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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11211 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2014 :  13:16:01  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Speaking of Thar, has there ever been established a link between the orc homeland of Thar in the realms and the other orc homeland of Thar in Mystara (from TSR's GAZ10 - Orcs of Thar).

I am intrigued by there being these additional ogre gods. I went and looked up the mentions as a result.


There's no canon connection that I know of, but considering my personal views on the ogres of Thar, it would be very easy to make one. The ogres of Thar, IMO are clearly the remnant of a Spelljamming colony (deliberate or accidental, i.e. a crashed Ogre Mammoth or two). The unusual appearance of Vaprak and the additional gods, as well as the tribal names "Crystal Sphere" and "Falling Star" and their more sophisticated artwork is what leads me to this conclusion, as spelljamming humanoids tend to be more intelligent and organized than their groundling brethren.

I also think the Thar ogres preserve an earlier aspect of Vaprak, before he merged with a troll god to arrive at his present form and mentality (entirely my own speculation, there hasn't been any other mention of such a thing in existing canon). I'm actively working on the Vaprak write up now, and I'll be incorporating these ideas.

Jeff




Oh, wow, Auld, I'd never noticed that before. I really need to go back through some of the 2nd edition lore. I was so young and poor back then that I may not have had the material to put many 2 and 2's together that I see in the rearview mirror now.


By the way, here's the quote you listed (Elminster's Ecologies, the Great Gray Land of Thar, page 19):

Dozens of ogre tribes inhabit the Great Gray Land.
They have names like Jade Skull, Vaprak#146;s Hammer,
Falling Star, and Crystal Sphere, all names
which hark back to the sophisticated civilization
the ogres once possessed.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2014 :  15:19:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IN the 5e DMG, Mystara is one of the settings mentioned 'out there' in the D&D multiverse, which means it IS connected to everything else.

Some worlds have different 'physics' (Mystara's OD&D rules), while some are 'closed' (Athas), but even a 'closed' world is still connected (bits of Athas made it into Ravenloft, so it wasn't 'impenetrable').

Eberron was technically a 'closed' world/system, because its cosmology was completely different then the others linked together by the Great Wheel (even those that had no direct access to it, like Athas). However, in 5e its listed as one of the 'core worlds', right alongside Aebrynis (Birthright), which was another 'oddball'. Not sure what they did in that regard with EB and DS in 4e.

And then, of course, there is the triumverate - FR, GH, and DL. Thus, as of 5e, all of these worlds are considered part of the D&D multiverse canonically, and thus should be reachable from one-another, even if their crystal sphere is 'closed' (denied planer or Spelljamming access). I am sure Mystara had plenty of unofficial (Ed's Realms) connections to FR, but for a time TSR was trying to keep the fanbases separate (for OD&D and AD&D). They started moving The Known World into 2e, which was great, but they never blended the lore with the other settings, the way they did with most of them.

On another note - Blackmoor was in 3 official D&D settings; its own, plus GH and Mystara, and since GH is definitely connected to FR, thats just one more link, albeit tenuous.

EDIT: Geeze, I almost forgot the most obvious connection; halfings are called 'Hin' in both settings (mostly because we know Ed Greenwood did the halfings in both, but even without that meta-gaming knowledge, its still a canon factoid). Krynn's halflings are completely different, so on some levels, that would mean FR and KW (Known World/Mystara) are even more connected then FR and DL. We also got avariel and Areanea from that setting.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Dec 2014 15:26:36
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2014 :  00:09:05  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Oh, wow, Auld, I'd never noticed that before. I really need to go back through some of the 2nd edition lore. I was so young and poor back then that I may not have had the material to put many 2 and 2's together that I see in the rearview mirror now.


By the way, here's the quote you listed (Elminster's Ecologies, the Great Gray Land of Thar, page 19):

Dozens of ogre tribes inhabit the Great Gray Land.
They have names like Jade Skull, Vaprak#146;s Hammer,
Falling Star, and Crystal Sphere, all names
which hark back to the sophisticated civilization
the ogres once possessed.



Yeah, it was the sort of thing that hit me like a lightning bolt when I was reading through that portion of Thar. It just flows so well together. I figure the Ogres of Thar were from the Ogre nation that is in the sphere of the Steel Star (mentioned in the SJ product Lost Ships, by Ed Greenwood himself). I doubt it was intended, but it just really fits together well. I should point out that Adam Miller (Nightdruid, one of the co-authors of Hackjammer) has taken the Steel Star in another direction, though.

One of the great things about PDF versions of all these 2e products is that it makes it so easy to just search for mentions of Vaprak and collect what people have written in the past.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2014 :  01:08:11  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

IN the 5e DMG, Mystara is one of the settings mentioned 'out there' in the D&D multiverse, which means it IS connected to everything else.

Some worlds have different 'physics' (Mystara's OD&D rules), while some are 'closed' (Athas), but even a 'closed' world is still connected (bits of Athas made it into Ravenloft, so it wasn't 'impenetrable').

Eberron was technically a 'closed' world/system, because its cosmology was completely different then the others linked together by the Great Wheel (even those that had no direct access to it, like Athas). However, in 5e its listed as one of the 'core worlds', right alongside Aebrynis (Birthright), which was another 'oddball'. Not sure what they did in that regard with EB and DS in 4e.

And then, of course, there is the triumverate - FR, GH, and DL. Thus, as of 5e, all of these worlds are considered part of the D&D multiverse canonically, and thus should be reachable from one-another, even if their crystal sphere is 'closed' (denied planer or Spelljamming access). I am sure Mystara had plenty of unofficial (Ed's Realms) connections to FR, but for a time TSR was trying to keep the fanbases separate (for OD&D and AD&D). They started moving The Known World into 2e, which was great, but they never blended the lore with the other settings, the way they did with most of them.

On another note - Blackmoor was in 3 official D&D settings; its own, plus GH and Mystara, and since GH is definitely connected to FR, thats just one more link, albeit tenuous.

EDIT: Geeze, I almost forgot the most obvious connection; halfings are called 'Hin' in both settings (mostly because we know Ed Greenwood did the halfings in both, but even without that meta-gaming knowledge, its still a canon factoid). Krynn's halflings are completely different, so on some levels, that would mean FR and KW (Known World/Mystara) are even more connected then FR and DL. We also got avariel and Areanea from that setting.



2nd Edition explicitly connected every setting in some way. They all connected to the Great Wheel, although the denizens of the worlds didn't always realize it, and there were sometimes additional barriers (Dark Sun and Birthright specifically had planar barriers); Birthright came too late to have anything written about Spelljamming in its sphere, but On Hallowed Ground pretty clearly inferred it is out there somewhere.

Mystara was not published long enough in 2e to get enough written about its planar connections, but most of the good-aligned Immortals did get planar realms in the list in the back of Warriors of Heaven. Also, while the Aranea did first appear in Mystara, the Avariel did not, as far as I know. They were a non-elf demihuman race in Dragon #51 called the Al Karak Elam with no fixed campaign setting; PHBR8 The Complete Book of Elves made them elves, and then Forgotten Realms added them to setting. Avariel (as Ee'aar) did not appear in Mystara until around 1996, with the Red Steel/Savage Coast/Orc's Head Peninsula products.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11211 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2014 :  13:19:41  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

IN the 5e DMG, Mystara is one of the settings mentioned 'out there' in the D&D multiverse, which means it IS connected to everything else.

Some worlds have different 'physics' (Mystara's OD&D rules), while some are 'closed' (Athas), but even a 'closed' world is still connected (bits of Athas made it into Ravenloft, so it wasn't 'impenetrable').

Eberron was technically a 'closed' world/system, because its cosmology was completely different then the others linked together by the Great Wheel (even those that had no direct access to it, like Athas). However, in 5e its listed as one of the 'core worlds', right alongside Aebrynis (Birthright), which was another 'oddball'. Not sure what they did in that regard with EB and DS in 4e.

And then, of course, there is the triumverate - FR, GH, and DL. Thus, as of 5e, all of these worlds are considered part of the D&D multiverse canonically, and thus should be reachable from one-another, even if their crystal sphere is 'closed' (denied planer or Spelljamming access). I am sure Mystara had plenty of unofficial (Ed's Realms) connections to FR, but for a time TSR was trying to keep the fanbases separate (for OD&D and AD&D). They started moving The Known World into 2e, which was great, but they never blended the lore with the other settings, the way they did with most of them.

On another note - Blackmoor was in 3 official D&D settings; its own, plus GH and Mystara, and since GH is definitely connected to FR, thats just one more link, albeit tenuous.

EDIT: Geeze, I almost forgot the most obvious connection; halfings are called 'Hin' in both settings (mostly because we know Ed Greenwood did the halfings in both, but even without that meta-gaming knowledge, its still a canon factoid). Krynn's halflings are completely different, so on some levels, that would mean FR and KW (Known World/Mystara) are even more connected then FR and DL. We also got avariel and Areanea from that setting.




Don't forget that D&D Online connected Eberron and the realms. Also, on how EB's connections to the planes change..... I half wonder if that's not how ALL the crystal spheres work and people have simply ascribed other planar constructs to them based on how they view them at that time (great wheel, great tree, etc..)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11211 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2014 :  13:32:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Ysshara the Lorekeeper: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2014/12/ysshara-the-lorekeeper/

Like Mirklak, Ysshara received a brief mention in the Great Grey Land of Thar booklet of Elminster's Ecologies. With Mirklak and Vaprak, the three deities form a nice small pantheon for ogres, and I felt I needed to give considerable depth to her, so she didn't seem like just an ogre version of the orcish Luthic. Ysshara turned into what I think is a very interesting deity, with considerable potential to make ogres into a more well-rounded race in any AD&D campaign.

Jeff



By the way, I wanted to stress I like the noted link you gave for Ysshara and Cegilune. I like this because of some homebrew lore that I have for the rough area that Dazzlerdal and myself had created surrounding the Unapproachable East about a year or two back. It revolved around millennia ago there being a hag population in what eventually became Narathmault/Dun-Tharos when it was a subterranean city for hags named Bheuristahl. This hag population worked with the giants and bred with the ogres in the area, but the ogres would have had some reverence for Cegilune. My take on the spelljamming ogres were that they arrived and used their intelligence to organize terrestrial ogres.

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18675&whichpage=3

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2014 :  13:58:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Don't forget that D&D Online connected Eberron and the realms. Also, on how EB's connections to the planes change..... I half wonder if that's not how ALL the crystal spheres work and people have simply ascribed other planar constructs to them based on how they view them at that time (great wheel, great tree, etc..)
I've had notions along these same lines, back when there used to be 'deep' discussions on the WotC boards.

I look at the Great Wheel cosmology as the Over-cosmology, literally. If we go back to the theory that all the (main) planes are 'infinite', then one could surmise that there would be an infinite amount of regions within them - one for each setting/world/sphere. I liken this to a large city or town, with smaller 'neighborhoods' where people share similar customs. Each setting is linked to a different part of a plane, thus, the planes themselves are like 'poor reflections' of the Prime Material, but each flavored by its own essence.

This works particularly well with the elemental planes that they keep changing on us; if we imagine that the Maelstrom is the natural state for the Inner Planes, and within it are an near-infinite number of 'elemental nodes' (some as big as worlds) floating within it, then we can see how its not really the planes that have changed, merely 'mortal perception' of therm. If I were to travel from earth to the 'plane of fire' (and used protection ), I could spend my whole life wandering around thinking it was infinite, when rally, I'd just be on a world-sized blob of elemental fire floating in an elemental soup. So the idea of me walking from Earth to Greyhawk to The Realms is theoretically possible, but ridiculous in execution. that would be like them building a road between here and Mars, and me thinking I could just walk there.

So mortals wind-up with two wrongful conclusions - that the elemental planes are separate (when only regions of them are), and that some worlds have their own versions of them (like Eberron). What Eberron probably really has is 'closed' elemental spheres. If we take my musings of how the planes interact (which 5e seems to also embrace now), the Eberron 'elemental planes' (worlds) are really just 'domains' (demi-planes) controlled by a 'spheric guardian' (domain lord). Every plane and demi-plane has them (or nearly every... one can further muse on what guardian-less planes would be like). Thus, like a normal 'closed sphere', one can not enter or exit the demi-plane without some major mojo (an artifact, conjunction, or deity). So Eberron's people would not realize there was more 'outside' of Kythri - their own, personal 'Maelstrom' bubble - and a travelers from elsewhere would get to the barrier separating it, not be able to get through, and wander in another direction (if one had the means to actually travel that far, in that direction, and actual find such a thing within the infinite elemental chaos.. it would have to be pure, dumb luck).

So, yeah; just my 'neighborhoods' theory in retrospect, which can be applied to any of the planes (it works well with the Feywild too - I imagine a 'sea of dreams' wherein floats islands that mirror each worlds geography). The 'material' that separates each neighborhood would depend on the plane, of course.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Dec 2014 13:59:35
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2014 :  14:21:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The same would go for the Outer Planes as well. People following the Olympic Pantheon would wind-up in Olympus, whereas elves would wind-up in Arvandor. A layer might amount to a 'municipality', with neighborhoods (Godly Domains) within it. Since worshipers go to the afterlife they expect to go, and can only 'leave' with permission by the ruling domain lord(s), most petitioners (and visitors) would have little or no knowledge of what lie beyond their 'neighborhood' (domain).

Gray Richardson and I had a theory that the phlogiston (space in Spelljammer) was really just the Ethereal plane. When you leave a world by magical means, you automatically enter it (unlike when you leave it by technological/natural means, when you simply enter 'normal space'). The space within a crystal sphere - Wildspace - is the border ethereal, which is why you can see 'see' and interact with the worlds (prime material). When on a world (within its gravity-well), you see the ethereal just as its described - it only changes to these other states (Wildspace, Phlogiston) when outside a world. This actually explains much of the planer interaction, as well how we can have both traditional 'outer space' (in some early D&D products) and also all the spelljammer silliness (sorry... my opinions are showing ).

So you can have the U.S.S Enterprise in the Sol System... and you can also have a space-galleon from Space: 1889 within the same universe. They could pass each other, and never see each other, because one is traveling through normal, (near) empty space, whilst the other is traveling through 'magical' (ethereal) space. Of course, it more likely that they are simply in different dimensions (Quantum universe) as well (but not necessarily - both are possible simultaneously, except worlds that embrace magic and tech are fairly rare - they would have 'Steampunk Physics').

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Dec 2014 14:21:58
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2014 :  23:31:56  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

By the way, I wanted to stress I like the noted link you gave for Ysshara and Cegilune. I like this because of some homebrew lore that I have for the rough area that Dazzlerdal and myself had created surrounding the Unapproachable East about a year or two back. It revolved around millennia ago there being a hag population in what eventually became Narathmault/Dun-Tharos when it was a subterranean city for hags named Bheuristahl. This hag population worked with the giants and bred with the ogres in the area, but the ogres would have had some reverence for Cegilune. My take on the spelljamming ogres were that they arrived and used their intelligence to organize terrestrial ogres.

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18675&whichpage=3



Thanks! It seemed important to do so, since hags are essentially what are called ogresses in much mythology and folklore (at least, when translated into English). I try to slip in any of these connections where ever I can, sometimes as easter eggs; for example, I set up Ysshara as the prototype of the Japanese Onibaba, without explicitly saying so.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2014 :  01:54:26  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Gray Richardson and I had a theory that the phlogiston (space in Spelljammer) was really just the Ethereal plane. When you leave a world by magical means, you automatically enter it (unlike when you leave it by technological/natural means, when you simply enter 'normal space'). The space within a crystal sphere - Wildspace - is the border ethereal, which is why you can see 'see' and interact with the worlds (prime material). When on a world (within its gravity-well), you see the ethereal just as its described - it only changes to these other states (Wildspace, Phlogiston) when outside a world. This actually explains much of the planer interaction, as well how we can have both traditional 'outer space' (in some early D&D products) and also all the spelljammer silliness (sorry... my opinions are showing ).


That requires ignoring the existing canon on what Spelljammer has to say about Wildspace and the Phlogiston, especially as the Phlogiston is completely cut off from the planes: inner, outer, transitive, demi, you name it. The phlogiston is more like the raw material of creation in a completely unordered state; the swirls and eddies in the gases occasionally come together to randomly form a crystal sphere. Creator gods can also do so, but they have to get out into the Flow in the first place, which is no easy feat for a deity. As you might expect, I'm a fan of Spelljammer, "silliness" and all. :)

Being the second edition player I am, I see the planar layout from 2e as the "correct" one, and any other layout is simply a misunderstanding by the backwards Primes. :)

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11211 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2014 :  12:19:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Gray Richardson and I had a theory that the phlogiston (space in Spelljammer) was really just the Ethereal plane. When you leave a world by magical means, you automatically enter it (unlike when you leave it by technological/natural means, when you simply enter 'normal space'). The space within a crystal sphere - Wildspace - is the border ethereal, which is why you can see 'see' and interact with the worlds (prime material). When on a world (within its gravity-well), you see the ethereal just as its described - it only changes to these other states (Wildspace, Phlogiston) when outside a world. This actually explains much of the planer interaction, as well how we can have both traditional 'outer space' (in some early D&D products) and also all the spelljammer silliness (sorry... my opinions are showing ).


That requires ignoring the existing canon on what Spelljammer has to say about Wildspace and the Phlogiston, especially as the Phlogiston is completely cut off from the planes: inner, outer, transitive, demi, you name it. The phlogiston is more like the raw material of creation in a completely unordered state; the swirls and eddies in the gases occasionally come together to randomly form a crystal sphere. Creator gods can also do so, but they have to get out into the Flow in the first place, which is no easy feat for a deity. As you might expect, I'm a fan of Spelljammer, "silliness" and all. :)

Being the second edition player I am, I see the planar layout from 2e as the "correct" one, and any other layout is simply a misunderstanding by the backwards Primes. :)

Jeff



Yeah, I'd prefer separating the phlogiston from anything else as well. I similarly like the ideas put forth about their being a plane of time that's unlike the outer and inner planes as well. I see these as all different "frequencies" that interact with each other.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2014 :  19:01:41  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To each their own - I chalk all of these edition-discrepancies up to 'mortal misunderstanding' of how it all really works.

I have no problem with magic working, or of mythical creatures existing. In an infinite universe, all that is possible (magic simply becomes some sort of 'super science' beyond our current comprehension).

What I do have problems with is Spalljamming, because we know it isn't possible. We've had 'real' spacecraft in D&D since the beginning (Expedition to the Barrier Peaks). We don't know how magic works, but we do know how 'outer space' works. Spalljamming isn't 'fantasy', its lunacy. By saying a non-technological or non-natural object exiting the atmosphere enters another plane (or rather, a border-plane, at first), we can then merge the absurd with the real, otherwise it just falls apart. Wildspace cannot be intrastellar space, nor can the Phlogiston be interstellar space (notice the spelling) - we already have RW definitions and physics for those. We know that the international space station does not automatically have its own gravity plane and air bubble.

And that is why the original 2e definitions of what those are in SJ must be wrong. You CANNOT redefine a known scientific phenomena. You can add to it, embellish it, or do just about whatever you want to it, but you cannot disregard it. If you say that Spelljamming was taking place 'just outside normal space' (ethereal, border ethereal) then I can buy that. If you say it takes the place of it, I have no time for such rubbish. If you think Spelljamming works, then you must be one of those people who believe we've never really landed on the moon, because you can't have both.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Dec 2014 19:03:32
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 04 Dec 2014 :  20:48:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have no problem with the way space travel works in Spelljammer.*

For one thing, I don't believe we know the origin of the ship in Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. It could have come from the far future of Oerth; it could have somehow dropped into Greyspace from a different universe entirely. There is an astronomical feature in Greyspace that the ship could have traveled thru to get there, from anywhere else or from another time entirely.

And it's not entirely without precedent for something from a non-D&D universe to appear in the D&D multiverse. In Spelljammer canon, we have Ed's own article detailing Refuge and Below; anything up to and including modern army soldiers and cartoon characters can be encountered on Below.

Plus, there is a Nehwon ghoul in the Realms.

We also know that the Realms has connections to Earth. Yet we have -- in canon, in multiple sources -- blurbs saying that the physics of the Realms are not the same as the physics of the real world. Electronics are specifically sited -- they don't work in the Realms.

So if we accept as canon that some examples of real world physics do not apply to the Realms, why can we not accept that for space travel?

Even without that, how can we accept humanoids more than 20 feet tall, giant flying reptiles with flaming breath, or gods that can literally change aspects of reality on a whim, but not accept space travel happening in a different manner?

*Note: I do have an issue with the way spelljamming helms operate, but I've come up with what I feel is a more elegant way to explain that.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Dec 2014 20:54:13
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2014 :  23:18:52  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yep, I'm of the view that RW physics and "rules" only apply where it's specifically stated that they do or it is a "given" (i.e. gravity). I too have no problem with the 'physics' of Spelljammer and certainly don't think that there is any imperative to apply RW physics to the concept. If we can accept that a human can conjure up fire by mumbling some nonsensical words while rolling a ball of bat pooh and sulphur between his fingers, why can't we accept a vessel in the phologiston having its own gravity plane and air bubble? I actually like the way that stuff works in Spelljammer.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 05 Dec 2014 :  11:37:24  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Yep, I'm of the view that RW physics and "rules" only apply where it's specifically stated that they do or it is a "given" (i.e. gravity). I too have no problem with the 'physics' of Spelljammer and certainly don't think that there is any imperative to apply RW physics to the concept. If we can accept that a human can conjure up fire by mumbling some nonsensical words while rolling a ball of bat pooh and sulphur between his fingers, why can't we accept a vessel in the phologiston having its own gravity plane and air bubble? I actually like the way that stuff works in Spelljammer.

-- George Krashos



That's pretty much my opinion on the matter. I don't see D&D magic as any more plausible that Spelljammer physics. I actually don't think I'd like it if it were more realistic; a regular scifi game would do it "better" to an extent. Instead, you get things that would break suspension of disbelief in most scifi games, such as worlds on the backs of turtles, crescent worlds, asteroid cities, and enormous stellar trees. I love the craziness in Spelljammer. :D

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 25 Dec 2014 :  10:56:21  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Stronmaus the Storm Lord: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2014/12/stronmaus-the-storm-lord/

Stronmaus the Storm Lord is the most powerful member of the Ordning outside of Annam, and is the de facto leader of the pantheon. He is the exuberant patron of the storm and good cloud giants, and holds domain over the seas and skies, sunshine, and weather of all sorts.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
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Posted - 26 Dec 2014 :  02:10:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Stronmaus the Storm Lord: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2014/12/stronmaus-the-storm-lord/

Stronmaus the Storm Lord is the most powerful member of the Ordning outside of Annam, and is the de facto leader of the pantheon. He is the exuberant patron of the storm and good cloud giants, and holds domain over the seas and skies, sunshine, and weather of all sorts.

Jeff




Just wondering, how much of this came from canon links? I ask because some of this stuff makes Stronmaus seem inordinately like Thor, except that he's a giant deity (though some here have stated in the past that the Norse pantheon and the giant pantheon seem somewhat similar with Annam resembling Odin). The fact that he's wielding a hammer of thunderbolts that returns when thrown for instance. Granted, this deity is more smiling and less grim than Thor would be.

Oh, and your possible ties of Stronmaus to the breaking apart of the moon.... I'd like to hear more of your thoughts there, given that we've got a lot of individuals being rumored to be involved there.

I like your references to a shrine in the Storm Horns/Thunder Peaks, and wonder if it has ties to the old Cloudlands of Avaerether.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 26 Dec 2014 :  03:55:37  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Just wondering, how much of this came from canon links? I ask because some of this stuff makes Stronmaus seem inordinately like Thor, except that he's a giant deity (though some here have stated in the past that the Norse pantheon and the giant pantheon seem somewhat similar with Annam resembling Odin). The fact that he's wielding a hammer of thunderbolts that returns when thrown for instance. Granted, this deity is more smiling and less grim than Thor would be.


Those similarities are pretty much canon; primarily from DMGR4 Monster Mythology, as are the similarities between Annam and Odin. It seems to me that these elements, along with of course Surtr's and Thrym's obsession, is one of the reasons for the long conflict between the Giant and Norse pantheons.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Oh, and your possible ties of Stronmaus to the breaking apart of the moon.... I'd like to hear more of your thoughts there, given that we've got a lot of individuals being rumored to be involved there.


That's basically taken from the description of Annam's Sky Cleaver axe in the Titan of Twilight; the haft had images of a number of the giantish gods, and the image of Stronmaus was of him "smashing moons with his mighty hammer." Seemed like a logical leap to turn it into a representation of a giantish myth about the creation of the Tears of Selune. If there is anything specific connecting the two, or any other material with such a representation, I don't know of it. I don't really have any firm view on the origin of the Tears.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I like your references to a shrine in the Storm Horns/Thunder Peaks, and wonder if it has ties to the old Cloudlands of Avaerether.



I'd forgotten about the Cloudlands when I created it; I made it up to explain the seemingly large population of good giants in the mountains. It probably would have been important to the Cloudlands if it really is as old as it is rumored to be.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 08 Jan 2015 :  07:57:36  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Vaprak the Destroyer: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2015/01/vaprak-the-destroyer/

Vaprak is the deity of ogres and trolls, and as befits those races, he is a savage and destructive god. With an alternate view of Vaprak from Elminster's Ecologies, he becomes a much more interesting god than a single-mindedly destructive god, although that is still his predominant personality trait.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 20 Jan 2015 :  01:38:06  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Iíve completed a set of formal rules for handling specialty priests for dragons. These rules are compatible with the Council of Wyrms Dragon-Priest kit and can be used with PCs. They are also usable outside of that setting, and replace the rules in the Cult of the Dragon for draconic specialty priests. These rules will be familiar to those who are familiar with the previous post I made on draconic specialty priests, as well as my entry on Tiamat, although they are now more detailed.

The rules can be read or downloaded here: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2015/01/formalized-rules-for-dragon-priests/

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 02 Feb 2015 :  06:09:21  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Annam the All-Father: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2015/02/annam-the-all-father/

Annam is the patriarch of the giants, mortal and divine. He is said to be the creator of worlds, laying the foundation upon which other pantheons have built upon. The eons he has existed and the disunity of his children has caused him to withdraw from the daily activities of his family, abdicating much of his responsibility to Stronmaus and Hiatea. While his power is nearly unrivaled, he spends much of his time watching the events of the multiverse from afar.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
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Posted - 03 Feb 2015 :  01:29:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Annam the All-Father: http://blog.aulddragon.com/2015/02/annam-the-all-father/

Annam is the patriarch of the giants, mortal and divine. He is said to be the creator of worlds, laying the foundation upon which other pantheons have built upon. The eons he has existed and the disunity of his children has caused him to withdraw from the daily activities of his family, abdicating much of his responsibility to Stronmaus and Hiatea. While his power is nearly unrivaled, he spends much of his time watching the events of the multiverse from afar.

Jeff



Hmmm, I like this as well, though I'd probably change some. The hint of a linkage to Ymir is interesting, but I like that its discounted, since Ymir needed to die in order to make the world.

Just to note, you hint that Annam mated with Cegilune or another deity to produce Vaprak, but his son Grolantor also mated with Cegilune. Not that that would be outside the possibilities. Personally, my take on the various races would be:

Annam and Cegilune mate, producing Eldritch Giants

Grolantor and Cegilune mate, producing bog giants

Grolantor and a dual-headed draconic deity mate, producing ettins

Vaprak and Othea mate, producing ogres

Vaprak and Cegilune mate creating the Ogre Magi

The shadow giants, I'd be intrigued to hear what others may see as a potential godly mixing which produced them. My first thoughts were Karontor and Cegilune producing them, but he has the verbeeg and fomorians.


This looks like an easter egg too "On the haft is carved various scenes of giantish mythology: Stronmaus smashing moons with his mighty hammer, "

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 03 Feb 2015 :  05:12:53  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, I like this as well, though I'd probably change some. The hint of a linkage to Ymir is interesting, but I like that its discounted, since Ymir needed to die in order to make the world.


Just because the myth says Ymir died doesn't mean that has to be the reality of D&D; canonically, the draconic Tiamat is the same as in the Enuma Elish, and in that myth she was killed. I actually think the story of Ymir and the perception of Annam as a creator of worlds works really well, especially as a distorted understanding by worshipers. I really like connecting these elements while keeping them simultaneously mysterious.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Just to note, you hint that Annam mated with Cegilune or another deity to produce Vaprak, but his son Grolantor also mated with Cegilune. Not that that would be outside the possibilities. Personally, my take on the various races would be:


Yep, I made that hint conscious of Grolantor's case. In Annam and Vaprak's case, it is all pure speculation. The true relationship between them is unknown.

On a related note, I've never actually found a sky goddess (or multiple sky goddesses) who strikes me as an appropriate mother to the regular giantish gods.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Vaprak and Othea mate, producing ogres


I agree with this for the ogres along the Sword Coast/Heartlands, but the ogres in Thar are quite different culturally, and I think they're from space. See my entry on Vaprak and some earlier discussion in this thread on that.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

This looks like an easter egg too "On the haft is carved various scenes of giantish mythology: Stronmaus smashing moons with his mighty hammer, "



It was mentioned in the Twilight Giants Saga (which is where that axe is from). I mentioned it in my Stronmaus write-up; on Toril, I think it forms the giantish myth on the origin of the Tears of Selune. I can't recall any other reference to a similar story anywhere else.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
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Posted - 04 Feb 2015 :  17:04:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, I like this as well, though I'd probably change some. The hint of a linkage to Ymir is interesting, but I like that its discounted, since Ymir needed to die in order to make the world.


Just because the myth says Ymir died doesn't mean that has to be the reality of D&D; canonically, the draconic Tiamat is the same as in the Enuma Elish, and in that myth she was killed. I actually think the story of Ymir and the perception of Annam as a creator of worlds works really well, especially as a distorted understanding by worshipers. I really like connecting these elements while keeping them simultaneously mysterious.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Just to note, you hint that Annam mated with Cegilune or another deity to produce Vaprak, but his son Grolantor also mated with Cegilune. Not that that would be outside the possibilities. Personally, my take on the various races would be:


Yep, I made that hint conscious of Grolantor's case. In Annam and Vaprak's case, it is all pure speculation. The true relationship between them is unknown.

On a related note, I've never actually found a sky goddess (or multiple sky goddesses) who strikes me as an appropriate mother to the regular giantish gods.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Vaprak and Othea mate, producing ogres


I agree with this for the ogres along the Sword Coast/Heartlands, but the ogres in Thar are quite different culturally, and I think they're from space. See my entry on Vaprak and some earlier discussion in this thread on that.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

This looks like an easter egg too "On the haft is carved various scenes of giantish mythology: Stronmaus smashing moons with his mighty hammer, "



It was mentioned in the Twilight Giants Saga (which is where that axe is from). I mentioned it in my Stronmaus write-up; on Toril, I think it forms the giantish myth on the origin of the Tears of Selune. I can't recall any other reference to a similar story anywhere else.

Jeff



True on the part about Ymir not necessarily having died (or he could have "died" and been rerisen... or he could have just "died" in one crystal sphere...). Again, I do like this reference.... leaving it vague was a wise choice.

Speaking of Vaprak.... do we have any origins for the creation of trolls (of the various different types at that) canonically?

On the idea of a sky goddess to which Annam may have mated to produce his giant progeny.... these children were the gods specifically over the storm, hill, cloud, and stone giants (and the voadkyns or wood giants).... this may not fit well, but what about Skadi? She was a winter goddess, up high in the mountains, and she was a giantess. Granted, later she married Njord, but that was only after her own father was slain and she forced the Aesir to grant her a husband in recompense. Nothing says that she wasn't bedding Annam prior to that. Hell, given the marital discord between Skadi and Njord (she was the mountains, he was the sea), nothing says she wasn't cuckolding him as well. Not sure if I like it, but its the closest thing to a sky goddess who is a giantess that I could think of. Granted, its also noted that Odin also bedded Skadi later on to produce children to him as well. Granted, it could also just as easily be Auril, Shar, or even Selune as well.

Along those lines, I also present another "giantess". As a night goddess, she could be a "sky goddess"... and she has a husband named Annar... similar to Annam..... and I submit the possibility that before Selune and Shar divided (which isn't canonical) perhaps the combined entity that was them was Annam's wife.

Nat: Night
Night is a beautiful giantess with dark skin and hair as the midnight black. She is the daughter of Narfi, one of the first giants. She has been married three times, her first husband was Aud, her second husband was Annar, they had a daughter named Earth. Her third husband was Delling "Dawn" they had a son named Dag "Day". Nat and Dag were both given a chariot and put into the sky, to ride across the heaven.
- See more at: http://www.viking-mythology.com/jotuns.php#sthash.uLkjoGS9.dpuf


I agree on your thoughts on the spelljamming ogres. I really like that idea.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
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Poland
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Posted - 04 Feb 2015 :  20:37:24  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nice material, especialy on the gods of giants. Annam being Ymir as the Allfather, was also something I though of. Conan did something similar with Ymir. And about the goddess with which Annam mated, Ymir is described in the myths as hermaphrodite of sorts, able to produce offspring without a partner.
Whie I like sleyvas suggestion about Nat, there is another goddess that coud fit: Ilmatar of the Finnish pantheon. A goddess of Sky/Air, who is also said to reproduce without a partner. Not to mention, the Finnish and Norse pantheons, had some influence on eachother, so she een fit with Norse-like character of of the Gigantish pantheon.
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 05 Feb 2015 :  00:15:07  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Speaking of Vaprak.... do we have any origins for the creation of trolls (of the various different types at that) canonically?


Not that I'm aware of, either for the trolls of FR or another connected setting. Of course, being a god of a race doesn't mean that one must predate the race (this seems to be the case of many of the giantish-related deities). I think Vaprak was also once two separate deities, one for ogres and one for trolls, explaining much of the differences between the two races' religious practices.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On the idea of a sky goddess to which Annam may have mated to produce his giant progeny.... these children were the gods specifically over the storm, hill, cloud, and stone giants (and the voadkyns or wood giants).... this may not fit well, but what about Skadi? She was a winter goddess, up high in the mountains, and she was a giantess. Granted, later she married Njord, but that was only after her own father was slain and she forced the Aesir to grant her a husband in recompense. Nothing says that she wasn't bedding Annam prior to that. Hell, given the marital discord between Skadi and Njord (she was the mountains, he was the sea), nothing says she wasn't cuckolding him as well. Not sure if I like it, but its the closest thing to a sky goddess who is a giantess that I could think of. Granted, its also noted that Odin also bedded Skadi later on to produce children to him as well. Granted, it could also just as easily be Auril, Shar, or even Selune as well.


It's likely that many of Annam's children don't share mothers, as well. I think Grolantor and Karontor were probably by a different mother than the rest, Hiatea and Diancastra probably had non-godly parents (I suspect Hiatea was borne to a Firbolg mother and Diancastra was born to a Storm Giant mother). Iallanis was also probably borne to yet another deity as well. The reasons are mostly due to the generational differences between them.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Nice material, especialy on the gods of giants. Annam being Ymir as the Allfather, was also something I though of. Conan did something similar with Ymir. And about the goddess with which Annam mated, Ymir is described in the myths as hermaphrodite of sorts, able to produce offspring without a partner.
Whie I like sleyvas suggestion about Nat, there is another goddess that coud fit: Ilmatar of the Finnish pantheon. A goddess of Sky/Air, who is also said to reproduce without a partner. Not to mention, the Finnish and Norse pantheons, had some influence on eachother, so she een fit with Norse-like character of of the Gigantish pantheon.


Thanks, glad you liked it. I'll be giving more thought to these suggestions as I work on the cultural pantheons later.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
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Posted - 07 Feb 2015 :  00:39:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Nice material, especialy on the gods of giants. Annam being Ymir as the Allfather, was also something I though of. Conan did something similar with Ymir. And about the goddess with which Annam mated, Ymir is described in the myths as hermaphrodite of sorts, able to produce offspring without a partner.
Whie I like sleyvas suggestion about Nat, there is another goddess that coud fit: Ilmatar of the Finnish pantheon. A goddess of Sky/Air, who is also said to reproduce without a partner. Not to mention, the Finnish and Norse pantheons, had some influence on eachother, so she een fit with Norse-like character of of the Gigantish pantheon.




Hmmmm, I literally JUST noticed something on rereading what I posted. So, If Annam corresponds to Annar in the Nat/Night version of Selune and Shar.... then the third husband of Nat/Night is "Dawn" and they had a son named "Day"...... so two sun deities possibly.... All just some suppositions that could be played with.


Her third husband was Delling "Dawn" they had a son named Dag "Day". Nat and Dag were both given a chariot and put into the sky, to ride across the heaven.

Then there's the first husband.... Aud.... simply short name that starts with an A........hmmmmm.... this could actually maybe work in some theories.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
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Poland
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Posted - 25 Feb 2015 :  12:44:21  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, while I like Annam being connected to Ymir, there are clues he isn't the first giant deity, like Memnor being sometimes described as his brother, and Ulutiu being able to father the Giant-kin races on Toril.
Maybe Ymir is a title, and numerous holders of the name were merged in the Norse myths into one? Especialy that Ulutiu has some Ymir-like elements.

By the way AuldDragon, will you include Ulutiu in the project, or is he to world specific? He's an interesting deity, but it seems that giants and giant-kin rather don't worship him.

Edited by - Baltas on 25 Feb 2015 12:54:31
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AuldDragon
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Posted - 25 Feb 2015 :  13:00:43  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Also, while I like Annam being connected to Ymir, there are clues he isn't the first giant deity, like Memnor being described as his brother, and Ulutiu being able to father the Giant-kin races on Toril.
Maybe Ymir is a title, and numerous holders of the name were merged in the Norse myths into one? Especialy that Ulutiu has some Ymir-like elements.

Bu the way AuldDragon, will you include Ulutiu in the project, or is he to world specific?



I assume you mean that if Memnor is Annam's brother, then they have to have a mother? That's not necessarily the case. Normal biology really doesn't apply to gods; they could be self-created or spawned from the cosmos itself. Personally, I think Memnor is Stronmaus's brother, as the dynamic between the gods works better that way IMO.

As for Ulutiu, he's not a giant deity, and the giantkin don't worship him. He was already covered in Powers and Pantheons anyway. Him being the father of the giantkin doesn't really say much, other than that the giantkin of Toril (firbolgs at least) are younger than those of other worlds, since Hiatea was raised by them somewhere before joining the ranks of the Ordning, and there's a clear indication she was already established as a deity before Annam met Othea.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
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Posted - 25 Feb 2015 :  13:46:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
that brings up a question. Does anyone recall... has Othea been given a deity entry AND has she ever officially been acknowledged as a goddess (I'd look, but I'm headed for work). Just wondering if she weren't a primordial of some sort local to Toril.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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