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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2023 :  14:18:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Outlaw Pope

I have just always felt that most of this stuff already existed - at least in the context of FR's product line. A lot of villainous individuals had more human or flawed ideas. Many of the monsters have implied opportunities to "leave the dark" but are just bound up in their societies. There is an Orog (orc) paladin /of Torm/ in the court and company of Queen Zaranda, there is an entire goddess who exists solely as the metaphysical hope for Drow escaping their dark gods, there are deities like Ilmater who encourage compassion for anyone and anything to the point even many monsterous races leave those priests alone because they know they will get free healing from them. An entire subrace of Orcs who were raised and molded by Eldath. A LN priest of Oghma in Skullport who is a Mindflayer.

I have always seen the "alignment" things are general guidelines of how these things usually are but as far as mortals are concerned they have entire free form and will to change or be different. But the battle of metaphysical alignment made literal in the mortal realm sees Chaos, Law, Good, and Evil smashing into each other and thus the world is very much a mess. Which is why there is high adventure.

But that is probably because DnD pre 3e had actual writers and newer products were made by smaller and smaller teams of constantly shifting people. You eventually get people who do not even have anything to do with DnD and especially subsettings like the realms who do not care or even know about how this stuff existed and you just get someone on staff either wanting to simplify stuff to appeal to "current socio-political matters" as to make stuff clean or some guy in corporate who thinks they can use it to generate controversy for free advertisement while "looking good".

But yeah, I do not think it's a "new concept" - its always been there without big red letters or genericized rewrites that sanitize any conflict.



It's not "current socio-political matters" or trying to look good, it's finally acknowledging issues that have existed for decades, but were ignored because those who were affected were too small a part of the audience to pay any attention to.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2023 :  16:50:12  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I find it hard to believe that the very people who hardcore pushed those tropes in D&D, who went out of their way to ridicule and remove the few elements that were there to reduce those issues, and whose company had been reported for discriminatory practices against its own emplyees, suddenly made a 180. WotC's statement wasn't preceded by a steady stream of changes that denoted a gradual and natural shift--so much that they were forced to axe and rewrite lots of text from books that had been written and published shortly before said statement. If they hadn't received huge backlash back in 2020, which prompted their statement, I really doubt their stance would have changed.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 25 Jan 2023 16:52:47
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Outlaw Pope
Acolyte

43 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2023 :  22:15:34  Show Profile Send Outlaw Pope a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am entirely skeptical because I am cynical about the role of capitalism in social movements. Companies and holders of power I do not think are honest or reliable actors when it comes to social justice as they are usually also the perpetrators of oppression. I am especially critical on the matter when it comes to WOTC/Hasbro due to their willingness to chase the bottom line at the expense of their consumer base and how they basically fired, let go, and downsized a lot of talent when they acquired the DnD property. Some of whom were/are very talented female artists and writers.

Like I said earlier in the thread - I really do not care what they decide to call the "options" for character customization and I do not think it is a bad thing to be more clear cut rather than leaving it to reading comprehension or critical thinking. Like as far as settings go I think Forgotten Realms, despite some TSR copy pasting of real life human cultures, has been pretty decent when it comes to peoples in the Realms and avoiding too much IRL weight. But as far as "setting neutral game material" goes, it being completely sanitary is fine. Honestly, it should be as generic as possible as to be accessible (so players have a reason to buy setting content or make up their own stuff).

I do not think their change is bad. I just do not see what they are doing as revolutionary nor as particularly honest. It just seems (to me) typical business of the day where companies pretend to be people. Like I can see it as simply WOTC wanting to further simplify the game (also not bad) but look good while doing so. Given how a lot of the active DnD people are a small group of white men, I still lean more toward the "SILENCE BRAND" meme.

I just felt like I needed to clarify I am not on team REEE CHANGE BAD, I am just skeptical of why. I also understand I am not the only person who plays. Renaming the Player Character option label is entirely fine and may even be 'good' for the core rules/players handbook. But in terms of world building I think the bigotries in a setting can enhance storytelling if presented meaningfully and I suppose avoiding binaries from presentation, at least indicate the lore or perspective is from an unreliable narrator to leave stuff up to interpretation.

Edited by - Outlaw Pope on 25 Jan 2023 22:16:24
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
279 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2023 :  16:35:55  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ive been thinking about what I think about this move, um, from my view, the "biology" science uses both the term subspecies and race, equally, we use it both as "funny lumps of random animals we breed with to get more animals looking like there", dogs, cats, etc. and neither is problematic. the term has been used when racial studies was a big no-no, and so far into the future the normal, day to day use of the most archaic and non spesific term is bad? tbh its just a random move, also nonsensical, but of no consequence.
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Azar
Master of Realmslore

1279 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2023 :  17:48:22  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Outlaw Pope

wanting to simplify stuff to appeal to "current socio-political matters" as to make stuff clean or some guy in corporate who thinks they can use it to generate controversy for free advertisement while "looking good".


Bingo. There's less D&D and more "presently popular movement" in the mix.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.

Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think.
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
279 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2023 :  09:07:08  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The correct option for this time and place in history is "Multiracial" elves, and "Multiracial" orcs, honestly, Id give it as feedback if they insisted, as they still do, half elf is racist. O.o

Honestly nobody uses the odd terms of full blood or half race for real life right? Unless it's a child of a full massai and an inuit living in Denmark in a TINY place where the one kid absolutely give no sense at all, "umm australia? papua? oh, is those two your parents! Oh I got it!"

Positive side, it might be legal to be multiracial orc elf human and thiefling?

Edited by - Starshade on 06 Apr 2023 09:10:06
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2376 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2023 :  09:29:54  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Then there's this: https://archive.is/GLUkZ
But hey, continue to praise the retroactive wisdom of creatures from tumblr. At this point, why not?

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2023 :  11:47:41  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, I just can't ignore when comments are from a place of "why change it, it's not that bad!".

Yes. Yes, it is THAT bad. When certain things make people feel uncomfortable and prevent them from playing an otherwise very inclusive game, then you make changes to remove that uncomfortable feeling. Not just from a marketing standpoint, but from a human decency standpoint. And, hey, if you don't like the changes, there's plenty of others that don't as well, and they play their own games.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Athreeren
Learned Scribe

128 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2023 :  11:59:59  Show Profile Send Athreeren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Then there's this: https://archive.is/GLUkZ
But hey, continue to praise the retroactive wisdom of creatures from tumblr. At this point, why not?



Well, it is consistent with their move toward making species (or whatever you may call it) a cosmetic choice, with the bonuses in the background. It's true that it would make little sense to have half elves with this set of rules: they're just people with slightly pointy ears. And it's not as if people like Arilyn Moonblade would stop to exist (except for the fact that this would require having people still writing novels and lore of course), it's just that all she had to endure about never belonging to the human or elven world is just background with no mechanical impact. It's still weird that a pixie fighter would crush a titan mage at arm wrestling though.

Talking about racist and speciesist terms, when are they going to stop using the word "humanity" for everything that's good in people? That is a word that actually bothers me.
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HighOne
Learned Scribe

214 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2023 :  16:38:47  Show Profile Send HighOne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jeremy Crawford on half-elves and half-orcs recently: “The half construction is inherently racist so we simply aren’t going to include it in the new Player’s Handbook.”
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2023 :  17:33:25  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So it appears, humans and elves, two different species can not have children together. That will take out a lot of lore history.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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deserk
Learned Scribe

Norway
237 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2023 :  18:17:41  Show Profile Send deserk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
WotC just keep getting more and more ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with half-elves and half-orcs. What's far more nefarious is implying their existence is problematic.

And let's be honest, WotC is really just doing this as a smokescreen in an attempt to appease the Twitter mob, and to control the conversation, rather than have people talking about their utterly greed-driven catastrophe with the OGL.

Edited by - deserk on 06 Apr 2023 18:19:08
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe

128 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2023 :  19:09:29  Show Profile Send Athreeren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

So it appears, humans and elves, two different species can not have children together. That will take out a lot of lore history.



That's not how I interpret it. In Tolkien, Eärendil and Elwing had two sons, but contrary to their half-elven parents, they had to choose their heritage. Elrond chose the elves and got to live for millenia, Elros chose the humans, and lived a measly 5 centuries. I think that's how they're going to have it, with any species being able to reproduce together, the result being one or the other, but with some traits of the other parent.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2023 :  21:10:49  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deserk

WotC just keep getting more and more ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with half-elves and half-orcs. What's far more nefarious is implying their existence is problematic.

And let's be honest, WotC is really just doing this as a smokescreen in an attempt to appease the Twitter mob, and to control the conversation, rather than have people talking about their utterly greed-driven catastrophe with the OGL.



Why do people still care or follow behind D&D even after WotC showed their true colors and how they see the game with the OGL debacle? Why bother to talk about it? Why give a sh*t if WotC is listening to people who, in large part, probablly don't even play their game, and just want to policy stuff?

Less talk=less attention to WotC. The matter should just be left to die altogether.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 07 Apr 2023 17:25:54
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2023 :  23:08:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tanis Multi-elven

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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BrennonGoldeye
Learned Scribe

105 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2023 :  02:12:23  Show Profile Send BrennonGoldeye a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm sorry but people who don't like the reality of halfbreeds are known as a racist where I come from.

Stay away from my half-elves, half-orcs and half-dragons you bunch of full blooded gully dwarves.


Sam
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2023 :  03:21:05  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Half-elves, half-orcs, and half-dragons don't bother me. It's half-humans who disappoint me.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2023 :  06:26:19  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I read that the book will give people the option of mixing any two races -- they're just not presenting these as a separate race any more.

If this is correct, then they're not removing anything -- they're just not focusing on it.

I do like the idea of them giving the option of mixing any races... But I've mixed thoughts on them not detailing half-elves and half-orcs separately.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2023 :  15:22:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was just looking a bit more into this... And it turns out this was addressed in one of their Unearthed Arcana playtest releases months ago.

So they're not giving separate "this is what all half-elves are like" or "this is what all half-orcs are like" -- but they're not removing them, and they EXPLICITLY refer to them as common.

"CHILDREN OF DIFFERENT HUMANOID KINDS
Thanks to the magical workings of the multiverse, Humanoids of different kinds sometimes have children together. For example, folk who have a human parent and an orc or an elf parent are particularly common. Many other combinations are possible.
If you’d like to play the child of such a wondrous pairing, choose two Race options that are Humanoid to represent your parents. Then determine which of those Race options provides your game traits: Size, Speed, and special traits. You can then mix and match visual characteristics—color, ear shape, and the like—of the two options. For example, if your character has a halfling and a gnome parent, you might choose Halfling for your game traits and then decide that your character has the pointed ears that are characteristic of a gnome.
Finally, determine the average of the two options’ Life Span traits to figure out how long your character might live. For example, a child of a halfling and a gnome has an average life span of 288 years."

This is why I prefer to have all the information before reacting. People are getting all bent out of shape and screaming about something entirely non-existent.

And sadly, it's not the first time I've seen that.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Apr 2023 15:23:10
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2023 :  17:35:44  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't mind officially switching out the term "race" to "species" when refering to humans, orcs, dwarves, elves, etc.
I think using race within a species, like dark elves vs high elves vs wood elves seems fine and also more or less correct?

No idea why anyone would think half-elf or half-orc is somehow real-world offensive. It's a human-centric view for Faerun to have instead of calling them half-man I suppose. But since elves and orcs don't exist IRL why would this have real world problems?

I don't understand and think this is a solution in search of a problem.
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2023 :  19:33:13  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So what descriptive will these people be called? Human with other species blood line/heritage or called just human? What of elf and orc parents, will they be called human as well?

From the link: https://archive.is/GLUkZ#selection-889.0-893.204

quote:
However, despite their removal from the Player’s Handbook, Crawford assured players that “If someone wants to play those character options, they’ll still be in D&D Beyond [and] they’ll still be in the 2014 Player’s Handbook”
It should be noted that though players may still be allowed to create Half- characters, thanks to their removal from the core materials, such characters can not be used in an officially-sanctioned event.)


So I guess they are banned from official games and ongoing new official lore (If any) it still leaves for me the questions of how old lore will be effected .

To Seravin, If one considers that it is reported that Russian troops are called orcs by Ukraine troops it can be very easy to see how some game material translates into the RW as a problem.


"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2023 :  19:46:32  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

So what descriptive will these people be called? Human with other species blood line/heritage or called just human? What of elf and orc parents, will they be called human as well?

From the link: https://archive.is/GLUkZ#selection-889.0-893.204

quote:
However, despite their removal from the Player’s Handbook, Crawford assured players that “If someone wants to play those character options, they’ll still be in D&D Beyond [and] they’ll still be in the 2014 Player’s Handbook”
It should be noted that though players may still be allowed to create Half- characters, thanks to their removal from the core materials, such characters can not be used in an officially-sanctioned event.)


So I guess they are banned from official games and ongoing new official lore (If any) it still leaves for me the questions of how old lore will be effected .

To Seravin, If one considers that it is reported that Russian troops are called orcs by Ukraine troops it can be very easy to see how some game material translates into the RW as a problem.



Old lore is never effected, since that's the lore you want to use. I know it's been said over a million times, but it doesn't effect any games that are ongoing. Tell the story however YOU want to tell it.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2023 :  20:38:07  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Where does this leave the inhabitants of the Yuirwood? They're distinctly half-elven as they are able to breed with eachother and produce half-elf children as a distinct species/race.
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HighOne
Learned Scribe

214 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2023 :  04:44:43  Show Profile Send HighOne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Where does this leave the inhabitants of the Yuirwood? They're distinctly half-elven as they are able to breed with eachother and produce half-elf children as a distinct species/race.

Half-elves and half-orcs aren't being removed from the lore, as Wooly said. They just won't exist as mechanically distinct races any more. In other words, if a player wants to play a half-elf, they can; they'll just have to choose between the elf or human statistics for their character.

Personally, I think this change is misguided and wrong, and Crawford's assertion that the "half-construction" is "inherently racist" is inherently ridiculous and harmful. But such are the times we live in. If I could boycott WotC any harder, I would.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2023 :  06:40:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Where does this leave the inhabitants of the Yuirwood? They're distinctly half-elven as they are able to breed with eachother and produce half-elf children as a distinct species/race.



They are entirely unaffected, because the only change is that the books aren't going to say "all half-elf characters fit this particular mold." Look at my post above -- the rules still allow you to build ANY half-type you want; it's just not a template any more.

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