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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore

USA
1134 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2023 :  22:33:10  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Two questions:

What is the likelihood that Bigby Presents: Glory of the Giants due out in August brings a mention of Ostoria or delves into Ostorian lore? My guess is the probability is low to nil, but in the promotional material the word “lore” is actually used quite a few times. So here’s to having hope.

In absence of Ostorian lore, do you believe the majority of the book will be able to be shoehorned in? I’d love to have my players find an ancient ruin - will this book help me flesh it out?

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7892 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2023 :  23:46:33  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The FR wiki says:

"At the peak of its power, Ostoria occupied an area of Faerūn stretching from the Vilhon Reach in the south to the lands now covered by the Great Glacier in the north, and from the Savage Frontier in the west to the Cold Lands in the east."

So that's basically all of the Heartlands and most of Faerun. You'd think that there'd be lots of ruins scattered everywhere, more than the giants are scattered everywhere, that Ostoria would have had a greater influence in Faerun than existing Realmslore suggests.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 01 Jun 2023 23:49:02
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore

USA
1134 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2023 :  07:25:47  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The FR wiki says:

"At the peak of its power, Ostoria occupied an area of Faerūn stretching from the Vilhon Reach in the south to the lands now covered by the Great Glacier in the north, and from the Savage Frontier in the west to the Cold Lands in the east."

So that's basically all of the Heartlands and most of Faerun. You'd think that there'd be lots of ruins scattered everywhere, more than the giants are scattered everywhere, that Ostoria would have had a greater influence in Faerun than existing Realmslore suggests.



Agreed. It got some lore in Rime and certainly in Storm Kings Thunder but still not enough in my book. I hope the word “Ostoria” shows up in this product at least once.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11579 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2023 :  16:01:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
rather interestingly on this topic in some ways, there's a LOT of giant cultures in Zakhara and wasn't there one historically located around Kara-tur? I'd love to know if there's ANY relation to the giants born of Annam (which I'd actually prefer not), and it might be interesting to find out that these other giant races are born of other primordial beings and/or gods, immigrants from another world or plane, etc.... and also possibly interesting to know WHEN they showed up. Also, since second edition there's been some giants that were introduced that haven't really been placed in the realms in any one place definitively much (eldritch giants, death giants, etc...), but which have gotten reasonable interest from players (at least in my view).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
834 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2023 :  16:34:14  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wasn't Darkhold a giant dwelling, or at least a construction?

Edited by - Delnyn on 02 Jun 2023 16:35:01
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6332 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2023 :  17:47:26  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Darkhold was giants, monastery of the yellow rose was probably giants.

There is no way WoTC would tackle anything in Zakhara or Kara-Tur, they wont even leave the Sword Coast and i'm not sure they possess the creative chops to delve into ancient lore

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7892 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2023 :  18:49:18  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Darkhold was giants, monastery of the yellow rose was probably giants.

How fortunate that the 1E rules of Ostoria's era didn't allow non-humans to be the very dangerous monk class.

[/Ayrik]
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11579 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2023 :  19:50:33  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Darkhold was giants, monastery of the yellow rose was probably giants.

There is no way WoTC would tackle anything in Zakhara or Kara-Tur, they wont even leave the Sword Coast and i'm not sure they possess the creative chops to delve into ancient lore



Yeah, I don't expect them to detail anything in Zakhara or K-T, but they might note that there are other giant cultures in the world that came later, or prior, and/or that may even have been in conflict with Annam's children. Basically, while Annam was important to giants, it would be nice to have something that says "not every giant directly relates back to Annam or Othea". That being said, we have two stories for death giants in MM3, one of which goes back to Netheril. Nothing documented for eldritch giants though.... might be interesting if those were related by to a norse power (Utgard-Loki also known as Skrymir would very much fit, since he was a deceptive giant.... I had made a link to them via a being I named Utgor-Vali in my metahel myths... which was a hint back to some links I've made to Valigor the Runtborn Giant/Valigan Thirdborn acting like Loki in norse myths ).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 02 Jun 2023 21:36:40
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36735 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2023 :  23:19:41  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would expect more "lore" that basically comes out of left field and is entirely disconnected to anything previous, like the lore about hyenas transforming into gnolls after eating some leftovers, or the Fizban book lifting the plot of the Jet Li movie The One and making it a thing for dragons.


That or it's going to be a reprint of Giantcraft with less than a half-page of new lore.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Jun 2023 04:00:54
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7892 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2023 :  00:23:08  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I would explore more "lore" that basically comes out of left field and is entirely disconnected to anything previous, like ... the Fizban book lifting the plot of the Jet Li movie The One and making it a thing for dragons.

I liked that movie. But it really should have been called "The Two" instead of "The One". Strangely, this might still make your half-joking comment remain quite apropos in the lore.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36735 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2023 :  04:02:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I would explore more "lore" that basically comes out of left field and is entirely disconnected to anything previous, like ... the Fizban book lifting the plot of the Jet Li movie The One and making it a thing for dragons.

I liked that movie. But it really should have been called "The Two" instead of "The One". Strangely, this might still make your half-joking comment remain quite apropos in the lore.



I liked the movie, myself, and thought it an interesting idea. That said, I'd not call it great or high cinema or anything like that, and -- though others disagree and I don't wish to have that debate again -- I don't think the concept fits into a fantasy setting.

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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
937 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2023 :  23:03:37  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I assume they'll expand on the giant lore in Volo's Guide to Monsters, which means they'll be building off of the more generic elements of Giantcraft since Volo's was mostly just that and some of Monster Mythology reworded. Now whether it includes much Realmslore, I'm with Wooly; I doubt there will be much, but who knows maybe they'll detail Hartsvale or Ostoria.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11579 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2023 :  22:38:08  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What I wonder is, since they changed the firbolg in 5e HEAVILY.... will they create something that resembles what we know of as a firbolg, but call it a different name. I did something like this in my "The Influence of the Amber Dragons of Anchorome on the North" on DM's Guild wherein I created a giant that was a nod back to Paul Bunyan (Ral Banyun with his companion Baeg the Bloommoose) while also being a nod to verbeeg/firbolg/voadkyn that I called Verbolgkyn.


Which just because I mentioned that, figure I'll share a snippet from that because I had some fun writing it. It's got a lot of little easter eggs in it in the form of slight changes of spelling of god names, etc... to match with the idea that the gods in Anchorome might be the same but sound a little different, etc...


The chief of these logging communities lies in Magrravarr Falls, where a community of giants which call themselves Verbolgkyn reside. These giants stand just under ten feet tall, have thick and bushy hair and beards in hues of black, brown, and even pale-green, skin that varies from a tanned texture to a nut brown color, and appear stocky of build. (Treat as a Verbeeg Longstrider from Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden, except that their spell list is instead 1/day: Beast Bond, Longstrider, Speak with Animals, Pass without Trace, Stoneskin) Due to their name, faerunians believe that they are a cross breed of firbolgs, verbeeg, and voadkyn which has formed their own new race, but the verbolgkyn have no stories which would link them to Othea and the giantkin of Faerun. They live in large log steadings surrounded by fields of growing corn, soybeans, potatoes, pumpkins, cabbages and similar vegetables. They keep mammoths and rothe as service animals and plow beasts, and they keep goats and sheep as pets as well as a valuable food source. However, while primarily agrarian, they also tend to hunt and fish for meat to add to their diets, favoring the hunting of bears, wolves, boars, and mountain lions, and they are not above hunting and killing one of the bear folk from the Beyori Riverlands to the south.

The verbolgkyn are in particular known for their sweet tooth, and they favor making syrup from the maple trees in the area, which they often eat with simple corn cakes. This of course puts them at odds with the amber dragons which subsist primarily on sap. On several instances this had led to a physical conflict between the verbolgkyn and the amber dragons of the Mahoke Forest. Most of these instances involve amber dragons that become territorial about the giantkin crossing the invisible boundary into lands that they feel they own. Rarely are the verbolgkyn actually the instigators in these conflicts, as most of them value the effects that the amber dragons have on their regions. In fact, there are many instances where the amber dragons react to the giantkin hunting predators that the dragons consider friends. In almost all of these instances, the verbolgkyn react as a community to put down an amber dragon that threatens them.

One verbolgkyn, Ral Banyun, has actually moved away from his kinfolk to live in the middle of the Mahoke forest itself with his wife, Lissette, and their dozen children. They live in a cabin made specifically from trees killed by amber dragons stabbing them with their horns. Ral travels the forest with Baeg the Bloommoose, an awakened giant moose which Ral swears is a child of Besparr the Many-legged. The two of them spend their time looking for dying trees and tending to them, or in the case of dying trees, clearing them to plant new growth. It is thus no surprise that Ral is a druid who worships Raelkath Maneeboughs, a tree god portrayed as a great elk with trees for antlers. Ral is taller than most verbolgkyn with a great green beard and he wields a great rune-carved axe made from Baeg's shed antlers. His mate, Lissette, worships Audhum-Bhalla, “The Milk Mother”, a primordial rothe whose milk is said to have freed many great spirits from the frozen ice age at the dawn of time, and Lissette keeps herds of giant goats, rothe, and caribou and grows fields of whey. She uses the whey and wild strawberries to make a fermented milk concoction she calls Bhallasblud, as well as several types of cheese flavored with peppers or berries.

Maepilfiying has ordered her children to not interfere with Ral and Lissette's home. In fact, she periodically visits the giantkin, often bringing some wounded animal with her in hopes that they will take the creature in until it can mend its wounds. She has also developed a taste for Lissette's homemade jelly tarts, and she is known to bring gifts to the giantkin in hopes that they'll give her a tray full of them. It has been said that this relationship was built when a green dragon from Abeir appeared in the forest and attacked several of her wyrmlings. Ral charged in astride Baeg the Bloommoose, antler-axe in hand, and the two of them leapt atop the back of the draconic predator, pinning its wings to the ground and ultimately cleaving its head from its elongated neck.

The young dragons saved by Ral have had over forty years to tell this story to the Chibbamagwa, and as with many children, with each telling the story grows grander. Having been told now for two generations of Minnenewah, the “great giant Ral Banyun and his faithful mount Baeg the Bloommoose” have become the center of numerous stories by the Chibbamagwa tribes, such that whenever he visits one of their tribes they treat it as a local holiday. When his wife visits, the Chibbamagwa politely line up, considering her to be something of an amazing healer and wise woman. Of course, the young dragons tell the locals what a great honor is being bestowed upon them by the giants showing up, and this utterly confuses the verbolgkyn, who still think of themselves as simple woodsfolk.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
937 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2023 :  00:59:11  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Similar thought. If you look, they combined firbolg and voadkyn. Voadkyn kind of disappeared after 2E, but their magic abilities are very similar to firbolg and the 5E firbolg looks a bit like a cross between the two, albeit voadkyn are bald, but maybe that's just some voadkyn. I'd argue that voadkyn is the elven or fey name for the same type of giant and maybe those firbolg in the Feywild are typically bald.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11579 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2023 :  03:18:15  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

Similar thought. If you look, they combined firbolg and voadkyn. Voadkyn kind of disappeared after 2E, but their magic abilities are very similar to firbolg and the 5E firbolg looks a bit like a cross between the two, albeit voadkyn are bald, but maybe that's just some voadkyn. I'd argue that voadkyn is the elven or fey name for the same type of giant and maybe those firbolg in the Feywild are typically bald.



Yes, the look was totally different, but they pretty much filled the same role (the 2e voadkyn and the 3e and prior firbolg). That being said, since we have canon lore that they are different (i.e. Othea birthed both the voadkyn and firbolgs), I prefer to view their similarities to having the same father, and having voadkyn as much more lanky and "fey" looking to some degree.

The firbolgs in 5e though are only a little taller at 7 to 8 feet.... which Firbolgs were short for giants, but still 10 foot tall and 800 lbs. Granted, in 5e they gave them powerful build, but its not the same. I would almost venture that the 5e firbolg is a mix-blood between earlier firbolgs and some kind of fey (perhaps an elf, nymph, dryad, or a female firbolg and a satyr... or in an odd mixture a korred).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7892 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2023 :  03:45:22  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
2E Giantcraft provided rules for making variant or custom giant (jotun) races.

You could use these rules, on the low end, to make "giants" which are merely the same size and build as a typical human.

The difference between species wasn't so much about size ... it was about anatomy, psychology, lineage, history. The human-sized "giant" would still be immediately recognizable as some sort of giant-kin or giant descendant, never mistaken for an unusually large, robust, and craggy human.

[/Ayrik]
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1148 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2023 :  09:24:50  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The FR wiki says:

"At the peak of its power, Ostoria occupied an area of Faerūn stretching from the Vilhon Reach in the south to the lands now covered by the Great Glacier in the north, and from the Savage Frontier in the west to the Cold Lands in the east."

So that's basically all of the Heartlands and most of Faerun. You'd think that there'd be lots of ruins scattered everywhere, more than the giants are scattered everywhere, that Ostoria would have had a greater influence in Faerun than existing Realmslore suggests.



The Dragon god Garyx is credited with manifesting on the Material Plane and making damn sure that any giants they defeated were destroyed utterly. Ironfang Keep was one of the only giant settlements noted to have escaped destruction, and some say that's only because the giants abandoned it before Garyx showed up.

By the time Garyx' rampage ended, Ostoria only occupied the northernmost sliver of the cold lands of Faer#251;n.

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