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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2023 :  02:53:05  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
WotC just continues to sh*t on D&D. I had a brief moment of hope when 5e first came out, but that quickly dissipated. They don't care about the authenticity of any setting, and now they have made it clear they don't care about creators or players, either. Capitalism at its finest.

I have been a fan of Critical Role for the past couple of years, but with the OGL debacle, and a bunch of theories about what the cast is going to do, even that has become more stress than fun. I think it's time I said goodbye to anything D&D for a while, and check in at a later date.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2023 :  03:41:02  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

WotC just continues to sh*t on D&D. I had a brief moment of hope when 5e first came out, but that quickly dissipated. They don't care about the authenticity of any setting, and now they have made it clear they don't care about creators or players, either. Capitalism at its finest.

I have been a fan of Critical Role for the past couple of years, but with the OGL debacle, and a bunch of theories about what the cast is going to do, even that has become more stress than fun. I think it's time I said goodbye to anything D&D for a while, and check in at a later date.



That's not necessarily a bad plan. I used to be a big BattleTech fan, until they rushed the end of the FedCom Civil War and then unleashed the Jihad on the setting, and then followed that up with the Dark Ages. I didn't touch anything BattleTech for several years, until I decided to re-read some of my favorite novels. Now that they're focusing on both the Clan Invasion and the ilClan era, I find myself getting back into it -- though not as much as I once was, because the ilClan era still has some ridiculous stuff and is still built on the Jihad/Dark Ages stuff. (It also doesn't help that it seems to be a design directive to just crap all over some of the factions I love)

It feels almost like I'm discovering it again, though, and I dig that.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Jan 2023 03:41:45
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2023 :  03:57:50  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah...even though I have only actually played a few times, D&D has been a big part of my life for years now, but I think I need to put it aside for a while. While I am sad, and I will miss Critical Role, it's also...kind of freeing, in a way. I have other interests, after all, and now I feel I have more time to pursue them (things like D&D and CR take up a lot of time). Anime/manga is my other love, and I feel like I can now devote more time to that, among other things.

Hopefully things turn around and this isn't forever, but for now, I need a break for D&D (of course the movie comes out soon, so I will doubtless be reminded of it lol).

Sweet water and light laughter
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2023 :  04:13:51  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Who is this guy, and where are these reports?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4kGMsZSdbY

The report is at 12:20



Finally sat down to watch this video... And gave up a few minutes into it. I am highly skeptical that the VP of Digital would be surprised by the acquisition of DNDBeyond, and even more skeptical that he'd say "Hey, we just spent a hell of a lot of money to get this thing that does exactly what I want... Let's destroy it so we can build a new one that does the same thing."

I know this D&D Shorts guy also said that no one reads the surveys, but there's been a hell of a lot of WotC people coming forward to say that's not true.

I'm not going to take everything WotC says on faith, of course, especially given their lies about 4E. But I also need more than someone saying "trust me, I've verified this" before I believe them.

I realize it may seem like I'm being difficult and nitpicky, but I'm disinclined to take anyone's statement as truth without some verification, especially when it deals with "insider" information that no one else is getting and that contains real headscratchers like the one above.

I'm not saying the guy is lying, I'm just saying I need more than just one person giving me this info.



He immediately rectfied and publicly aplogized for the mistake, btw.

He also mentioned specific other people being able to verify the info that they all received from the same sources, and those other people--including the likes of Linda Codega, who has reported the OGL 1.1 leak, which they had received from those very sources and has turned out to be 100% spot on--haven't done nothing do deny his claims. Instead, Linda and other YT creators kept saying the same thing.

I understand being skeptical, but immediately dropping what the people who have spearheaded the exposure of 1.1 (while being accurate about WotC's intentions and various details) have to say, is indeed extreme and a bit uncritical. I'd say: listen to the whole 15 mins or so, then decide what you think is believable, and what isn't.

DnDshorts isn't the only one reporting on this. Roll for Combat even had the leaked terms of the "sweetened" contracts WotC was offering to the creators willing to sign 1.1 before Jan 13th.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 25 Jan 2023 04:25:01
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Azar
Master of Realmslore

1279 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2023 :  04:46:53  Show Profile Send Azar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

WotC just continues to sh*t on D&D. I had a brief moment of hope when 5e first came out, but that quickly dissipated. They don't care about the authenticity of any setting, and now they have made it clear they don't care about creators or players, either. Capitalism at its finest.

I have been a fan of Critical Role for the past couple of years, but with the OGL debacle, and a bunch of theories about what the cast is going to do, even that has become more stress than fun. I think it's time I said goodbye to anything D&D for a while, and check in at a later date.



Best of luck. I reside in TSR D&D land; the situation here is sane, by comparison.

Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.

Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2023 :  04:50:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan



I understand being skeptical, but immediately dropping what the people who have spearheaded the exposure of 1.1 (while being accurate about WotC's intentions and various details) have to say, is indeed extreme and a bit uncritical. I'd say: listen to the whole 15 mins or so, then decide what you think is believable, and what isn't.

DnDshorts isn't the only one reporting on this. Roll for Combat even had the leaked terms of the "sweetened" contracts WotC was offering to the creators willing to sign 1.1 before Jan 13th.



How many people are reporting that the VP of Digital didn't know that his company was buying a digital platform and that he wants to piss all that money away by destroying it?

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2023 :  05:41:21  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There comes a point where all the known information has been exposed and explained, where anything else is just speculations or re-runs.

We're still stuck at that point. Until more information becomes available - when Wizbro releases their new license, when somebody else releases their new license, when the old or new licenses get dragged through court, whatever.

I doubt there's much to learn from videos which are re-reporting and re-speculating what's been revealed before. There's just nothing more to say until there's something more to talk about.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Jan 2023 05:42:26
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2023 :  06:02:37  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

How many people are reporting that the VP of Digital didn't know that his company was buying a digital platform and that he wants to piss all that money away by destroying it?




He gives names of people who received the same info. None of them said "yo, this is bullshit, we didn't receive any leaks like that". Roll for Combat also did a commentary on DnDshorts video, and the info they got were the same. Keep in mind that the sources of the leaks are the same group who also leaked 1.1 to Linda Codega. Linda themselves have been given the info in the video too, and they have not said "yo, this is BS" either.

quote:
How can we trust you?

Multiple people have had contact with these sources and can confirm I'm honestly and accurately relating information. Ginny Di, Ted from Nerd Immersion, Treantmonk, and the lawyer Noah Downs have all had access to verify that this material is real. This is a direct recounting of all that I have been sent.


How can we trust these "employees" are who they say they are?

All these employees reached out to me initially over email. Immediately, I ignored those emails, and messaged the person they were claiming to be directly on Linkedin via a burner account I created for this purpose. This was always the first step of verification. Once the person had respoded via Linkedin, I had confirmation that, at the very least, someone with both this person's email address and linkedin profile was getting in touch.

From here I opened communications, and requested additional proof. This involved a direct, face-to-face call, and usually additional contact via the person's social media. When dealing with senior employees, I was also provided internal WotC documentation that verified their position.


How was this information gathered?

I stayed on face-to-face calls with employees usually only for a few minutes to verify their identity. In some cases, we spoke further, but the calls were not recorded.

All the quotes that appear in this video were sent to me via email, whatsapp, or similar IM services. In the interest of protecting the sources, all quotes (with the exception of the quotes on personal experience of the company at the end) have been fed through a syntax paraphraser bot. The employees then checked over these rephrasings to ensure the message they were communicating was still accurate.


Can we trust this information?

It is essential to recognise that all personal accounts come with a human bias. Everything in this video has been checked a verified by multiple employees (unbenknownst to each other). There is no material in this video that comes from only a single source that could not be verified.

Although bias is inevitable in any account from a human, I believe that when multiple people (across multiple departments) are saying the same things, we can put a lot more trust in that information.

However, I'd ask that your remember two things:

1) These employees felt the need to risk their livelihoods to come forward. It is unlikely they would have done so had they not had extremely serious concerns regarding Wizards of the Coast and the OGL. Please bear this in mind when evalutating their comments. Content employees usually don't risk everything to break silence.

2) I am merely representing to the best of my ability what these people have told me. I do not work at Wizards. However, I believe all the information I present in this video to be true. Not only was it verified by multiple people, but it tracks with leaks others have exposed (from insiders I am not in contact with), and explains a great deal of WotC's actions over the last year in a way that WotC's own accounts of their behaviour do not.


What about the source who told you the survey's weren't read?

I failed to accurately represent the information I was given by one source regarding surveys in D&D. I was openly rebbuted by members of the design team on this point. They have said they did, and do, take written survey material into account. I believe them.

I've posted the full thread where I contact the employee who gave me that information to understand where I failed. You can find it on my twitter, and also in the previous video on the channel.

I beleive that person to be honest but I feel I can no longer ask that you trust them. They are not present in this review.


Why are you doing this?

I made a promise to the community and these employees that I would share everything they told me. This video is me completing on that promise. I will not be sharing any leaks anymore. All information will be passed directly to Linda Codega, a real reporter, at Gizmodo.


Will you still cover the OGL?

Yes, I will cover news as it drops from journalists and Wizards of the Coast directly.


What if I don't believe a word you say?

Skepticism is healthy online. You should view all leaks with a healthy level of doubt. I believe I have provided all the evidence I can short of risking compromising the identity of these employees that I am sharing information honestly.

All I ask is, whatever your feelings toward me or this channel, you set them aside to review this information honestly and critically.


On a side note, are you really surprised by lack of communication and incompetenece within a company that went through with ideas so obviously stupid, that led to losses so huge that Bank of America had to warn them that things were going south? Are you really surprised by people, especially entitled higher ups, being obsessed with something they want to do, bulldozing through any reasonable counterargument to act on that something, creating a mess, then being forced to step down, or just move onto another company? AFAIK, it's pretty standard.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 25 Jan 2023 06:03:37
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2023 :  06:05:50  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

There comes a point where all the known information has been exposed and explained, where anything else is just speculations or re-runs.

We're still stuck at that point. Until more information becomes available - when Wizbro releases their new license, when somebody else releases their new license, when the old or new licenses get dragged through court, whatever.

I doubt there's much to learn from videos which are re-reporting and re-speculating what's been revealed before. There's just nothing more to say until there's something more to talk about.



We were discussing a specific video that revealed the leaks about Chris Cao and his plans. The matter is about whether to believe the leakers or not, but given that the leakers have been spot on on almost everything, I'd say their stuff is worth a listen (if you're interested in the tpoic, that is).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2023 :  11:14:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

There comes a point where all the known information has been exposed and explained, where anything else is just speculations or re-runs.

We're still stuck at that point. Until more information becomes available - when Wizbro releases their new license, when somebody else releases their new license, when the old or new licenses get dragged through court, whatever.

I doubt there's much to learn from videos which are re-reporting and re-speculating what's been revealed before. There's just nothing more to say until there's something more to talk about.



We were discussing a specific video that revealed the leaks about Chris Cao and his plans. The matter is about whether to believe the leakers or not, but given that the leakers have been spot on on almost everything, I'd say their stuff is worth a listen (if you're interested in the tpoic, that is).



WotC backed off on the OGL 1.1 because 40,000 people cancelled their DNDBeyond subscriptions. Everything they've said so far has been through DNDBeyond. We know there's a mandate to monetize D&D, and though they've denied a specific price of $30, they've not denied charging way more for DNDBeyond than they currently do.

And DNDBeyond is something the company went out of its way to spend a lot of money on.

Is any of this consistent with having a VP actively trying to destroy DNDBeyond?

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2023 :  16:26:16  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is. The idea is that they want to use Beyond as a gate to their new Sandcastle VTT, which has nothing to do with Beyond, and is their actual project (as far as my understanding goes, this--and the legal effort to harm and erase other creators and VTT--are the things that have eaten their tons of money, not Beyond itself). They'll phase Beyond out once people start moving to the VTT. This is what they mean by "destroying Beyond". Cao wanted it gone before the acquisition, and now that it's been acquired, he wants it gone after Sandcastle is out.

Beyond subscriptions are the gauge that they're using to evaluate the situation. Also, the subscriptions are their main (if not only) current source of income, because their book sales have taken a sharp dip (especially once they announced 6e), and they have warehouses full of unsold books.

But really, this is beyond the point. I've linked the video to you only because you asked me where the report of Cao's bullying was. You have chosen to dismiss the video based on the first minute or so, despite the fact that the leakers who have provided those info have been spot on on the vast majority of the info. Without them, WotC would have been free to pressure/bully creators into signing 1.1 while silencing them with NDAs, the creators would have been left with 0 support from the community in the time they were dealing with WotC's legal bullying, and WotC would have then quietly passed 1.1 without anyone knowing until the end. I think leaks from those people deserve at least to be listened (if you're interested in the topic).
If you're doubting that the info in this video comes from the same people who leaked 1.1, other creators and Linda Codega also confirmed that.

Again, if you're interested, I'd say to give it a listen, then decide what you think is believable and what isn't. Heck, even the person who posted the video says as much. Of course, do as you prefer, but at very least I'll answer your original question that prompted me to link the video: the sources of the report on Cao's bullying are the same people who leaked 1.1.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 25 Jan 2023 16:43:01
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2023 :  17:12:38  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, I chose to not bother watching any more after four minutes because of claims I find very hard to believe -- which I have already stated.

When unbelievable information is presented early in a video, that doesn't bode well for the rest of it.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2023 :  02:04:32  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's what I said: you dismissed the video after the first handful of minutes.

Couple things:

1)You're using two data points to judge a whole body of information that has been spot on on the vast majority of issues (because, as I said, the info in the video is part of the same body of information that leaked 1.1), rather than listening to the whole thing and deciding which info is good, and which doesn't seem trustworthy.

2)The DnDBeyond leak isn't unbelievable, and it follows a simple logic--acquire Beyond because it exploded during the pandemic, thus securing a hold over many people, then phase it out as you shift those people towards Sandcastle. I also don't have that hard of a time believing extreme arrogance, lack of communication, and incompetence/self-defeating behavior being widespread among the higher ups of a company that managed to fall friggin' 40% in a single year, due to mismanagement. In fact, I would have a hard time believing competence to be the norm.

But once again, that's beyond the point. You asked me where the report of Cao's bullying was, I pointed you to it: several WotC employees came out and contacted a bunch of creators and jorunalists to leak 1.1 as well as other insider info. One of them reported on the bullying issue. It might not even be the same person who leaked the Beyond thingy, even though the report is part of the same overall body of info (which, as a remainder, comes from multiple employees who leaked it together), which means that dismissing it a priori is just as uncritical as automatically believing everything.

It's getting tiresome, thoguh. I've already made these points over and over; you're obviously free to believe that Cao&WotC are just greedy and think that their actions aren't harming their own employees as well as the D&D community.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 26 Jan 2023 02:26:10
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2023 :  02:21:07  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, if you just can't believe that Cao was surprised by the acquisition of Beyond, consider that a digital VP wouldn't necessarily be the one handling buying other companies. A quick search on what that role does, returns that it usually plans roadmaps and direction for product development, as well as delivering analysis and reports to the leadership.

It's very easy to imagine a leadership not bothering to tell those "below" them that they decided that the data at hand warranted buying another company, until the deed is done. Cao's original intent might have been to destroy Beyond, but the leadership might have easily considered acquiring it and then phasing it out to be the more advantageous choice. After all, lack of communication (and actively prohibiting communication between certain teams) is another reported problem at WotC.

IMO, you've been too quick to label this as unbelievable.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 26 Jan 2023 02:24:01
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2023 :  02:50:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Also, if you just can't believe that Cao was surprised by the acquisition of Beyond, consider that a digital VP wouldn't necessarily be the one handling buying other companies. A quick search on what that role does, returns that it usually plans roadmaps and direction for product development, as well as delivering analysis and reports to the leadership.

It's very easy to imagine a leadership not bothering to tell those "below" them that they decided that the data at hand warranted buying another company, until the deed is done. Cao's original intent might have been to destroy Beyond, but the leadership might have easily considered acquiring it and then phasing it out to be the more advantageous choice. After all, lack of communication (and actively prohibiting communication between certain teams) is another reported problem at WotC.

IMO, you've been too quick to label this as unbelievable.



He wouldn't have been the one planning the acquisition, but it's simply not believable that a major acquisition of something that would fall under his leadership was planned with him being entirely kept in the dark about it.

I've worked for small companies, and I've worked for large companies. Right now I work for one that is many times the size of WotC. Even small acquisitions, word gets around pretty quick, and long before any official announcement.

Acquisitions are not something that can be kept secret -- there's too many moving parts. Leadership may be the decision makers driving it, but there are teams of lawyers involved, and the finance people will be involved, and HR is going to be involved, and IT will be involved... And VPs are not left out of this. They may not be part of the driving force behind the acquisition, but they're going to be looped in on it, at the very least. They're going to know that it's happening before the offer is even made.

And that especially applies to a VP whose job is going to be affected by the acquisition -- as Chris Cao certainly would have been, in this case. It's exceedingly unlikely that someone in his position wouldn't be consulted, beforehand, even if it was a pro forma consultation after the higher-ups had already decided it was happening.

As I said, I've seen acquisitions while working for companies much smaller than WotC, and I've seen them while working for companies much bigger than WotC. The odds of him not knowing about the DNDBeyond acquisition are somewhere south of my odds of winning the Miss America pageant. And I'm a dude that you most definitely do not want to see in a bikini.

So, as someone who has been involved in acquisitions large and small, and who has read about many others, I am most certainly labeling that claim as unbelievable, and I've got very good reason for doing so.

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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2023 :  05:07:37  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not all companies are so open about their acquisitions. My company only lets the employees know about it on the day that the public announcement is made. All the people involved in the due diligence process are expected to keep it a secret until then. And that is with snapping up 1 to 3 companies a year. I am not sure how we rate in size. We are closing in on 10k employees and revenues are over 1 billion a year.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2023 :  05:38:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Not all companies are so open about their acquisitions. My company only lets the employees know about it on the day that the public announcement is made. All the people involved in the due diligence process are expected to keep it a secret until then. And that is with snapping up 1 to 3 companies a year. I am not sure how we rate in size. We are closing in on 10k employees and revenues are over 1 billion a year.



From what I read online, WotC's revenues are higher than that, and they've got about 1500 employees.

My current job generally doesn't tell the employees about it until it's announced in public -- but the people that are supposed to keep things secret still talk, even if only obliquely. I recall one acquisition, I found out about it months before it was public, because one of the accounting people needed help and said "I've got to get this working as soon as possible because of the acquisition." The person gave no further details, but by asking around, it only took a few days to get the basic info.

But either way, there's simply no way that a VP of a relevant division is going to be excluded. Either they're directly involved or they're kept in the loop because of their position.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Jan 2023 05:39:07
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Ashe Ravenheart
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USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2023 :  11:47:35  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Also, if you just can't believe that Cao was surprised by the acquisition of Beyond, consider that a digital VP wouldn't necessarily be the one handling buying other companies. A quick search on what that role does, returns that it usually plans roadmaps and direction for product development, as well as delivering analysis and reports to the leadership.

It's very easy to imagine a leadership not bothering to tell those "below" them that they decided that the data at hand warranted buying another company, until the deed is done. Cao's original intent might have been to destroy Beyond, but the leadership might have easily considered acquiring it and then phasing it out to be the more advantageous choice. After all, lack of communication (and actively prohibiting communication between certain teams) is another reported problem at WotC.

IMO, you've been too quick to label this as unbelievable.



He wouldn't have been the one planning the acquisition, but it's simply not believable that a major acquisition of something that would fall under his leadership was planned with him being entirely kept in the dark about it.

I've worked for small companies, and I've worked for large companies. Right now I work for one that is many times the size of WotC. Even small acquisitions, word gets around pretty quick, and long before any official announcement.

Acquisitions are not something that can be kept secret -- there's too many moving parts. Leadership may be the decision makers driving it, but there are teams of lawyers involved, and the finance people will be involved, and HR is going to be involved, and IT will be involved... And VPs are not left out of this. They may not be part of the driving force behind the acquisition, but they're going to be looped in on it, at the very least. They're going to know that it's happening before the offer is even made.

And that especially applies to a VP whose job is going to be affected by the acquisition -- as Chris Cao certainly would have been, in this case. It's exceedingly unlikely that someone in his position wouldn't be consulted, beforehand, even if it was a pro forma consultation after the higher-ups had already decided it was happening.

As I said, I've seen acquisitions while working for companies much smaller than WotC, and I've seen them while working for companies much bigger than WotC. The odds of him not knowing about the DNDBeyond acquisition are somewhere south of my odds of winning the Miss America pageant. And I'm a dude that you most definitely do not want to see in a bikini.

So, as someone who has been involved in acquisitions large and small, and who has read about many others, I am most certainly labeling that claim as unbelievable, and I've got very good reason for doing so.

Not that I'm entirely agreeing with TheIriaeban, but given the fact that I'm working for a company that has been acquired (twice, now) and is acquiring others, I can say that it is VERY possible Cao had no idea they were purchasing D&D Beyond.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Ashe Ravenheart
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Posted - 26 Jan 2023 :  11:50:25  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Not all companies are so open about their acquisitions. My company only lets the employees know about it on the day that the public announcement is made. All the people involved in the due diligence process are expected to keep it a secret until then. And that is with snapping up 1 to 3 companies a year. I am not sure how we rate in size. We are closing in on 10k employees and revenues are over 1 billion a year.



From what I read online, WotC's revenues are higher than that, and they've got about 1500 employees.

My current job generally doesn't tell the employees about it until it's announced in public -- but the people that are supposed to keep things secret still talk, even if only obliquely. I recall one acquisition, I found out about it months before it was public, because one of the accounting people needed help and said "I've got to get this working as soon as possible because of the acquisition." The person gave no further details, but by asking around, it only took a few days to get the basic info.

But either way, there's simply no way that a VP of a relevant division is going to be excluded. Either they're directly involved or they're kept in the loop because of their position.

Actually, the $1 billion that WotC made was on Magic: The Gathering. D&D is thought to be bringing in $150 million at this point, and Hasbro wants them to be bringing in $500 million ASAP.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 26 Jan 2023 :  16:01:38  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

Not that I'm entirely agreeing with TheIriaeban, but given the fact that I'm working for a company that has been acquired (twice, now) and is acquiring others, I can say that it is VERY possible Cao had no idea they were purchasing D&D Beyond.



Again, there's simply no way that a VP of a division is going to be excluded from knowing about an acquisition directly affecting that division. Either they're directly involved or they're kept in the loop because of their VP status, along with all the other VPs and divisional presidents.

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Scots Dragon
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Posted - 26 Jan 2023 :  20:08:19  Show Profile Send Scots Dragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

Not that I'm entirely agreeing with TheIriaeban, but given the fact that I'm working for a company that has been acquired (twice, now) and is acquiring others, I can say that it is VERY possible Cao had no idea they were purchasing D&D Beyond.



Again, there's simply no way that a VP of a division is going to be excluded from knowing about an acquisition directly affecting that division. Either they're directly involved or they're kept in the loop because of their VP status, along with all the other VPs and divisional presidents.


This assumes a level of operational competence that we've seen that basically nobody at Wizards of the Coast possesses.

Edited by - Scots Dragon on 26 Jan 2023 20:45:48
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Irennan
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Italy
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Posted - 26 Jan 2023 :  20:49:18  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
snip



Well, we have your work experience saying that it's absolutely not possible, then we have Ashe's experience saying that it is, and the experience of the leakers also saying that it is. Then we have reports saying that lack of communication is a well known problem at WotC, to the point that certain teams are forbidden from communicating with certain other teams. And finally, we know that this company somehow managed to fall down 40% or so in a single year due to mismanagement, which implies that things aren't working like they should.

All I'm saying is that it's not something that a)you can exclude a priori, b)that's absolutely impossible, and c)from which you can evaluate a whole body of info without which we wouldn't even be having this discussion, and that includes the personal experiences of many workers. Moreover, as I've repeated countless times now, the report of Cao's bullying (which is what you have asked me) is the experience of a number of employees.

But as I've said, you're free to do whatever you want with the leaks. At this point I'm just asking you to not discount the experience of people who were forced to leave the company due to some a**hole throwing his weight around--especially when we've received other reports of similar nature (not specifically about Cao) from other people who have worked for WotC.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 26 Jan 2023 20:57:11
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Ashe Ravenheart
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Posted - 26 Jan 2023 :  22:41:54  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

Not that I'm entirely agreeing with TheIriaeban, but given the fact that I'm working for a company that has been acquired (twice, now) and is acquiring others, I can say that it is VERY possible Cao had no idea they were purchasing D&D Beyond.



Again, there's simply no way that a VP of a division is going to be excluded from knowing about an acquisition directly affecting that division. Either they're directly involved or they're kept in the loop because of their VP status, along with all the other VPs and divisional presidents.

I do think it is possible, if that VP isn't well-liked or respected by other VPs or people higher-up the food chain. His background is in video game design and has been building a virtual table top using the Unreal engine to produce a D&D game that looks like a MMORPG. Considering that they have been promising that since before 4th edition (way before his time even), they might be keeping him out of the loop from a lack of progress on the project.

From my own personal experience, just this week we had a major reorganization to the entire company and no one knew except for the couple of people rising in the ranks: not even HR knew about it.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Irennan
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Italy
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Posted - 26 Jan 2023 :  23:26:41  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
if that VP isn't well-liked or respected by other VPs or people higher-up the food chain.



Since WotC's company culture is described as a "good old boys club", where people are often afraid to voice anything, it's honestly likely that there's friction between various teams.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 26 Jan 2023 :  23:49:25  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter really. The inevitable truth is that Dungeons and Dragons is nostalgic for millions around the world...

There will be a rise and fall in popularity...hells, it may even get shelved at some point for a while...but invariably it will be back and there will be those that play it.

It will never be let go by Hasbro...they will put it in a closet first and just bring it out later...so what we think and feel doesn't matter.

Personally, I won't ever buy another "new" D&D product. I will see the movie because it is a fantasy movie that has a couple of actors I happen to like and so on.

The game D&D is never going to be like it used to be. That is why it is the Old Grey Box for me.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2023 :  07:24:02  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hasbro as a company is not doing well.

Its share price is down 30% from a year ago and has been on a consistent decline for about 4 years. At the moment the share price is not much above low point of 54.

With such consistently low share price and with a gloomy outlook for the future, it would not be surprising if Hasbro did not survive the next few years. Even if Hasbro did survive, there is every chance it will have had to sell a number of assets to stay afloat (by which i mean provide mooooorrrrre bonuses for shareholders). In a global recession a company in trouble cannot afford to sit on IP that is not generating revenue, especially when shareholders can sue a company if they do not make them enough profits (i.e. in line with expectations or promises).

In such circumstances it is not unknown for companies to deliberately drive down a share price in order for shareholders to offload their shares to make a quick buck. Often this comes in the form of hiring incompetent directors that are renowned for running companies into the ground. Happened a lot in the 90s, "Run them into the ground Russo" was a more well known example of tech companies.

If this gamble on a DnD new edition and the movie etc does not pay off we could see some unexpected events in the years ahead for DnD. I certainly hope so.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 27 Jan 2023 :  14:34:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another sign of how pissed D&D fans are: Pathfinder sales are surging.

The Tweet linked in the article says "Additionally, we have run through what was an 8-month supply of our Pathfinder Core Rulebook in the last 2 weeks, and demand on our Beginner Boxes is surging too. We have already ordered another print run of the hardcover Core Rulebook, which will arrive in mid-April. "

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Ashe Ravenheart
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Posted - 27 Jan 2023 :  17:05:00  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Another sign of how pissed D&D fans are: Pathfinder sales are surging.

The Tweet linked in the article says "Additionally, we have run through what was an 8-month supply of our Pathfinder Core Rulebook in the last 2 weeks, and demand on our Beginner Boxes is surging too. We have already ordered another print run of the hardcover Core Rulebook, which will arrive in mid-April. "

I can personally attest to this. When they announced the sale for OGL support, I ordered two Beginner Boxes (one for me, one for my library) and they haven't processed to shipping yet.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 27 Jan 2023 :  18:46:09  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Another sign of how pissed D&D fans are: Pathfinder sales are surging.

The Tweet linked in the article says "Additionally, we have run through what was an 8-month supply of our Pathfinder Core Rulebook in the last 2 weeks, and demand on our Beginner Boxes is surging too. We have already ordered another print run of the hardcover Core Rulebook, which will arrive in mid-April. "

I can personally attest to this. When they announced the sale for OGL support, I ordered two Beginner Boxes (one for me, one for my library) and they haven't processed to shipping yet.



Another of their Tweets says "We were inundated with many weeks' worth of orders. We have brought in additional hands to help with shipping, and are working overtime to send you your new print products as quickly as possible. We apologize for longer than normal ship times as we work through the queue."

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Scots Dragon
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Posted - 27 Jan 2023 :  20:25:01  Show Profile Send Scots Dragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So uh...

We might have just won.
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