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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2014 :  14:24:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, he is actually sending them from a monastery in 1207 AD, so the connection is unstable.

His home-built 'Steampunk 9000' computer doesn't really run windows - its more of a 'probability engine' with no actual code, just lots and lots of gears and lights (many of which do nothing but look cool). So, of course, there are quite a bit of compatibility issues as well.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Dec 2014 14:30:23
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36123 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2014 :  16:23:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, he is actually sending them from a monastery in 1207 AD, so the connection is unstable.

His home-built 'Steampunk 9000' computer doesn't really run windows - its more of a 'probability engine' with no actual code, just lots and lots of gears and lights (many of which do nothing but look cool). So, of course, there are quite a bit of compatibility issues as well.



Are you saying the Sage is a tinker gnome? This would explain a lot...

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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2014 :  19:00:26  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Krash, you've written of Oghranni (?) dwarves in this very thread. I wonder if you have any knowledge about Oghrann's most prominent clans? 'Dwarves Deep' lists the major shield dwarf clans, but it seems most of them wandered towards Worldspine mountains, Waterdeep and Mirabar after the kingdom's fall. Which clans might have traveled eastward, other than Iron House of Tethyamar? And did Tethyamar's inhabitants include other clans beside the Iron House, e.g. Brightblade dwarves from Daggerdale?

To expand on that, is it common that, for example, Clan Dunderhead's hold might also have a few Watchever, Darkfell or Worldthrone dwarves? (i.e. families or individuals from "major" clans)

O the Beardless One, I beseech thee, help me out with this one and I'll be forever in your de... uh, grateful!

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 11 Dec 2014 :  10:17:16  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've also much enjoyed your lore on Tethyamar. What would be your educated guess of when Thunderholme was founded? I'm thinking of following years (in DR): -26, 127, 149, 227 and 250. Year of the Dwarf would fit nicely, but then again, Hlundadim's army assaults Cormyr around 200 DR, and I find that would have been a great opportunity for Tethyamar and/or Oghrann clans to expand into Thunder Peaks. Ergo, Year of Raised Banner (227) or Year of the Storm Crown (250) would work nicely. Or was Thunderholme, in your humble opinion, an independent kingdom and not an outpost of Tethyamar/Iron House?

Also, do you think there were refugees/clans from fallen Delzoun in Tethyamar and Thunderholme?

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6012 Posts

Posted - 11 Dec 2014 :  10:36:02  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ooh thats a good question.

It could have been founded following Tethyamar's first fall around -88 DR.

It could have been founded by dwarves from Myth Drannor (i think they were from the vast).

It could have been founded by the same kin of fallen Oghrann living in the Storm Horns that helped found Tethyamar.


I'm thinking since Tethyamar's founding mentions only sending word to the kin of fallen Oghrann in the Stormhorns (with no mention of the Thunderpeaks) that either Thunderholme was not there at this time or the two groups of dwarves were unrelated and therefore less inclined to help one another.

Maybe that gives some credence to the dwarves of Thunderholme being of the stock of Sarphil which would be different to the dwarves of Oghrann by a few thousand years.

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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 11 Dec 2014 :  23:23:04  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Ooh thats a good question.

It could have been founded following Tethyamar's first fall around -88 DR.

It could have been founded by dwarves from Myth Drannor (i think they were from the vast).

It could have been founded by the same kin of fallen Oghrann living in the Storm Horns that helped found Tethyamar.


I'm thinking since Tethyamar's founding mentions only sending word to the kin of fallen Oghrann in the Stormhorns (with no mention of the Thunderpeaks) that either Thunderholme was not there at this time or the two groups of dwarves were unrelated and therefore less inclined to help one another.

Maybe that gives some credence to the dwarves of Thunderholme being of the stock of Sarphil which would be different to the dwarves of Oghrann by a few thousand years.



Interesting ideas, Dazzlerdal; I've thought of Sarphil, too, but it may be a bit too old? I feel that Thunderholme would be mentioned more often in dwarf and Cormyr related canon if it had been founded thousands of years ago. And Tethyamar might have tried to establish a firm relationship with such an old kingdom...

On the other hand, Thunderholme was famous for its superb craftsmen and miners, which something I can't recall being mentioned in Realmslore about Oghrann or Tethyamar. That might indicate the dwarves of Thunderholme weren't from either of these kingdoms.

I've also thought of the Realm of Glimmering Swords, which fell in 649 DR, but it rose and fell when Thunderholme already existed. Besides, the refugees of Roldirar retreated to Myth Drannor, and later on went to reopen the mines of Sarphil.

My own best guess is that Thunderholme was founded around 200-300 DR, if not even a century later, by a few clans of Oghrann, and perhaps some refugees from Delzoun. Perhaps they were clans that were following the path laid down by their cousins in Tethyamar? Or maybe Thunderholme was founded as a vassal kingdom of Tethyamar? In any case, it may be that some clans fled from Myth Drannor and Ammarindar to Thunderholme, but they probably weren't many in number.

I'm leaning towards Clan Darkfell as one of the "major" clans, but maybe there wasn't a ruling clan per se, since Emerlin III (like Harbromm or Ghellin) didn't have a clan name? The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Thunderholme was a place where many refugees from fallen dwarven realms fled to...

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm

Edited by - Asgetrion on 12 Dec 2014 06:50:37
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1442 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2014 :  00:25:22  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe this will help some.

684 DR (The Year of the Sundered Crypt) - Dwarves of the clan Tarynstone are found digging deep tunnels under the city (Myth Drannor) despite the long-held prohibitions against such actions. Furthermore, some elf Houses are outraged that the dwarves' tunneling in restricted areas collapsed some nigh-forgotten deep crypts of the elder or long-gone Houses. Clan Tarynstone and its 350 dwarves, despite a cry within the Ruling Council for death sentences and an equally loud cry for acquittal, are exiled from Myth Drannor and Cormanthyr. The clan emigrates west into the Thunder Peaks. (Source: Fall of Myth Drannor)

989 DR (The Year of Dark Stalking) - Dwarven miners from a remote outpost of Thunderholme inadvertently broke into Aurgloroasa's lair and roused the very old shadow dragon from a decades-long sleep.

1001 DR - (The Year of the Awakening) Aurgloroasa began to whisper dark thoughts in the dreams of High Old One Dagan, son of Belgin, blood of Jangarak. Over the next 33 years, the ambitions of Thunderholme's high priest of Dumathoin grew as did his madness and his obsession with death.

1034 DR (The Year of Bane's Brood) - When the aging monarch (King Emerlin III) died in his sleep shortly after the disappearance of his only child, the crown prince, on a trade mission to Selgaunt, Dagan was quickly named Regent of Thunderholme. (Both the king and the prince were victims of Aurgloroasa's shadowy agents.) Within months, construction was begun on a grand temple to Dumathoin in the heart of Thunderholme.

1054 DR (The Year of the Tolling Terrors) - In a grand ceremony of dedication attended by all the dwarves of Thunderholme, the dwarven regent-priest dedicated the temple complex to Null, not Dumathoin, and named it the Necropolis of the Wyrm. As news of the unspeakable deed spread through the crowd, Dagan completed the unholy ritual by summoning the "avatar" of his new god and Aurgloroasa was loose in the city. In the chaos that followed, fewer than 30 dwarves escaped the maelstrom of evil that had been unleashed. Within a tenday, Thunderholme was a lifeless city, reeking of decay.

Rest of these come from the old 2E Cult of the Dragon book.

It's possible clan Tarynstone joined Thunderholme or perhaps they founded the remote outpost mentioned above. Judging from what we know of the place's architecture, such as: Immense halls and chambers supported by titanic pillars and cut from the heart of the living mountain have become magnificent sepulchers. Immense friezes depicting dwarven nobility and the daily lives of the common folk stand as monuments to the long-dead inhabitants; I'd assume Thunderholme took many centuries to carve out.

And with Dumathoin being the Keeper of Secrets, it's possible this place has existed for quite a long time. Definitely another place I'd love to see more detail on.



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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2014 :  12:58:27  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

Maybe this will help some.

684 DR (The Year of the Sundered Crypt) - Dwarves of the clan Tarynstone are found digging deep tunnels under the city (Myth Drannor) despite the long-held prohibitions against such actions. Furthermore, some elf Houses are outraged that the dwarves' tunneling in restricted areas collapsed some nigh-forgotten deep crypts of the elder or long-gone Houses. Clan Tarynstone and its 350 dwarves, despite a cry within the Ruling Council for death sentences and an equally loud cry for acquittal, are exiled from Myth Drannor and Cormanthyr. The clan emigrates west into the Thunder Peaks. (Source: Fall of Myth Drannor)

989 DR (The Year of Dark Stalking) - Dwarven miners from a remote outpost of Thunderholme inadvertently broke into Aurgloroasa's lair and roused the very old shadow dragon from a decades-long sleep.

1001 DR - (The Year of the Awakening) Aurgloroasa began to whisper dark thoughts in the dreams of High Old One Dagan, son of Belgin, blood of Jangarak. Over the next 33 years, the ambitions of Thunderholme's high priest of Dumathoin grew as did his madness and his obsession with death.

1034 DR (The Year of Bane's Brood) - When the aging monarch (King Emerlin III) died in his sleep shortly after the disappearance of his only child, the crown prince, on a trade mission to Selgaunt, Dagan was quickly named Regent of Thunderholme. (Both the king and the prince were victims of Aurgloroasa's shadowy agents.) Within months, construction was begun on a grand temple to Dumathoin in the heart of Thunderholme.

1054 DR (The Year of the Tolling Terrors) - In a grand ceremony of dedication attended by all the dwarves of Thunderholme, the dwarven regent-priest dedicated the temple complex to Null, not Dumathoin, and named it the Necropolis of the Wyrm. As news of the unspeakable deed spread through the crowd, Dagan completed the unholy ritual by summoning the "avatar" of his new god and Aurgloroasa was loose in the city. In the chaos that followed, fewer than 30 dwarves escaped the maelstrom of evil that had been unleashed. Within a tenday, Thunderholme was a lifeless city, reeking of decay.

Rest of these come from the old 2E Cult of the Dragon book.

It's possible clan Tarynstone joined Thunderholme or perhaps they founded the remote outpost mentioned above. Judging from what we know of the place's architecture, such as: Immense halls and chambers supported by titanic pillars and cut from the heart of the living mountain have become magnificent sepulchers. Immense friezes depicting dwarven nobility and the daily lives of the common folk stand as monuments to the long-dead inhabitants; I'd assume Thunderholme took many centuries to carve out.

And with Dumathoin being the Keeper of Secrets, it's possible this place has existed for quite a long time. Definitely another place I'd love to see more detail on.







Thanks, Eilserus!

That is actually something I hadn't thought about... it may very well be that Dumathoin had "hidden" the kingdom from outsiders, and perhaps the dwarves were suspicious of both elves and humans. In any case the Realmslore provided suggests the Keeper of Secrets was the patron deity of Thunderholme. Whether this kingdom was hidden also from other dwarves, such as Clans of Oghrann and Tethyamar... hmmm, I don't know. It seems unlikely. I doubt Thunderholme was completely self-sufficient anyway, and likely traded with smaller clanholds and Tethyamar...

And that bit about Clan Tarynstone was something I didn't know. Wow. As you said, it is unlikely that this city was built in a century or two.

I think I'm going to use an earlier date for the founding of Thunderholme; maybe 15 DR (Year of Glittering Glory), or a few years after Tethyamar was retaken by the Iron House (around -70 or -80 DR). This way my players won't be inquiring about why they didn't help Tethyamar.

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2014 :  13:24:47  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For GEN-CON this year, harking back to yesteryear when such occurrences were more commonplace, I provided the Candlekeep Seminar gathering with a copy of a timeline I had created for Impiltur in GHotR format (but better - with references).

Alaundo has just posted it to the 'Keep in the Traveler's Notebook section. Have a look and let me know what you think.

Kudos for anyone who can spot some of the Easter Eggs or hidden in plain site links.

-- George Krashos


"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6012 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2014 :  14:31:45  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well i've read it several times and love it. I reckon i could pinpoint where a few of the easter eggs might be, but i have no idea what they could refer to.

Keep up the excellent work, looking forward to the history of the North next.

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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1442 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2014 :  23:15:16  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just started reading this. Love it! George, you sir, are a rockstar!
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Lukas Kain
Seeker

USA
60 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2014 :  01:56:04  Show Profile Send Lukas Kain a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know, I had just finished working on my own tentative timeline for Impiltur, taking notes from everything I could find from books to Candlekeep to some posts George had made on the Realms-L list. This is wondrously perfect because it completes my amateur list, and answers some lingering questions I had. I had wondered what this project you kept alluding to was, and I'm thrilled at the finished product. Masterfully done, George. Your research, crafting, and citing are all top-notch. By the by, thank you for including the references; it will no doubt help me out that much more.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2014 :  02:51:00  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion

Krash, you've written of Oghranni (?) dwarves in this very thread. I wonder if you have any knowledge about Oghrann's most prominent clans? 'Dwarves Deep' lists the major shield dwarf clans, but it seems most of them wandered towards Worldspine mountains, Waterdeep and Mirabar after the kingdom's fall. Which clans might have traveled eastward, other than Iron House of Tethyamar? And did Tethyamar's inhabitants include other clans beside the Iron House, e.g. Brightblade dwarves from Daggerdale?

To expand on that, is it common that, for example, Clan Dunderhead's hold might also have a few Watchever, Darkfell or Worldthrone dwarves? (i.e. families or individuals from "major" clans)



Do I have any 'knowledge' of the clans of Oghrann? No, I don't. Other than a few Oghrann mentions, the only real knowledge we have about that kingdom is in FR11 and there is no real information on any clan names - although you could probably assume that the most prominent clan was Firebeard (after its first king - although that might have just been his moniker).

Eric and I might get to Oghrann one day, but realistically that's a question of years rather than months I reckon.

I could ... ahem ... make up some stuff. But you could do so just as easily. Is this for a campaign, backstory or just wanting to fill in some lore gaps for your own edification?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2014 :  03:01:56  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion

I've also much enjoyed your lore on Tethyamar. What would be your educated guess of when Thunderholme was founded? I'm thinking of following years (in DR): -26, 127, 149, 227 and 250. Year of the Dwarf would fit nicely, but then again, Hlundadim's army assaults Cormyr around 200 DR, and I find that would have been a great opportunity for Tethyamar and/or Oghrann clans to expand into Thunder Peaks. Ergo, Year of Raised Banner (227) or Year of the Storm Crown (250) would work nicely. Or was Thunderholme, in your humble opinion, an independent kingdom and not an outpost of Tethyamar/Iron House?

Also, do you think there were refugees/clans from fallen Delzoun in Tethyamar and Thunderholme?




You have to understand that other than Ammarindar and Delzoun, the other great dwarven kingdoms fell millennia before the raising of the Standing Stone. While some dwarves and clans of the Stormhorns and the Tethyamar mountains might claim ancestry with dwarves of Oghrann, Ammarindar, Delzoun or all three, those links would be tenuous.

My view is that the dwarves that survived the fall of Oghrann eked out an existence in the Stormhorns for centuries. The fall of Delzoun saw an influx of dwarves into Ammarindar, which in turn saw an influx of dwarves into the mountains around Cormyr. In my realms it was this influx that cemented the hitherto tenuous position of the dwarves of Tethyamar, as many dwarves flocked to its halls.

As noted by Eilserus, "Cult of the Dragon" provides some information on Thunderholme. Ed would know for certain, but I would have it founded after the raising of the Standing Stone, and likely as a single clan hold with no significant population. I wouldn't think that the number of Thunderholme dwarves was ever greater than 2,000-3,000. I don't think it would have had any refugees from either Delzoun or Oghrann, but the clan that ruled there may have been a sub-clan of one of the ancient clans of Oghrann.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2014 :  03:04:16  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the nice words re the Impiltur Timeline. Note that there is a typo on the first page (I clearly can't spell "Magnificent") and endnote 121 refers to endnote 119 (not XXX).

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2014 :  17:51:24  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

[quote]You have to understand that other than Ammarindar and Delzoun, the other great dwarven kingdoms fell millennia before the raising of the Standing Stone. While some dwarves and clans of the Stormhorns and the Tethyamar mountains might claim ancestry with dwarves of Oghrann, Ammarindar, Delzoun or all three, those links would be tenuous.

My view is that the dwarves that survived the fall of Oghrann eked out an existence in the Stormhorns for centuries. The fall of Delzoun saw an influx of dwarves into Ammarindar, which in turn saw an influx of dwarves into the mountains around Cormyr. In my realms it was this influx that cemented the hitherto tenuous position of the dwarves of Tethyamar, as many dwarves flocked to its halls.

As noted by Eilserus, "Cult of the Dragon" provides some information on Thunderholme. Ed would know for certain, but I would have it founded after the raising of the Standing Stone, and likely as a single clan hold with no significant population. I wouldn't think that the number of Thunderholme dwarves was ever greater than 2,000-3,000. I don't think it would have had any refugees from either Delzoun or Oghrann, but the clan that ruled there may have been a sub-clan of one of the ancient clans of Oghrann.

-- George Krashos



Thanks, Krash!

This helps a lot, and you're correct; any blood-ties to Oghrann would likely be thin.

Something I'm curious about, though: you don't think it'd be possible that Thunderstone was founded by -- or had among its inhabitants -- members from one of the "major" clans listed in 'Dwarves Deep', such Clan Darkfell, Rockfist, Stoneshield et al.? Or members of the Tarynstone clan, who fled to Thunder Peaks from Myth Drannor?

This touches on something I find hard to grasp, namely which of those FR11 shield dwarf clans reside(d) where, or are they widespread and found to be almost anywhere in the North? Or are some of them extinct by now, such as Clan Deepdelve mentioned in relation to the Dungeon of Death?

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2014 :  18:52:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We really need a NEW Dwarf sourcebook for the Realms.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1442 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2014 :  19:39:41  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

We really need a NEW Dwarf sourcebook for the Realms.



/drool!

I'd be all over that like a hobo on a ham sammich!
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2004 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2014 :  19:48:01  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

[quote]You have to understand that other than Ammarindar and Delzoun, the other great dwarven kingdoms fell millennia before the raising of the Standing Stone. While some dwarves and clans of the Stormhorns and the Tethyamar mountains might claim ancestry with dwarves of Oghrann, Ammarindar, Delzoun or all three, those links would be tenuous.

My view is that the dwarves that survived the fall of Oghrann eked out an existence in the Stormhorns for centuries. The fall of Delzoun saw an influx of dwarves into Ammarindar, which in turn saw an influx of dwarves into the mountains around Cormyr. In my realms it was this influx that cemented the hitherto tenuous position of the dwarves of Tethyamar, as many dwarves flocked to its halls.

As noted by Eilserus, "Cult of the Dragon" provides some information on Thunderholme. Ed would know for certain, but I would have it founded after the raising of the Standing Stone, and likely as a single clan hold with no significant population. I wouldn't think that the number of Thunderholme dwarves was ever greater than 2,000-3,000. I don't think it would have had any refugees from either Delzoun or Oghrann, but the clan that ruled there may have been a sub-clan of one of the ancient clans of Oghrann.

-- George Krashos



Thanks, Krash!

This helps a lot, and you're correct; any blood-ties to Oghrann would likely be thin.

Something I'm curious about, though: you don't think it'd be possible that Thunderstone was founded by -- or had among its inhabitants -- members from one of the "major" clans listed in 'Dwarves Deep', such Clan Darkfell, Rockfist, Stoneshield et al.? Or members of the Tarynstone clan, who fled to Thunder Peaks from Myth Drannor?

This touches on something I find hard to grasp, namely which of those FR11 shield dwarf clans reside(d) where, or are they widespread and found to be almost anywhere in the North? Or are some of them extinct by now, such as Clan Deepdelve mentioned in relation to the Dungeon of Death?



So, George and I have been using that list as a "list of available clan names". So far, we've worked out Delzoun, some of Besilmer, and some of Ammarindar.

We've got the idea of primary clans and affiliate clans, usually tied to one hold. Over time, those clans move around as mines play out, dwarfholds get overrun, or new riches beckon. Sometimes clans die out or all but die out, and other times, new clans are formed.

We've been using those clan names primarily for Delzoun, as that's the most famous dwarf realm, but they could be used for any shield dwarf kingdom.

More later. (Much later. We've made notes for a future "for fun" Delzoun-area sourcebook, but we've got to finish off the elves first. Bwahahahah.)

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6012 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2014 :  20:12:48  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I actually can't wait to see this sourcebook. I have to have it now. I don't care if it costs a million quid, I will sell everything I own to have a copy of it.

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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2014 :  23:59:28  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

So, George and I have been using that list as a "list of available clan names". So far, we've worked out Delzoun, some of Besilmer, and some of Ammarindar.

We've got the idea of primary clans and affiliate clans, usually tied to one hold. Over time, those clans move around as mines play out, dwarfholds get overrun, or new riches beckon. Sometimes clans die out or all but die out, and other times, new clans are formed.

We've been using those clan names primarily for Delzoun, as that's the most famous dwarf realm, but they could be used for any shield dwarf kingdom.

More later. (Much later. We've made notes for a future "for fun" Delzoun-area sourcebook, but we've got to finish off the elves first. Bwahahahah.)

--Eric



Oooh, you're a shameless tease, Eric! But, who cares about elves... it's dwarves we all want! Give us the new 'Stout Folk and the Clans of the Realms' book!

But, seriously, this is something that's really been bugging me... not knowing if certain clans have "primary" strongholds or areas. Or whether they still exist. For example, I initially had Foehammer, Stoneshoulder and Deepdelve clans written down as potentials founders of Thunderholme, until I Googled them. Then I did the same with Stoneshield and Quarrymaster, and realized that George had already associated the former with Delzoun and the latter with Tethyamar, on this very thread. I think Deepfell is probably the only shield dwarf clan name left "unused" in FR11.

In any case, most of those clans seem to have lived either north, west or north-west of Cormyr anyway.

I could come up with a small clan of my own, say "Darkhammer" or "Shieldstar" or whatever. But here's the thing; I don't even necessarily need to know which clan Emerlin belonged to. I'd rather have a better picture of *where* those dwarves came from, and have a few clan names (some probably "major" ones, others more obscure smaller clans) that would "make sense" to live in Thunderholme. Let's say the PCs find a crypt belonging to Clan Stoneshoulder, and I'm sure my players would point out how "Stoneshoulders built bridges around Loudwater, they did not live here". Likewise with Deepdelve or Foehammer. I could tell them that these clans are global, or that a group of that clan wandered to Thunder Peaks from Loudwater 1000 years ago. But it might feel a bit weird if I said there were actually 2000 Stoneshoulder or Foehammer dwarves in Thunderholme (which would likely make it the MAIN fortress of the clan in the Realms).

So, I'm not entirely sure if a single major clan in a kingdom surrounded by so many enemies is "enough". And yet there is nothing in canon about Thunderholme trading or having a relationship with any other dwarven kingdoms or clan holds. It's as if they were an isolated and self-sufficient community that sprang into existence out of nowhere.

After giving it some serious thought, I personally see Thundeholme being founded by many minor clans and clanless individuals, and later on serving as a hidden "haven" for refugees of fallen kingdoms. For example, there are Tarynstones of Ammarindar, who were cast out of Myth Drannor and went to Thunder Peaks, and I think they might have wanted to join Thunderholme rather than try to make it on their own (by establishing a small hold on the eastern flank of the mountains). I can also imagine that at least some minor clans from Tethyamar might have wanted to expand their influence in a new kingdom, one known for its miners and craftsmen. And maybe at least a few dozen dwarves of Storm Peaks (who came from fallen Delzoun) might have done the same, too.

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm

Edited by - Asgetrion on 16 Dec 2014 00:01:02
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2014 :  00:11:19  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And Krash, that Impiltur timeline is just AMAZING! :)

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2014 :  01:09:51  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion

Krash, you've written of Oghranni (?) dwarves in this very thread. I wonder if you have any knowledge about Oghrann's most prominent clans? 'Dwarves Deep' lists the major shield dwarf clans, but it seems most of them wandered towards Worldspine mountains, Waterdeep and Mirabar after the kingdom's fall. Which clans might have traveled eastward, other than Iron House of Tethyamar? And did Tethyamar's inhabitants include other clans beside the Iron House, e.g. Brightblade dwarves from Daggerdale?

To expand on that, is it common that, for example, Clan Dunderhead's hold might also have a few Watchever, Darkfell or Worldthrone dwarves? (i.e. families or individuals from "major" clans)



Do I have any 'knowledge' of the clans of Oghrann? No, I don't. Other than a few Oghrann mentions, the only real knowledge we have about that kingdom is in FR11 and there is no real information on any clan names - although you could probably assume that the most prominent clan was Firebeard (after its first king - although that might have just been his moniker).

Eric and I might get to Oghrann one day, but realistically that's a question of years rather than months I reckon.

I could ... ahem ... make up some stuff. But you could do so just as easily. Is this for a campaign, backstory or just wanting to fill in some lore gaps for your own edification?

-- George Krashos



Sorry, Krash, missed this post for some reason. It's for my campaign; I'm using goblins and barghests of Hlundadim as one of the main plots/enemies, and trying to link Thunderholme and/or Tethyamar into a dwarf PC's background. Now, we're talking about a sizable group of 11th level PCs, so I can use nigh-epic stuff against them. Maybe even the "Lord" of Thunderholme (Heh heh!) at some point.

I was hoping to get Oghrann into the picture, too; perhaps only as background lore, but I was also dreaming of naming some ancient clans and clan holds, if possible. And i'd better not mess it up by using, for example, Foehammers or Ironstars. In that sense it'd be better just to make up clan names... but I first wanted to know if you'd already given the issue some thought.

And I'm going to feature a first glimpse of Thunderholme and its mystery during the Christman holiday, in a week or so. That is why I've been so persistent in my questions (and apologies for that; normally I'm a really patient guy).

(As for King Firebeard, I think that may be just a moniker; a lot of the kings in FR11 and other sources seem to be 'Frostbeards', 'Ironbeards' and 'Stonebeards')

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1442 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2014 :  02:51:44  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you have the old 2E Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms, on page 108 is a picture of the entry cavern to Thunderholme. A large cavern with homes built into the rock. Very nice picture.

There's also a neat story dealing with Lorrick finding one of the keys to enter the hold. And what happens when their adventuring group does enter.

Also, Thelarn "Swifthammer", son of Mongoth who is entombed at the Hill of Lost Souls. He gifted his axe Skysplitter to Lorrick and it was supposedly forged in Thunderholme.

Edited by - Eilserus on 16 Dec 2014 03:04:33
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe

Belgium
273 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2014 :  22:20:08  Show Profile Send Duneth Despana a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First of all: I love your lists of plays, drinks, books and songs of the Realms. Thank you! In your 'Book list of tomes in Candlekeep' the 'High History of the drow' is listed first as having been written in 1366 and counting 4 tomes and later as counting only one and having been written c.-200 ... which one is right? I have a vhaeraunite who'd like to consult it.

« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe

Belgium
273 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2014 :  23:31:51  Show Profile Send Duneth Despana a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Any news on 'History of the Heartlands'?

« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe

Belgium
273 Posts

Posted - 17 Dec 2014 :  01:04:56  Show Profile Send Duneth Despana a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You mention Askavar in your write-up for Dornavver in Champions of Valor. Do you have any more information (Timeline?) on this elven realm. Thanks in advance (and thanks not in advance for the truly superb realmslore you produce!).

« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 17 Dec 2014 :  14:11:22  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Duneth Despana

First of all: I love your lists of plays, drinks, books and songs of the Realms. Thank you! In your 'Book list of tomes in Candlekeep' the 'High History of the drow' is listed first as having been written in 1366 and counting 4 tomes and later as counting only one and having been written c.-200 ... which one is right? I have a vhaeraunite who'd like to consult it.



Both.

The single copy is a direct copy of the original penned by the drow sage Shahaerynus and obtained from Myth Drannor. The copy was penned in -200 DR while the original, lost in the fall of the City of Song, was penned in -250 DR and gifted to Coronal Tannivh of Cormanthyr. Both the original and the copy were scribed in Deep Drow.

In 1366 DR, Morthran of Candlekeep translated the copy contained there into Common as the original's great age and increasing fragility made perusing it a constant risk of degradation and damage. The Great Reader ordered another 3 copies of his work to be created also. So, in simple terms, there are actually 5 copies of the book The High History of the Drow contained in Candlekeep. The original in the drow language, now rarely handled, and four copies in Common which are more readily accessible.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 17 Dec 2014 :  14:13:10  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Duneth Despana

Any news on 'History of the Heartlands'?



No news. Eric and I glance over that way every so often, but won't be visiting for some time.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 17 Dec 2014 :  14:53:35  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Duneth Despana

You mention Askavar in your write-up for Dornavver in Champions of Valor. Do you have any more information (Timeline?) on this elven realm. Thanks in advance (and thanks not in advance for the truly superb realmslore you produce!).



I'd be just speculating if I came up with anything. We know that the realm existed into the 500s DR before falling, and my Dornavver piece has it existing as early as the 350s DR, but that's about it. As to where the elves came from, and what elven sub-group (i.e. gold, moon, green) they were, is anyone's guess.

If I had to 'make a call' on the place, I'd have it founded by the Starym just prior to the raising of the mythal in Myth Drannor as they leave the city in increasing numbers at the prospect of the Opening. It wouldn't be a nice elven realm, quite the contrary, and it's 'fall' is actually an abandonment as the Starym return to Myth Drannor when Ilitran succeeds in drawing the family moonblade.

In my mind that would explain how the elves survived in that isolated wood for a few centuries despite being surrounded by humans and monsters. No one screws with the Starym.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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