Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 Running the Realms
 [2e] Monster Mythology Update Project
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 18

AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2021 :  06:02:49  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thrig’ki the Rapacious: https://bit.ly/2QCBolt

Another of the neogi deities from Dragon Magazine #214, Thrig’ki is one of the more interesting deities. It represents the closest thing the spidery neogi have to “love;” their emotion is much closer to envy, jealousy, and covetousness. Due to its purview over these emotions, it has come to also represent trade and commerce as well.

If you’ve been enjoying these entries, please consider supporting the project on Patreon or Ko-Fi (Links on the blog).

Jeff


My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
Go to Top of Page

TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
871 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2021 :  21:54:59  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seems very Ferengi like. :-)
Go to Top of Page

AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2021 :  06:06:36  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

Seems very Ferengi like. :-)




But far darker, I hope! :)

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
Go to Top of Page

AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2021 :  07:12:44  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Alathrien Druanna, the Rune Mistress: https://bit.ly/34BKFNK

A minor, nearly forgotten member of the Seldarine, Alathrian Druanna is the goddess of writing, subservient to Labelas Enoreth in his role as keeper of history. Because of her portfolio on writing, she has come to hold the fields of conjuration, geometric, and runic magic as well, although only a small number of elves still follow her tenets.

If you’ve been enjoying these entries, please consider supporting the project on Patreon or Ko-Fi (Links on the blog).

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11211 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2021 :  18:43:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey AuldDragon, one thing that just occurred to me, and I don't know how much of a pain it would be for you.... but any chance on these various god pages that you might be able to put a note of at least a single reference that the source might be found in? I'm thinking something like a sentence at the very end saying "I first found out about this deity in a reference found in Dragon #XXX " and maybe if you know the article name mention it, or "I first found about this deity in TSR product TSR#### <book name>". Not a big deal, and I believe you have it in the spreadsheet that I can dig and find, but it would be nice when reading the various entries if it was right there (I sometimes like to go read the original and then see how much more you improved it OR get an idea of where it was originally intended to be used, etc...)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2021 :  04:21:08  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hey AuldDragon, one thing that just occurred to me, and I don't know how much of a pain it would be for you.... but any chance on these various god pages that you might be able to put a note of at least a single reference that the source might be found in? I'm thinking something like a sentence at the very end saying "I first found out about this deity in a reference found in Dragon #XXX " and maybe if you know the article name mention it, or "I first found about this deity in TSR product TSR#### <book name>". Not a big deal, and I believe you have it in the spreadsheet that I can dig and find, but it would be nice when reading the various entries if it was right there (I sometimes like to go read the original and then see how much more you improved it OR get an idea of where it was originally intended to be used, etc...)



For the deities themselves? I usually try to mention it in the top part of the blog post, but I forgot this time. Alathrien is from Dragon #251, along with Mythrien Sarath, Sarula Iliene, and Darahl Firecloak. I'll try to make sure I get them included in the future.

I don't really want to include that information in the write-ups themselves because I'm trying to hew as closely to the original format as possible. If I ever compile them, I will include that information in a credits section.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11211 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2021 :  21:46:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hey AuldDragon, one thing that just occurred to me, and I don't know how much of a pain it would be for you.... but any chance on these various god pages that you might be able to put a note of at least a single reference that the source might be found in? I'm thinking something like a sentence at the very end saying "I first found out about this deity in a reference found in Dragon #XXX " and maybe if you know the article name mention it, or "I first found about this deity in TSR product TSR#### <book name>". Not a big deal, and I believe you have it in the spreadsheet that I can dig and find, but it would be nice when reading the various entries if it was right there (I sometimes like to go read the original and then see how much more you improved it OR get an idea of where it was originally intended to be used, etc...)



For the deities themselves? I usually try to mention it in the top part of the blog post, but I forgot this time. Alathrien is from Dragon #251, along with Mythrien Sarath, Sarula Iliene, and Darahl Firecloak. I'll try to make sure I get them included in the future.

I don't really want to include that information in the write-ups themselves because I'm trying to hew as closely to the original format as possible. If I ever compile them, I will include that information in a credits section.

Jeff



No problem. I knew I'd seen it somewhere with them, because I've enjoyed reading your stuff first and then going back to the original. Should have just scrolled up and saw that you usually put it in the forum entry.

BTW, this kind of had me look at Darahl Firecloak "Lord of the Green Flame". That one has a very interesting history... and I get that his "green flame" is supposed to maybe hint at his relationship to earth and fire, but I can't help but think I'd want to link it to the green-flame blade cantrip of 5e.

More interestingly though are his hints to Lolth and the Queen of Air & Darkness having teamed up against the Seldarine in the past using "soulless elves" using a "black shard" to stab into a dying oak tree, collect its sap, and poison said sap with the poison of thousands of black roses.... then forming the sap into an amber rose that's an artifact (the Kyrashar Rose) that allows those two deities to take over other gods of the Seldarine.

In other words, I think we just found a really good storyline for WHY and HOW the queen of air and darkness and Auril (aka the archfey Aurilandur) might have became linked for a time (since according to Ed, the QoA&D was using Auril's name up until recently).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2021 :  06:29:51  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

No problem. I knew I'd seen it somewhere with them, because I've enjoyed reading your stuff first and then going back to the original. Should have just scrolled up and saw that you usually put it in the forum entry.


I'm always happy to answer any questions about the entries. :D

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, this kind of had me look at Darahl Firecloak "Lord of the Green Flame". That one has a very interesting history... and I get that his "green flame" is supposed to maybe hint at his relationship to earth and fire, but I can't help but think I'd want to link it to the green-flame blade cantrip of 5e.


I'm looking forward to writing him up; I've always thought he's a very interesting and unusual deity. I don't know anything about post-2e cantrips though.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

More interestingly though are his hints to Lolth and the Queen of Air & Darkness having teamed up against the Seldarine in the past using "soulless elves" using a "black shard" to stab into a dying oak tree, collect its sap, and poison said sap with the poison of thousands of black roses.... then forming the sap into an amber rose that's an artifact (the Kyrashar Rose) that allows those two deities to take over other gods of the Seldarine.

In other words, I think we just found a really good storyline for WHY and HOW the queen of air and darkness and Auril (aka the archfey Aurilandur) might have became linked for a time (since according to Ed, the QoA&D was using Auril's name up until recently).



I am unlikely to connect the Queen of Air and Darkness to Auril; I've never liked the connection, and feel it is extraordinarily thin. The whole "Seelie = Summer"/"Unseelie = Winter" thing is pretty modern and tied strongly to other properties, so I'd want to minimize it.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11211 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2021 :  16:45:32  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

No problem. I knew I'd seen it somewhere with them, because I've enjoyed reading your stuff first and then going back to the original. Should have just scrolled up and saw that you usually put it in the forum entry.


I'm always happy to answer any questions about the entries. :D

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, this kind of had me look at Darahl Firecloak "Lord of the Green Flame". That one has a very interesting history... and I get that his "green flame" is supposed to maybe hint at his relationship to earth and fire, but I can't help but think I'd want to link it to the green-flame blade cantrip of 5e.


I'm looking forward to writing him up; I've always thought he's a very interesting and unusual deity. I don't know anything about post-2e cantrips though.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

More interestingly though are his hints to Lolth and the Queen of Air & Darkness having teamed up against the Seldarine in the past using "soulless elves" using a "black shard" to stab into a dying oak tree, collect its sap, and poison said sap with the poison of thousands of black roses.... then forming the sap into an amber rose that's an artifact (the Kyrashar Rose) that allows those two deities to take over other gods of the Seldarine.

In other words, I think we just found a really good storyline for WHY and HOW the queen of air and darkness and Auril (aka the archfey Aurilandur) might have became linked for a time (since according to Ed, the QoA&D was using Auril's name up until recently).



I am unlikely to connect the Queen of Air and Darkness to Auril; I've never liked the connection, and feel it is extraordinarily thin. The whole "Seelie = Summer"/"Unseelie = Winter" thing is pretty modern and tied strongly to other properties, so I'd want to minimize it.

Jeff



OHHHHH, and I just realized something more. These aren't the "new" elven deities in Dragon #236. I don't think I EVER read this article (or I glanced over it and it never stuck in my head), but these ARE new realms deities for the seldarine (Mythrien Sarath for instance is mentioned involved with the heartlands and Malar, Sarula is mentioned as a friend of Eldath, etc..). Even more of a thank you, as this is a good read.... I'm getting some ideas for a side project I've been doing involving a homemade pantheon.

On the cantrip... its nothing special. You swing your sword, hit someone for normal effect of weapon damage, and some green fire doing minor damage "leaps to another target of your choice within 5 feet". As you go up in level, this fire damage also affects the original target and increases on the secondary. Nothing that screams this guy other than "green flame", but it might be neat to hint that it was elven fighter/wizards under him that develop a spell that does the same thing (maybe surrounding their weapon with a green flame for X rounds that is known to affect secondary targets as well if you wanted to develop such in 2e rules... or just hint to a spell and not actually develop it). Maybe they also develop an infectious fire spell that spreads from one person to the next at a rate if one person per round, and only to another person in 5 ft, and it burns for a while. Anyway, not a big deal, but since he specifically is served by a lot of mages and probably fighter/wizards just figured it might be neat to make something from the reference.

On the Auril/QoA&D thing, if you DON'T like it, then you actually might want to do this then. Basically, the idea would be that during the spellplague, the QoA&D maybe took over Auril, and recently she's been freed from her control. I wonder how many magic items like the Kyrashar Rose might have been made in fact, and is this the only one? So, don't invalidate the old lore, but make it "no longer true". Maybe the black shard that was used to make the Kyrashar Rose artifact is the supposed "black diamond" that was controlling Auril... and this is what the party destroys in the recent 5e adventure Rime of Frostmaiden when they destroy the third form of "Auril"... they destroy an artifact the QoA&D was using to maintain a hold on the world. The returned Auril (formerly Aurilandur the archfey, Queen of the Frost Sprites) would be possibly shell shocked from this, much as Darahl Firecloak was, and the subversion of Auril may have taken centuries..... maybe make the returned Auril a little less downright evil and more just paranoid, reclusive, demanding, and just wanting to enjoy the cold world.... and maybe someone can begin to turn her cold heart. Anyway, just a thought. I wouldn't recommend doing anything definitive though... maybe just like a sentence that states "The black shard used to make the kyrashar rose has been rumored to be used to affect other fey beings, some of whom are not associated with the Seldarine, and the Queen of Air and Darkness has reportedly been able to use it to affect or control these fey beings."

In my personal homebrew, I might add something like "The relationship between Lolth and the Queen of Air and Darkness can be related back to when Lolth attempted to subvert Tarsellis Meunninduin and the Queen of Air and Darkness aided her by attempting to affect his ally Rellavar Danuvien by enchanting his wife, the Queen of frost sprites. This forms a bond as well between Darahl Firecloak and Tarsellis to this day, as both were cast from the Seldarine for similar reasons.".

It might be worth thinking about just WHICH elven deities might have been affected by the Kyrashar Rose, since we have similar types of stories of male elven deities having an involvement with Lolth and becoming outcast as a result (Fenmarel Mestarine, Darahl Firecloak <formerly Tilvenar>, Tarsellis Meunniduin, etc...)

Its also interesting to note how many "elven" gods have had to hide or change their name in order to return or work to get it relearned. Darahl, the Raven Queen, Kiaransalee, etc... I know some of this is outside the 2e era you're focused on, but still, I hope you don't mind me pontificating on it here. This kyrashar rose really opens up a lot of options in my mind.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2021 :  17:42:01  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Its also interesting to note how many "elven" gods have had to hide or change their name in order to return or work to get it relearned. Darahl, the Raven Queen, Kiaransalee, etc... I know some of this is outside the 2e era you're focused on, but still, I hope you don't mind me pontificating on it here. This kyrashar rose really opens up a lot of options in my mind.



Go right ahead. :)

My inclination with the Kyrashar Rose is to not portray Lolth and the Queen of Air and Darkness as actually working together, though; I just don't see them doing that. Their followers, sure; but if there is conflict between the two, that could explain why the Rose has not made more appearances and caused more damage.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11211 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2021 :  17:52:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Its also interesting to note how many "elven" gods have had to hide or change their name in order to return or work to get it relearned. Darahl, the Raven Queen, Kiaransalee, etc... I know some of this is outside the 2e era you're focused on, but still, I hope you don't mind me pontificating on it here. This kyrashar rose really opens up a lot of options in my mind.



Go right ahead. :)

My inclination with the Kyrashar Rose is to not portray Lolth and the Queen of Air and Darkness as actually working together, though; I just don't see them doing that. Their followers, sure; but if there is conflict between the two, that could explain why the Rose has not made more appearances and caused more damage.

Jeff



Maybe instead of COOPERATING.... it was a case of DUPING... as in Lolth steals the black shard, but she didn't realize that the QoA&D WANTED her to steal the shard. Lolth uses the shard to make the Kyrashar Rose, hoping to use it to pervert Seldarine, only she didn't realize that it opened an avenue for QoA&D to do the same thing. So, Lolth got used. Maybe even the SHARD was used by the QoA&D on Lolth to corrupt/control Lolth without Lolth even knowing.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2021 :  06:01:02  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Titania the Faerie Queen: https://bit.ly/3jzLU8W

The leader of the Seelie Court, and supreme fairy is Titania, the Faerie Queen. She rules her court with compassion and love, but she posses incredible magical power with which to defend her diminutive subjects. For this write-up, I incorporated an old 1st Edition druid subtype from Dragon #155, for a previous incarnation of the faerie queen named Rhiannon, as well as some medieval folklore about faeries and people said to be touched by them.

If you’ve been enjoying these entries, please consider supporting the project on Patreon or Ko-Fi (Links on the blog).

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
Go to Top of Page

Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3253 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2021 :  10:42:05  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yep, its the first of the month!

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
Go to Top of Page

AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2021 :  16:16:07  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

Yep, its the first of the month!



I am rigorous in my predictability. :D

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
942 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2021 :  23:30:05  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great work on Titania!

I was to ask about Rhianon for some time, and if you would incorporate her, seeing here you incorporated her as another name of Titania.

Another question about a future entry - I read on net Kanchelsis was born from the ritual of creation of blood by he Seldarine a "human creator god" - but some sites claim the ritual was corrupted by an Elder Evil (ghwiki), or that the human god was evil (mimir.planewalker.com) (and some other sources, but they tell the same) - none of this I found in Monster Mythology, Dragon #359, Fiendish Codex I: The Lost Annals Web Enhancement,and none mention it, repeating Kanchelsis origin from Monster Mythology (Dragon 359), or suggesting Kanchelsis wasn't born as a god, but none of the stuff I found online. Do you know any other source that could be the source of that versions of Kanchelsis origin, or do you think these are just made up by fans, or a result of mistake?

Edited by - Baltas on 10 Jul 2021 23:52:32
Go to Top of Page

AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2021 :  00:52:10  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Great work on Titania!

I was to ask about Rhianon for some time, and if you would incorporate her, seeing here you incorporated her as another name of Titania.


Yeah, I looked at the Rhiannon entry, and there really wasn't a whole lot to her that felt all that unique. I did adapt her druids as a form of specialty priest though.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Another question about a future entry - I read on net Kanchelsis was born from the ritual of creation of blood by he Seldarine a "human creator god" - but some sites claim the ritual was corrupted by an Elder Evil (ghwiki), or that the human god was evil (mimir.planewalker.com) (and some other sources, but they tell the same) - none of this I found in Monster Mythology, Dragon #359, Fiendish Codex I: The Lost Annals Web Enhancement,and none mention it, repeating Kanchelsis origin from Monster Mythology (Dragon 359), or suggesting Kanchelsis wasn't born as a god, but none of the stuff I found online. Do you know any other source that could be the source of that versions of Kanchelsis origin, or do you think these are just made up by fans, or a result of mistake?


Monster Mythology on page 109 suggests "surely some great and primal evil must have spied on their work and corrupted their rituals at a crucial instant." I'm guessing that was interpreted as an Elder Evil, which isn't unreasonable. Maybe a misinterpretation of that lead to the line on Planewalker? Not sure.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
942 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2021 :  01:26:31  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Monster Mythology on page 109 suggests "surely some great and primal evil must have spied on their work and corrupted their rituals at a crucial instant." I'm guessing that was interpreted as an Elder Evil, which isn't unreasonable. Maybe a misinterpretation of that lead to the line on Planewalker? Not sure.

Jeff



Yeah, I think that's the origin for both interpretation (Elder Evil and Evil Human God), with indeed an Elder Evil being a good candidate for what was the "great and primal evil" (Carl Sarget posibly even meant being similar to what over a decade later would designated as "Elder Evils", if maybe one of the 3 Lost Gods).

Thanks for clearing it up.
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1443 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2021 :  01:49:49  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Great work on Titania!

I was to ask about Rhianon for some time, and if you would incorporate her, seeing here you incorporated her as another name of Titania.

Another question about a future entry - I read on net Kanchelsis was born from the ritual of creation of blood by he Seldarine a "human creator god" - but some sites claim the ritual was corrupted by an Elder Evil (ghwiki), or that the human god was evil (mimir.planewalker.com) (and some other sources, but they tell the same) - none of this I found in Monster Mythology, Dragon #359, Fiendish Codex I: The Lost Annals Web Enhancement,and none mention it, repeating Kanchelsis origin from Monster Mythology (Dragon 359), or suggesting Kanchelsis wasn't born as a god, but none of the stuff I found online. Do you know any other source that could be the source of that versions of Kanchelsis origin, or do you think these are just made up by fans, or a result of mistake?




There aren't a great many Elder Evils with the capacity for such a feat. Kyuss is only a demigod, Pandorym is imprisoned, the Leviathan is asleep, and the rest are barely gnats to the Seldarine.

Another malevolent deity seems to be the most likely culprit.
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11211 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2021 :  02:21:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
a great and primal evil could also be a bloodthirsty god like Malar or with a little less literal definition of primal, Bhaal. It could also be bloodthirsty gods like Zaltec, etc....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
942 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2021 :  02:29:14  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

There aren't a great many Elder Evils with the capacity for such a feat. Kyuss is only a demigod, Pandorym is imprisoned, the Leviathan is asleep, and the rest are barely gnats to the Seldarine.

Another malevolent deity seems to be the most likely culprit.



There are two classes of Elder Evils - the general term for an Ancient 'Lovecraftian' Evil, and the Far Realm Elder Evils (from Lords of Madness), who are on the level of gods or even implied to some be above. If I remember right the entry on Kanchelsis was written before the Elder Evils sourcebok came out, so it probably meant the Far Realm Elder Evils.

From the "generic" Elder Evils, there is also Zargon, who specifically has powers that make him more lethal against gods, to point it's stated he "slain gods" who descended against him (seemingly more than normal avatars).:
quote:
The gods blessed Zankar, but their champion failed. The
gods themselves came to the earth to punish the kingdom
and put Zargon to rest. When they appeared, the elder evil
mocked them. Zargon slew some of them and drove off the
rest.


Though Zargon also seems a bit improbable to be related to Kanchelsis' creation (ie also spending vast amounts of time imprisoned since the time Asmoseud took over Baator). With Pandorym though he was imprisonned fairly "recently" on the cosmic (in his first aperance being specifcically imprisoned in -2488/-2489 DR, while Kanchelsis is more or less stated to had been "born" in extremelly ancient times - at the time when gods were creating species, so possibly before -35000 DR. Kanchelis is also stated to be the first vampire in Dragon #359 a claim more probable than that of Strahd, with his great age.

Edited by - Baltas on 11 Jul 2021 03:04:58
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11211 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2021 :  00:30:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

There aren't a great many Elder Evils with the capacity for such a feat. Kyuss is only a demigod, Pandorym is imprisoned, the Leviathan is asleep, and the rest are barely gnats to the Seldarine.

Another malevolent deity seems to be the most likely culprit.



There are two classes of Elder Evils - the general term for an Ancient 'Lovecraftian' Evil, and the Far Realm Elder Evils (from Lords of Madness), who are on the level of gods or even implied to some be above. If I remember right the entry on Kanchelsis was written before the Elder Evils sourcebok came out, so it probably meant the Far Realm Elder Evils.

From the "generic" Elder Evils, there is also Zargon, who specifically has powers that make him more lethal against gods, to point it's stated he "slain gods" who descended against him (seemingly more than normal avatars).:
quote:
The gods blessed Zankar, but their champion failed. The
gods themselves came to the earth to punish the kingdom
and put Zargon to rest. When they appeared, the elder evil
mocked them. Zargon slew some of them and drove off the
rest.


Though Zargon also seems a bit improbable to be related to Kanchelsis' creation (ie also spending vast amounts of time imprisoned since the time Asmoseud took over Baator). With Pandorym though he was imprisonned fairly "recently" on the cosmic (in his first aperance being specifcically imprisoned in -2488/-2489 DR, while Kanchelsis is more or less stated to had been "born" in extremelly ancient times - at the time when gods were creating species, so possibly before -35000 DR. Kanchelis is also stated to be the first vampire in Dragon #359 a claim more probable than that of Strahd, with his great age.



The entry for Kanchelsis though didn't say elder evil, it said "some great and primal evil".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
942 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2021 :  04:02:20  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

The entry for Kanchelsis though didn't say elder evil, it said "some great and primal evil".



Yeah, I agree, though I was just discussing what the Elder Evil suggested by ghwiki would be, and earlier me agreeing an Elder Evil would fit.

The "great and primal evil" is I think left open ended, to fit Kanchelsis into the campaign setting easier. On Toril it could be indeed Malar or Zaltec, (both having traits shared with vampires and Kanchelsis, that could make it fit)(though Shar, would also fit). On Oerth, it could be Nerull, Erythnul, Meyanok, or Tharizdun.

Demogorgon could also fit, due to his connection to vampirism ("energy draining"), specifically mentioned in Monster Mythology, not to mention being extremelly old.

Edited by - Baltas on 13 Jul 2021 13:17:20
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1443 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2021 :  15:53:28  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Zargon's problem is that his being a Baatorian is a retcon invented for Elder Evils - Dragon 315 has Zargon as a native outsider, and the original module has him as a Chaotic monster. We do know what the ancient Baatorians looked like, we know that they'd already transcended their physical shapes by the time of Asmodeus's descent, and we have a rough estimate as to what an adult Baatorian could do. They were creatures of "anti-light" with some sort of energy draining ability that could only be fazed by a wish.

Zargon is a huge con by Asmodeus to beef up his mystique, because there's no way a solar couldn't simply make mincemeat out of Zargon and call it a day.

Ironically, remnants of the ancient Baatorians still exist in the Hells - the dogai.

Elder Evils is a silly book. The whole "sphere of annihilation + well of many worlds = World goes poof" is just one of those silly ideas in that tome.

Edited by - LordofBones on 13 Jul 2021 15:59:12
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
942 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2021 :  17:01:24  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Zargon's problem is that his being a Baatorian is a retcon invented for Elder Evils - Dragon 315 has Zargon as a native outsider, and the original module has him as a Chaotic monster. We do know what the ancient Baatorians looked like, we know that they'd already transcended their physical shapes by the time of Asmodeus's descent, and we have a rough estimate as to what an adult Baatorian could do. They were creatures of "anti-light" with some sort of energy draining ability that could only be fazed by a wish.

Zargon is a huge con by Asmodeus to beef up his mystique, because there's no way a solar couldn't simply make mincemeat out of Zargon and call it a day.

Ironically, remnants of the ancient Baatorians still exist in the Hells - the dogai.



I meant, in Basic (and original) D&D rules, especially earlier on, Chaotic very often meant a characrer or creature was evil. Hence Tiamat was Chaotic in her description in the Original D&D. In Dragon 315, Zargon already is described as Lawful Evil. Aside from the fact Zargon's nature being never fully explained in pre-Elder Evils, on Mystara/the Basic D&D Multiverse and it's versions, Gods of the same name or identified as such, can have different origins, than their main/Advanced Dungeons and Dragons counterparts (ie divergent origins of Immortals from the Gods of the same name). So it could work also the other way around.

Zargon pshares some similarities with earlier published descriptions of Ancient Baatorians (specifically) in Elder Evils book) - ie aside from obvious tentacles. The sleeping Ancient Baatorians invicibility sans the Wish spells, can be compared to Zargon's high end regeneration, and damage reduction. The difference, being in design philosophy between 2E and 3E - in 2E, there were just being the player characters couldn't defeat or even confront in a direct fight. In 3E, the players can fight pretty much everything. Regeneration was also a property of mature nupperibos. The Energy and Light drain/eating also has a parallel with an ability Zargon has - "Divine Enervation" ("All divine spellcasters lose the ability to regain spells so long as they remain within 100 miles of Zargon.") and and Slime turning (into whelps of Zargon) turning, ability score (constritution - like mature nupperibos -, intelligence and charisma) draining ability/infection.

Zargon being "underpowered", is an issue with Elder Evils with multiple monsters (this was an issue with 3.5e, and to a kinda lesser degree 3E publications).

Zargon's relative weakness though, could be explained by him not recovering his strenght proper, something brought up in the Elder Evils book that it took a bit of time for him to first regain his strenght, after Asmodeus trown his horn across planes, and how dug into the depts of the planet on impact.

With the 2007 Elder Evils, we also both forgot about Atropus, who could fit into Kanchelsis' backstory, as the "great and primal evil".

[EDIT]

Though in context, we are kinda visibly getting of topic here...

Edited by - Baltas on 13 Jul 2021 21:22:16
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1443 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2021 :  07:52:43  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be fair, Tyrants of the Nine Hells does note that Baator was empty when Asmodeus was cast down, which fits the theory that the ancient baatorians transcended their physical forms. The dogai baatezu somewhat confirm this theory with regard to their creation myth.

It's not something unique to the baatorians either. The tanar'ri lord Lynkhab is in the exact same boat, only where the baatorians succeeded in transcending their material bodies, Lynkhab's own desires keep her from fully transcending to become Desire itself.

I could buy Zargon as a mature Baatorian, but their king, especially in light of his actual history? Nah.

With regard to Kanchy, a clue could be his divided forms. Kanchelsis manifests as both the Rake (the default tux-and-cape nobleman) and the Beast (an unkempt savage humanoid), and his avatars tend to be half-elven with half-elven "companions". The evil power who created him was probably a savage humanoid god rather than an undead planetoid. The closest equivalent to what Kanchelsis's blasphemous existence is something like an inverted cross floating in urine. If we go by the idea that the Rake is elven excess and perfection taken to extremes, then the Beast is basically the human equivalent.

Though I suppose that Urdlen could also be a culprit.
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
942 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2021 :  10:58:50  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well canon is a bit unclear with the transcended status of Ancient Baatorians, with the possibility maybe being Zargon is "just" a mature Baatorian - but I would continue this on PM to not derail the discussion more.

With Kanchelsis, it is indeed possible his creation, is a result of a corruption by a non-undeath/negative energy connected being, but for example one connected to savagery and/or darker side of nature (hence I agreed on it being possibly Malar - who is a very ancient power, or suggested Erythnul) or like Urlden.

The Beast aspect of Kanchelsis, seems to be both inspired by the classic movie Wolfman, and other such depictions of Werewolves, especially seeing his ability to specifically turn into a wolf or warg (with the Rake turning into a giant bat). Indeed, some Slavic folklore does describe vampires as having some overlap with werewolves, including them being excesivelly hairy and beastly. An example of fiction using this, is the /BeastWolfman form of Dracula from 1992's Dracula (a form which did indeed embody Dracula's savage and primal drives):
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/09/be/79/09be79f6491f3393a7c18f03ccf97bba.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3a/a1/f4/3aa1f43790146218d174d6911ca0cd2d.jpg

Kanchelsis's duality does even parallel to a degree the relationship between the sibling lycanthropic gods - Daragor and Eshebala.

I do think Atropus could still fit - Kanchelsis is connected to the corrupted act of creation, being a corrupt creator god, or even pre-godly creative being, whose own birth was incomplete and corrupted.

The duality of Kanchelsis could be though be though seen as connected to his human and elven origins, as well a twisted version of the elven connection to nature - ie as evident even more evidently with Lythari and Krynnish Sea Elves (being able to turn into dolphins or sea otters).

In context, and mentioning Lynkhab, and the one who corrupted the ritual and co-created Kanchelsis, could even be one of the 4 Primal Succubi/Qeen's of Succubi (Lynkhab, Shami-Amourae, Malcanthet or Xinivrae). Primal meaning bein among the oldest Tanar'ri, and great being their evil, and relative power (especially compared to mortals) and share corruption they repesent and spread.
(Yes they are quite weaker than the Seldarine, but in context, a being much weaker than some gods, can disrupt their actions, especially with right preparation. With one the the Primal Succubi, maybe seducing the human creator god involved and or a member of Seldarine, which enabled her to taint the act of creation).

I mostly suggest it, due to the (daywalking) "Greater Vampires" described in the 1e/1988 Lords of Darkness sourcebook (normal vampires being called "Lesser Vampires" there). As Greater Vampires are spawned from a victim by a succubus' draining kiss, rather than another vampire spawning them.

Again, there are many posibilities, which I think Carl Sargent most probably intended (ie not meaning necersarily any of the options we mentions, just a large window of possibility who or what the "great and primal evil" was).

Edited by - Baltas on 15 Jul 2021 13:52:18
Go to Top of Page

AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2021 :  06:24:49  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
T’zen’kil the Lasher: https://bit.ly/3fAXYEn

The second-to-last deity in the neogi pantheon is the cruel T’zen’kil, god of pain, torture, and slavery. It is a foul being that enforces the social order and the idea that neogi superiority means that lesser beings deserve suffering. These elements have also made it the informal deity of neogi cooks and chefs.

If you’ve been enjoying these entries, please consider supporting the project on Patreon or Ko-Fi (Links on the blog).

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
Go to Top of Page

ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2004 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2021 :  12:08:58  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
George and I put some detail in about those obscure elven deities in Havens of Miyeritar.

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/348991/Havens-of-Miyeritar

Maybe that will provide some inspiration?

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
Go to Top of Page

AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 02 Aug 2021 :  02:42:15  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

George and I put some detail in about those obscure elven deities in Havens of Miyeritar.

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/348991/Havens-of-Miyeritar

Maybe that will provide some inspiration?

--Eric



Thanks, I'll definitely look at that, and it's on sale right now. :D

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
Go to Top of Page

AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
503 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2021 :  05:59:13  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rellavar Danuvien, the Frost Sprite King: https://bit.ly/3yxZo92

One of the deities straddling the boundary between the Seldarine and the Seelie Court, Rellavar Danuvien is the king of the frost sprites and a member of the outer circle of the Seelie Court, as well as being a rising power of the reclusive snow elves. He is a protector deity who looks out for elves and faeriefolk who are endangered by harsh weather and natural disasters.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 18 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2022 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000