in different versions of the myth- was just about to raise a mortal priest to become a demigod through divine ascension. A great backwash of god-magic resonated with Mellifleur's rituals, and the wizard became a demigod instead. Thus, the Lich-Lord came into being by mistake, a glorious irony. Illithid sages have an extraordinary variant to this tale, claiming that the even involved a collective impulse among the gods themselves, so that several evil gods in different worlds were all carrying out the same operation at the same time, and their combined magic effects, summed and transformed, raised Mellifleur not just to deity status but to the status of a lesser god. This would certainly explain why in the Greyhaw campaign, Nerull is said to be the deity who created Mellifleur; in Toril, they say Bane, and in other worlds, other dark names are invoked."

So, perhaps it WAS multiple gods. Maybe it was the same god known by different names on different worlds (which would assume that Bane and Nerull are the same, so I choose to disregard that option). Perhaps the magic itself was kind of like the elven high magic that "reached forward and backward in time" for any magic that matched its criteria, such that Mellifleur actually was created in the different worlds at different times and drew off of different deities. The main thing to note is that the god in Toril and the god in greyhawk are not the same entity. They may have some linkage between them, but they are not the same. So, whenever Ao at the end of the time of troubles lays down the law and says "you will only have power based upon your number of worshippers".... umm, just how many liches do you think there were worshipping Mellifleur? Of those, how many were PASSIONATE in their worship? I'm going with not nearly enough to maintain his godly nature.

So, I'm imagining that after the ToT, Mellifleur was trapped. It should be noted that Mellifleur hid "many magical phylacteries" and perhaps he had one for each "version" of Mellifleur there was (i.e. the one for Greyhawk, the one for Toril, etc....). Now, the mystery I've never revealed was "where" was he trapped, as I've left it open (one idea I had was that Mellifleur's avatar had appeared amongst Larloch's liches).

Oddly, in working up my timeline recently for the United Tharchs of Toril, I'd started setting dates for some of this. I was doing this, because I was basically going to have Soorenar transferred to Abeir, and Velsharoon's Tower Terrible was there. In that tower, under his most powerful wardings, was the phylactery. So, along comes Yaphyll and Mythrell'aa (there's a backstory on their survival, just go with it) along with the high mage-priest of Velsharoon, and Mimuay (Zulkir Lauzoril's daughter, now age 30) a necromancer. Mimuay becomes the avatar of Velsharoon. Lauzoril's clone in Soorenar has its soul split by Velsharoon and it comes to life (similar to what happened with Manshoon, but local to this single clone). This ends up giving me 3 of the Zulkirs of Thay still alive in Abeir to play with.

Here's actually some of the timeline I'd come up with, since I have it handy:

1326 DR - The exiled Halruaan, Velsharoon the Vaunted, begins research on the rise of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul. It is rumored that he visits Ironfang Keep and survives.

1345 - 1354 DR - The dread necromancer, Velsharoon the Vaunted, builds a tower, which he names the Tower Terrible, in the city of Soorenar in Chessenta. He then spends several years visiting Murghom and the Plains of Purple Dust seeking lore on the mortal life of Myrkul.

1358 DR - Time of Troubles - Using knowledge gained from the vestige of Karsus to gain better control over his arcane powers, the renegade red wizard, Velsharoon the Vaunted hunts down the avatar of Mellifleur inhabiting the body of a half-fiend lich rumored to be one of several grandchildren of the line of Garthelaun Darakh "the Goreslayer", fourth ruler of the Darakh Dynasty of ancient Narfell.

(NOTE: for the above, its unstated, but this means that Mellifleur's avatar is inhabiting a great grandchild of Orcus, a "god" of the undeath)

1359 DR - Intrigued by the machinations of his former ally and fellow renegade red wizard, Zhengyi the Witch-King of Vaasa, Velsharoon begins following the actions of Gareth Dragonsbane and company as they steal the wand of Orcus, slay an avatar of Tiamat, and soak the wand in its blood. Unbeknownst to Gareth and company, Velsharoon transports in and gathers a portion of the blood and bile of the dead avatar which have been infused with a remnant of the power of the wand of Orcus.

1364 DR - red wizards of the enclave of Soorenar, under the orders of Szass Tam, invade the home of the renegade red wizard, Velsharoon the Vaunted. This meets with disastrous results. The survivors, upon threat of utter annihilation, declare peace with the renegade red wizard and Velsharoon rewards them for their bravery by providing them several rituals involving undead creation. He however advises that the red wizards must not share these rituals with their cohorts in Thay "who have not dared enough in the field of necromancy". The red wizards request the protection of Zulkir Lauzoril against the wrath of Szass Tam. Lauzoril and the other Zulkirs chastise Tam for threatening the security of their enclave over a matter that he should have handled himself.

1366 DR - Velsharoon the Vaunted enters the Dire Wood of the High Forest. Although challenged by the arcanist Wulgreth and other magical obstacles, Velsharoon obtains a bottle of the pure heart's blood pumping from the Karsestone.

1368 DR - The renegade red wizard and Halruaan exile, Velsharoon the Vaunted, assaults an ancient ruin on Damara's northwestern border, rumored to be named Jiksidur, and slays a gold dragon and its cloud giant guardians . It is rumored that he butchered the dragon on the spot, taking its stone-filled gizzard and brewing it in a cauldron containing blood of the Karsestone, the mixed blood and bile of the avatar of Tiamat, and the bone powder of the former avatar of Mellifleur. Several weeks later, using the Phylactery of Mellifleur and the Skull Staff of the Necromancer in a modified Ritual of Endless Night, Velsharoon ascends to godhood with the sponsorship of the deity Talos. The red wizards of Soorenar are some of the first converts, and many former priests of Myrkul in Thay flock to the city in order to turn the land surrounding the Tower Terrible into a temple complex.

1384 DR - Zulkir of Divination, Yaphyll warns the Zulkir of Illusion that she foresees Mythrell'aa's death in the near future.

1385 DR - After receiving a vision from Leira herself, Mythrell'aa decides it is time to fake her own death and attend to matters in Luneira. Tharchioness Dmitra Flass is elected to become the next Zulkir of Illusion, but is later killed by Malark Springhill.

1385 DR - Zulkir of Divination, Yaphyll, is forced by Zulkir of Necromancy, Szass Tam, to use her most powerful divination to see into the future. Unbeknownst to Tam, she is forced to "split herself and send one half of herself into the future" and this future portion is outside of Tam's control. However, this future self also is touched by the Spellplague.




Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  01:39:34  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Having Mellifleur ascend with multiple "mortal" liches on multiple worlds at multiple times is definitely something I plan to drop in, but I think that *if* Mellifleur and Velsharoon are separate, that scenario is very unlikely. However, if the two are the same, then I think that scenario is *very* likely: As liches ascend, they merge with Mellifleur himself, and the new lich identity is subsumed.

I actually think the illithid tale is the most likely, and that could still happen over time; I plan to make it possibly connected to both Iyachtu Xvim and the battle of Mount Deismaar on Cerilia, and I'll look for other circumstances that might apply.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  01:43:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

I will probably try to write Mellifleur in such a way that he can be interpreted as being the same deity as Velsharoon, or not, as appropriate for a DM's campaign. Either way, I'm not sure Mellifleur was truly worshiped in the Realms prior to Velsharoon's elevation, as that makes it easier for the pair to co-exist.

I may tie Mellifleur's apotheosis to Iyachtu Xvim, as that brings in a the mentioned Bane connection.

Jeff



Oh, another tie in that CAN be applied besides what I've already mentioned as well from 1368 DR . Its tied to the Finder's Bane novel.

This sets the year in GHotR - although its a little incorrect as to what happened
"Walinda, priestess of Bane, attempts to restore the dead god to life by retrieving the Hand of Bane, a lost artifact of evil. Ultimately her plans are thwarted by Joel, the Rebel Bard, and the Hand of Bane is destroyed."

What really happened was Walinda had the Hand of Bane. She was going to use it to resurrect Bane along with a Banelich which held a portion of Bane's divinity. The Banelich said some sexist comment about women not being worshippers of Bane in his day and slaps her and says that he'll do the ritual himself. The Banelich didn't realize that the ritual required a LIVING worshipper of Bane AND that the person performing the ritual couldn't be performing it on themselves. The Banelich turns to Walinda and tries to get her to buy in. She smashes the "Hand of Bane". The Banelich then fights with some followers of Finder and its phylactery is smashed (this essentially releases the essence of Bane "to the cosmos").

You could try to work in that Velsharoon and Talos timed their ritual as well to take and draw on this energy just as the banelich dies. Personally, that feels a little forced to me, AND it doesn't fit with the whole story that Mellifleur is constantly looking over his shoulder for the god that he stole power from, because at that point Bane's dead.

That being said, you COULD have Velsharoon using divination know that "Bane" will die on that day and know that he can recreate the accident that Mellifleur performed years prior (with information that Talos provides, information provided by Karsus <who may have studied Mellifleur's ascension>), and so Velsharoon acquires the phylactery of Mellifleur since its attuned to stealing from Bane.

Its not until a year later (1369 DR) that Xvim frees himself from Zhentil Keep. Three years later "Bane" frees himself "Xvim" ... which honestly I like Wooly's argument that Xvim took the name of Bane.


Another really odd addition that you COULD try to tie into all of this as well, since no dates are given.... 1368 is also the year that Cyric read his own book {or as I prefer to state it, when Cyric read the book that was the avatar of Leira... since Godsbane/Mask (the lord of intrigues) didn't kill Leira (the goddess of lies) as the two were running a longer con game }. When you start tying Leira into this along with the creation of a new god of magic (necromancy) and start playing with the idea that Leira, Savras, and Mystra 1.0 had something in the works.... then it can get really interesting... BUT it also stretches the bounds of believability for some.

Of course, all this does is establish the concept that "Mellifleur" existed prior to 1368 and that "Velsharoon" later ascended and "destroyed" Mellifleur. We can "assume" that based on Ao's new laws after the ToT that Mellifleur had few followers based on his portfolios and thus was on the verge of deific death for lack of worship. That's the story that the people would "know". Now, what ACTUALLY happened in the godly sphere can be a lot of things
(i.e. just gonna throw out some concepts

1) Velsharoon performs the ritual. Velsharoon's in charge. He hates Tam and makes Tam's days suck.
OR
2) Velsharoon performs the ritual... his spirit is used to power the god up..... Velsharoon's persona is tossed to the side and Mellifleur's driving. Mellifleur uses the name of Velsharoon and the story of Velsharoon to fuel new worshippers.
OR
3) Velsharoon ascends but both deific spirits are tied to the same phylactery so both minds can actually create "avatars" and control the godhood. This can explain Velsharoon's erratic behavior where he's "known" to be flirting with Mystra, Shar, and Talos. SIDENOTE HERE: IF Velsharoon had bound the vestige of Karsus as well during the ascension for guidance... you see where I'm going... triply insane?


OR
4) Same as 3, but throw in blindness by the gods when it comes to the workings of the other. They literally don't realize that the other exists (or if they do, they have to work out what the others are doing based on the reactions they get from others)... kind of like godly schizophrenia.

Note, I've kind of leaned towards this last option. It gives me a little more viability to some options when the spellplague happens.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Apr 2017 02:05:45
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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  02:29:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
SPOILER ALERT FOR THE LAST BRIMSTONE ANGELS NOVEL

Oh, and just a further note on the "godly schizophrenia" idea. I've mentioned it a lot over the past few years, so I was surprised to essentially see it start happening.... but with Asmodeus and Azuth, in the latest Brimstone Angels novels. In their scenario it took almost a hundred years before it started coming to a head. Interestingly enough, its during the rough timeframe of the "sundering" that they're split out again (or some might say that Azuth is reemerging from where he's been entrapped as a result of the end of the sundering). It also required the "death" of another divinity (Nanna Sin) to fuel this separation in this instance.

In what I'm working on, its the spellplague that actually breaks up Velsharoon and Mellifleur. Velsharoon goes to Abeir. Mellifleur stays in Toril, using Velsharoon's name to stay alive. The Simbul kills Mellifleur (as she's directed to by the remnant of the divinity of the Yuir deity "The Simbul"?)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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