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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4141 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2012 :  05:32:48  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

The relationship of the Eraka, the barbarians of the Ride, and the humans of the North in very early times is not set out in the canon sources other than the comment in GHotR at p.10. I consider that as before, there were humans here who were enslaved by dragons and giants. Those that survived created tribal groupings and I consider that at least one grouping retained enough "civilization" from their likely former giant masters to take over and maintain the Citadel of the Raven fortresses (that they had likely built for their giant masters) for a few centuries before some enemy or cataclysm brought that realm to an end.

Survivors likely coalesced into nomadic barbarian tribes, which in the -400s DR or so received the gift of horses from Rengarth barbarians travelling west to escape the depredations of the phaerimm whose 'lifedrain' magics had destroyed the Narrow Sea and their ancestral grasslands. I note that "Races of Faerun" (p.108) states that the Ride barbarians had the Angardt as their ancestors while the Tunlar barbarians had the Rengarth as their ancestors. I consider that this is an error as the Netheril boxed set maps make it clear that the Rengarth were the northern tribal grouping, while the Angardt were the southern.




My only thought contrary to what you have said here is that the humans could have had access to horses in the area of The Ride prior to the date you give. My reasoning being the elven civilizations to the west and south of the Eraka...and many Fey "relics" (meaning non-magical relics) hint at the Eraka having contact with Fey and/or elves as early as even prior to their "freedom" from Giant and Dragon masters.

All the other parts you have put together here though have given me a greater degree of clarity on the Eraka and their interaction with other groups than I had before! Thanks for the awesome "think" you shared here George!

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2012 :  15:47:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That was great!
That helps a lot with some of my proto-history - Thanks.

My main concern (for what I am working on ATM) is the relationship between the Regardt, Angardt, and Uthgardt. Were these all Ice Hunters who 'evolved' into those clans (considering the 20K+ years involved)?*

I kind of know who/what the Uthgardt are, because that's spelled-out pretty clearly in the lore, but the differences between the Rengardt and Angardt is more subtle, and thus more confusing (plus, as you pointed out, we've gotten 'bad' info before). Do we even know if the proto-Netherese (people of Seventon) were even of the same racial stock as all the 'gardt peoples? Or were they Gur, as I suspect (and thus distantly related to the Raumvari racial groups)? I recall something about he Netherese survivors mixing with the Rengardt(?), but before that, there is no canon where the two groups are racially the same?


*I say 'evolved', but its more like history taking a natural course. Adversity breads adaptability, and adaptability leads to civilization-building. The groups of Ice-Hunters who (possibly) became the 'gardt (which could just be an ancient human word for 'horse') tribes went further inlaid and south, where they were forced to compete for resources, so they became more organized and a bit more civilized (I say 'a bit', because being more warlike then their ancient forbears, that's a matter of perspective). You seemed to have touched upon something that has given rise to a new thought of mine - the ('modern') Ice-Hunters retained their ancient culture and ways because the Elves had sort-of put them in 'preserves' (the way early European Americans put Native Americans on reservations). Because they were not faced with the adversity their wilder brethren were, they did not need to change much over such an immense span of time.

EDIT: Above I said "of the same racial stock as all the 'gardt peoples". My thinking on this is thus - the original Seventon people were of a particular racial stock (either indigenous or migratory), but as their empire grew it also grew to take-in peoples of other ethnicities (here I am thinking the 'gardt peoples of the north, and also the Talfir peoples of the south). By Talfir I am thinking the Land of Alabaster Towers - it doesn't make sense for them to have committed genocide on the entire population of Thaeravel. They would have killed the leaders and absorbed the population. I think this may have created an even more profound cultural line (caste-system) in Netheril - the people of 'low Netheril' were not of the original Netherese racial stock (whatever that may have been). The people living in the flying enclaves would have been 'above' the others, both figuratively and literally.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Nov 2012 18:34:38
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Sightless
Senior Scribe

USA
608 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2012 :  11:54:24  Show Profile Send Sightless a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's not posted yet, sorry, I like to wait until I'm finished before I post. It will be in the "titles of Thay" scroll when I'm done.

We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.

Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2012 :  12:11:47  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

That was great!
That helps a lot with some of my proto-history - Thanks.

My main concern (for what I am working on ATM) is the relationship between the Regardt, Angardt, and Uthgardt. Were these all Ice Hunters who 'evolved' into those clans (considering the 20K+ years involved)?*

I kind of know who/what the Uthgardt are, because that's spelled-out pretty clearly in the lore, but the differences between the Rengardt and Angardt is more subtle, and thus more confusing (plus, as you pointed out, we've gotten 'bad' info before). Do we even know if the proto-Netherese (people of Seventon) were even of the same racial stock as all the 'gardt peoples? Or were they Gur, as I suspect (and thus distantly related to the Raumvari racial groups)? I recall something about he Netherese survivors mixing with the Rengardt(?), but before that, there is no canon where the two groups are racially the same?



In all your excitement, you've fallen into the same trap I did when I first looked at this and thought I saw "SOMETHINGdt" human tribes. It's actually Rengarth, not Rengardt. I do think that the "dt" does stand for something. It might simply be "apostrophe s", in other words, Uthgardt is Uthgar's and Angardt is Angar's with a silent 'people' attached to it. Here in Australia, your Burger King franchise is called Hungry Jacks (no idea why). Most people just call it 'Hungrys'. Of course we also call McDonalds "Maccas" so it could just be my DownUnder way of thinking that has come up with that explanation!

Back to the discussion, it's difficult to say whether all of the humans of the North were Ulutiuns with varying levels of civilisation. Different racial groupings are usually the preserve of geographical barriers, and other than the Spine of the World, there aren't really many of those in the North. That said, the Realms has what our world never has had, which is competing races of an equivalent or more sophisticated level of civilisation.

So what is the relationship between the Rengarth, Angardt and Uthgardt? The last of the three is a mix of surviving Netherese wandering humans who merged with the Northmen of Uthgar to form the tribes that are known to the modern Realms. LEoF gives the important dates for that genesis, which I first bedded down in my long ago (now) North Timeline.

As for the Rengarth and the Angardt, the latter tribe was an offshoot of the former. As detailed in "The Winds of Netheril" (pgs.17-18), in -1382 DR the Rengarth exiled the Angardt (who were a faction of barbarians within the Rengarth) from the northern grasslands which previously had been both their homes, as the Angardt "threw off the shackles of the superstitions of magic use and began dabbling in magic".

The Angardt moved south, and in my view, with the creation of Anauroch, moved into the Tunlands and found a new home. There they founded the great city of Urdrath (see "Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast").

I'm not sure where you bring the Gur into the Netherese equation as the lore is pretty clear that they didn't get to the western Realms before -250 DR. That was after the fall of Netheril and the scattering of the barbarian humans who lived within its ostensible territory.

Of course, the social and political landscape of Netheril throughout its history is a total cypher. It is when trying to think of Netheril in those terms, that I curse that flawed product of all flawed products called the "Netheril" boxed set. I have the 6-page outline that Ed sent TSR back in the day, comprising his Netheril lore. It is a broad, sweeping document that highlights the importance of keeping the mystery of the realm alive and talks about its magic, gods and geography in the context of the bigger vistas of the Realms' proto-history. While it does allude to some social and political aspects of the Realms, these are not given much detail. I note also that much of this social/political commentary wasn't adopted by TSR in the final product. Quite simply, to this day, there is little or no information on how Netheril as a realm was governed (if indeed it was at all!) and by who and how.

Naturally, this makes it difficult to answer questions regarding the racial ties between the Rengarth/Angardt and what Eric Boyd and I termed Low and High Netheril in "Lost Empires of Faerun". I like your idea of the people of Thaeravel being subjugated and absorbed into the population of Netheril, but am not sure as to what level this occurred - again, Low or High.

Netheril is such a conundrum because the product devoted to it, pretty much treated it as existing in a human vacuum. The great joy of products such as "Cormanthyr" and "Empires of the Shining Sea" is that the history shows many realms, kingdoms and cities rising and falling and providing a historical narrative that makes the modern Realms believable for areas touched on by those products. "Netheril" did no such thing. There are no rival human cities or realms. The interplay between Netheril and the "barbarians" who appear to roam within her geographic borders, is undetailed. The contact points with the elves and dwarves are similarly broad, lacking in any realmslore specifics and couched in ways that make Netheril seem like a "Valley of the Lost" place (i.e. the Netherese 'search' for the dwarves of Delzoun (described as humanlike rock beings!) for 269 years, the elves of Eaerlann are creatures of "mere myth" etc. etc. - give me a break!).

So to conclude, I'm not sure I can add much more to your questions on the relationships between the barbarians of the North in the context of Netheril and its fall. That of course doesn't stop you from giving it a go. I'm more than happy to read your musings.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1594 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2012 :  09:38:03  Show Profile Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always suspected that the Reghed were the direct descendants of the Rengarth, due to their appearance, of course, and attitude of no acceptance of magic at all...

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Edited by - Barastir on 08 Nov 2012 09:38:40
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2012 :  17:17:58  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Ulutians are of an Oriental stock (or, at least, a mix). IIRC, that was first hinted at in the Kara-Tur material (a lost tribe of Issacortae), and was made canon in the GHotR.

The Traell are VERY simialr culturally, but are not described as Oriental (although would a giant even be able to tell the difference?) My supposition is this: The original Ice Hunters - those primitive humans that fell under the protection/guardianship of the Elves - taught their culture and ways to others, as new peoples were met and needed the Ice hunters survival skills. The Traell would have been a combination of native Ice Hunter and Netherese, and the Ulutians would have been a combination of Ice Hunter and Issacortae (although I think the Issacortae was already a mix of proto-Talfir and Haltai/Oriental stock). Thus, in the case of the Hartsvale people there was an actual mixing of blood, but in the case of the Ulutians it may have been more of a cultural thing (which even one tribe of dwarves picked up on).

As for the Gur, I picture a migration due to displacement in the Taan region. When the Haltai (aboriginal K-T peoples) learned of horsemanship from the ancient Raumvari (Gur), they began to spread inot the Taan and displaced the original culture there - that of the Raumvari. This may have even been helped along by the Imaskari, who may have driven their Taangan (Tuigan) minions out of the Plain of Horses in order to subjugate the raumvari 9hich they eventually did).

This meant the Raumvari would have been driven east, across the north-eastern portion of Faern. Some would have become sedentary, like the Rashemi, while others would have continued their nomadic lifestyle in harsher northern lands, in Narfeell and eventually on into the Moonsea lands (which were VERY different back then). The maps make for some very bad assumptions, because they should have changed dramatically over time (which usually isn't illustrated correcty), and also from edition to edition (the mountain range between the Taan and Rashemi & Thay was much more broken up, as per the 1e maps).

When the Tear fell in the Northeast, creating the Moonsea (presumably from the much smaller, previously-named Dragon Sea), this drove the migratory Raumvari (Gur) further west, and separated them from their eastern cousins (back in Narfell). Hmmmmm... come to think of it, 'Nar' is probably a mistranslated version of 'Gur' by the indigenous peoples who were themselves displaced by the Raumvari exodus out of the Taan (not sure which humans may have been there, if any... I'm thinking mostly centaurs, actually). Maybe centaurs can't pronounce the letter 'G'.

One of these days I have to work on that human migration patterns map I've always wanted to do. Unfortunately, I am beginning to come down off my Gencon high and am finding it hard to work on FR maps again.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Nov 2012 17:29:11
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4141 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2012 :  01:34:29  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey George, do you think the following would apply to the type of government in Impiltur:

Confederated Feudal Monarchy

Or something else?

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2012 :  06:26:51  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
More like Decentralized Theocratic Monarchy (or Regency depending on what period you are playing).

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2012 :  03:05:56  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Krash, I found this query for you floating in the ether, from scribe Khondar:-
quote:
GK,

What relationship, if any, do the Bladebright dwarves have with the Iron House dwarves?

Do you have any numbers for the current population of Clan Bladebright and/or it's current leader (as of 1368 - during the Doom of Daggerdale).

As always - any ideas that you could share would be greatly appreciated!

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2012 :  04:03:03  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Krash,

I was just reflecting on some stuff you wrote back in 2004 re: the "first flavour" piece for the speculative 'one day' product Phalorm: The Realm of Three Crowns... specifically, King Ruardh Lightshiver of Phalorm.

Did either you or Eric elaborate on him any further? I'm currently writing some background material for an ancient ballad from the days of Phalorm, and Lightshiver came up as a potential character I would like to cast in the musical piece. So any further details would be greatly appreciated. If not, I'm more than content to make it up as a I go, but I just thought I'd shake your mental tree first, and see what falls out.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2012 :  06:40:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why does Impiltur - a nation over a thousand years old - still have a 'frontier'? Not being facetious or anything - I was just re-reading your Impiltur article and I'm sure you've put some thought into it yourself.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Dec 2012 07:17:17
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Lukas Kain
Seeker

USA
60 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2012 :  22:56:08  Show Profile Send Lukas Kain a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is something I've been looking into for awhile, and I've decided to join Candlekeep just to fully understand. I have looked through some threads.
This may be a stupid question, but: I've read a few different labels of the government of Impiltur, but what I'm curious of is the direction of accountability. What I mean is how is the government organized? Obviously we have our King (or Queen-Regent and Lords), but from there where does it go? I mean does it funnel down into duchies and baronies, or are the cities responsible for themselves unless a matter requires the King (or whomever)?
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4141 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2012 :  02:35:55  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Why does Impiltur - a nation over a thousand years old - still have a 'frontier'? Not being facetious or anything - I was just re-reading your Impiltur article and I'm sure you've put some thought into it yourself.



Magic...seriously; magic causes weird things to happen in a geo-political sense.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2012 :  06:15:22  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Krash, I found this query for you floating in the ether, from scribe Khondar:-
quote:
GK,

What relationship, if any, do the Bladebright dwarves have with the Iron House dwarves?

Do you have any numbers for the current population of Clan Bladebright and/or it's current leader (as of 1368 - during the Doom of Daggerdale).

As always - any ideas that you could share would be greatly appreciated!




I've long pondered the relationship (if any) between the Bladebright dwarves and those of the Iron House of Tethyamar. I considered it quite odd that Ghellin, king-in-exile of Tethyamar, would leave the environs of the Desertsmouth Mtns/Daggerdale and move all the way to the Far Hills, while his Bladebright kin would stay in the region.

That's why I've always thought that the Bladebright dwarves actually came to the region after the fall of Tethyamar, perhaps taking control of some outlying hold of the Tethyamar dwarves. Ed would be the best person to ask this as for all its "detail" the history of the Dalelands is not particularly well fleshed out.

As for numbers and/or name of a leader I would only be giving you my guess and name if I answered. I have no lore to base any such postulations on. Come up with whatever suits your campaign and game. The chances of your stuff being contradicted in any material other than Ed's scroll here, is practically zero.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2012 :  06:40:52  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Why does Impiltur - a nation over a thousand years old - still have a 'frontier'? Not being facetious or anything - I was just re-reading your Impiltur article and I'm sure you've put some thought into it yourself.



I can't recall if I said that Impiltur had a frontier or said that the Uplands and the Farwater have a "frontier-feel".

While that might be a study in semantics, the easy answer to your question is "geography". It's an answer that would be right up your alley.

As you know, the nation of Impiltur wraps itself, from Lyrabar and the environs of the Grey Forest eastward, and then up and around west, northwest to places like Tower Ithfell. The Earthspurs are a formidable barrier and basically make the Easting Coast the place where all the cities are.

In the absence of cities and/or large settlements, we are left with many scattered smaller settlements, thaedar, mining communities etc. The farther we get from Sarshel, the greater the isolation. That's why Impiltur has a frontier-feel to it. It's the fact that there are wide-open spaces with little in the way of big population centres.

In a similar vein, the Heartlands remains "frontier" country notwithstanding that it has been settled for over a thousand years. Open, unclaimed space tends to attract that moniker.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 15 Dec 2012 06:41:25
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2012 :  14:38:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, but the Western Heartlands are hotly contested by many groups, unlike Impiltur which is pretty-much left alone since the Hobgoblins were defeated.

I've been working on a new Impiltur map (as part of my new Eastern Heartlands map) and I'm embarrassed to say I put very little thought into the region with the first map I made of Impiltur. Now that I'm revisiting the area I have some nifty ideas, which I may want to run by you at some point. Basically I'm thinking after the first Impiltur (dynasty) fell, the country fell into disarray, and without much of a standing army (at least not in the northern parts), the 'high country' was left to fend for itself, which means that many outlying settlements would have been abandoned due to various threats (orcs, bandits, etc). The cities would have seen a sudden surge in population, while most of the smaller settlements would have become 'ghost towns'. Very few of those original settlements would have remained - thus, upper Impiltur would have gone back to being mostly a frontier, which then could have only been reclaimed within the past century or so. That means the Impilturan countryside should be littered with ruins (which just so happens to be what D&D is all about).

As for 'the wall' - I have some notions about what I'd like to do there, including a minor 'correction' (an actual change made with an in-game explanation). I've even sketched out the area to get a better idea of whats going on there - where can I find the most comprehensive lore about Impiltur (before your article)?

EDIT: Is Ilmwatch a large city or small city?

EDIT2: Is Tsurlagol a city or a town? The 3e map shows it as a port city, but I think that is incorrect.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 19 Dec 2012 16:58:06
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2012 :  23:08:33  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lukas Kain

This is something I've been looking into for awhile, and I've decided to join Candlekeep just to fully understand. I have looked through some threads.
This may be a stupid question, but: I've read a few different labels of the government of Impiltur, but what I'm curious of is the direction of accountability. What I mean is how is the government organized? Obviously we have our King (or Queen-Regent and Lords), but from there where does it go? I mean does it funnel down into duchies and baronies, or are the cities responsible for themselves unless a matter requires the King (or whomever)?



The ostensible authority of the Crown is currently vested in the Lords of Imphras II, but in practical terms they cannot deal with every item of legal and administrative business that crops up on a daily basis throughout the kingdom. Given this, it is the local Royal Heralds who handle all administrative and civil business, while the Royal Constables deal with all criminal and "security" issues. Heralds and Constables are found in all of the major cities and are appointed by the Crown.

In more remote areas such as the Uplands, Royal Constables are found in the big fortress towns of Ithfell and Mal, but the Heralds have no permanent presence, using instead a system of roving Heralds who do a circuit of outlying areas along with at least six Royal Constables who have no permanent place of governance, but are used to trouble-shoot as required.

There are no "duchies" or "baronies" as administrative or legal entities in the realm although there are indeed ducal and baronial holdings. The nobility of Impiltur wield no direct power, but their influence is enormous, and many senior nobles act as quasi-advisors to resident Constables and Heralds on an ad-hoc basis. There have been occasions, due to death, illness or simple geography, where nobles have been given temporary standing to govern and make decisions, but these situations are rare and have never turned into a lasting or long-term arrangement. There are members of the nobility who have been or are Royal Constables and Royal Heralds, but their loyalty is to the Crown first and their families second - those who get those priorities wrong seldom last long in the position.

Both the Heralds and the Royal Constables located throughout Impiltur have a large staff of bureaucrats who do the heavy lifting regarding the day to day operations of the realm. Such support however becomes thin on the ground the further away you are from Lyrabar. The Royal Coinmaster (head tax collector) in Lyrabar for example, has some 50 staff reporting to him. The Royal Coinmaster at Tower Ithfell has a (harried) staff of about 4 individuals. Good help is hard to find.

It should be made clear that the Royal Heralds of Impiltur are connected with the High Heralds of Faerun, but unlike in Cormyr wield direct power. In Cormyr they function more as aides and advisers to local rulers. In Impiltur they have Crown authority vested in them directly, but it should be noted that Royal Constables outrank the Royal Heralds and can reverse their decisions and/or overrule them. In practice though, such decisions are deferred to the Lords.

Here are the individuals who govern in the name of the Crown in Impiltur (c. 1370 DR):

Lyrabar
Royal Constable: Brembar Wintersun
Royal Herald: Korthaun Morthil

Hlammach
Royal Constable: Tiringar Felnim
Royal Herald: Imdras Fairfollow

Dilpur
Royal Constable: Iolarth Greenbrook
Royal Herald: Kellana Dintersan

Sarshel
Royal Constable: Nelra "the Fair" Silverstar
Royal Herald: Faergaun Drell

Ilmwatch
Royal Constable: Imindarth Murn
Royal Herald: Nordell Longstride, "Old Gruff"

Tower Mal
Royal Constable: Laerthal "Swiftdoom" Starsunder

Tower Ithfell
Royal Constable: Cordebrar Antarn

Of the 'roving' Royal Constables, the most noteworthy are Wyaun "the Grim" Peldar (a man-mountain of stern countenance, biting wit and deadly with an axe), Taranthar Hawkblade and Elnarra Zelnass (a homely, pot-bellied red-head with iron self-control, inscrutable mien and ever-ready throwing daggers).

Some notable travelling Royal Heralds are Embrathaun Deephorn (a short, energetic, 'down to business'-type), Milbraun Evenstarth, Heleggar Forgecrown (of noble stock, sarcastic, and a very accurate 'reader' of people), Theldrar "Runedagger" Scorchspear and Belthrar Swiftarrow.

Hope this has been helpful.

-- George Krashos


"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 21 Dec 2012 23:29:41
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2012 :  23:28:14  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Since I see you are answering questions: Whats the deal with 'New Sarshel'?
And does it have less calories?

EDIT: Map's coming out damn pretty, if I do say so myself.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Dec 2012 23:29:39
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The Sage
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Posted - 22 Dec 2012 :  01:52:45  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Tower Mal
Royal Constable: Laerthal "Swiftdoom" Starsunder

Tower Ithfell
Royal Constable: Cordebrar Antarn

I'm assuming there's another reason -- aside from the obvious one -- for why the Towers don't count Royal Heralds among those who govern in the name of the Crown?

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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 16 Mar 2013 :  02:45:56  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You mentioned that this bit of lore didn't make a ripple, but I couldn't go shouting on here that it is now in my Swords of the Moonsea game on someone's hip!

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 16 Mar 2013 :  04:53:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like it. Not sure why I didn't comment on it before.

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The Sage
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Posted - 16 Mar 2013 :  05:10:33  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And I don't even know how I missed it... given the little musical tidbit Krash included [and that will soon be entered into my copious notebooks on the subject of musical Realmslore references].

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Lukas Kain
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Posted - 22 Apr 2013 :  07:07:40  Show Profile Send Lukas Kain a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The ostensible authority of the Crown is currently vested in the Lords of Imphras II, but in practical terms they cannot deal with every item of legal and administrative business that crops up on a daily basis throughout the kingdom. Given this, it is the local Royal Heralds who handle all administrative and civil business, while the Royal Constables deal with all criminal and "security" issues. Heralds and Constables are found in all of the major cities and are appointed by the Crown.

In more remote areas such as the Uplands, Royal Constables are found in the big fortress towns of Ithfell and Mal, but the Heralds have no permanent presence, using instead a system of roving Heralds who do a circuit of outlying areas along with at least six Royal Constables who have no permanent place of governance, but are used to trouble-shoot as required.

There are no "duchies" or "baronies" as administrative or legal entities in the realm although there are indeed ducal and baronial holdings. The nobility of Impiltur wield no direct power, but their influence is enormous, and many senior nobles act as quasi-advisors to resident Constables and Heralds on an ad-hoc basis. There have been occasions, due to death, illness or simple geography, where nobles have been given temporary standing to govern and make decisions, but these situations are rare and have never turned into a lasting or long-term arrangement. There are members of the nobility who have been or are Royal Constables and Royal Heralds, but their loyalty is to the Crown first and their families second - those who get those priorities wrong seldom last long in the position.

Both the Heralds and the Royal Constables located throughout Impiltur have a large staff of bureaucrats who do the heavy lifting regarding the day to day operations of the realm. Such support however becomes thin on the ground the further away you are from Lyrabar. The Royal Coinmaster (head tax collector) in Lyrabar for example, has some 50 staff reporting to him. The Royal Coinmaster at Tower Ithfell has a (harried) staff of about 4 individuals. Good help is hard to find.

It should be made clear that the Royal Heralds of Impiltur are connected with the High Heralds of Faerun, but unlike in Cormyr wield direct power. In Cormyr they function more as aides and advisers to local rulers. In Impiltur they have Crown authority vested in them directly, but it should be noted that Royal Constables outrank the Royal Heralds and can reverse their decisions and/or overrule them. In practice though, such decisions are deferred to the Lords.

Here are the individuals who govern in the name of the Crown in Impiltur (c. 1370 DR):

Lyrabar
Royal Constable: Brembar Wintersun
Royal Herald: Korthaun Morthil

Hlammach
Royal Constable: Tiringar Felnim
Royal Herald: Imdras Fairfollow

Dilpur
Royal Constable: Iolarth Greenbrook
Royal Herald: Kellana Dintersan

Sarshel
Royal Constable: Nelra "the Fair" Silverstar
Royal Herald: Faergaun Drell

Ilmwatch
Royal Constable: Imindarth Murn
Royal Herald: Nordell Longstride, "Old Gruff"

Tower Mal
Royal Constable: Laerthal "Swiftdoom" Starsunder

Tower Ithfell
Royal Constable: Cordebrar Antarn

Of the 'roving' Royal Constables, the most noteworthy are Wyaun "the Grim" Peldar (a man-mountain of stern countenance, biting wit and deadly with an axe), Taranthar Hawkblade and Elnarra Zelnass (a homely, pot-bellied red-head with iron self-control, inscrutable mien and ever-ready throwing daggers).

Some notable travelling Royal Heralds are Embrathaun Deephorn (a short, energetic, 'down to business'-type), Milbraun Evenstarth, Heleggar Forgecrown (of noble stock, sarcastic, and a very accurate 'reader' of people), Theldrar "Runedagger" Scorchspear and Belthrar Swiftarrow.

Hope this has been helpful.

-- George Krashos





I guess I'm still confused about the whole barony and duke thing. I get that they have no direct administrative power, but then what do the holdings represent, and where (and what then)are they?
I'm also curious what roles these holdings play besides having influence on the council and the Queen-Regent? I guess I just don't understand the point of them existing if they have no real power. Are the barons and dukes similar to the U.K.'s royalty,
who seem to be more celebrity than rulers?
I appreciate the incredible answer given. I really didn't expect it. Obviously what you've given me thus far is incredibly helpful, I just want a deeper understanding.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
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Posted - 22 Apr 2013 :  07:46:45  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Here are the individuals who govern in the name of the Crown in Impiltur (c. 1370 DR):
Wow. That was a hugely awesome post. Thanks for sharing this information, George.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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George Krashos
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Posted - 23 Apr 2013 :  01:57:46  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lukas Kain
I guess I'm still confused about the whole barony and duke thing. I get that they have no direct administrative power, but then what do the holdings represent, and where (and what then)are they?
I'm also curious what roles these holdings play besides having influence on the council and the Queen-Regent? I guess I just don't understand the point of them existing if they have no real power. Are the barons and dukes similar to the U.K.'s royalty,
who seem to be more celebrity than rulers?
I appreciate the incredible answer given. I really didn't expect it. Obviously what you've given me thus far is incredibly helpful, I just want a deeper understanding.



The ducal and baronial holdings are simply the property and lands owned by the various noble families of the Realms. As with most things, the more land and property that you own, the more money you have. The more money you have, the greater your influence. The nobles of Impiltur have no power other than more ready access to the Queen-Regent and the Lords of Imphras II. They have a few perks as a result of their position in the social strata (they can have an armed retinue etc.) but wield no direct authority in the realm. They are just like real world nobility in that respect.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Sightless
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Posted - 24 Apr 2013 :  05:25:11  Show Profile Send Sightless a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Let me begin by saying that I hope that you are well, George, and not overly busy. Id like to take a moment to provide some information, as it will helps set up my question a bit.

In the Year of the Deep Moon (1294 DR), the adventurer-prince Thaum plotted to advance his claim on Impiltur's crown. He secretly plotted to have King Lasilmbrar,
Queen Thelmara, and Crown Prince Imphras III assassinated. Although Prince Rilimbrar was also a target, he was the only one to escape his cousin's trap.
Rilimbrar's survival foiled Thaum's plot to place his father, Prince Kuskur, on the throne, but it did have the effect of elevating Rilinibrar to the title
of king and Kuskur to the title of crown prince (at least temporarily). As unaware of his son's involvement as everyone else was, Crown Prince Kuskur agreed
to return to Impiltur and serve as regent until Prince Rilimbrar came of age. Since Rilimbrar was likely to have sons of his own, there was little chance
that Thaum would ever inherit the crown.

With his father away and his doddering maternal grandfather on the throne of Telflamm, it was a simple matter for Prince Thaum to empty much of Telflamm's
treasury to hire an army of mercenaries. With his army and his only child, Imphras, in tow, Thaum sailed across the Easting Reach and sacked the city of
Sarshel with complete surprise. Thaum and his mercenaries then marched on the Tower of Filur and seized the throne of Impiltur. Regent Kuskur and King
Rilimbrar fled into hasty exile, but without access to Impiltur's treasury, they were unable to muster much of a fighting force to reclaim the throne.
Instead, Kuskur turned to Queen Ilione of Aglarond and requested her aid. Ilione sent her mysterious apprentice, known only as the Simbul, to dispatch
Thaum with magic, a mission she accomplished in short order.

With Thaum dead, his army of mercenaries melted away. Efforts by Thaum's son Imphras (later Imphras IV) to hold the throne himself came to naught, and King
Rilimbrar was restored to the throne in the Year of the Black Hound (1296 DR). Crown Prince Kuskur never returned to Impiltur, choosing instead to live
out his remaining few years in self-imposed exile in Velprintalar. His grandson Imphras was placed under house arrest in the royal tower at Filur, remaining
there even after he became Crown Prince Imphras IV.

My question is it possible that Prince Kuskur remarried while in exile? My reason for asking, is that Im setting up a 4e campaign involving several members with possible ties to thrown, and while Ive a few ideas on possible lines of succession, you seem to be the best authority on the subject and thought Id ask. I appreciate any info you can provide, respectfully, sightless.

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Lukas Kain
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Posted - 24 Apr 2013 :  17:36:41  Show Profile Send Lukas Kain a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are quite a few missing names in the history section that you quoted. I just finished putting together a family tree of the Heltharn dynasty last night and have a few blank entries. Mostly daughters of "him" and "her". This is a very good question for posterity's sake.
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George Krashos
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Posted - 25 Apr 2013 :  02:25:52  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm alway from home at the moment so don't have access to my notes. No Kuskur didn't remarry while in exile in Aglarond. He was very old and had no interest in fathering any further children that might bring yet more dishonour on him. Your reference to "thrown" appears to be a typo and should read Thaum. Thaum had a son - Imphras IV - and three confirmed bastards: a daughter fathered in Telflamm who was aged about eleven in 1294 DR and two sons born in 1295 and 1296 DR respectively in Impiltur. One of those boys, Harthaur, wasn't seen after the return of Rilimbrar and is thought to have been kept captive by one of a handful of noble families who were suspected of having a foot in both camps during the time of the Traitor Prince. The other, a strapping lad named Melegaun was taken by the mercenary "lord" Varandil to the lands of the Vast and the Moonsea and became a sellsword himself. He died in 1325 DR in a skirmish with the authorities of Melvaunt but is known to have fathered at least two children. They were low born and the Impilturian Crown has no knowledge of their or their offspring's whereabouts in the present day.

Hope this is helpful.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 25 Apr 2013 02:44:57
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Lukas Kain
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Posted - 26 May 2013 :  04:22:16  Show Profile Send Lukas Kain a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is something I've been looking into for a bit of time, but I couldn't find a straight answer on the topic. I understand that typically with undead who return to animation after the base creature dies (e.g. wight, mohrg), memory is lost, and any memories remaining are very foggy and incomplete. This seems to be the general rule with these sorts of undead, but then you have liches and vampires who retain their memories.

So my question is, would the Death Knight Imphras II recall his imperial past, or would he basically just be an unholy, seasoned bastion of martial, confused fury, able to train troops but not really know why or how he came to his abilities?

Now that I'm thinking about it, how do you think the Lords of Imphras II would react to the knowledge of his continued existence?
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George Krashos
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Posted - 26 May 2013 :  08:15:48  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For what it's worth, I've always considered Death Knights to be a rather special type of undead - each fairly unique in that their creation circumstances could and did vary significantly, thereby giving DMs wiggle room to do just about whatever they wanted with them.

In my Impiltur, the death knight Imbrar has only fleeting and vague recollections of his former self. His general disposition could best be described as melancholy - for it was dark despair and shame that drove his transformation (his last act as a living king was to flee the fight and leave his most trusted retainers and guards to fight on in a forlorn stand to buy him time to escape with devastating results) and he only ever regains some of his firebrand original personality when engaging in battle or planning for war.

Soneillon is careful to ensure that he does not dwell on his past life or gain an inkling as to what he was. She in fact has told him that he is a great king who was betrayed and had his throne usurped and that one day, he will lead forth armies to regain the kingdom that was taken away from him.

As to what the Lords of Imphras II would do if they obtained definitive proof that the "dread lord in the mountains" (as the death knight Imbrar is talked about in rumour and conjecture by the denizens of surrounding lands) was their lost king, they would likely consider it their holy obligation to end his undead torment and bring him the sweet release of real death. How they would in fact go about that however, is a much harder thing to work out.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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