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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2008 :  08:01:12  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I doubt any designers are going to be able to shed much light on the subject of the Dawn Cataclysm. It's largely supposed to be an event that we know little about. And what little we do actually know about the Dawn Cataclysm has been revealed in both Faiths & Avatars and Faiths & Pantheons.

We do know that Murdane was killed during this event, and it was also around this time that the division of Tyche occured -- resulting in the creation of both Tymora and Beshaba. However, it's been said that this division had little to do with the actual Dawn Cataclysm.

As for when, that's largely unknown as well. Based on some *facts* however, various possible dates have been thrown into the debate. It was dated once [161 DR], in a poster handed out a GenCon -- the seriously flawed [and now largely ignored] "Netheril Timeline" handout as I recall. Another possibility suggests that it occured somewhere between 700 DR and 712 DR.

A third option, and the one I'm currently leaning toward, is the theory put forth by Eric Boyd. He first suggested that the Dawn Cataclysm happened outside the timestream and, thus, cannot be properly dated.

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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2008 :  09:12:34  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I doubt any designers are going to be able to shed much light on the subject of the Dawn Cataclysm. It's largely supposed to be an event that we know little about. And what little we do actually know about the Dawn Cataclysm has been revealed in both Faiths & Avatars and Faiths & Pantheons.

We do know that Murdane was killed during this event, and it was also around this time that the division of Tyche occured -- resulting in the creation of both Tymora and Beshaba. However, it's been said that this division had little to do with the actual Dawn Cataclysm.

As for when, that's largely unknown as well. Based on some *facts* however, various possible dates have been thrown into the debate. It was dated once [161 DR], in a poster handed out a GenCon -- the seriously flawed [and now largely ignored] "Netheril Timeline" handout as I recall. Another possibility suggests that it occured somewhere between 700 DR and 712 DR.

A third option, and the one I'm currently leaning toward, is the theory put forth by Eric Boyd. He first suggested that the Dawn Cataclysm happened outside the timestream and, thus, cannot be properly dated.




Outside the timestream would make sense... but then, if that's the case, why don't we have both Lathander and Amaunator around all the time, along with this mysterious dusk god? That's the way I've gone in my Realms; all three coexist, and I gave Cyric the dusk aspect to legitimize his "Dark Sun" title. The assignment is at least symbolically appropriate, I think.

Edit: Just to refresh; this might have gotten lost in my frenzy of follow-up posts:

quote:
Second, I have a question about both geography and history: Is the River Ammath on the eastern border of Dambrath connected in any way with the family of Saeval Ammath, the elf of Myth Drannor who raised and trained Garnetallisar? I'm thinking it's all coincidence, but you never know...


Thanks!

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 07 Nov 2008 01:07:47
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6624 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  01:22:42  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They tried to date the DC in the FRCS 3E timeline. Eric and I got rid of it. The reason for that decision was that the realmslore sources were in conflict over the date and difficult to reconcile (being spread over the better part of 8 or so centuries) and mainly because the DC was a purely immortal event - that is, it had no human input other than mortals at some stage realising that there had been godly changes and shifts/movements.

Given Ed's attitude to matters relating solely to the gods (simply put, humans can never, ever know with exactitude what is, has or might happen to the gods save only if it impacts upon the mortal world directly - ala the Time of Troubles) we thought that keeping the event in the godly realms allowed DMs flexibility to state where and when the effects of the DC were visited upon Faerūn.

In other words, Neverwinter might have gone on to worship Tyche for centuries before they decided that 'she' was gone. Followers of Lathander in Halruaa might have preached 'a time of change' centuries after the DC actually happened in godly time when they got wind of what might be happening while their brethren in Impiltur may have gone through the same religious revelation a few hundred years before them, etc. etc.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 07 Nov 2008 01:23:28
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36773 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  01:42:39  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

They tried to date the DC in the FRCS 3E timeline.


Well, I know that not everyone shares my opinion on the matter, but it seems to me that the line about the schism in Tyche's church on page 264 pretty much nails down the time. I know that mortals aren't going to know when exactly something happened, but I also find it unlikely that after Tyche's split, the luck sisters would have continued granting spells in her name. I think it's only logical that they'd very quickly start granting spells under their own names.

The blurb on page 264 says the schism in the church happened in 8th century DR. And since we had been told, more than once before, that the Dawn Cataclysm presaged the fall of Myth Drannor, that gives a very narrow timespan for that schism.

I'm curious, though, about the bit you and Eric omitted. Can (or will) you say when it was? Failing that, can you at least say if it happened in that brief timespan (700DR-712 or 714DR) that I think is the right time?

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6624 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  04:30:37  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be honest, I can't recall the date they gave it and my FRCS 3E files were lost in a HD meltdown.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36773 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  06:31:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

To be honest, I can't recall the date they gave it and my FRCS 3E files were lost in a HD meltdown.

-- George Krashos




Agh! My thirst for knowledge is thwarted by gremlins!

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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  07:53:46  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

<snip> The blurb on page 264 says the schism in the church happened in 8th century DR. And since we had been told, more than once before, that the Dawn Cataclysm presaged the fall of Myth Drannor, that gives a very narrow timespan for that schism.

I'm curious, though, about the bit you and Eric omitted. Can (or will) you say when it was? Failing that, can you at least say if it happened in that brief timespan (700DR-712 or 714DR) that I think is the right time?



Wooly: I don't know about the missing bit referred to by George, but the range you're citing is the time frame I would use, from my readings of the Realmslore. I'd like to get the conflicting time frames for the DC all assembled into one place with citations; I don't have any of my pre-3E lore to reference right now, or I'd happily do the early lookups myself. I don't recall any conflicts within 3E material for the date. The 161DR date referenced by The Sage is clearly but it's interesting that the sidebar referring to the DC in the GHotR (page 64) refers to a tome written in DR 760 (which is consistent) but is placed within the GH near DR 161 (DR 163 is at the top of the facing page; nothing at all is noted for DR 161 itself). That in itself is enough to make one stop and

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36773 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  14:51:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If I remember correctly, I was told that the placement of that blurb in the Grand History was not an indicator of when the event happened.

That blurb was a grand disappointment for me, since -- as it is already well-established -- I've never been satisfied with the official line on why it can't be pinned down.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2008 :  14:56:43  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And, remember also, that the aforementioned 161 DR dating was considered part of the largely flawed Netheril timeline. Thus, I wouldn't put much stock in that year reference either.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2008 :  23:21:04  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Agreed... I was just amused by the coincidence of the placement of the blurb in the GHotR.

On another note: I wasn't sure where to ask this question after getting my response from Brian James, so I'll post it here:

quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

Brian, my question is related to the GHotR: What is going to happen to the NDAs on all that (presumably now obsolete) pre-Spellplague lore if DDi is concentrating on post-Spellplague content? My focus here is on the Cormyr royal/noble lineage document that I understand is in the care of Brian "Garen Thal" Cortijo. I've been driving him crazy with questions for a couple of weeks now, and my inquiries on your Feedback scroll and on the WotC site (where I am known as FrustratedRealmsFan) have not stimulated a reply as yet. I would like to see pre-Spellplague lore under obsolete NDAs (such as the Ironfang Keep material that you did such a great job with) released in download form on the Wizards website, and I would be willing to pay for such pre-Spellplague lore on a per-download basis; making it available through DDi will simply cause me to lose interest in the lore, rather than think about subscribing to DDi. Besides which, it is my understanding that DDi is concentrating its Realms focus on post-Spellplague (or at least post-1385) lore, and I have no interest in canonical lore from that time period. There is money to be made by Wizards in the old lore, and such old lore is one of two ways that it will be my money; the other way, of course, is a Realms reset to 1375 or earlier, but that's not happening in my lifetime, I suspect. Hopefully this material will come to light soon, one way or another... and by "light" I don't mean open flame...



quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

Jakk, as a freelance designer I have no power to overturn NDAs I'm afraid. Except under very special circumstances it's unlikely you'll see any articles which focus on the previous era. Having said that, I try to include as much edition neutral lore as possible in my articles. That's the best I can offer under the current circumstances.


quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

Thanks for the quick response anyway. I'm not really looking for any "new" material; I would just like to see the previously-written stuff get released; I'm happy with downloadable text files, even, although I'm happier to pay for it if it's in a nicely-formatted Word or PDF document.



All I really want is some tasty, well-seasoned (pre-Spellplague), substantial lore (preferably about Cormyr and/or the High Forest, but in particular the Royal Lineage of Cormyr) that doesn't involve DDi.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 08 Nov 2008 23:21:50
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Returnip
Learned Scribe

220 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2020 :  18:50:48  Show Profile Send Returnip a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This question might be for Gwendolyn F.M. Kestrel, but if anyone else is in the know I'd be happy for the information no matter the source.

I have tried to figure this out, but I give up:

What and where is Cantlowe Library Archive? :)

If you can't say, please at least tell me if I'm close in my speculations here:

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?whichpage=1&TOPIC_ID=3850#538271

On the other hand you have different fingers.

Edited by - Returnip on 29 Dec 2020 21:37:44
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2284 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2020 :  05:41:55  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Returnip,

Hopefully we'll find out. I sent an email seeking that information. Here's to hoping we get a really great and interesting response. Probably after the holidays though if one comes.

Best regards,






Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe

467 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2020 :  02:33:44  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm just going to piggy-back on this thread bump and say I have two simple questions..

>What was Ghaunadaur's Garden in the Pit of Jhaam supposed to be? (Underdark)

>What is the history of Gormauth Souldrinker and the connection between Ghaunadaur and Gargauth? (City of Splendor, Demihuman Deities)

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:


https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com

T_P_T

Edited by - PattPlays on 24 Dec 2020 02:39:14
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6624 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2020 :  06:00:57  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

I'm just going to piggy-back on this thread bump and say I have two simple questions..

>What was Ghaunadaur's Garden in the Pit of Jhaam supposed to be? (Underdark)

>What is the history of Gormauth Souldrinker and the connection between Ghaunadaur and Gargauth? (City of Splendor, Demihuman Deities)



It's not Ghaunadaur's Garden, it's G'duar's Garden. I'm not sure what your question is really asking, but it's an adventure site. Who or what G'duar is and his connection - if any - with Ghaunadaur have never been revealed.

Gormauth Souldrinker was listed as an alias of Ghaunadaur in "Drow of the Underdark" (2E). Where that alias arose and where it was used have never been explored in published Realmslore.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe

467 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2020 :  06:40:48  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

I'm just going to piggy-back on this thread bump and say I have two simple questions..

>What was Ghaunadaur's Garden in the Pit of Jhaam supposed to be? (Underdark)

>What is the history of Gormauth Souldrinker and the connection between Ghaunadaur and Gargauth? (City of Splendor, Demihuman Deities)



It's not Ghaunadaur's Garden, it's G'duar's Garden. I'm not sure what your question is really asking, but it's an adventure site. Who or what G'duar is and his connection - if any - with Ghaunadaur have never been revealed.

Gormauth Souldrinker was listed as an alias of Ghaunadaur in "Drow of the Underdark" (2E). Where that alias arose and where it was used have never been explored in published Realmslore.

-- George Krashos



In Waterdeep: City of Splendor there is a lone altar at the bottom of a hidden pit in one of the areas listed. The altar is a cursed trap item that is described as being attributed to "Gormauth Souldrinker", and the lore placed therein says that the title was once used by Gargauth as an alias.
In second edition, Ghaunadaur is listed as having Gargauth as an enemy without any explanation.
That's the connection I have been hunting.

As for G's Garden, does something really count as an adventure location when all that is said about it is a name? Which in my opinion must have been shortened to fit the map it was published in somehow. There is a small colored section of a massive map only explained as a "chasm" and nothing else. The Pit of Jhaam and the Garden appear nowhere in the very book that they debut in. I just wonder if there is unfulfilled storytelling that was created and scrapped some time in development of that Underdark 3rd edition book. It seems that the map must have been made early on, and these two points of interest were cut for space in the book. Someone wrote them in and must have had at least a paragraph about one or both of them, and I wonder if anyone who worked on it remembers. As for Ghaunadaur and Gargauth, the fact that Gargauth is listed as an enemy with no explanation had gripped me all year, especially with the instance in City of Splendor.

EDIT: Oh come on, I swore I ctrl f'd this page months ago! (Details on the adventure site of Gdaur's garden) I think I must have blended my memories of Gdaur's Garden with my more hopeless research on the Pit of Jhaam. You always have to be ready to humble yourself and correct mistakes, as always.
https://www.realmshelps.net/faerun/underdark/dungeons.shtml

Thank you for helping me double check my research, Gdaur's garden *is* described and mapped. Time to correct some mental notes..
Still hyper sus of Gargauth and Gormauth Souldrinker and the Pit of Jhaam.

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:


https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com

T_P_T

Edited by - PattPlays on 24 Dec 2020 06:50:18
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6624 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2020 :  22:46:53  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
In Waterdeep: City of Splendor there is a lone altar at the bottom of a hidden pit in one of the areas listed. The altar is a cursed trap item that is described as being attributed to "Gormauth Souldrinker", and the lore placed therein says that the title was once used by Gargauth as an alias.
In second edition, Ghaunadaur is listed as having Gargauth as an enemy without any explanation.
That's the connection I have been hunting.



Well, if I really wanted to play with your head, I'd tell you that the "Gargauth" reference in CoS:W was not the deity that Eric Boyd submitted in his pre-edit turnover. But I wouldn't do that to you.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36773 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2020 :  23:10:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
In Waterdeep: City of Splendor there is a lone altar at the bottom of a hidden pit in one of the areas listed. The altar is a cursed trap item that is described as being attributed to "Gormauth Souldrinker", and the lore placed therein says that the title was once used by Gargauth as an alias.
In second edition, Ghaunadaur is listed as having Gargauth as an enemy without any explanation.
That's the connection I have been hunting.



Well, if I really wanted to play with your head, I'd tell you that the "Gargauth" reference in CoS:W was not the deity that Eric Boyd submitted in his pre-edit turnover. But I wouldn't do that to you.

-- George Krashos



I'm thinking on the idea that Gormauth Souldrinker was once a separate entity, maybe serving one power, but then subsumed by the other.

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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2058 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2020 :  05:19:00  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As George points out, I turned in Garagos. Gargauth was published. But I meant Ghaunadaur.

Sigh, my brain must have been truly scrambled. But then if George had been properly checking and not coasting, I would have caught it. So it's George's fault.

The question for your campaign is whether to go with Ghaunadauar or Gargauth, who is trying to steal the Gormauth aspect.

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/

Edited by - ericlboyd on 25 Dec 2020 05:19:32
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe

467 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2020 :  06:12:48  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

As George points out, I turned in Garagos. Gargauth was published. But I meant Ghaunadaur.

Sigh, my brain must have been truly scrambled. But then if George had been properly checking and not coasting, I would have caught it. So it's George's fault.

The question for your campaign is whether to go with Ghaunadauar or Gargauth, who is trying to steal the Gormauth aspect.

--Eric



Wait- canon?
Holy crap.. I'm going to need to take some serious time to re-calibrate my realms. Er, your realms.
Gosh, this forum is magical! There is no better feeling than the clarification of miscommunication. ^-^ A Christmas miracle indeed. Now I get to research Garagos and endlessly dissect this entire conversation.

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:


https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com

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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3277 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2020 :  09:32:02  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

As George points out, I turned in Garagos. Gargauth was published. But I meant Ghaunadaur.

Sigh, my brain must have been truly scrambled. But then if George had been properly checking and not coasting, I would have caught it. So it's George's fault.

The question for your campaign is whether to go with Ghaunadauar or Gargauth, who is trying to steal the Gormauth aspect.

--Eric


Tell us how you really feel Eric!

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep

Edited by - Brimstone on 25 Dec 2020 09:32:21
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2020 :  16:28:41  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

As George points out, I turned in Garagos. Gargauth was published. But I meant Ghaunadaur.

Sigh, my brain must have been truly scrambled. But then if George had been properly checking and not coasting, I would have caught it. So it's George's fault.

The question for your campaign is whether to go with Ghaunadauar or Gargauth, who is trying to steal the Gormauth aspect.

--Eric



Wait- canon?
Holy crap.. I'm going to need to take some serious time to re-calibrate my realms. Er, your realms.
Gosh, this forum is magical! There is no better feeling than the clarification of miscommunication. ^-^ A Christmas miracle indeed. Now I get to research Garagos and endlessly dissect this entire conversation.



Garagos is fun. In my campaign, Tempus had finally had enough of that little annoyance so he worked with the Red Knight to come up with a plan to have a mortal take his place and morph the portfolio into something more his liking (like what happened with Moander).

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe

467 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2020 :  02:50:13  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

As George points out, I turned in Garagos. Gargauth was published. But I meant Ghaunadaur.

Sigh, my brain must have been truly scrambled. But then if George had been properly checking and not coasting, I would have caught it. So it's George's fault.

The question for your campaign is whether to go with Ghaunadauar or Gargauth, who is trying to steal the Gormauth aspect.

--Eric



Wait- canon?
Holy crap.. I'm going to need to take some serious time to re-calibrate my realms. Er, your realms.
Gosh, this forum is magical! There is no better feeling than the clarification of miscommunication. ^-^ A Christmas miracle indeed. Now I get to research Garagos and endlessly dissect this entire conversation.



Garagos is fun. In my campaign, Tempus had finally had enough of that little annoyance so he worked with the Red Knight to come up with a plan to have a mortal take his place and morph the portfolio into something more his liking (like what happened with Moander).


^_^' This is all for making my party's Ghaunadaur Warlock (5e, OOTA) have a fantastical set of scenarios available to them. So, if this means Gargauth has nothing to do with Ghaunadaur, so be it. I'm just glad to start learning a bit more about that Souldrinker title, or at least how to apply it. I'm still in the dark with how to interpret this miscommunication for my research, but I'll have time to digest it all soon enough.
This is the Elemental Eye miscommunication all over again.. Ghaunadaur's publishing history cannot catch a break it seems.

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Edited by - PattPlays on 26 Dec 2020 02:51:31
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PattPlays
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Posted - 30 Dec 2020 :  02:24:37  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

As George points out, I turned in Garagos. Gargauth was published. But I meant Ghaunadaur.

Sigh, my brain must have been truly scrambled. But then if George had been properly checking and not coasting, I would have caught it. So it's George's fault.

The question for your campaign is whether to go with Ghaunadauar or Gargauth, who is trying to steal the Gormauth aspect.

--Eric


Aw man..

Wait- so the entry in CoS:W was a mixup of all mixups that makes sense. But what about Ghaunadaur's original list of allies and enemies? Was Gargauth intentionally submitted as his enemy? Why?

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:


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Child of Bhaal
Acolyte

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Posted - 12 Mar 2021 :  02:50:14  Show Profile Send Child of Bhaal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have two questions:

What is the actual holy symbol of Bhaal? Between editions the drops around the skull swap between tear drops and drops of blood. Did his symbol actually change, or was this an error?

"A white, face-on human skull surrounded by a counter-clockwise orbit of many streaming teardrops." - Faiths and Avatars pg 45

Blood drops shown in artwork for Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide pg 27

Blood drops shown in Murder in Baldur's Gate Campaign Guide pg 33

Blood drops shown on Baldur's Gate Descent into Avernus cover.


What is Bhaal's alignment and where is his divine realm due to this? Did it change when he was resurrected?

Baldur's Gate 2 computer game - Lawful evil, divine realm in the Nine Hells.

Faiths and Avatars pg 44 - Lawful Evil, but divine realm is in Gehenna

Lost Empires of Faerun pg 41 - Lawful Evil, not listed where his divine realm would be, but non-existent at this time.

Baldur's Gate Descent into Avernus pg 22 - "This door bears a carving of Bhaal, the chaotic evil god of Murder." Presumably his divine realm must be in the Abyss then.


I guess a third minor question would be is there a Level Adjustment to go with the Chosen of Bhaal template from the Murder in Baldur's Gate Web Enhancement since it isn't listed.
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Wooly Rupert
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I, personally, consider the 3 godbooks of 2E to be the definitive references on all things divine.

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TomCosta
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Posted - 12 Mar 2021 :  23:01:02  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My take is these things are somewhat mutable. Why does a god have to have only one holy symbol? Modern faiths don't necessarily have just one. Christians have the cross and the fish among others, for example. That said, SCAG has the standard symbol, its just all painted inred and the back cover of Descent has the "old" symbol of the skull surrounded by blood droplets.

As for his divine realm, things clearly move around a bit and may coexist in multiple planes at once. I would consider the video game to be authoritative, so Gehenna. That said, Bhaal seemingly died and his husk went to the Astral Sea to float for eternity until it wasn't anymore. And that said, new generally trumps old, and there is clearly more to the story of what's going on with the Dead Three in Descent then we have seen. I'm intrigued because as currently written it makes little sense to me, but I think the general quality of the 5E stuff (while often more lore light than 2E or 3E) is pretty good. One more note, Cyric was for a time the chaotic evil god of murder and held the portfolio's of all the Dead Three, but is now seemingly stilled trapped following the murder of Mystra. Perhaps there's a hint in there.
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Child of Bhaal
Acolyte

USA
3 Posts

Posted - 14 Mar 2021 :  03:27:17  Show Profile Send Child of Bhaal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCostaThat said, SCAG has the standard symbol, its just all painted inred and the back cover of Descent has the "old" symbol of the skull surrounded by blood droplets.



I know Bane's symbol changed to incorporate some of Xvim's color scheme after he was resurrected, so maybe the resurgent Bhaal mixed his up too upon his return. The In Store cover version of BG DIA and Murder in Baldur's Gate also show blood versions of the symbol and not as the whole thing painted in blood instead ofntear drops as well.

The main question for Bhaal's current alignment would be relevant for his clerics since at least for 3e they had to be within one alignment of their deity unless you took the Heretic of the Faith feat and I'm not even sure what the fallout for old clerics that no longer fit that requirement would be if the deity himself changed. I guess they would all just gain the feat as a bonus one since he would presumably still grant them spells?
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