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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe

789 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  06:09:53  Show Profile Send silverwolfer a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Do you agree with or are you against the decision, of allowing the creation of the many arrows kingdom, and why are you for or against it?

Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  10:45:34  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Was it a mistake? No.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1834 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  10:55:37  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was all for it. I like the idea of orcs/goblinoids etc. having a kingdom of their own. I also think the kingdom should survive the 5e era as they still need to time to set aside their warlike ways. The Companions sees the dwarves as thinking it was a mistake to sign the treaty with them but the events of the last century were very trying. I'm not saying to take any crap from them, just give them more time to establish themselves.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  11:53:48  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it's a great idea and I'd like to see more 'monster kingdoms' spring up in the (5E) Realms.

Hobgoblins are way overdue for their own lands. Goblins too.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  12:54:55  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, the idea of some sort group of classical "evil" people/creatures finally evolving into a stable, semi-civilized kingdom is a wonderful one, because it directly confronts the racism that is at the heart of the idea of classical evil people/creatures in the first place. I'm glad the subject was tackled.

But I do think that the idea of leaving King Obould I alive to rule that kingdom was a mistake. He should've been killed, for what he did before that kingdom became semi-civilized. The notion of other kingdoms wanting the orcs to become civilized so much that they (especially the dwarves!) would forego justice just does not sit well with me. Justice is a valuable component of civilization! It should not have been sacrificed in order to conduct a social experiment.

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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe

Singapore
405 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  12:57:52  Show Profile Send Derulbaskul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes and no.

I rather like the concept but certain elements of the execution leave me cold. Please bear in mind I stopped reading Drizzt after Crystal Shard so my opinion on this is largely shaped by the recent R A Salvatore-authored DDi article on Many-Arrows.

The reason for Gruumsh's imprimatur for this kingdom was never really explained. It just seems highly unlikely that Gruumsh would look favourably on this enterprise as it seems to be in complete opposition to Gruumsh's nature and seems more like something that would be done at Bane's behest and to bring the orcs under the dominion of the Black Lord. It's more LAWFUL evil than the CHAOTIC evil of the orcs.

Cheers
D

NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here.
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
504 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  13:50:32  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that the Many-Arrows kingdom was a good idea. I really don't like when the bad guys are evil "just because" and orcs (and other "evil" races) are nothing but fodder for would-be heroes. It's about time that the orcs had a civilized (or getting there) nation.

I really don't like how things are shaping up though, it really looks like that the Many-Arrows kingdom has its days counted.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1834 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  14:21:53  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree Tanthalas. The Companions novel seems to indicate that Many-Arrows will be getting the axe...though I hope they are just 'put in their place' rather than destroyed as a kingdom. To some degree we have to understand that this orcs being evil 'just because' is a standard fantasy trope. Tolkein's orcs were evil because they were corrupted by The Enemy and this idea has continued to exist in one form or the other. I still think orcs and goblinoids should primarily be evil...but there's no reason for their civilization not to flourish. I've largely begun to treat Many-Arrows as a sort of Klingon government. They are brutishly powerful...but not stupid and not completely uncivilized. In the words of General Marktok: We do not embrace other cultures, we conquer them! Why can't the orcs have a similar disposition while maintaining a kingdom of their own?

Derulbaskul is correct too though, if we go with the standard CE approach to orcs then a kingdom that sees a cultural rise is somewhat hard to see. LE makes more sense. However, that doesn't mean that the ruling orcs have to be predominantly CE. Also, even though Gruumsh is supposed to be CE does not mean he wouldn't support a kingdom of orcs. So long as the strong rule the weak I see no problem from the religious end of things. Gruumsh would likely want the kingdom to exert force against its neighbors, but even he (as a god) has to know that there are limitations to overcome.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
36136 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  14:25:59  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I strongly dislike Many Arrows, because I think it's incredibly unlikely for any people with a history of thousands of generations of warfare and bloodshed, as well as divine guidance mandating such behavior, to set that aside at the drop of a hat, immediately after launching yet another unprovoked war.

I'm not adverse to orcs becoming civilized, I just think it's going to take hundreds of years and an absence of enemies for it to happen -- going from warrior to farmer/crafter within a generation, when there are plenty of potential enemies, is about as likely as Malar's follower's suddenly becoming vegans.

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Tanthalas
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Portugal
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Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  14:29:17  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think that Gruumsh being CE is a valid justification for Orcs not having a nation. That kind of thinking is why most of the time people treat Chaotic Evil as if it really meant Chaotic Stupid.

Lolth is a CE deity too, and the Drow manage to have quite organized cities.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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36136 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  15:18:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

I don't think that Gruumsh being CE is a valid justification for Orcs not having a nation. That kind of thinking is why most of the time people treat Chaotic Evil as if it really meant Chaotic Stupid.

Lolth is a CE deity too, and the Drow manage to have quite organized cities.



It's not his alignment, it's his ethos of strength, warfare, and conquering that I think is incompatible with settling down as farmers and getting along with their neighbors. To maintain Many Arrows as a self-supporting nation, orcs had to not do the thing that their primary deity tells them to do and has told them to do since time began.

Since you mentioned Lolth, this is like the drow suddenly -- in a handful of years -- becoming a highly regimented society, with strict adherence to a well-defined system of strong laws, and staying that way, and Lolth not having an issue with that.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Jan 2014 15:22:25
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  15:38:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was all for it, but I think they completely dropped the ball with it in 4e.

It was like... "Orc Kingdom... over there... nothings changed...". Very boring, VERY uncreative.

I expected an orc player race in 4e, and all we got is "the world was completely changed, but otherwise, nothing has changed". It was just weird. I hope 5e gives us playable Orcs, rather then half-orcs, which I never cared for (too Tolkienesque, IMHO).

So yeah, if Many Arrows is still around in 5e (which it should be), then I hope they do something with it. If they are not going to bother with it, then they should just trash the whole idea. They need to stop turning all of RAS's 'babies' into sacred cows. I love that he tried to humanize them (a WoW influence?), but 4e went in a completely different direction with non-playable races, turning them all into 'monsters' (remember that video with the gnome?) If 5e does anything, it should pick a direction and run in it. 4e was just all over the place in that regard. I think the whole 'kill on sight' is a very old-fashioned fantasy concept, which grew out of subconscious racism ("it doesn't look like us! Kill it!") The Forgotten Realms is a very progressive setting, often turning many stereotypes on their heads. Greyhawk was the very B&W setting, where everything was either player-friendly or a monster. I understand that the 4e team was trying to recapture that 1975 experience... but is that what we truly want at this point? I think kids today are far more metropolitan then we were - they are more excepting of interracial relations.

Distrust Orcs and Drow? Of course! Kill them just for the way they look? That just rubs me the wrong way. I realize FR is just a fantasy world, but today's fantasy fans are a liberal lot in general, and perhaps its high time we chucked-out a lot of those outdated concepts. Early fiction writers were a product of the cultures they grew up in - we should be more socially sensitive then they.

And in that regard, I think Bob Salvatore made some excellent in-roads, and the rest of the WotC team should just learn to embrace that, and stop trying to 'recapture our youth'. It ain't gonna happen. Orcs you can talk to are here to stay - get over it.

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Scars Unseen
Acolyte

Japan
14 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  15:39:19  Show Profile Send Scars Unseen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
But I do think that the idea of leaving King Obould I alive to rule that kingdom was a mistake. He should've been killed, for what he did before that kingdom became semi-civilized. The notion of other kingdoms wanting the orcs to become civilized so much that they (especially the dwarves!) would forego justice just does not sit well with me. Justice is a valuable component of civilization! It should not have been sacrificed in order to conduct a social experiment.



History shows that justice is takes a backseat to... pretty much everything else... when it comes to dealing with other nations. Plenty of pretty awful people have been placed in positions of power because they were effective for the purpose more powerful nations needed at the time.

As far as the main topic goes, I think that the existence of an orc nation is a good thing, as it provides more narrative opportunities, not less. It's not like every orc on Faerun is automatically going to flock to Many Arrows simply because it exists. There is still plenty of room for classic "ambushed by a band of orcs" scenarios. Now there are just other, more complex possibilities as well.

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Demzer
Senior Scribe

845 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  16:02:43  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Expanding possibilities is never a mistake on paper, but then how things are done weights a lot on their usefullness.

I plan to make good use of an orc kingdom in the north in the late 1370s in my home Realms, but if officially they aren't used smartly and just stand there waiting for dwarven axes and hammers to smite them again then having them there in the first place wasn't a good idea.

Did Murannheim ever evolve past "here be monsters" in 4e? That is another possible monster nation example left to rot instead of being turned into something interesting.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1834 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  16:20:37  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I get what you're saying Wooley, it SHOULD take time for them to become farmers...but then they don't actually have too. They can use other races as slave labor. So long as their leaders are smart enough not to use (demi)humans in this regard AND their nation remains strong enough to repel all but very concerted efforts to eradicate them then they should be fine. The orcs can be soldiers and leaders while using goblins and other races as farmers (hey, they use a harsh pecking order after all) and yet they can still conscript these races into their armies as needed. It's not that much different from medieval times in the RW.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1587 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  16:37:11  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Many arrows is not the first Orc Kingdom in FR.

And the Grey Orcs came from a major civilization (on another world) with powerful magic and the like anx worshipped the Orcish Pantheon, including Gruumsh. While the Grey Orcs lost all that after the Orcgate wars, it does show that Gruumsh isn't opposed to some civilization amoung orcs. So do the Srco who where in the Evermeet novels.

So no it wasn't a mistake, the mistake was not finishing the job.

And Many Arrows will still survive, it will just be in a more anatanistic capacity, like Thay and Netheril.
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1442 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  16:56:23  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Many Arrows is just too good not to use in a dwarf vs orc war. ;)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36136 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  17:10:19  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

I get what you're saying Wooley, it SHOULD take time for them to become farmers...but then they don't actually have too. They can use other races as slave labor. So long as their leaders are smart enough not to use (demi)humans in this regard AND their nation remains strong enough to repel all but very concerted efforts to eradicate them then they should be fine. The orcs can be soldiers and leaders while using goblins and other races as farmers (hey, they use a harsh pecking order after all) and yet they can still conscript these races into their armies as needed. It's not that much different from medieval times in the RW.



But that's not what happened in canon, and it also doesn't explain the abrupt switch from "kill everyone in sight!" to "hey, let's all be neighbors and get along and not fight!"

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  17:23:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Many arrows is not the first Orc Kingdom in FR.

And the Grey Orcs came from a major civilization (on another world) with powerful magic and the like anx worshipped the Orcish Pantheon, including Gruumsh. While the Grey Orcs lost all that after the Orcgate wars, it does show that Gruumsh isn't opposed to some civilization amoung orcs.


We don't know anything about those prior civilizations -- like whether or not the orcs did a 180 degree turn, culturally, while surrounded by potential enemies. That's the part I have an objection to. On Monday, they're murderous warriors. On Tuesday, they're somewhat peaceful farmers.

That abrupt a change does not compute.


quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

So do the Srco who where in the Evermeet novels.


I'm a huge fan of the scro, and think they are one of the coolest things from Spelljammer. That said, they are not relevant to this discussion. The scro do not worship Gruumsh, they do not try to live in peace with their neighbors, and their society was forged in isolation.

So they do have nothing in common with Many Arrows, and their society proves my point -- it took time and isolation, neither of which happened with Many Arrows.

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

So no it wasn't a mistake, the mistake was not finishing the job.


The mistake was in the execution, not in the concept.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  17:43:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The mistake was in the execution, not in the concept.

Agreed.

A lot of what happened there can be explained-away, but never was. We can try to explain-away some of the inconsistencies ourselves, but why must we always have to?

For instance, there is canon that Orcs farm (the Ondonti are a prime example), but no-one bothered to connect any other lore with the changes the Obould Orcs made so quickly (they could have been attracting more peaceful orcs from other regions - the High Forest, for example). One line in the GHotR could have fixed all that - 1372 DR: Orcs from all over Faerûn flock to Obould's banner, bringing many new skills and knowledge with them. It could have been THAT simple.

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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Jan 2014 17:47:55
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
504 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  20:27:58  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

I get what you're saying Wooley, it SHOULD take time for them to become farmers...but then they don't actually have too. They can use other races as slave labor. So long as their leaders are smart enough not to use (demi)humans in this regard AND their nation remains strong enough to repel all but very concerted efforts to eradicate them then they should be fine. The orcs can be soldiers and leaders while using goblins and other races as farmers (hey, they use a harsh pecking order after all) and yet they can still conscript these races into their armies as needed. It's not that much different from medieval times in the RW.



But that's not what happened in canon, and it also doesn't explain the abrupt switch from "kill everyone in sight!" to "hey, let's all be neighbors and get along and not fight!"



Considering the problems that the other neighboring nations have had with the Many-Arrows kingdom in the past century, then it actually hasn't been an abrupt switch.

Regardless, we've had this conversation before in another scroll, and imo, you're far too strict with what following Gruumsh should mean.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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Asharak
Learned Scribe

France
233 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2014 :  21:00:19  Show Profile  Visit Asharak's Homepage Send Asharak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The North already known a noted orcish realm : Uruth Ukrypt 927 to 1026 DR ...

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 02 Jan 2014 :  00:02:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

I get what you're saying Wooley, it SHOULD take time for them to become farmers...but then they don't actually have too. They can use other races as slave labor. So long as their leaders are smart enough not to use (demi)humans in this regard AND their nation remains strong enough to repel all but very concerted efforts to eradicate them then they should be fine. The orcs can be soldiers and leaders while using goblins and other races as farmers (hey, they use a harsh pecking order after all) and yet they can still conscript these races into their armies as needed. It's not that much different from medieval times in the RW.



But that's not what happened in canon, and it also doesn't explain the abrupt switch from "kill everyone in sight!" to "hey, let's all be neighbors and get along and not fight!"



Considering the problems that the other neighboring nations have had with the Many-Arrows kingdom in the past century, then it actually hasn't been an abrupt switch.

Regardless, we've had this conversation before in another scroll, and imo, you're far too strict with what following Gruumsh should mean.



It's not abrupt for an army to law down swords and pick up plows, immediately after conquering land? If that's not abrupt, what is?

Even factoring Gruumsh out, you've still got the abrupt reversal of their culture, and no explanation for it.

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sfdragon
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2285 Posts

Posted - 02 Jan 2014 :  00:23:31  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
culture sensitivity is almost another way of saying liar....... tell a lie and keep the peace.
but this is irrelevant to this discussion and we'll not go there ever.

was the manyarrows kingdom a mistake., well yes and no. its implementation wasn't really, its execution into 4e might have been. but here is the deal the many arrows orcs are not stupid, they might not be all taht bright as we all know all civilizations have a few bad eggs.

but lets face it at their core the orcs are brutal savages and a some point they will turn on themselves and the kingdom will fall, or the entire kingdom will wage war on their neighbors and in retaliation , the neighbors will cut them down to the last( case in point see that cities of the 7 or 9 swords) and 100 years is not enough time for a race know for brutal savagery to be farmers as already has been said.( though it may be plenty of time to make a few merchants)

as for them in 5e..... well that ultimately depends.... on how much the designers want the original feel of the realms, time will tell.

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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BEAST
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USA
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Posted - 02 Jan 2014 :  00:56:55  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Scars Unseen

[quote]Originally posted by BEAST
History shows that justice is takes a backseat to... pretty much everything else... when it comes to dealing with other nations. Plenty of pretty awful people have been placed in positions of power because they were effective for the purpose more powerful nations needed at the time.

And I think that history shows us a lot of mistakes, too. Letting justice slide just breeds resentment in the populace, who thinks their leaders are more interested in making nice with foreign leaders than with sticking up for their own people.

I don't really know how stable the Kingdom of Many-Arrows has been during the last century. My research for another thread showed that the kingdom initially settled on borders that ran from the Spine of the World, to the River Surbrin, to the Evermoors, to Keeper's Dale and the Fell Pass (3E). But by 4E, the kingdom basically only existed in the Spine of the World. Apparently the orcs had lost all of their land gains from the First Orc War!

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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe

Singapore
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Posted - 02 Jan 2014 :  05:58:27  Show Profile Send Derulbaskul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

I don't think that Gruumsh being CE is a valid justification for Orcs not having a nation. That kind of thinking is why most of the time people treat Chaotic Evil as if it really meant Chaotic Stupid.

Lolth is a CE deity too, and the Drow manage to have quite organized cities.



No, you're really missing the point. It's not about being Chaotic Evil, per se; it's about Gruumsh being a deity for whom his Alignment of Chaotic Evil is expressed in raw destructive power (don't forget that this is 4E also: Gruumsh has assumed/always was Talos so that rather emphasises how destructive he is). Lolth and Cyric are different. They're both still CE but that is expressed differently.

quote:
But that's not what happened in canon, and it also doesn't explain the abrupt switch from "kill everyone in sight!" to "hey, let's all be neighbors and get along and not fight!"


Exactly.

Gruumsh has not changed his essential nature so why would he give his blessing to an enterprise that is radically different to his essential nature?

As for Uruth Ukrypt and the grey orcs, I think the point is being missed again with those two examples: they were still very belligerent nations of orcs not "let's all grow potatoes and prosper together" like Many-Arrows.

A clever writer might be able to come up with a decent explanation but that has not been done yet.

Cheers
D

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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 02 Jan 2014 :  09:07:14  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

No, the idea of some sort group of classical "evil" people/creatures finally evolving into a stable, semi-civilized kingdom is a wonderful one, because it directly confronts the racism that is at the heart of the idea of classical evil people/creatures in the first place. I'm glad the subject was tackled.

But I do think that the idea of leaving King Obould I alive to rule that kingdom was a mistake. He should've been killed, for what he did before that kingdom became semi-civilized. The notion of other kingdoms wanting the orcs to become civilized so much that they (especially the dwarves!) would forego justice just does not sit well with me. Justice is a valuable component of civilization! It should not have been sacrificed in order to conduct a social experiment.



Justice is an idea. It works well in a world of ideas, but not so much in a world where those ideas have consequences.

Obould was the driving force behind the establishment of a stable orc state. Removing him in the interest of justice would have set the whole house of cards tumbling down and would have resulted in a prolonged conflict. It's a choice between thousands of deaths on both sides in pursuit of an abstract idea, or an immediate cease fire.

It also opens both sides up to an uneasy precedent; executing Obould for killing people would make Bruenor or Drizzt liable for execution for killing hundreds of orcs. Failure to enforce that sets the precedent that an orc's life is less valuable than that of a human, elf, or dwarf. Many-Arrows would have essentially been a servitor state, and its orcs would be second class citizens.

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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 02 Jan 2014 :  12:40:20  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Many Arrows was a very interesting idea. A dynamic Orc king forces his people to civilize themselves against all the odds, it makes for a very good story.
The existence of Many arrows is one of the major reasons that the Silver Marches has remained stable and comparatively prosperous and I am averse to the idea of removing it. It just needs to be developed properly.
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
504 Posts

Posted - 02 Jan 2014 :  12:51:37  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul

quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

I don't think that Gruumsh being CE is a valid justification for Orcs not having a nation. That kind of thinking is why most of the time people treat Chaotic Evil as if it really meant Chaotic Stupid.

Lolth is a CE deity too, and the Drow manage to have quite organized cities.



No, you're really missing the point. It's not about being Chaotic Evil, per se; it's about Gruumsh being a deity for whom his Alignment of Chaotic Evil is expressed in raw destructive power (don't forget that this is 4E also: Gruumsh has assumed/always was Talos so that rather emphasises how destructive he is). Lolth and Cyric are different. They're both still CE but that is expressed differently.



You're acting like Talos followers can't live in society either.

You guys are being way to strict with what being a follower of a deity means. Just because a deity has a certain dogma, that doesn't mean that their followers absolutely adhere to it 24 hous per day, not even their clerics are like that. And I'm sure that the overwhelming majority of Orcs aren't clerics.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 02 Jan 2014 :  15:11:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Strange, too, considering how 'liberal' we've become with what RW priests get away with.

ANYHOW... the more times I look at this thread, the more I am getting annoyed at the name itself. 'Many Arrows' may have been fine at the beginning, but it really does sound way too aggressive for a new nation trying to establish reasonable relations with its neighbors.

Might I suggest they re-name the country itself 'Obould', in honor of its founder, and get rid of the never-ending line of Obould kings? Or perhaps some derivation of Obould - like Obouldarr or some such? Then maybe call the rulers 'The Obould' (instead of king).

Just a thought.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1834 Posts

Posted - 02 Jan 2014 :  15:23:29  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting idea Markus although yelling "All hail the mighty Obouldarr, Obould of Obould!" just doesn't sit well with me.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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