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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2024 :  06:28:13  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Dark God at the End of All Things: https://bit.ly/48EtOZB

The cold of winter brings the enigmatic and imprisoned god of eternal darkness and decay, known simply as the Dark God. Said to have been imprisoned long ago in order to preserve all of creation, mythology also presents it as a being that will preside over the destruction of all things when he is eventually released.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3286 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2024 :  06:49:21  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perfect for a new year!

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 02 Jan 2024 :  20:30:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

The Dark God at the End of All Things: https://bit.ly/48EtOZB

The cold of winter brings the enigmatic and imprisoned god of eternal darkness and decay, known simply as the Dark God. Said to have been imprisoned long ago in order to preserve all of creation, mythology also presents it as a being that will preside over the destruction of all things when he is eventually released.

Jeff



Ancient temples that served as active centers of worship for centuries or that have a number of undead guardians are often imbued with much dark magic. Dark mists and biting cold fill the sanctified area, reducing all forms of light, and many magical traps and curses fill the halls and chambers. In particular, the often have caches of rare black diamonds that are cursed to transform those who would rob these treasures into undead servants of the Dark God.

I love this in that it almost seems like you are making a tie to the Queen of Air and Darkness and how she became an unseen being or area of shadowy blackness on a throne. One thing Markustay came up with that I loved and felt like it would be great to use was the idea that the QoA&D had this "regalia of winter" as some form of "cursed artifacts" that were being used to corrupt divine entities, such that some of them turned exceptionally dark and others "went dark but are now repenting".

If we extended that a little differently and linked these things back to this god, and stated that he does THIS because he CAN'T act as a god and is corrupting the divine in order to use them somewhat like puppets or servants in hopes of eventually freeing himself. The instances where he temporarily manifests an avatar might be seen as extended if he's able to act through a god in the same way that the gods filled the bodies of mortals during the ToT.... or something like what happens with a 3rd edition binder who binds a vestige where an entity shares a body and can influence the being residing in it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 02 Jan 2024 :  21:54:06  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Ancient temples that served as active centers of worship for centuries or that have a number of undead guardians are often imbued with much dark magic. Dark mists and biting cold fill the sanctified area, reducing all forms of light, and many magical traps and curses fill the halls and chambers. In particular, the often have caches of rare black diamonds that are cursed to transform those who would rob these treasures into undead servants of the Dark God.

I love this in that it almost seems like you are making a tie to the Queen of Air and Darkness and how she became an unseen being or area of shadowy blackness on a throne. One thing Markustay came up with that I loved and felt like it would be great to use was the idea that the QoA&D had this "regalia of winter" as some form of "cursed artifacts" that were being used to corrupt divine entities, such that some of them turned exceptionally dark and others "went dark but are now repenting".


That temple description was drawn from Night Below, which was fairly explicit in naming the Dark God as Tharizdun from Greyhawk. The potential connection with the Queen of Air and Darkness was specified by Sargent as well, and he included a large number of cursed black diamonds in the Night Below adventure, so I think the Dark God being responsible (intentionally or unintentionally) is pretty clear.


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

If we extended that a little differently and linked these things back to this god, and stated that he does THIS because he CAN'T act as a god and is corrupting the divine in order to use them somewhat like puppets or servants in hopes of eventually freeing himself. The instances where he temporarily manifests an avatar might be seen as extended if he's able to act through a god in the same way that the gods filled the bodies of mortals during the ToT.... or something like what happens with a 3rd edition binder who binds a vestige where an entity shares a body and can influence the being residing in it.



I would mostly handle the Dark God as having very little agency and no solid plans because his prison is so very tight. But what he can do is create "seeds" that he hopes have negative effects that further his goals. For example, the Black Diamond of the Queen of Air and Darkness was essentially just a generically corrupting artifact of great power, and it just happened to find its way into her hands by circumstance, sort of like how the One Ring just happened to find its way into Smeagol's, Bilbo's, and Frodo's hands rather than intentionally trying to get into their hands specifically. To spice things up, I created the idea that the Dark God's prison may periodically (over periods of hundreds of years, with planetary conjunctions or when ill-omened comets appear, etc.) weaken just enough for him to reach out a finger and touch the Prime briefly, and in this time his goal tends to be to just lay more seeds like the Black Diamond, but of various power levels, with the goal of increasing the rate of destruction of the multiverse. I think players would be operating against the plans of the followers of the Dark God rather than the Dark God's own plans. :)

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2024 :  15:01:37  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I never have read through Night Below, but I've always heard good things. I have skimmed it though when there were references. It seems I need to look. I know a year or five back we were discussing here this idea of the black diamonds and Markustay's idea of the "regalia of winter", but there was also a lot of discussion of Tharizdun and the 4e idea of the formation of the Abyss by a "Shard of Pure Evil" used to corrupt the elemental chaos. There was also a "primordial" who was imprisoned and known as Timesus the Black Star also included in 4e lore as being made of black crystal that was imprisoned and broken into pieces, but killed during the dawn war. We also have this idea presented in a lot of the 5e adventures of "black/dark crystals" that are hinted to have some ability to enable time travel and a lot of other things... so I agree having these things as some form of "tool" that "the Dark God" / Tharizdun has been somehow

Along these same lines, we've noted a lot of similarities between Kiaransalee, the Raven Queen, the QoA&D, Auril, and Ereshkigal ... and perhaps rather than relating them as "the same being", because there are similarities but differences... it might perhaps be better to give them all some links back to these kind of corrupting artifacts. We might even find out that the "Tenebrous" that "brought Orcus back" was in fact something where Orcus used one of these black diamonds in some form of "contingency" should he be killed so that he could then resurrect his own godly nature. Basically, a lot of death / winter / darkness gods may have been touched by these "black diamonds" ... at which time the Dark God took advantage of this to use them to try and advance his goals... possibly acting to speak to them in a way similar to how Fistandantilus spoke to Raistlin or how binders get influenced subtly. Some of them embrace this... some break away eventually.

All of that to somewhat say that it could be interesting to link this crystal in a lot of other ways besides the divine as well. We could for instance find out that "the death moon orb" that had a corrupting influence that turned people steadily more evil.... was perhaps made of this "black diamond" material. Since Larloch supposedly made the "death moon orb", we might find out that he himself had some kind of involvement at some point with these materials as well and was possibly corrupted at some point.

SIDENOTE: sorry to hijack the thread just a little... its just this topic made some ideas come to mind and I wanted to jot down my thoughts.

If "The Dark God" / Tharizdun were linked to the black diamond references and they did corrupt a lot of other beings... it occurs to me that both the Raven Queen and Kiaransalee are noted as having worked against orcus in the past (and Kiaransalee specifically used magic to erase Orcus' references, which removed him, and later same was done to her). Both also would seem to fit the bill of having been influenced by such things. So, perhaps these instances were not the gods being destroyed, but rather imprisoned... using power of Tharizdun... and giving Tharizdun some temporary respite from his own prison. This might change the nature of these "black diamonds" and provide a good explanation/mechanic to explain how some storylines have happened, in that these times when the gods are forgotten they are being imprisoned near or in the place where Tharizdun is held temporarily. Perhaps some free themselves as Orcus did. Perhaps others can only be held until some planar conjunction happens and then they get released....... which could also be used as an explanation in FR for the disappearance of a lot of gods suddenly and their return ala spellplague/second sundering

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 03 Jan 2024 16:22:26
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2024 :  23:53:14  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ben-hadar, the Prince of Good Water: https://bit.ly/48WXHVR

The third of the good archomentals is Ben-hadar, an arrogant and provincial ruler who many believe pushes the boundaries of what is considered good. While he does care for the well-being of his followers, he has little interest in what happens beyond the borders of the Plane of Water.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2024 :  20:48:47  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Zinzerena the Hunted: https://bit.ly/49yWDYu

A recent addition to the drow pantheon, Zinzerena is an outsider even among that chaotic and fractured group of powers. Once a figure in heroic legends, she managed to ascend through trickery, and has been avoiding other members of the pantheon and causing chaos among drow cities ever since. I emphasized her more neutral aspects, which I think would be coming to the fore with her recent loss of power to Lolth.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3286 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2024 :  07:10:32  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like this last one.

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2024 :  16:18:18  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

I like this last one.



Thanks! She was a lot of fun to write. :D

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2024 :  23:25:20  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ilsensine, the Great Brain: https://bit.ly/3UprrVi

The terrible and powerful patron of the illithids is Ilsensine, the Great Brain. A deity of pure mental energy, it exhorts its followers to take their rightful place of domination over all other races of the multiverse. Thereís been a lot written about illithids over the years, so this one took a lot of research and Iím pretty sure I still missed a lot of potentially relevant material, but it was still a lot of fun to write!

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2024 :  14:53:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Ilsensine, the Great Brain: https://bit.ly/3UprrVi

The terrible and powerful patron of the illithids is Ilsensine, the Great Brain. A deity of pure mental energy, it exhorts its followers to take their rightful place of domination over all other races of the multiverse. Thereís been a lot written about illithids over the years, so this one took a lot of research and Iím pretty sure I still missed a lot of potentially relevant material, but it was still a lot of fun to write!

Jeff



Nice research. I didn't know the stuff about Clusterspace holding an avatar of Ilsensine captive and trying to drain his powers.

I know that you try to be true to the source material without too much addition of your own thoughts, which is appreciated. But, it would be nice to hear your own thoughts on a few things. I wonder how much you think Ilsensine is involved with the spelljamming of the race? As a for instance, back in 2e the illithid ships were purely constructs (i.e. wood and other materials made into a ship). Newer editions beyond second edition seems to be hinting that nautiloids are less of a construct and more of a grown being. Also, within spelljammer there were the different helm types, and both series helms and pool helms were noted as being created by illithids (with pool helms being less of a "device" and more of a "living magic creation" resembling an elder brain and its pool. Do you think Ilsensine and/or his priesthood might have been behind DEVELOPING these new "living technologies"? Along similar veins, do you think Ilsensine's priesthood pushes for experimentation in creating ceremorphs of other races, or do they consider this kind of experimentation nothing more than we would of someone trying to create a new technology and not "divinely guided" in any way?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2024 :  19:00:54  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Nice research. I didn't know the stuff about Clusterspace holding an avatar of Ilsensine captive and trying to drain his powers.


Hmm, maybe I need to rewrite that section, because they're actually trying to reinvigorate the avatar (this is connected to one of the two epic-style adventures in the boxed set). In the original material, it was Lugribossk, but the Illithiad changed Lugribossk into one of Ilsensine's proxies. Unfortunately, that makes very little sense in the context of the Astromundi Cluster; when the Illithiad mentioned Astromundi I was really excited, but then really let down that it basically was like "this is all wrong" and didn't do anything to integrate and merge the material. IMO, having Lugribossk as an alias of Ilsensine works best for having the material actually work without eliminating it altogether.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I know that you try to be true to the source material without too much addition of your own thoughts, which is appreciated. But, it would be nice to hear your own thoughts on a few things. I wonder how much you think Ilsensine is involved with the spelljamming of the race? As a for instance, back in 2e the illithid ships were purely constructs (i.e. wood and other materials made into a ship). Newer editions beyond second edition seems to be hinting that nautiloids are less of a construct and more of a grown being.


I see Ilsensine as being very hands(tentacles)-off, letting illithids mostly work towards their total domination of creation in their own way and in their own time. Like, he sees it as an inevitability, so why sweat the small stuff kind of attitude.

As for the Nautiloids, I think there's some new material that portrays the living ones as very ancient versions, essentially a lost technology. That said, I don't like the living ones. At all. Even though they look similar, it completely changes their usage; you can't ram another ship with them, which is the use of the original's tentacle-like forward element, which is also a really nice analogy to the way illithids eat without it being literally the same. Plus, having living nautiloids would allow illithids to freely leave the Astromundi Cluster, something only elves can do as a singular faction. Finally, I feel like it adds too much of a modern scifi element to something I like to keep very fantastical and Age of Sail in feeling.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Also, within spelljammer there were the different helm types, and both series helms and pool helms were noted as being created by illithids (with pool helms being less of a "device" and more of a "living magic creation" resembling an elder brain and its pool. Do you think Ilsensine and/or his priesthood might have been behind DEVELOPING these new "living technologies"?


So Pool Helms are definitely a development of the illithids, but the Series Helms are very likely not. They still need to get them from the Arcane, and Series Helms are race specific; any race that has innate powers can get tailored series helms from the Arcane, which are not useable by other races. For example, illithids can't use hurwaeti series helms and vice versa. There's a specific Creed in the Illithiad that deals with developing new devices, and they would be the ones who created the Pool Helms most likely (probably on Falx). In some communities, the Venerator Creed and that one could be merged, and in such places, they would be involved, but generally not. Illithid society seems to be very segmented from the way the Illithiad is written.

Now, that's not to say they would never be involved; illithid society is also VERY political, with the different Creeds working together or against each other for a whole host of very specific local reasons, so they could very well be involved in one community, and deeply opposed to such creations in another community.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Along similar veins, do you think Ilsensine's priesthood pushes for experimentation in creating ceremorphs of other races, or do they consider this kind of experimentation nothing more than we would of someone trying to create a new technology and not "divinely guided" in any way?



Definitely the latter, but more as a tendency than an absolute. Since the Creeds that develop in any given community can vary, as can alliances between the Creeds, there would definitely be some priests that would engage in those activities, and in some communities they might develop an ex post facto "divine" reasoning to support it if they're allied to the Creed that does such things.

I personally really dislike ceremorphosis, to be honest, and that's exactly one of those personal views that I don't want to inject into these writeups. That said, you'll note that I made no mention of it either way, so this material can be used with ceremorphosis or not. :D

The main reason I dislike it is that it creates an inescapable "original sin" that any illithid who chooses the path of not being evil needs to contend with; it means advocating for good is *also* advocating for the extinction of their entire race. The easiest way IMO to reconcile the two would be to treat ceremorphosis as a "shortcut" to adulthood for an illithid, where normal tadpole growth would take far longer. That does mean that it would need to alter the origin of Neothelids; my solution here is to assume that Neothelids are neotenous illithid tadpoles, retaining juvenile aspects into adulthood the same way that axolotls do, but as an accident rather than an evolutionary change affecting the whole species.

I like illithids being, as a society, a thoroughly evil and malicious bunch (who can also work with others as is the case in Spelljammer), but still with the *possibility* of redemption that some members of the race might actually work towards (and of course then get exiled if not killed). It creates a more interesting civilization than one inextricably evil.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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NyluenathaStareyes
Acolyte

USA
15 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2024 :  01:14:30  Show Profile Send NyluenathaStareyes a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok hi just joining into this to say WOW, amazing work Auld Dragon. I just spent far too much time catching up on all of this thread and well..yeah. Amazing!

Realms fan for life!
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2024 :  01:28:23  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you! :D

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 10 Jun 2024 :  21:14:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Along similar veins, do you think Ilsensine's priesthood pushes for experimentation in creating ceremorphs of other races, or do they consider this kind of experimentation nothing more than we would of someone trying to create a new technology and not "divinely guided" in any way?



Definitely the latter, but more as a tendency than an absolute. Since the Creeds that develop in any given community can vary, as can alliances between the Creeds, there would definitely be some priests that would engage in those activities, and in some communities they might develop an ex post facto "divine" reasoning to support it if they're allied to the Creed that does such things.

I personally really dislike ceremorphosis, to be honest, and that's exactly one of those personal views that I don't want to inject into these writeups. That said, you'll note that I made no mention of it either way, so this material can be used with ceremorphosis or not. :D

The main reason I dislike it is that it creates an inescapable "original sin" that any illithid who chooses the path of not being evil needs to contend with; it means advocating for good is *also* advocating for the extinction of their entire race. The easiest way IMO to reconcile the two would be to treat ceremorphosis as a "shortcut" to adulthood for an illithid, where normal tadpole growth would take far longer. That does mean that it would need to alter the origin of Neothelids; my solution here is to assume that Neothelids are neotenous illithid tadpoles, retaining juvenile aspects into adulthood the same way that axolotls do, but as an accident rather than an evolutionary change affecting the whole species.

I like illithids being, as a society, a thoroughly evil and malicious bunch (who can also work with others as is the case in Spelljammer), but still with the *possibility* of redemption that some members of the race might actually work towards (and of course then get exiled if not killed). It creates a more interesting civilization than one inextricably evil.

Jeff



Snipping to this one section, as I'd like to add that you convinced me on this. I won't say that I don't want ceremorphosis. I will say that I like the idea that making it that they can more quickly create a lesser form of mind flayer via ceremorphosis of certain humanoid races. Making it that this "lesser" form is the kind most commonly found, and then adding that they can "advance" to the "more powerful form" by consuming brains or somesuch works for me. They might commonly make the "lesser" form via ceremorphosis to keep their ranks full. Maybe those that grow naturally have more of a likelihood to become ulitharids.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2024 :  16:09:07  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Snipping to this one section, as I'd like to add that you convinced me on this. I won't say that I don't want ceremorphosis. I will say that I like the idea that making it that they can more quickly create a lesser form of mind flayer via ceremorphosis of certain humanoid races. Making it that this "lesser" form is the kind most commonly found, and then adding that they can "advance" to the "more powerful form" by consuming brains or somesuch works for me. They might commonly make the "lesser" form via ceremorphosis to keep their ranks full. Maybe those that grow naturally have more of a likelihood to become ulitharids.



That could definitely work. Back in 2e there weren't very many variations from ceremorphosis (and I think they all showed up in the Illithiad), so I haven't had to think to much about those variants. :)

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe

USA
555 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2024 :  22:33:10  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sunnis, the Princess of Good Earth: https://bit.ly/4coyfKn

The last of the good archomentals, Sunnis, is the closest thing to a leader the group has. She advocates for a united front against the evil archomentals, but has not yet had much success, especially with the obstinacy of Ben-hadar. To he followers, she is a motherly figure who embodies steadfastness, support, and protection.

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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