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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe

Belgium
273 Posts

Posted - 03 Oct 2012 :  14:22:20  Show Profile Send Duneth Despana a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just stumbled upon this in DDGttU:

A libram entitled Mhuelosiun [[I think the RCR maybe messed up "Mhaelosian"... can anyone with a hardcopy confirm this?]] Mantles has recently been
offered for sale in the markets of Ooltul. This legendary
spell tome was penned in the years leading up to the
Crown vs. Scepter Wars between Hlondath and Cormanthyr
by the Mage Royal of Mhaelos, and is said to set out
the process for creating one or more of the legendary spell
mantles for which the Netherese arcanists were so
famous. While this value of this tome is inestimable,
acquiring the asking price is nearly impossible. It is said
that the would-be buyer must exchange the true name of
at least one of the Chosen of Mystra for this compendium.

Just thought I'd share.

« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2012 :  08:21:08  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That tidbit and Ed's article on elven magic in one of the Dragon Annuals formed the foundation of my mantle write-up. Tough to weave together, but I thought the lore stood up quite well in the end - the epic spellcasting mechanics? ... Hmmm.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe

148 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2012 :  05:11:53  Show Profile Send The Hidden Lord a Private Message  Reply with Quote
George,
How did Kossuth feel about being summoned to Faerun by the Raumvari?

How long was he on Faerun during the Great Conflagration?

By what mechanism did he leave Faerun?
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  11:25:07  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord

George,
How did Kossuth feel about being summoned to Faerun by the Raumvari?

How long was he on Faerun during the Great Conflagration?

By what mechanism did he leave Faerun?



I have touched on this in a previous post on one of Ed's threads. At that time I said:

The events of the Great Conflagration are noted in some detail in my entry in GHotR (p.55). Space did not permit me to go into the minutiae of every clash and battle but it can be said that the decade-long war brought devastation to both sides and realms. At the end, it can be observed that Narfell was "winning" but the final summoning of an avatar of Kossuth brought incredible destruction to the region. The avatar started its journey of destruction in present-day Thay, skirted the woodlands of Lethyr and moved into Narfell proper, trailing devastation in its wake and seemingly immune to attempts to return it from whence it came. It then turned east, avoiding Rashemen, and plunged into the grasslands of Raumathar bringing with it a firestorm of death that was only quelled when the avatar disappeared suddenly on the outskirts of ruined Winterkeep. To this day sages do not understand the reasons why Kossuth's avatar journeyed as it did or what compulsion drove it onward but in the words of the loremaster Eirolon of Procampur, "Fire is always inscrutable and hungry. Do not seek to understand it, but give it the healthy respect you would a dragon or an archdevil. Things are usually safer that way."

In terms of the "hard details", in my view Kossuth doesn't feel anything. In my vision of the elemental powers, they simply ... exist and are absolutely inscrutable and impenetrable. So how did he feel? Pretty much normal, I reckon.

Kossuth's trail of destruction took place over the course of about twenty or so days.

As to the mechanism of his unsummoning ... gee, that Winterkeep is a mysterious place, isn't it?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe

148 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  17:00:46  Show Profile Send The Hidden Lord a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Was Kossuth unsummoned, or did he leave by his own power/volition?
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe

148 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  04:08:40  Show Profile Send The Hidden Lord a Private Message  Reply with Quote
George, what was one, or were some, of the arcane breakthroughs or milestones that lead to the Raumvari cultural revolution that lead them from nomadic, hunter gatherers to reknowned battle-mages?
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4141 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  05:45:44  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey George, have you considered a compiled write-up of Tethyamar?

I would be really interested to see how you wove that together!

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  06:15:21  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Hidden Lord: I'll get back to you. Lots of stuff to think through.

@Dalor Darden: A "Ruins of Tethyamar" product has always been a secret dream of mine, although I'm not so naive as to think that I could actually write such a product with the job/time pressures I currently am under. I lack Ed's brilliance, Steven's conceptualisation skills and Eric's energy to ever write a full-fledged product. I'm good for "bits" ... which reminds me that I have a few to deliver to Eric this weekend.

Dwarves are my secret passion. Tolkien's take on them first stirred my imagination, and FR11 remains pretty much my favourite Realms product of all time. I'd love to see more in-print lore and info on them and hope that some of the "lesser subjects" will get a bit more love in the 5E Realms. We've done elves and drow to death and back. Time to let some other races shine.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe

148 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  22:58:44  Show Profile Send The Hidden Lord a Private Message  Reply with Quote
George, what was one, or were some, of the arcane breakthroughs or milestones that lead to the Raumvari cultural revolution that lead them from nomadic, hunter gatherers to reknowned battle-mages?
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4141 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  23:42:30  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord

George, what was one, or were some, of the arcane breakthroughs or milestones that lead to the Raumvari cultural revolution that lead them from nomadic, hunter gatherers to reknowned battle-mages?



Accidental double post?

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2012 :  00:27:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Hidden Lord - some of that was covered in the novel Frostfell, by Mark Sehestedt. It appears they started out with a druidic culture, but then were 'corrupted' by captured demon-binders (at least one, anyway).

So it looks like they went from a powerful nature-based type of magic and culture to something more mechanical, but that appears to have been a very late development*, so it was probably due to one of those 'military escalation' things. Both Raumathar and Narfell were Imaskari survivor states, and it stands to reason much of that knowledge was gleaned from their heritage . The Imaskari were called 'artificers', which means they were builders of arcane devices, which would have included automatons, and they were also consummate summoners (due to their knowledge of of the planes). Narfell & Raumathar choose to follow different paths, but they both had access to the same teachings.

Hopefully, someday George will be given the opportunity to string all the random bits together in an official product - there is a fascinating story going on there.


*I say this because their war machines are not even mentioned in the Frostfell novel, so that must have occurred after their initial slide into more insidious pursuits (which is covered by the novel).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Oct 2012 00:28:57
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2012 :  21:14:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey BUUUUUDDY...

LOL - you know when someone starts off that way they are going to ask for something.

I need a run-down on the inter-relationships of the Uthgardt/Rengardt and whatever other barbarinas were running around in the North at one time or another (like the Reghedmen, Snow people, Gur, Traell, Ice Hunters, Eraka, etc)

Maybe to keep it simple, just the relationships of those first two with the Netherese.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2012 :  02:48:54  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You'll have to pardon my ignorance, but where is the reference to "Traell" from?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2012 :  05:52:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its the name of the (rather primitive) tribal folk living around the Hartsvale area. The name was used in the Giant among Us novel by Troy Denning.

It could possibly be a giantish word for the Ice Hunters.

You, ignorant? Thats a laugh.

Very few people make me feel 'FR inadequate'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Oct 2012 05:53:25
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2012 :  12:58:42  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord

George, what was one, or were some, of the arcane breakthroughs or milestones that lead to the Raumvari cultural revolution that lead them from nomadic, hunter gatherers to reknowned battle-mages?



The horsemen of Raumathar were vassals of Imaskar for a lengthy period and to describe them as "nomadic, hunter-gatherers" is incorrect. To give you both a fantasy and real world touchstone, they were more "Rohan" than they were "Sioux".

In terms of magic use, the Raumathari were not big creators of magic items, but enthusiastic magpies, stripping Imaskari outposts and settlements of much of their useful magic and sending expeditions into present-day Murghom and a few even into Raurin itself seeking even more.

Sorcery was "in the blood" as it were, and it is thought that the clans and tribes that were given leadership positions under the aegis of the Imaskari were chosen for this talent. The origins of this magical legacy is thought to be the great dragon kingdoms of millennia past, and there is evidence in some still-existing draconic artifacts [in the archeological, not magical sense] of at least one dragon kingdom in the area where humans were slaves to draconic rulers. The most notable of these is Gaerthalin's Skull in the Spiderhaunt Peaks, named for the human explorer who first brought word of it to the lands of the Inner Sea in the early 1300s DR, but known to locals for centuries as Argartarl, the "Dragonhead" in a local tongue.

Gaerthalin's Skull is the petrified skull of a great copper wyrm, etched with draconic runes and seemingly a record of a now lost dragon kingdom that existed in the region before the Crown Wars. The remaining runes - for the elements have erased much of its surface - do not name the dragon ruler of this land (thought by some to be 'Kerlathar' and others 'Dyarlintul' - both names are found on the skull, but without context) but a section gives details of his servants and the rare gift of magic that was sometimes granted by the ingesting of some of his blood.

In the time of Raumathar's conflict with Narfell, there were two "watershed" moments that created and contributed to the legend of their storied "battlemages".

I note that "battlemage" is a clumsy term, first fostered by the scholar Galros of Candlekeep, whose field of study was the lands east of the Inner Sea. Galros was a painstaking and thorough archeologist, but his linguistic expertise was less than stellar. He derived the term "battlemage" from the word "tarannaerl", which was one of the Raumathari terms for its warriors. While "tar" was indeed "battle" in the Raumathari tongue, and "naer" was a word for "user of magic", the term in fact is better translated as "magically enspelled (naerl) battle champion (taran)" and was used specifically for the elite warriors handpicked and trained to infiltrate Nar strongholds and shatter their wards and bindings so as to unleash demonic servitors on their erstwhile masters. It is known that a team of tarannaerl managed to gain entrance into the Citadel Of Conjurers in the last days of the Great Conflagration, undoing many of the spell wards there and making the place untenable for humans thereby robbing the Nar of a last great bastion in which to make a final stand.

The first watershed moment was the accession of Vayloss as Arkhan of Raumathar in -605 DR. Vayloss was a powerful sorcerer and the first to actively harness this talent in his people. He established "elanaer", which were the Raumathari equivalent of wizard schools where sorcerous talent was identified in the young and fostered and refined. Over time, the "elanaer" divided along elemental school lines, creating four separate groupings devoted to fire, earth, air and water respectively. The "elanaer" were responsible for training mages for battle and created a cadre of spellcasters who were fit and ready for military service in times of war.

The second watershed moment was in the reign of Tallos II, when an Imaskari trove of construct magic and spell lore was discovered in the Shalhoond. Thought to be the work of a cabal of wizards led by the Artificer Wardde, this gift of magic was embraced by the Raumathari and for the first time in their history, the organised study of magic was promoted. The wizard class flourished and grew in this period throughout the kingdom and much in the way of resources was devoted to this specialised area of wizardry. The construct army that were built in the reign of Tallos IV only just failed to give Raumathar victory in the Great Conflagration, when it was unleashed upon the armies of Narfell.

-- George Krashos


"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2012 :  22:19:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great lore, Krash - I'll have to add all of that to my 'History of The Taan'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4141 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2012 :  00:11:30  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Awesome stuff! It gives me far more insight into exactly how the Witches came to be as well!

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1442 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2012 :  02:29:04  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
very nice! :)
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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
741 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2012 :  20:46:47  Show Profile Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Woah, George, wow! Just came up on this recently, great stuff!

Has someone compiled this thread for ease of download yet!?
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2012 :  22:18:24  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Great stuff, indeed! Thanks, George.

Every beginning has an end.
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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
741 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2012 :  13:43:04  Show Profile Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Checked the site, no PDF compilation of this but I thought I read someone had one...?
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2680 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2012 :  04:22:49  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have a WotC account, but I don't go on that site much, and still being somewhat new to this site, I'm wondering: does WotC see the context of these forums? I want to share my thoughts, but it would feel kind of weird to me to post the same thing on both sites.

Sweet water and light laughter
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2012 :  05:15:37  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My understanding is that people from WotC do check out Candlekeep from time to time. More so I think in terms of gauging the fanbase on developments in the setting and what people "want" rather than looking at the fan-created lore that can be found here.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2680 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2012 :  05:20:06  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All right, thank you for the information and prompt response

Sweet water and light laughter
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11211 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2012 :  18:19:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord

George, what was one, or were some, of the arcane breakthroughs or milestones that lead to the Raumvari cultural revolution that lead them from nomadic, hunter gatherers to reknowned battle-mages?



The horsemen of Raumathar were vassals of Imaskar for a lengthy period and to describe them as "nomadic, hunter-gatherers" is incorrect. To give you both a fantasy and real world touchstone, they were more "Rohan" than they were "Sioux".

In terms of magic use, the Raumathari were not big creators of magic items, but enthusiastic magpies, stripping Imaskari outposts and settlements of much of their useful magic and sending expeditions into present-day Murghom and a few even into Raurin itself seeking even more.

Sorcery was "in the blood" as it were, and it is thought that the clans and tribes that were given leadership positions under the aegis of the Imaskari were chosen for this talent. The origins of this magical legacy is thought to be the great dragon kingdoms of millennia past, and there is evidence in some still-existing draconic artifacts [in the archeological, not magical sense] of at least one dragon kingdom in the area where humans were slaves to draconic rulers. The most notable of these is Gaerthalin's Skull in the Spiderhaunt Peaks, named for the human explorer who first brought word of it to the lands of the Inner Sea in the early 1300s DR, but known to locals for centuries as Argartarl, the "Dragonhead" in a local tongue.

Gaerthalin's Skull is the petrified skull of a great copper wyrm, etched with draconic runes and seemingly a record of a now lost dragon kingdom that existed in the region before the Crown Wars. The remaining runes - for the elements have erased much of its surface - do not name the dragon ruler of this land (thought by some to be 'Kerlathar' and others 'Dyarlintul' - both names are found on the skull, but without context) but a section gives details of his servants and the rare gift of magic that was sometimes granted by the ingesting of some of his blood.

In the time of Raumathar's conflict with Narfell, there were two "watershed" moments that created and contributed to the legend of their storied "battlemages".

I note that "battlemage" is a clumsy term, first fostered by the scholar Galros of Candlekeep, whose field of study was the lands east of the Inner Sea. Galros was a painstaking and thorough archeologist, but his linguistic expertise was less than stellar. He derived the term "battlemage" from the word "tarannaerl", which was one of the Raumathari terms for its warriors. While "tar" was indeed "battle" in the Raumathari tongue, and "naer" was a word for "user of magic", the term in fact is better translated as "magically enspelled (naerl) battle champion (taran)" and was used specifically for the elite warriors handpicked and trained to infiltrate Nar strongholds and shatter their wards and bindings so as to unleash demonic servitors on their erstwhile masters. It is known that a team of tarannaerl managed to gain entrance into the Citadel Of Conjurers in the last days of the Great Conflagration, undoing many of the spell wards there and making the place untenable for humans thereby robbing the Nar of a last great bastion in which to make a final stand.

The first watershed moment was the accession of Vayloss as Arkhan of Raumathar in -605 DR. Vayloss was a powerful sorcerer and the first to actively harness this talent in his people. He established "elanaer", which were the Raumathari equivalent of wizard schools where sorcerous talent was identified in the young and fostered and refined. Over time, the "elanaer" divided along elemental school lines, creating four separate groupings devoted to fire, earth, air and water respectively. The "elanaer" were responsible for training mages for battle and created a cadre of spellcasters who were fit and ready for military service in times of war.

The second watershed moment was in the reign of Tallos II, when an Imaskari trove of construct magic and spell lore was discovered in the Shalhoond. Thought to be the work of a cabal of wizards led by the Artificer Wardde, this gift of magic was embraced by the Raumathari and for the first time in their history, the organised study of magic was promoted. The wizard class flourished and grew in this period throughout the kingdom and much in the way of resources was devoted to this specialised area of wizardry. The construct army that were built in the reign of Tallos IV only just failed to give Raumathar victory in the Great Conflagration, when it was unleashed upon the armies of Narfell.

-- George Krashos






Hey George,

Please understand before I start that I like a lot of what you wrote in the above. However, there's always room for improvement, so I'd like to take a moment and maybe posit some changes.

There was something more to the term Raumathari battlemage and the fact that their arcane casters were more militant. This can be seen in the Raumathari Battlemage prestige class. I'd recommend that it be that they developed some of the "alternative" classes we see in later 3rd edition lore (warmages, duskblades) and that the spellsword and eldritch knight prestige classes were more common.

I like the idea of the breaking into the separate schools of magic along the various elements. Given that their culture was one of iron workers rather than the bronze workers of the nearby Empires of Mulhorand and Unther (per Old Empires) they may have developed a fascination with metallurgy. The school of earth may have focused on this, or they may have followed more eastern lore like wu-jens and had a school for metal. With the fall of empire, this lore may have been lost. Similarly, they may have had a school of wood like the wu-jen. Given that the Raumathari weren't (that I see in any lore I've read mind you) especially fluent in the element of air, it would maybe make sense that they did break things down along those lines (earth, fire, metal, water and wood) rather than the traditional Western views. Or they could have had a blending of Eastern and Western views of elementalism and air was a 6th school.

Each of these "elemental schools" might have had a patron or patrons that were revered (Kossuth for fire, Grumbar or Chauntea/Bhalla for earth, Mielikki/Khelliara for wood, Istishia or maybe Chauntea/Bhalla for water, and maybe a deity LIKE gond for metal). Mystra/the Hidden One would be revered by most schools as well.

Also, perhaps some of the "elemental schools" were literally decimated in the great conflagration and that's why the witches of Rashemen that survived on "to preserve Raumathari lore" didn't have this subset of lore to pass on. For instance, the schools of fire and metal may have been destroyed... but survivors of the schools of water, earth, and wood (and possibly air) lived on. Perhaps some of the lore found in Thay came from old Raumathari school of fire ruins. Similarly, perhaps a lot of the construct and combat mage lore was found between the schools of earth and metal.

One of the things that always struck me as odd was how the Raumathari had these odd deity names compared to the rest of the realms. It makes me wonder.... did they have their own deities who were subsumed by Chauntea, Mielikki, and Mystra? Given that none of their nearest neighbors (Narfell, Mulhorand, and Unther) were worshipping Faerunian deities, this seems highly plausible that the Faerunian Pantheon was limited at the time to the Northwestern realms, west of the inner sea.

I do like the idea that the "battlemages" weren't necessarily wizard/sorcerors exclusively. I could definitely see the Tome of battle schools that taught

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Sightless
Senior Scribe

USA
608 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2012 :  01:34:58  Show Profile Send Sightless a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
... but I do have a question for George while I'm here: I'm curious as to what you've been working on Realms-wise lately. Anything you can share with us?



Working on? Nothing of substance. My hobby predilections wax and wane over periods and my energies have been focused in other areas of late.

I'd long toyed with updating my Impiltur article for 4E but with the announcement of the next iteration, I've definitely shelved that project. I want to see where the Realms goes before I commit time and energy to further development work. I learned that lesson with my "Mantles" work which I finished on the cusp of the announcement of 4E ...

I do find that I need a kickstart though, so if anyone wants to ask any questions here about ... well, just about anything Realmsian, I'd be more than happy to do some weaving.

-- George Krashos




I would love your opinion on my Thay work once I'm finished with it. Point out where you think things can be improved, etc. No pressure though, if you don't have the time I understand. I'm about a third of the way through.

We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.

Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2012 :  04:36:08  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hey George,

Please understand before I start that I like a lot of what you wrote in the above. However, there's always room for improvement, so I'd like to take a moment and maybe posit some changes.



No offence, but I'm just making this stuff up as I go along. Your 'improvements' are the stuff you are making up to go along with and side by side with my made up stuff. Mileages vary, as you know.

quote:

<BIG SNIP> of some very interesting points.



My first response is that I'm not a mechanics guy. In setting out my musings, I didn't once think about the Battlemage prestige class or what type of class battlemages might have been. That's stuff I care nothing about. I like to provide lore and flavour. To be honest, my post was more about fudging just what battlemages might be, than stating what they were. The discourse on the translation of "tarannaerl" was supposed to (obliquely) allow people to have wiggle room as to just what constituted a battlemage from a number of interpretations.

As to your comments re the "elemental schools", your observations and ideas are just as valid as mine. This is all fan musing, after all. But I like to keep things basic, so I go with the traditional view re what elementalist magic might be all about. You're free to come up with the variations you have, and they are just as valid.

The point you make about the gods is also an interesting one. I toyed a while back with mapping out the various pantheons of Faerun in a regional context and drawing comparisons and establishing cross-naming/worship of deities. That fell by the wayside when I decided upon my own unique take on FR deities, which is simply that the "individual" gods are akin to roper-like pseudopods from a central core of "godness" that is best and most simply described as Ao. Mortal worship draws out a line/thread of "godness" from this mass and gives it shape and purpose. It is the worship that shapes the god, not the god that shapes the worship. So someone in the middle of the Endless Wastes, praying for rain, might have that prayer answered. And along with that might come an insight into that deity and perhaps a name (that name being tied into something that the worshipper understands or has meaning to it/him/her) and an idea of what that "god" is all about.

This in my view better encapsulates the "god x was god y all the time" trope that has developed in the Realms of late (and which I am a huge fan of) and provides a better explanation as to why worshippers can be worshipping different "gods" but actually be worshipping the same "god". That same "god" is really a worship-driven manifestation of deific power and purpose, which is moulded and shaped by the worship that brings it into being. Over time, the deific "images" created by such worship will crystallize into what appear to be individual gods, so when people in an area pray for a good harvest, their worship is channeled to an entity that is best labelled as Chauntea. A thousand miles away, that same type of worship is channeled to the Earthmother. Yet another thousand miles away that worship is channeled into Bobo the Clown God. It varies and it depends.

So yes, I agree that the Raumathari religion may have worshipped "different gods" but when it's distilled down in my book, all worship of, for example nature stuff, is worship that draws upon the deific mass of godpower and godliness that is attuned to such worship and produces any number of deific responses (avatars, manifestations etc) that mortal worshippers attribute to "Chauntea", "the Earthmother" or "Bobo the Clown". As such, I've moved right away from anthropomorphising the gods. Those mortals who "become gods" (ala Midnight, Velsharoon and Kelemvor) aren't mortal as soon as they ascend. Their appearance, memories and experiences are taken over and used by the deific "god-mass". They are used as a conduit to project deific power and whilst retaining an outward appearance of independence (as all the individual gods do), they are nothing more than an outward skin for that conglomerate of deific, worshipper-fueled power.

Anyway, enough of my metaphysical BS. Thanks for posting sleyvas. As you can see, it made me think, as your posts always do.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2012 :  05:43:49  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

the "individual" gods are akin to roper-like pseudopods from a central core of "godness" that is best and most simply described as Ao.


Ao was Ghaunadaur all along.

I think official Realmslore meshes well with the idea of Ao as a central godness. Kinda like the idea of a Source that's used in various non-d&d stories/films.

I like a lot of the ideas here... they shall be mashed and distilled... or slooped and blorped.

Thanks to both of you, and everyone else who hashes out their ideas on here.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2012 :  06:14:54  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
I would love your opinion on my Thay work once I'm finished with it. Point out where you think things can be improved, etc. No pressure though, if you don't have the time I understand. I'm about a third of the way through.



Happy to provide some feedback. Where can I find your "Thay stuff"?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6473 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2012 :  05:12:58  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Hey BUUUUUDDY...

LOL - you know when someone starts off that way they are going to ask for something.



You're lucky I like it when people ask me for Realms stuff.

quote:

I need a run-down on the inter-relationships of the Uthgardt/Rengardt and whatever other barbarinas were running around in the North at one time or another (like the Reghedmen, Snow people, Gur, Traell, Ice Hunters, Eraka, etc)

Maybe to keep it simple, just the relationships of those first two with the Netherese.



Okay, first things first, you are effectively asking me for a history of all human barbarians west of the Moonsea from the time humans first gathered into what could be described as "tribes" till about 500 or so DR. Big ask Markustay!

That said, much of the information you are after already exists, the majority of it gathered in GHotR.

What is clear from the outset is that apart from Netheril (and that is a special case in itself) the lack of any great human kingdoms in the North till the time of Delimbiyran, the Kingdom of Man, in the 600s DR means that significant human groupings manifested themselves as city-states (Ascalhorn, Slverymoon, Illusk et. al.) or as wandering tribal groups (Uthgardt, etc.).

That fact means that there wasn't really a significant amount of "interrelationships" between the humans of the North.

Going back to the "beginning" also presents some problems. If humans are one of the Creator Races, then they have been around for a long time. I've always been of the view that giants and dragons enslaved humans for millenia but the time of these great races was over by -24,000 DR or so with the advent of the First Flowering.

Netheril doesn't come into being until -3859 DR, so we essentially have a 20,000 year period when the history of humans is undetailed. I don't propose to fill that gap in here.

However, in the North geographical region, I'm of the view that humans (basically of Ulutiun stock) eked out an existence amidst all the 'big boys' (i.e. the dragons, giants, elves and dwarves) in isolated pockets throughout the great mountain range known as the Spine of the World. As the threat of the dragons and the giants receded (and correspondingly the threat from their greatest local competitor - the orcs - increased) these humans began a slow migration south from the mountains into more temperate lands.

Of these human groupings, the most well known are the Ice Hunters who clustered along the western coast of the Trackless Sea as south as the Neverwinter Wood (then the elven realm of Illefarn) and inland up to the site of present day Mirabar. The elves of Illefarn kept these humans in check but did not do anything to them other than prevent them coming into elven lands. If anything, the humans were 'penned in' in this region for the elven woodlands were much more extensive than they are in the present-day Realms and it is likely that the forests covered the entire area south of the Ice Lakes save for the region of the Crags.

It is also possible that other "Ice Hunter" human groupings clustered in areas where the elves and dwarves did not. As such, the Evermoors may have been the site of human habitation in those distant times also. As is obvious, humans were relegated to marginal lands.

To the east, the land was less wooded and mountainous and in these open areas - notwithstanding the everpresent danger of orcs and dragons - humans prospered. The taming of horses was the greatest achievement in this time and these humans became the Rengarth barbarians. I consider that all humans of this area were Rengarth, with offshoots from these tribal groupings who founded permanent and semi-permanent dwellings and engaged in agriculture becoming the precursors of the realms of Netheril and Thaeravel and no doubt a host of unknown others.

We have now reached recorded canon history. GHotR tracks the development of human civilisation from the time of Netheril to the present. The genesis of the Reghedmen is dated at -2,100 DR. The Traell of Hartsvale come to their lands in -325 DR.

The relationship of the Eraka, the barbarians of the Ride, and the humans of the North in very early times is not set out in the canon sources other than the comment in GHotR at p.10. I consider that as before, there were humans here who were enslaved by dragons and giants. Those that survived created tribal groupings and I consider that at least one grouping retained enough "civilization" from their likely former giant masters to take over and maintain the Citadel of the Raven fortresses (that they had likely built for their giant masters) for a few centuries before some enemy or cataclysm brought that realm to an end.

Survivors likely coalesced into nomadic barbarian tribes, which in the -400s DR or so received the gift of horses from Rengarth barbarians travelling west to escape the depredations of the phaerimm whose 'lifedrain' magics had destroyed the Narrow Sea and their ancestral grasslands. I note that "Races of Faerun" (p.108) states that the Ride barbarians had the Angardt as their ancestors while the Tunlar barbarians had the Rengarth as their ancestors. I consider that this is an error as the Netheril boxed set maps make it clear that the Rengarth were the northern tribal grouping, while the Angardt were the southern.

The Gur come into the equation last, and "Races of Faerun" at p.106 provides information as to how they arrived in the Heartlands from -200 DR. The exact mechanism of the move isn't set out, but I'm thinking that this was another portal migration.

I hope this has been helpful. If you are after anything else, let me know.

-- George Krashos


"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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